/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 22 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-a889587746a3dc48)
  4. # [00:03] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@86.90.70.28)
  5. # [00:09] <jgraham_> gsnedders: I don't understand the first question. "Calling two girls that I loved her" is giving me a parse error...
  6. # [00:10] <gsnedders> jgraham_: can you enter HTML mode, so we don't have draconian errors? :)
  7. # [00:11] <jgraham_> s/calling/{something}/ maybe?
  8. # [00:11] <Hixie> othermaciej: any input on the latest proposal? (just a quick read followed by a "looks good" or a "i have comments that i'll send later" would be fine)
  9. # [00:11] <gsnedders> jgraham_: I have a long standing tradition of calling any girl that I like "her" on IRC, with different markers around the names, e.g., _her_ and *her*. how could I use "her" and make it clear that it is important (thereby |strong|) without mixing up different people
  10. # [00:11] <Hixie> (just need to know whether i should start writing it up or not)
  11. # [00:12] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm in a meeting that will be over momentarily and then I'll do a quick scan
  12. # [00:12] <Hixie> excellent, thanks
  13. # [00:12] <Hixie> by the way, you need to work on being in fewer meetings.
  14. # [00:12] <gsnedders> (don't ask here that naming convention comes from, it's a long story)
  15. # [00:12] <Hixie> i swear you're always in a meeting where i ping you :-)
  16. # [00:12] <othermaciej> Hixie: I sure do
  17. # [00:12] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Oh, I see.
  18. # [00:13] <othermaciej> that's what I get for being promoted to my level of incompetence
  19. # [00:13] <Hixie> no comment
  20. # [00:13] <gsnedders> :D
  21. # [00:13] <gsnedders> ergh. I want a parent selector in CSS.
  22. # [00:13] <Hixie> don't we all
  23. # [00:13] <Hixie> :matches() baby
  24. # [00:14] <gsnedders> I want something like p < cite { text-align: right; }
  25. # [00:14] <annevk> p:matches($>cite) { text-align:right }
  26. # [00:14] <Hixie> or p:has(>cite) { text-align: right; }
  27. # [00:14] <jgraham_> gsnedders: I think the answer is "use surrounding context to differentiate the two people". Although that might not go down well with some members of public-html who don't believe in context
  28. # [00:14] <Hixie> though in this case it doesn't really improve much
  29. # [00:15] <gsnedders> if only there was a block level cite element :P
  30. # [00:15] <deltab> gsnedders: why not use the same convention?
  31. # [00:16] <gsnedders> jgraham_: if you read two posts of mine, one from last year, the other from this, you could end up thinking they were the same person
  32. # [00:16] <aa> it stinks that xpath and css are different
  33. # [00:16] <Hixie> just use <p class="cite"><cite> ... </cite></p> and then set .cite cite { display: block; }
  34. # [00:16] <Hixie> or some such
  35. # [00:16] <Philip`> p.parent-of-cite { text-align: right; } <script>for each (var c in document.getElementsByTagName('cite')) c.parentNode.className += ' parent-of-cite'</script>
  36. # [00:16] <Hixie> ah if only you could enumerate NodeLists
  37. # [00:16] <gsnedders> jgraham_: (which is further complicated by the fact that I have gone on about people for over a year)
  38. # [00:16] <gsnedders> Hixie: I already use such a thing
  39. # [00:17] <Hixie> good good
  40. # [00:17] <gsnedders> just annoying :P
  41. # [00:17] * gsnedders is going to end up with an insane number of posts tagged "lust" merging all his blogs into one
  42. # [00:17] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Isn't language wonderful. Also why do you need <cite>? Are you expecting anything special from UAs?
  43. # [00:18] <gsnedders> jgraham_: or, more just using it as a styling hook :P
  44. # [00:18] <gsnedders> s/or/oh/
  45. # [00:18] <deltab> gsnedders: use different fonts for different people
  46. # [00:18] <gsnedders> deltab: that only helps in visual UAs
  47. # [00:18] <Philip`> Or different colours
  48. # [00:19] * Joins: om_sleep (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-9f63c92f1f91c9ea)
  49. # [00:19] <gsnedders> (I'm currently using underlining/bold/etc for visual UAs, and using |strong| for all)
  50. # [00:19] <gsnedders> thereby relying on context for non-visual UAs
  51. # [00:20] * jgraham_ wonders if <cite> has a compelling usecase
  52. # [00:20] <Philip`> You could have her<sub>1</sub> and her<sub>2</sub>
  53. # [00:21] <gsnedders> Philip`: I thought of that… If I do that, do I start with him<sub>1</sub> or him<sub>3</sub> though?
  54. # [00:21] <jgraham_> him<sub>3</sub> is futureproff against sex change operations
  55. # [00:22] <Philip`> That depends on whether you are talking about anyone who is likely to change gender, because that would cause conflicts if you had two distinct numbering systems
  56. # [00:22] <gsnedders> I didn't even think of it in that way…
  57. # [00:23] * gsnedders wonders whether any of his ex-bfs would ever have a sex change operation
  58. # [00:24] <jgraham_> Or you could go URI happy and do <a href="http://geoffers.uni.cc/people/girls/1">her</a>
  59. # [00:25] <jgraham_> The resources at the end of the link would be RDF I guess
  60. # [00:25] <Philip`> People can start thinking of themselves as "she" without having an actual operation, and then maybe switch back to "he" a while later, so you can get namespace collisions even if the people involved don't do anything drastic
  61. # [00:25] * gsnedders sighs
  62. # [00:25] * Joins: om_sleep_ (n=mjs@17.255.101.95)
  63. # [00:25] <gsnedders> meaning monosexual would probably simplify this
  64. # [00:25] <gsnedders> s/mea/be/
  65. # [00:26] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.101.95) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  66. # [00:26] <Philip`> (I tend to avoid using pronouns in that case, so I don't have to decide which one to apply to the person, which isn't actually too difficult)
  67. # [00:26] <gsnedders> I'd use their names, but I'm too secretive about my private life to use names
  68. # [00:27] <ozamosi> But names aren't unique either...
  69. # [00:27] <ozamosi> (usually)
  70. # [00:27] <Philip`> You could use the SHA-1 of their name
  71. # [00:27] <gsnedders> ozamosi: forename + surname is unique enough
  72. # [00:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: but collisions?
  73. # [00:28] <ozamosi> gsnedders: well... I think forename + surname collisions are more likely than sex changes, actually
  74. # [00:29] * Philip` says hello to the other Philip Taylor in the HTML WG
  75. # [00:29] <gsnedders> ozamosi: that's probably true.
  76. # [00:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: s/Taylor/TAYLOR/
  77. # [00:29] <Philip`> You could use their MSN address
  78. # [00:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: no, friends would be able to find out who
  79. # [00:29] <ozamosi> SHA-1 on MSN address! :)
  80. # [00:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: and I've had enough people kill me for spreading their MSN address among one or two people, yet alone the web
  81. # [00:30] <Philip`> You could use the hash of their MSN address, with a prepended salt so other people can't work out who it is
  82. # [00:30] <gsnedders> ozamosi: that might work, if I knew all of their MSN addresses
  83. # [00:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: a salt wouldn't help
  84. # [00:30] <ozamosi> FoaF use SHA-1 on email addresses as UID:s, I think
  85. # [00:30] <Philip`> It would have to be a secret salt which only you know
  86. # [00:30] <Philip`> though maybe that's not a salt any more
  87. # [00:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: if you find a string that happens to be the original, which is infinitely unlikely anyway, having a hash wouldn't help
  88. # [00:31] <gsnedders> s/hash/salt/
  89. # [00:31] * gsnedders is too tired
  90. # [00:31] <Philip`> but then people couldn't just hash the MSN user database to find out who you're talking about
  91. # [00:31] <gsnedders> Philip`: ah. true.
  92. # [00:31] <gsnedders> actually, I know all of their bebo usernames…
  93. # [00:31] <gsnedders> that's a UID I could use (hash + salt, obviously)
  94. # [00:32] * jgraham_ points out that more ambiguity = more privacy
  95. # [00:32] <gsnedders> jgraham_: some of the names involved are quite rare where I live, and I'm in a relatively small town
  96. # [00:33] <jgraham_> I was just saying that y'know /not bothering/ will improve privacy even if it offends your instincts for attaching objects unique identifiers ;)
  97. # [00:34] <gsnedders> her<sub>f3fbff01d2a29fb88526a6be2f7d3d97c78bc87b</sub> is a bit awkward, though
  98. # [00:34] <jgraham_> Oh, and per your second question; I think <article> or <section> is what you want.
  99. # [00:35] <gsnedders> <section> probably
  100. # [00:35] <gsnedders> jgraham_: not bother? me? :)
  101. # [00:35] <gsnedders> (looking up bebo username to calculate that hash made me laugh — her username is to do with lust :P)
  102. # [00:36] <Philip`> Base 16 encoding is very inefficient - you should probably be able to do it in base 32768 if you use Unicode characters
  103. # [00:37] * gsnedders bursts out laughing
  104. # [00:38] <kingryan> Philip`: wouldn't there be numbers that couldn't be expressed?
  105. # [00:38] <gsnedders> surely base 0x1400 would be enough?
  106. # [00:39] <gsnedders> kingryan: yeah, that would be an issue
  107. # [00:40] <om_sleep_> Hixie: ok, out of meeting, reading now
  108. # [00:40] <Philip`> kingryan: Why would that be?
  109. # [00:40] <Hixie> wow, othermaciej fell asleep during his meeting
  110. # [00:40] <gsnedders> Philip`: not all unicode code points are assigned
  111. # [00:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: Apple is exciting. I thought you knew? :)
  112. # [00:41] * om_sleep_ is now known as othermaciej
  113. # [00:41] <hsivonen> hmm. why is it that so many Java libraries implement their own UTF-8 encoding or decoding?
  114. # [00:41] <othermaciej> Hixie: no, my IRC client just sucks :-(
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  116. # [00:42] <Philip`> You don't need 32K consecutive code points - just pick some subset that doesn't conflict with HTML (like avoid whitespace and control characters), and I assume there's enough allocated code points to manage that
  117. # [00:47] <hsivonen> the Xalan XML serializer is surprisingly big
  118. # [00:47] <gsnedders> if I had binary data, how would I get it into a state from which I could get a codepoint (I really am too tired)?
  119. # [00:47] <hsivonen> and all I wanted was an easily hackable ContentHandler to stream serializer
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  121. # [00:48] * gsnedders realises
  122. # [00:48] <kingryan> hsivonen: some java libraries (namely lucene) do their own utf-8 encoding b/c they implemented it before the spec was done, IIRC
  123. # [00:48] * gsnedders facepalms
  124. # [00:49] <hsivonen> kingryan: yeah, there's a lot pre-1.4.2 stuff out there
  125. # [00:49] <othermaciej> Hixie: looks good to me
  126. # [00:49] * Parts: kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com)
  127. # [00:50] <hsivonen> some Java libraries are surprisingly conservative about support for old JDKs
  128. # [00:50] <othermaciej> Hixie: I may have feedback on details once I see it in spec form but the basic model seems sound
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  131. # [00:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: k
  132. # [00:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: thanks
  133. # [00:52] * hsivonen seriously considers writing a non-configurable *simple* UTF-8-only XML serializer
  134. # [00:53] <hsivonen> I know that I could write a namespaceless serializer faster than I could familiarize myself with the Xalan codebase
  135. # [00:53] <hsivonen> but namespaces will be yucky
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  138. # [00:58] <othermaciej> Hixie: actually, I'm still not sure how to address login, since with many web apps the main URL normally goes to a login page - perhaps it's ok for a first cut to say the offline API only works with "remember me on this computer" style login
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  141. # [01:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: the mail url typically goes to a login page unless you're already logged in
  142. # [01:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's trivial for that page to check if you are logged in
  143. # [01:02] <gsnedders> numeric subscripts it is, starting at 1 for both male and female.
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  180. # [03:28] <Hixie> aa: yt?
  181. # [03:29] <Hixie> i'm changing executeSql() to be async
  182. # [03:30] <Hixie> so you do executeSql('update scores set score=? where user=? and score < ?', score, user, score, function (result) { ... });
  183. # [03:30] <Hixie> but what happens when an error occurs?
  184. # [03:31] <Hixie> should i call the callback anyway, just with an object representing an error?
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  186. # [03:31] <Hixie> or should i dispatch an 'error' event to the database?
  187. # [03:31] <Hixie> i guess the former is better...
  188. # [03:31] <om_sleep> aa: did you see my email suggestion of how to change ResultSet, which proposes adding errorCode and errror fields?
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  190. # [03:32] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  191. # [03:32] <othermaciej> Hixie: sorry, meant that for you
  192. # [03:32] <Hixie> assuming you're talking to me, yes, that's why i'm asking
  193. # [03:32] <othermaciej> letting the callback handle the error seems easier to work with
  194. # [03:32] <Hixie> j
  195. # [03:32] <Hixie> k, even
  196. # [03:32] <othermaciej> and you'd also want that for the sync version
  197. # [03:33] <Hixie> and i guess we just say that if you call executeSql() on the database while in a callback that went wrong, you raise an exception?
  198. # [03:33] <Hixie> since that probably indicates you didn't check for errors
  199. # [03:33] <Hixie> or do we just start a new transaction in that case
  200. # [03:34] <othermaciej> I'm not sure
  201. # [03:34] <othermaciej> are there any errors where it ever makes sense to continue the same transaction?
  202. # [03:34] <othermaciej> I'd guess probably not
  203. # [03:34] <othermaciej> so exception seems ok
  204. # [03:34] <Hixie> well you can't continue the same transaction
  205. # [03:34] <Hixie> since you've rolled back by then
  206. # [03:35] <othermaciej> that's true
  207. # [03:35] <Hixie> but you could start a new one
  208. # [03:35] <Hixie> if we raise an exception, which i think is the better thing to do for catching errors, it means that the only way to then do a new transaction as part of error handling is to have a timeout
  209. # [03:35] <Hixie> to start a new "context"
  210. # [03:35] <Hixie> which is ugly
  211. # [03:35] <othermaciej> continuing blindly seems like it could give bad results, on the other hand, the timeout thing to retry is ugly
  212. # [03:35] <Hixie> yeah
  213. # [03:35] <Hixie> exactly
  214. # [03:36] <Hixie> hard to know which is better
  215. # [03:36] <othermaciej> you could have a closeTransaction() method on Database
  216. # [03:36] <Hixie> could do
  217. # [03:36] <othermaciej> which isn't needed in the normal case, but could be used for retry in a callback
  218. # [03:36] <Hixie> yeah
  219. # [03:36] <Hixie> ok
  220. # [03:36] <Hixie> will do that
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  224. # [04:07] <Hixie> i suppose we really want the database version to be set as part of a transaction
  225. # [04:07] <Hixie> oh well
  226. # [04:08] <Hixie> i guess it doesn't matter
  227. # [04:09] * Hixie thinks to himself... . o O ( the upgrading app can set it to a secret value while upgrading, then to the new version when done )
  228. # [04:10] <Hixie> grr this is going to introduce all kinds of race conditions
  229. # [04:19] <Hixie> hm
  230. # [04:19] <Hixie> how do we handle a commit failing?
  231. # [04:20] <Hixie> we have no way to notify the app
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  277. # [06:59] <Lachy> access keys don't seem to work in Opera 9.5 alpha, but they do in 9.2
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  280. # [07:01] <Lachy> pressign Shift+Esc on this page lists all the keys defined, but labels them poorly. http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/accesskey.html#ex
  281. # [07:02] <Lachy> <input ... accesskey="N"> shows up as: "(N) (Null)" in the menu
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  283. # [07:02] <Lachy> ah, that's probably because there's no <label> for those controls
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  285. # [07:05] <Lachy> no, makes no difference whether you define the accesskey on the input or label, it still lists (Null)
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  303. # [07:48] <om_sleep> Lachy: seems like it will always use the "value"
  304. # [07:48] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  305. # [07:49] <othermaciej> Lachy: or title
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  307. # [07:51] <Lachy> I see. That's not very useful
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  309. # [07:52] <othermaciej> Lachy: it does seem like neither of those is suitable for a text field
  310. # [07:52] <othermaciej> but a keyboard shortcut to focus a specific text field seems a little silly in itself
  311. # [07:53] <othermaciej> anyway Opera is not really selling me on the potential of accesskey not sucking
  312. # [07:54] <Lachy> it's not that silly. It's common for Alt+(key) to focus controls in dialog boxes on Windows
  313. # [07:54] <Lachy> the key is typically underlined in the controls label
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  315. # [07:56] <othermaciej> ok, "silly to me as a mac user"
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  317. # [07:57] <othermaciej> I think even on windows you don't see that on text fields that aren't part of a dialog box
  318. # [07:57] <Lachy> yeah, Macs have a lot of bad UI design ;-)
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  320. # [07:57] <othermaciej> that's what I've always heard
  321. # [07:58] <othermaciej> on mac it's pretty rare for a dialog to have more than a handful of items in the focus cycle so you just use tab
  322. # [07:59] <Lachy> well, Alt+D typically focuses the address bar in IE and Firefox, so it doesn't only occur in dialog boxes
  323. # [08:00] <othermaciej> on mac Cmd-L is the usual shortcut for that in browsers, but it's kind of an exception
  324. # [08:00] <Lachy> Ctrl+L also works in Firefox
  325. # [08:00] <othermaciej> (and it has a menu item, so it's a menu shortcut, not a focus shorcut; there's certainly no underlined letter)
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  328. # [08:03] <Lachy> where's the menu item located for it?
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  370. # [10:15] <Lachy> one of the problems with the accesskey discussion is that some people don't seem to understand how <command> and <menu> work in HTML5. Perhaps if someone clearly explained that it can be used for toolbar menus or context menus, much like native apps use.
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  380. # [11:07] <othermaciej> Lachy: yeah, my original proposal assumed too much
  381. # [11:08] <othermaciej> Lachy: I mainly just wanted to jot down my idea somewhere that it wouldn't get lost
  382. # [11:09] <othermaciej> Lachy: btw Open Location... in the File menu is the menu item with Cmd-L as a shortcut, at least in Safari and Firefox on Mac
  383. # [11:11] <Lachy> ok
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  388. # [12:01] <hsivonen> hmm. dev.w3.org is taking too long to respond. I hope my list reply wasn't silly given the current edit state of the principle doc (which I was unable to check)
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  396. # [12:29] <billyjack> hsivonen - fwiw, your reply didn't seem silly at all to me
  397. # [12:29] <billyjack> if you're referring to the "HTML5 does *not* aim to be backwards compatible with HTML 4" one
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  401. # [12:34] <annevk> hmm, why is the callback the last argument in executeSql...
  402. # [12:34] <annevk> it looks weird because of the arguments... in the middle
  403. # [12:36] * billyjack is now known as MikeSmith
  404. # [12:40] <annevk> yeah, made sense to me too fwiw
  405. # [12:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, that was what I was referring to
  406. # [12:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: did you see my list of GNU error format issues?
  407. # [12:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_GNU_Output
  408. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - no, haven't seen it yet
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  410. # [12:43] * MikeSmith is looking now
  411. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I agree about the tab issue (should count as one column); as far as UTF-8 in the message, I think there are likely many users in console envrionments who don't have UTF-8 support; as far as how to distinguish classes of messages, I think "Error; " and "Warning; " and "Note; " as a prefix in the message field
  412. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> The other questions I don't have any brilliant insights one
  413. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> on
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  416. # [12:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Do Emacs, etc., recognize Error: and Warning; labels?
  417. # [12:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that is, if the aim is to make Emacs tell you that you don't have errors, will a Note: or Warning: line be counted as error?
  418. # [12:54] * annevk reads posts on the alt attribute such as http://whatnitishknows.blogspot.com/2007/09/get-traffic-from-image-serach-engines.html
  419. # [12:54] <annevk> "Its the very sweet ‘alt’ attribute which most of us do not use in our Image tags because we want to save our time or mainly because we think its useless. The ‘alt’ attribute is very important to place while writing the tag code for your image as it servers another keyword targeting purpose for image search bot."
  420. # [12:54] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: my own use of emacs is *very* superficial, so the exact integration screnarios aren't at all clear to me
  421. # [12:54] <annevk> seems that SEO, not authoring tools, might help authors care :)
  422. # [12:55] <hsivonen> hendry: any insights on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_GNU_Output from the vim perspective?
  423. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I think the expectation is that users need to do a certain about of Emacs customization for each time of compiler/checker/whatever they want to be able to have Emacs parse error messages for
  424. # [12:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
  425. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> some other apps, like Vim, have similar features; e.g.:
  426. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ant-user/200101.mbox/%3C20010129173134.A24005@zellner.org%3E
  427. # [12:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: should I try to keep the forward-compatible two-level taxonomy that I intend to use for XML and JSON?
  428. # [12:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that is, should I do something like Error, Fatal:
  429. # [12:59] <hsivonen> so that forward-compatible script can extract "Error" when they see Error, Foobar:
  430. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> I would personally prefer that
  431. # [12:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
  432. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  434. # [13:06] <hsivonen> annevk: it is rather sad how much "blog" content these days is written by humans only to bait users to see Google Ads
  435. # [13:07] <hsivonen> annevk: check out tasks on mturk.com and you'll find that poor people can make a cent by participating in astroturfing schemes
  436. # [13:10] <hsivonen> mturk.com is already used for transcribing audio. I wonder if it'll be used for outsourcing alt text writing.
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  438. # [13:17] <annevk> oh yeah, heard about that
  439. # [13:18] <annevk> I think marp suggested that something like that might work, but it doesn't really seem to scale to the amount of images that are hosted on Flickr for instance
  440. # [13:18] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  441. # [13:18] <annevk> or maybe it does...
  442. # [13:19] * annevk wonders why role= needs namespaced extensibility
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  444. # [13:23] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm not ethically comfortable with mturk. It feels exploitative.
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  448. # [13:30] * annevk reads an old Gecko bug where canvas.showFallback() is suggested
  449. # [13:31] <annevk> see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=291216#c18
  450. # [13:31] <annevk> other options: <canvas require-context="3d funky">
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  485. # [14:48] <jwalden> question: are there any URLs which can be used to link to specific versions of the HTML5 spec?
  486. # [14:48] * jwalden has a feeling now may not be the best time to ask, PDT-wise
  487. # [14:48] <krijnh> jwalden: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
  488. # [14:49] <jwalden> krijnh: isn't that just the latest version?
  489. # [14:49] <jwalden> I think I really meant s/version/revision/ in my question, actually
  490. # [14:50] <krijnh> Ah, versions, my eyes told me you said sections
  491. # [14:50] <krijnh> Sorry :)
  492. # [14:50] <jwalden> fragment identifiers work for that anyway
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  494. # [14:54] <gsnedders> jwalden: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/ (wherever HTML5 is under that, but it's down at the moment)
  495. # [14:54] <jwalden> heh
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  514. # [15:53] <hsivonen> annevk: btw, regarding firehose photostreams and metadata, tantek's photostream is an interesting case study. no sets, no human-entered titles, but, yet, elaborate tagging
  515. # [15:54] <hsivonen> jgraham's Flickrs stream is very different
  516. # [15:54] <hsivonen> people use these tools very differently
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  540. # [17:44] <Lachy_> does anyone know where the command attribute is defined? It's mentioned once, but doesn't seem to be defined anywhere http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-icon
  541. # [17:51] <Dashiva> That paragraph could probably do with significant rewriting
  542. # [17:54] <Lachy_> yeah, probably. But I believe the intention is that one can do, e.g. <input type=button command=foo> pointing to <command id=foo ...>, and then the input (and any other elements that reference it) get included in that command elements .triggers DOM attribute.
  543. # [17:54] <Lachy_> and when one activates that input, the associated command is triggered.
  544. # [17:54] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  545. # [17:55] <Dashiva> Sounds sensible
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  550. # [18:22] <jgraham_> Lachy: As far as I can tell, it isn't
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  563. # [19:41] <Hixie> othermaciej: i love that you commented only on the part of hte Database APIs that i hadn't changed at all yet
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  565. # [19:44] <Hixie> and apparently the spec is confuding, but right now you only get a transaction if you call executeSql from within a callback
  566. # [19:44] <Hixie> exactly as originaly suggested :-
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  575. # [20:37] <annevk> hsivonen, "firehose photostreams"? :)
  576. # [20:49] <hsivonen> annevk: the kind of photostreams that contain lots and lots of photos. more than what you'd want to type in titles or alternative text for
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  579. # [21:30] <hsivonen> are there any video sharing sites that output Ogg these days?
  580. # [21:34] <Philip`> There's http://blog.blip.tv/blog/2006/05/31/introduction-ogg-theora-support/
  581. # [21:37] <Philip`> Looks like they only offer FLV and the original source version for most videos, though
  582. # [21:39] <Philip`> but there is e.g. http://blip.tv/file/340551/ with http://blip.tv/file/get/Anvazher-PruebaVideo318.ogg
  583. # [21:39] <Philip`> (but the applet doesn't work for me - first it crashed the browser, now it just shows a black box)
  584. # [21:41] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Wikipedia uses ogg, but that isn't really a video sharing site. probably the biggest, though
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  588. # [21:59] <Dashiva> Are the people arguing for merging ul, ol, nl, etc into a single element really serious?
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  590. # [22:07] <gsnedders> Dashiva: I expect so
  591. # [22:08] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  592. # [22:20] <hsivonen> Philip`: I just registered to blip.tv and uploaded a file. the only format they autogenerate is .flv
  593. # [22:20] <hsivonen> which isn't cool. Apparantly, if I want .ogg or .mp4 I need to generate those myself and upload
  594. # [22:21] <hsivonen> which means that blip.tv doesn't really solve the boring and hard part of Web video
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  600. # [23:00] * jgraham notes that even though his flickr stream is not a firehose writing good alternative text has an unfavourable opportunity cost
  601. # [23:01] <jgraham> Because the two groups of people I care about viewing the content are: my friends and family (who are all presently sighted) for the purposes of documentary and random strangers for any aesthetic value the pictures might have
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  603. # [23:03] <jgraham> So the only reason to write descriptions now would be so that the descriptions were available should they be needed by any member of the first group in the future
  604. # [23:04] <jgraham> However I don't think the content is valuable enough to spend the time writing descriptions rather than, say, processing more photos
  605. # [23:06] * jgraham wonders if he will be called anti-accessibility now
  606. # [23:08] <Dashiva> There are two groups of those, the "lazy" ones and the "evil" ones
  607. # [23:08] <Dashiva> Most of us fall into the lazy group
  608. # [23:13] <jgraham> But part of "laziness" is opportunity cost; e.g. the opportunity cost of writing descriptions for photos is that I have less time to spend on producing more photos. The second activity has a small, identifiable, audience (my friends and family), the first has a, presumably smaller, unknown audience
  609. # [23:14] <jgraham> Of course the situation would be entirely different if I were producing content with a different audience. A government site should have useful alternative text for all non-decorative images
  610. # [23:14] <jgraham> (for example)
  611. # [23:16] <Dashiva> Yeah, that's why it's not evil. You aren't doing it to hurt accessibility, it's just a side effect
  612. # [23:17] <Dashiva> But objectively, accessibility suffers
  613. # [23:18] <jgraham> Sure.
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  618. # Session Close: Sun Sep 23 00:00:00 2007

The end :)