/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 21 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  21. # [03:17] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2007JulSep/0060.html
  22. # [03:17] <Hixie> someone should probably tell them about <video>
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  27. # [03:35] <doublec> Hixie: definitely
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  45. # [05:14] <Hixie> aa: yt?
  46. # [05:14] <Hixie> crap, i need othermaciej
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  60. # [06:52] <Hixie> grr
  61. # [06:52] * Hixie runs into all sorts of edge cases with the offline storage stuff
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  67. # [07:24] <Hixie> "I'll try to find another way to get an update on design principles draft
  68. # [07:24] <Hixie> status, spec review, issue tracking, and such."
  69. # [07:25] * Hixie doesn't understand what DanC needs that he doesn't get from reading e-mail
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  78. # [09:43] <Lachy> I wonder why the W3C set up member-video instead of public-video
  79. # [09:46] <Lachy> it would probably be a good idea to get some HTMLWG representatives involved in that work
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  81. # [09:55] <Hixie> the summary="" attribute video is interesting
  82. # [09:56] <Hixie> he makes a comment about how he has hit so many sites that use it incorrectly that he just doesn't use it anymore
  83. # [09:57] <Hixie> (stuart does, that is)
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  98. # [12:36] * Hixie mails his latest offline proposal to the list
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  100. # [12:37] <zcorpan> nn Hixie
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  102. # [12:47] <hsivonen> interesting. I'm seeing a bogus YSoD in Gecko on Maemo but not on desktop
  103. # [12:49] <zcorpan> hsivonen: for what page?
  104. # [12:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://planet.intertwingly.net/
  105. # [12:53] <hsivonen> it is even possible that it is my fault (fallout from bug 18333 but fixed on trunk)
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  114. # [14:54] <hsivonen> Does IE6 support .foo.bar combined class selectors? what about IE7?
  115. # [15:00] <gsnedders> hsivonen: IE7 does. IIRC IE6 doesn't
  116. # [15:02] <hsivonen> gsnedders: thanks
  117. # [15:03] <hsivonen> any opinions whether I should flatten my microformat(ish) class names from class='error fatal' and class='error' to class='error-fatal' and class='error'?
  118. # [15:04] <hsivonen> and same on the JSON side
  119. # [15:04] <Lachy> IE6's handling of chained selectors is that it ignores all but the last one. so .foo.bar would match class="foo bar" and class="bar", but not class="foo"
  120. # [15:04] <hsivonen> hmm. in that case I might just about get away with using two class names
  121. # [15:05] <Lachy> yes, if you're careful and put the most important one at the end. So use .error.fatal rather than .fatal.error
  122. # [15:07] <Lachy> though you could just use .fatal by itself since it will be slightly more efficient than .error.fatal
  123. # [15:08] <hsivonen> Lachy: ok. what's your take on putting "type":"error fatal" in JSON and giving semantics to splitting the type on space as opposed to having two fields?
  124. # [15:09] * hsivonen still hasn't found a JSON design pattern guide
  125. # [15:10] <Lachy> or you could do "type":["error", "fatal"]. It depends on how you expect authors to make use of the values.
  126. # [15:11] <Lachy> do you expect authors to be able to use the value as-is in a class name, for example? If so, then it would make sense to use a space separated list
  127. # [15:11] <Lachy> But if you expect that authors will want easier access to the individual values, then the array might be better.
  128. # [15:12] <hsivonen> Lachy: I expect most client developers to merely test the string for identity and I expect angel developers to write proper fallback code when the string doesn't match
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  131. # [15:15] <Lachy> oh, I see, you're attempting to combine the type and subtype properties into one value
  132. # [15:19] <zcorpan> hsivonen: class="error fatal" seems more useful since you won't use "fatal" for other than errors, and you might want to have common styles for all errors
  133. # [15:20] <zcorpan> so style rules like .error {...} .fatal {...} works fine (also in ie6)
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  135. # [15:21] <Lachy> hsivonen, have you seen http://ajaxpatterns.org/Patterns
  136. # [15:22] <Lachy> http://ajaxpatterns.org/JSON_Message
  137. # [15:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok.
  138. # [15:38] <hsivonen> Lachy: I think I haven't read those. thanks
  139. # [15:41] <hsivonen> Lachy: actually, that is one of the pages that presents the use of JSON as an Ajax pattern instead of telling about patterns for designing JSON formats themeselves
  140. # [15:42] <Lachy> ok
  141. # [15:42] <Lachy> well, it was the first search result for "JSON Design Patterns", I didn't read it thoroughly myself
  142. # [15:42] <hsivonen> perhaps JSON is so new that there aren't solid patterns yet
  143. # [15:43] <hsivonen> yeah, I googled for that already
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  147. # [15:58] <aaronlev> hsivonen: i only see one reply to the ARIA thread
  148. # [15:58] <aaronlev> but it is an affirmative in the end
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  150. # [15:59] <aaronlev> is there a weekly call where people discuss stuff like that?
  151. # [15:59] <hsivonen> aaronlev: I think that's a good sign
  152. # [15:59] <aaronlev> ok
  153. # [15:59] <hsivonen> aaronlev: there's an almost weekly telecon but it is canceled this week
  154. # [15:59] <hsivonen> aaronlev: and the telecon attendance doesn't reflect the mailing list
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  156. # [16:00] <aaronlev> ok
  157. # [16:02] <hsivonen> aaronlev: we tried to get rid of "+1" messages, so plain agreement doesn't show
  158. # [16:03] <aaronlev> ah
  159. # [16:03] <aaronlev> yeah because the list is too busy
  160. # [16:03] <aaronlev> to keep up with otherwise
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  181. # [16:49] <hsivonen> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_GNU_Output
  182. # [16:49] <hsivonen> if anyone knows how to solve the issues, please chime in on the wiki. thanks
  183. # [16:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ^
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  187. # [16:56] <Lachy> zcorpan, in your email about ARIA, did you really mean that dojo is using http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2 as the namespace URI, or are they using the namespace URI defined in that spec, http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/ ?
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  189. # [16:56] <Philip`> Mozilla uses both html:role and xhtml2:role in its XUL code
  190. # [16:57] <zcorpan> Lachy: the former
  191. # [16:57] <Philip`> (where xmlns:html="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" and xmlns:xhtml2="http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2")
  192. # [16:57] <zcorpan> Philip`: ouch
  193. # [16:57] <hsivonen> yay, legacy!
  194. # [16:58] * zcorpan was hoping that html:role wouldn't be implemented or used
  195. # [16:58] <Lachy> aargh! I despise dojo even more now
  196. # [16:58] * Lachy wonders why would anyone use a spec URI as a namespace URI???
  197. # [16:59] <gavin> Philip`: that looks like a bug
  198. # [16:59] <Lachy> and it confirms that aria is a real mess :-(
  199. # [16:59] * hsivonen reminds Lachy of the ancient practice of using the uri of the HTML 4 spec as the XHTML 1 namespace URI
  200. # [17:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: more to the point, it confirms that namespaces are a mess
  201. # [17:00] <Lachy> I don't recall that ever happening
  202. # [17:00] <Lachy> but yes, they're a mess too
  203. # [17:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: local names overlive organizational URI choices
  204. # [17:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: oh, it happened
  205. # [17:01] <hsivonen> Lachy: Gecko had the HTML 4 URI built in early on
  206. # [17:01] <hsivonen> Lachy: and MS tools might still emit it somewhere
  207. # [17:01] <Lachy> does it still support it?
  208. # [17:01] <zcorpan> Lachy: http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-xml-names-19990114/ search for "html40"
  209. # [17:01] <hsivonen> Lachy: no
  210. # [17:01] <hsivonen> IIRC
  211. # [17:02] <Philip`> From the Mozilla code, it looks like they accept non-namespaced role attribute starting with 'wairole:' in text/html, or namespaced role attribute in the XHTML or unofficial-XHTML2 namespaces with more complex prefixing rules
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  213. # [17:02] <zcorpan> hmm, opera supports the http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40 namespace
  214. # [17:03] <hsivonen> some of the classes in validator.nu have survived three package name changes...
  215. # [17:03] <Philip`> I found some of those REC-html40 namespaced pages a while ago, since they broke hsivonen's parser
  216. # [17:03] <hsivonen> domain name-based Java package names have the same problems as XML namespaces
  217. # [17:03] <hsivonen> code outlives organizational stewardship
  218. # [17:03] <Philip`> It looked a lot like some version of Word was emitting them
  219. # [17:04] <Lachy> hsivonen, what would you recommend for a namespace identifier other than a URI or the java like syntax?
  220. # [17:05] <hsivonen> Lachy: the well-known name of the language
  221. # [17:05] <Philip`> A UUID
  222. # [17:05] <hsivonen> Lachy: e.g. xml, atom, aria, xbl, svg
  223. # [17:06] <Lachy> makes sense.
  224. # [17:06] <hsivonen> Lachy: where those who pick the name are informed of what's already out there
  225. # [17:06] <Lachy> though the (possibly theoretical) problem that the URI solves is what happens when 2 languages share the same name?
  226. # [17:06] <hsivonen> Lachy: like if you are inventing a new binary format, you should probably consult file(1) for taken magic numbers
  227. # [17:07] * Quits: [1]aroben (n=aroben@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Connection timed out)
  228. # [17:07] <Philip`> What about people developing private technologies that are not out there and that need to interact with other private technologies that are not out there?
  229. # [17:07] <hsivonen> Lachy: somehow, magic numbers have worked fine most of the time (since the seventies?)
  230. # [17:07] <Lachy> yeah, I suppose magic numbers work reasonably well for binary formates
  231. # [17:07] <hsivonen> Philip`: I though this was about Web formats ;-)
  232. # [17:08] <hsivonen> anyway, baking in the name of a private company sucks
  233. # [17:08] <hsivonen> when you try to advance the tech to IEFT, OASIS or the W3C
  234. # [17:08] * Joins: [1]aroben (n=aroben@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  235. # [17:08] <hsivonen> or, worse, first advance to OASIS and then to ISO
  236. # [17:09] <Philip`> I guess the idea with XHTML is that web formats benefit from sharing tools and ideas with what's widely used outside the web, hence universally-unique namespaces and stuff
  237. # [17:09] * hsivonen waves to the ECMA team who has to deal with ISO comments on having microsoft.com namespaces in OOXML
  238. # [17:12] * hsivonen points out that the old Mac OS did fine with 4-letter type codes for a couple of decades
  239. # [17:13] <Philip`> http://lxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/toolkit/components/feeds/src/FeedProcessor.js#1495 - "// Thanks for QNames in content, W3C // This will even be a perf hit for every single feed" - they don't sound too happy
  240. # [17:13] <Lachy> yeah, well, it seems far too late to fix namespaces now.
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  243. # [17:14] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/GUI/roleTaxonomy-20060508.html - hmm, a .bmp image? That doesn't seem very standard
  244. # [17:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: it isn't too late to oppose to qNames in content, though, whenever someone suggests that something new should use that anti-pattern
  245. # [17:18] <Lachy> hsivonen, of course, qnames in content should be banned
  246. # [17:18] * hsivonen once interviewed for a job that involved an XML language that had stuff that looked like qNames in content but wasn't
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  249. # [17:22] * zcorpan points out that xbl2 has qnames in content
  250. # [17:22] <zcorpan> effectively
  251. # [17:22] <Lachy> for selectors, yeah
  252. # [17:23] <Lachy> but that's ok because it's just using xmlns as the namespace declaration mechanism, instead of @namespace or something new
  253. # [17:24] <Lachy> XSLT does a similar thing e.g. <template match="x:p"> where xmlns:x="..." is defined somewhere
  254. # [17:25] <zcorpan> yeah
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  256. # [17:25] <Lachy> so I guess they're acceptable uses of qname-like features in content
  257. # [17:26] * zcorpan heads over to get some friday beer
  258. # [17:26] <Lachy> CURIE's, on the other hand, are not acceptable uses.
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  302. # [18:42] <aaronlev> hsivonen: still there?
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  320. # [19:09] <annevk> aaronlev, hey, it seems that the standards are not really helping here :(
  321. # [19:09] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  322. # [19:10] <annevk> this role= stuff is getting pretty insane just to please some WG members
  323. # [19:10] <aaronlev> annevk: just the fact that it accepts qnames?
  324. # [19:10] <hsivonen> aaronlev: I'm back now
  325. # [19:10] <aaronlev> annevk: my point is we can deprecate that later, it's not as urgent
  326. # [19:10] <aaronlev> we can open a discussion on it
  327. # [19:10] <aaronlev> it's just hard to do everything at once, right?
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  329. # [19:11] <aaronlev> we've gotten pretty far since last year when html 5 was just for outsiders
  330. # [19:11] <annevk> aaronlev, well, not only that, but also role= in some weird XHTML2 namespace
  331. # [19:11] * Joins: [1]aroben (n=aroben@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  332. # [19:11] <annevk> yeah, I regret not having paid more attention to it now
  333. # [19:11] <aaronlev> annevk: i see an acceptance that the w3c is moving to html 5
  334. # [19:11] <aaronlev> it just takes time for everyone to "Get it"
  335. # [19:12] <aaronlev> plus i think html folks need to figure out a strategy for svg
  336. # [19:12] <aaronlev> or is *Everything* supposed to be html
  337. # [19:12] <annevk> the main problem I have with "deprecate" is that it's not entirely clear to me how it affects the Firefox code base (and that of other browsers)
  338. # [19:12] <annevk> (if it's not actually going to be removed it might only increase as such to issue warnings etc. to developers which doesn't seem very helpful)
  339. # [19:12] * Joins: [3]aroben (n=aroben@c-67-160-250-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  340. # [19:13] <hsivonen> I don't really believe that we can ever deprecate anything in a way that would actually allow UAs to drop stuff
  341. # [19:13] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@STRATTON-FIVE-SIXTEEN.MIT.EDU)
  342. # [19:13] <aaronlev> annevk: i don't see it as an issue because almost everyone is going to be using this in html
  343. # [19:13] <aaronlev> they can't use the namespaces anyway
  344. # [19:13] <annevk> well, it still needs to be tested and implemented correctly
  345. # [19:14] <annevk> if there was no cost attached it would be fine, but the number of possible combinations you can have right now is huge
  346. # [19:14] <annevk> which makes interoperability a lot harder
  347. # [19:14] <hsivonen> Lachy: what makes qNames in content semi-bearable in XSLT is that you are assumed to compile a stream of SAX events into a representation of a transformation
  348. # [19:14] <hsivonen> Lachy: you aren't supposed to do live DOM modifications
  349. # [19:15] <annevk> as for SVG, I'm not sure why people would want to write applications directly in that format; seems like transferring a bunch of <font> elements over the wire
  350. # [19:15] <hsivonen> Lachy: but it seems that imitating XSLT is what gave us qNames in content elsewhere
  351. # [19:15] <annevk> then again, this may be what people want
  352. # [19:15] <annevk> ...
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  355. # [19:16] <aaronlev> annevk: then why does opera have such good svg support? :)
  356. # [19:16] <hsivonen> and qNames in content as such would not be quite as bad if the DOM captured the namespace mapping scope on a per-Element basis at node creation time and had methods for getting qName values as ns,local pairs
  357. # [19:17] <hsivonen> aaronlev: my vision regarding SVG is that we should extend the HTML5 parsing algorithm to do the right namespace magic for subtrees rooted at <svg> (and <math>)
  358. # [19:18] <hsivonen> aaronlev: (though SVG is harder than MathML due to camelCaps and xlink:href)
  359. # [19:19] <aaronlev> hsivonen: i guess, i find that to get rid of qnames, the larger political issue is in my way
  360. # [19:19] <aaronlev> i've had to straddle the 2 worlds for a while
  361. # [19:20] <aaronlev> i feel people are coming around to the html 5 wg
  362. # [19:20] <aaronlev> but are scared of the size and don't know how to deal wit hthat
  363. # [19:20] <hsivonen> aaronlev: yeah, I realize that. I'm just noting that I don't really believe deprecation later solves anything.
  364. # [19:20] <aaronlev> and i think they still hang on to belief in namespaces
  365. # [19:20] <aaronlev> hsivonen: no one is going to want to use namespaces if they don't have to anyway
  366. # [19:20] <hsivonen> aaronlev: Gecko and others will still have to support content that gets authored to Gecko as of Firefox 3
  367. # [19:20] <aaronlev> yeah but it's not expensive to support qnames for roles
  368. # [19:21] <aaronlev> it doesn't hurt us
  369. # [19:21] <aaronlev> i'm just prioritizing the fixes that i have to squeeze in before ff3 release first
  370. # [19:21] <aaronlev> if i get those in and can breathe again
  371. # [19:21] <aaronlev> then we can tackle this qname issue, but it brings up a lot o other issues people have
  372. # [19:21] <aaronlev> and old divisions
  373. # [19:21] <hsivonen> sure, I'm not suggesting unsupporting qNames at this point. I just don't believe you'll be able to unsupport them ever
  374. # [19:22] <aaronlev> oh ok, i think ff will proably still support them but the docs can say it's not the preferred way
  375. # [19:22] <annevk> that doesn't help anybody I'm afraid :(
  376. # [19:22] <aaronlev> annevk: it helps a lot -- authors don'[t have to use them
  377. # [19:22] <aaronlev> it's not expensive code at all, a couple of lines really
  378. # [19:22] <aaronlev> so what's the big deal
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  380. # [19:23] <aaronlev> i mean it's not expensive in the user agent to allow the qname role values
  381. # [19:23] <annevk> sorry, I agree that it helps to simplify things
  382. # [19:23] <annevk> I don't agree that it helps to deprecate things but don't actually change the code as well
  383. # [19:24] <aaronlev> annevk: if you can get chaals to advocate for it, soon, in pf
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  385. # [19:24] <aaronlev> but we have to open up a huge discussion then
  386. # [19:24] <aaronlev> and i reallyu don't believe pf wants that right now, we're on the march to get aria 1.0 out the door
  387. # [19:24] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  388. # [19:24] <hsivonen> If we get to the point of tackling SVG and MathML in text/html, we should probably introduce namespaceless aria-foo attributes on SVG and MathML elements at that point
  389. # [19:25] <aaronlev> hsivonen: good point
  390. # [19:25] <aaronlev> i haven't thought of a use case for aira in mathml
  391. # [19:25] <aaronlev> but i haven't thought that hard
  392. # [19:25] <aaronlev> interactive math of some kind
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  394. # [19:27] <aaronlev> annevk: some folks in pf are still trying to hold on to the idea of using rdf to define roles
  395. # [19:27] <aaronlev> that authors could define new ones that way
  396. # [19:27] <annevk> right...
  397. # [19:27] <aaronlev> i wrote about it in the faq
  398. # [19:27] <aaronlev> the qname points to the role definition on the web
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  400. # [19:28] <aaronlev> but everyone agrees this is aria 2.0 or whatever
  401. # [19:28] <annevk> you'd think the accessibility folks realize that authors don't get complex stuff (see longdesc)... but then they go ahead and use RDF!
  402. # [19:28] <hsivonen> afk
  403. # [19:28] <aaronlev> some of the a11y folks involved in standards love that kind of crap
  404. # [19:29] <aaronlev> it does have 1 gigantic advantage over xbl
  405. # [19:29] <annevk> yeah, but that doesn't make it practical :(
  406. # [19:29] <aaronlev> i'm not arguing for it
  407. # [19:29] <aaronlev> the chances of all browser manufacturers having XBL support is like, zero
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  409. # [19:30] <aaronlev> the big content developers do what some kind of capability like this
  410. # [19:30] <annevk> I'm not sure why the chances are different from them supporting something else
  411. # [19:30] <aaronlev> let's just take IE as an example, not sure why i would do that
  412. # [19:30] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L815b.l.pppool.de)
  413. # [19:31] <aaronlev> if they don't support ARIA, it doesn't kill ARIA usage --because the pages don't render any differently in IE
  414. # [19:31] <aaronlev> so users that need it to be accessible use firefox or opera instead
  415. # [19:31] <aaronlev> same with the custom roles
  416. # [19:31] <aaronlev> if IE doesn't support it, no big deal, there's another free browser that does
  417. # [19:31] <aaronlev> but with XBL it's different
  418. # [19:31] <aaronlev> you're defining your whole widget in XBL, which is cool
  419. # [19:31] <aaronlev> but the page simply won't work in IE at all
  420. # [19:31] <aaronlev> therefore no one will use it
  421. # [19:32] <annevk> that's not really how XBL is designed, but I see your point
  422. # [19:32] <aaronlev> what do you mean?
  423. # [19:32] <annevk> XBL is an optional language
  424. # [19:32] <aaronlev> unless it's a lot different from how XBL works in mozila
  425. # [19:32] <annevk> like CSS
  426. # [19:32] <annevk> XBL2 anyway
  427. # [19:33] <aaronlev> what good is it as an option, if the widgets i designed in it will only work in a couple borwsers
  428. # [19:33] <aaronlev> with Javascript my widgets even work in IE
  429. # [19:33] <annevk> XBL is implemented in JS at least partially
  430. # [19:33] <annevk> I'm sure people will make that work in IE in some way as well
  431. # [19:33] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  432. # [19:33] <aaronlev> yes but IE won't go fetch the JS definition
  433. # [19:34] <aaronlev> annevk: if that's the case, then XBL would be by far the best solution
  434. # [19:34] <annevk> the page will just point to it, similar to how <canvas> works in IE today
  435. # [19:34] <aaronlev> it works in ie?
  436. # [19:36] <annevk> http://code.google.com/p/explorercanvas/
  437. # [19:37] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html - it only works correctly in fairly trivial cases
  438. # [19:38] <aaronlev> wow
  439. # [19:38] <aaronlev> i wish i had time to read how that works
  440. # [19:38] <annevk> Web Forms 2 has also been made to work in IE
  441. # [19:39] <annevk> most of HTML5 can be implemented in IE in one way or another, although not always optimally of course and it would be far better if they started doing some stuff
  442. # [19:39] <Philip`> ExplorerCanvas mostly works by building up VML strings, which IE can render
  443. # [19:39] <aaronlev> Philip`: ah
  444. # [19:40] <aaronlev> i can't find any canvas example in there that does curvy lines or something
  445. # [19:40] <aaronlev> annevk: that's the part that scares me
  446. # [19:40] <aaronlev> i've never seen one of these middleman IE things get used widely
  447. # [19:41] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  448. # [19:41] <aaronlev> i mean, it needs to be something that companies like Yahoo and IBM are willing to base their stuff on
  449. # [19:41] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@Lb1b9.l.pppool.de)
  450. # [19:41] <aaronlev> i order for it to relevant to the accessible extended widgets discussion
  451. # [19:41] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/curve.html has curvy lines and I think it works in IE
  452. # [19:42] <annevk> aaronlev, Y! has used that plugin actually on Y! Pipes
  453. # [19:43] <annevk> or, they're using <canvas> on Y! Pipes, not sure what they do with IE
  454. # [19:43] <aaronlev> annevk: you know what i mean
  455. # [19:43] <aaronlev> large scale stuff tends not to want to use these things
  456. # [19:43] <aaronlev> it's never quite good enough for some reason or another
  457. # [19:43] <aaronlev> i suspect XBL in IE would be the same
  458. # [19:43] <hsivonen> annevk: if XBL becomes successful, it'll be "optional" to entering into the market the same way CSS was "optional" for Apple
  459. # [19:44] <annevk> aaronlev, http://pipes.yahoo.com/pipes/pipe.info?_id=gOkiTeFS3BGRTwZy8ivLAg uses excanvas for instance
  460. # [19:46] <aaronlev> annevk: i'm skeptical any big org wil change their strategy based on an exXBL library
  461. # [19:46] <aaronlev> but i could be proven wrong
  462. # [19:46] <aaronlev> i just don't see google using it in something like google office
  463. # [19:47] <aaronlev> that kind of thing, where you have tons of widgets
  464. # [19:47] <aaronlev> and it all is already brittle enough
  465. # [19:47] <aaronlev> that's where you need the custom widgets to be accessible
  466. # [19:49] <annevk> if you see the amount of code Joel Spolsky is talking about a simple wrapper for XBL would not be too much code :)
  467. # [19:50] <annevk> anyway, I agree it's a problem if a browser with a lot of market share stops implementing, hopefully that doesn't happen
  468. # [19:51] <aaronlev> annevk: when have they started implementing?
  469. # [19:51] <aaronlev> we can't rely on anything being implemented, because it 90% won't be
  470. # [19:53] <aaronlev> XBL heaven is proably not going happen, i'm sorry, because i would love it to happen
  471. # [19:55] <annevk> you're saying the web will just stay like it is now for the coming 20 years?
  472. # [19:55] <annevk> (in terms of stuff you can use)
  473. # [19:55] * annevk doesn't really believe in that
  474. # [19:55] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L815b.l.pppool.de) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  475. # [19:56] <aaronlev> annevk: who cares abouit 20 years from now?
  476. # [19:57] <annevk> I do
  477. # [19:57] <annevk> HTML5 is not exactly short term stuff
  478. # [19:58] <aaronlev> ok
  479. # [19:59] <aaronlev> well, web 2.0 or whatever people want to call it is already underway
  480. # [19:59] <aaronlev> so, yes, ideally i would love xbl to help out with a11y
  481. # [19:59] <aaronlev> but lots of standards have come and gone
  482. # [19:59] <aaronlev> don't get me wrong, i'm the biggest xbl proponent in pf
  483. # [19:59] <hsivonen> XBL needs a killer app that is so cool it can bootstrap business even if only two of top four browser work with it
  484. # [20:00] <aaronlev> i love using it -- i've done a lot of work with it in mozilla
  485. # [20:00] <hsivonen> kinda like Google Maps made Opera and Apple implement XHR
  486. # [20:00] <aaronlev> right, but who is going to bootrtrap their business with a technology that cuts out most of their markeshare
  487. # [20:00] <aaronlev> cutting out opera and apple is one thing
  488. # [20:01] <aaronlev> but cutting out ie, uh, no new business does that
  489. # [20:02] <annevk> to early to tell whether or not IE will implement
  490. # [20:02] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  491. # [20:03] <annevk> (and there's the aforementioned library solution)
  492. # [20:03] <hsivonen> I think it isn't quite that bleak. Just like Macs are the "top 6%" (or whatever the figure was) and that's enough for some desktop apps, hopefully for the XBL killer app, Firefox, Safari and Opera are the top 20%
  493. # [20:05] * annevk wonders if Julian Reschke on public-webapi uses the tactic that if you keep saying it enough times it will become true :)
  494. # [20:05] * Joins: briansuda (n=briansud@194-144-106-194.du.xdsl.is)
  495. # [20:06] <aaronlev> but xbl can't do anything that you cant' do with dojo
  496. # [20:07] <aaronlev> or plain javascript or some other js toolkit
  497. # [20:08] <aaronlev> annevk: well if it is too early to tell if they will implement it, that means you can't rely on it for a strategy now if you need something now
  498. # [20:08] <annevk> hmm, html4all is discussing whether my blog is valid and whether I care about standards... fun
  499. # [20:08] <aaronlev> maybe we can convince everyone they don't need extended widgets yet, and that it's worth waiting to see
  500. # [20:08] <aaronlev> but i think they'll be waiting for a long time
  501. # [20:08] <aaronlev> fun
  502. # [20:09] <annevk> short term there's nothing you can really rely on
  503. # [20:09] <aaronlev> yes there is
  504. # [20:09] <aaronlev> javascript
  505. # [20:09] <annevk> not if you want it to be accessible too
  506. # [20:09] <aaronlev> javacsript +aria
  507. # [20:09] <annevk> hmm
  508. # [20:09] <aaronlev> or dojo
  509. # [20:11] <annevk> html4all people, hi!, my page has 4 errors because it uses Web Forms 2 features that supposedly improve usability in browsers that support said features
  510. # [20:11] <annevk> html4all people, at some point I'll change the doctype to <!doctype html>, but it doesn't really matter much
  511. # [20:12] <annevk> actually, I'll change the doctype of that page
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  513. # [20:13] <aaronlev> hsivonen: xbl would have to provide some new functionality you can't get already with dojo
  514. # [20:13] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  515. # [20:13] <aaronlev> in order to make up for the huge market share of non-xbl browsers, otherwise no killer app will happen
  516. # [20:14] <aaronlev> sorry, i don't mean to be pedantic
  517. # [20:15] <aaronlev> does html 5 have anything like cc/pp?
  518. # [20:15] <aaronlev> if you want to communicate client capabilities better
  519. # [20:16] <hsivonen> aaronlev: true.
  520. # [20:17] <hsivonen> aaronlev: capability sniffing that is based on the UA stating its own capabilities is considered doomed
  521. # [20:17] <annevk> hsivonen, heh, changing the doctype doesn't help much: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fannevankesteren.nl%2F2007%2F09%2Falt
  522. # [20:18] <aaronlev> hsivonen: why?
  523. # [20:18] <aaronlev> hsivonen: is there a good article?
  524. # [20:18] <hsivonen> aaronlev: there's a risk of accidental errors as well as an incentive to lie
  525. # [20:18] <annevk> (those are all bugs in the validator as far as I can tell)
  526. # [20:18] <aaronlev> so what's the big deal if the ua lies about being, say, a screen reader
  527. # [20:19] <hsivonen> aaronlev: otoh, if you exercise the feature you want to sniff for, you are more likely to get the right answer
  528. # [20:19] <aaronlev> i see
  529. # [20:19] <aaronlev> i guess there are some folks that want to use it in the learning space, it's crazy researchy stuff that's far out
  530. # [20:20] <aaronlev> but i need to have an answer
  531. # [20:20] <aaronlev> for educational content, they want to be able to express a lot about the user and their prefs/capabilities
  532. # [20:20] <hsivonen> aaronlev: the big deal is this: browser A supports features foo and bar that are coupled as foobar. Part foo becomes part of a killer app from company G. Browser B implements support for only foo, not bar, but lies and claims support for foobar in order to get the killer app working
  533. # [20:20] <aaronlev> and change the content accordigly
  534. # [20:21] <hsivonen> result: asking for foobar support gives you the wrong answer if you want to use bar
  535. # [20:21] <aaronlev> right, but for user preferences that might not be an issue
  536. # [20:21] <aaronlev> makes sense for capabilities
  537. # [20:22] <annevk> hmm, accept-language and such is often wrong
  538. # [20:22] <annevk> which is something that depends on the user
  539. # [20:22] <annevk> (in theory, anyway)
  540. # [20:22] <hsivonen> annevk: hmm. interesting error messages...
  541. # [20:23] <annevk> yeah
  542. # [20:23] <annevk> totally weird
  543. # [20:23] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  544. # [20:25] <annevk> I think it might be because of the "http:http://asbjornu.myopenid.com/" value for href=
  545. # [20:25] <annevk> that fixes at one message
  546. # [20:26] <annevk> not sure what the problem is with the other two, although I think you might not allow the empty string for type=url
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  548. # [20:31] <hsivonen> annevk: cool. at least one of the messages was useful ;-)
  549. # [20:31] <annevk> in a way :)
  550. # [20:32] <annevk> that it pointed hilited rel=nofollow didn't really help :)
  551. # [20:32] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm not stopping what I'm doing right now, but I intend to fix the two other errors soonish
  552. # [20:32] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, that's what I'm fixing now
  553. # [20:33] <hsivonen> getting showing the source right isn't a small thing
  554. # [20:33] <hsivonen> so far, I've doubled the number of classes in the validator subrepo...
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  570. # [21:45] <Philip`> Blending rgba(0,255,0,0.5) on top of rgba(0,255,0,1) gives dark green, in APNG with default gamma, which is annoying because it means I'll have to learn how gamma works
  571. # [21:47] <Philip`> ...although I'm not convinced it actually should give dark green
  572. # [21:47] <Philip`> but it does in both Firefox and Opera
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  580. # [22:04] <Hixie> wow, 2.1% of pages using accesskey="" is a lot
  581. # [22:05] <annevk> all my weblog pages used it until a few hours back
  582. # [22:05] * Joins: om_sleep__ (n=mjs@17.255.101.95)
  583. # [22:05] <Hixie> heh
  584. # [22:05] * annevk had accesskey=1 for home and accesskey=9 for contact
  585. # [22:06] <annevk> which are not all that useful I think
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  587. # [22:07] <Hixie> i'm not really all that convinced access keys are that useful in general, but that's just me
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  589. # [22:07] <Hixie> (in particular it seems obvious to me that the touch model of the iPhone is the way visual browsing should work when you don't have a mouse)
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  591. # [22:09] <annevk> I think chaals wants to make it some kind of "this link is more important than others" hint
  592. # [22:09] <annevk> but I'm not entirely sure that's a correct representation
  593. # [22:10] <Hixie> importance can be indicated using <strong>
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  595. # [22:10] <annevk> I guess
  596. # [22:11] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  597. # [22:13] <tantek> Hixie, access keys are quite an accelerant for editing/previewing/saving wiki pages. It makes it "feel" much more like a "real" text editor.
  598. # [22:13] <Hixie> i wonder how long i should wait for feedback on the latest offline proposal
  599. # [22:13] <Hixie> tantek: ah
  600. # [22:14] <tantek> specifically, MediaWiki installs, e.g. Wikipedia.org, and pbwiki.com have consistent editing accesskeys
  601. # [22:14] <tantek> on a Mac, ctrl-E to edit, ctrl-P to preview, ctrl-S to save.
  602. # [22:15] <tantek> but this may be a specific instance, and your comment about *in general* may still be correct.
  603. # [22:20] <Philip`> (Oh, whoops, I was being stupid and using premultiplied alpha in the APNG which means my expectation was completely wrong...)
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  606. # [22:41] <hsivonen> annevk: I get timeouth when connecting to your site
  607. # [22:41] <hsivonen> timeouts even
  608. # [22:43] <annevk> wfm, although it's somewhat slow
  609. # [22:46] <hsivonen> annevk: well, my timouts are quite reasonable considering other sites
  610. # [22:48] <annevk> avg ping is 161.354ms
  611. # [22:50] <hsivonen> ok. not it responded in less than 5 seconds
  612. # [22:51] <hsivonen> I now have range start guessing code, but it appears to be very broken
  613. # [22:51] <hsivonen> (the ranges start far too early)
  614. # [22:51] <hsivonen> will debug tomorrow
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  629. # [23:52] <gsnedders> really odd semantics question: if I'm calling two girls that I loved "her", how do I stress the importance of the "her", and note that they are different people?
  630. # [23:52] <gsnedders> far harder to do semantically than it is to do visually
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  633. # [23:58] <gsnedders> oh, and with something like http://script.geoffers.uni.cc/node/9, how would I offset the actual poem from the introduction? should I treat it as a quote of something I wrote elsewhere, or…?
  634. # [23:58] * Joins: BenWard (n=BenWard@cpc3-cmbg2-0-0-cust58.cmbg.cable.ntl.com)
  635. # [23:59] <gsnedders> (the last link includes some profanity, actually)
  636. # Session Close: Sat Sep 22 00:00:00 2007

The end :)