/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 27 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:30] <Hixie> so
  9. # [00:30] <Hixie> if i have an opportunistic caching namespace of "http://example.com/data/"
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  11. # [00:31] <Hixie> then if i go to "http://example.com/data/a" it'll get cached
  12. # [00:31] <Hixie> but what if i go to "http://example.com/data/"?
  13. # [00:31] <Hixie> should that match it too?
  14. # [00:31] <Dashiva> I would say yes, since it's likely to be http://example.com/data/index.html or similar in the background
  15. # [00:32] <Hixie> k
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  17. # [00:35] <hsivonen> validator.nu now supports &out=json&callback=foo to get a JS callback instead of pure JSON
  18. # [00:36] <hsivonen> with IdentifierName and reserved word checks
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  21. # [00:46] * hsivonen wonders why Gecko and WebKit accept gzip, deflate but Opera acceps deflate, gzip
  22. # [00:46] <hsivonen> isn't gzip just deflate plus magic & CRC?
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  24. # [00:51] * Hixie slowly gets rid of red boxes in his work-in-progress offline section
  25. # [00:53] <kingryan> Hixie: out of curiosity, what do you use that has red boxen?
  26. # [00:56] <Hixie> i mean the red boxes in the spec
  27. # [00:56] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#offline
  28. # [00:56] <Hixie> (not checked in yet)
  29. # [00:57] <Hixie> nice! the silly pipes thing i have that takes a word from my blog entries and then gets a flickr picture for that word to render next to my blog picked a picture of zibibbo's!
  30. # [00:58] <hsivonen> rfc 2616 is being friendly by defining the whole q value thing for content-encodings instead of just listing the order of preference...
  31. # [01:00] <kingryan> Hixie: ah
  32. # [01:00] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Yeah, it's really intuitive and never confused anyone
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  35. # [01:05] <hsivonen> opera makes use of the q facility: Accept-Encoding: deflate, gzip, x-gzip, identity, *;q=0
  36. # [01:10] <hendry> Hixie: awesome blog post. I am getting my head around tipping here too
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  39. # [01:21] <Philip`> About canvas exceptions: there are quite a lot of simple cases where browsers differ, like getContext('unrecognised') and toDataURL('image/jpeg') and toDataURL('image/png', 1) and restore() and lots of Infinity/NaN and globalCompositeOperation='unknown' and loads more
  40. # [01:22] <Philip`> but I don't know which ones are worth trying to fix now (like for FF3 / Opera 9.5)
  41. # [01:27] <Philip`> (Also, I don't really like how the spec handles infinities in the transform functions - it seems weird and confusing, since it'll just silently stop rendering, and I expect it'd be more helpful to have exceptions in those cases)
  42. # [01:29] <Philip`> (Hmm, it looks like Opera 9.5 does throw exceptions in those cases (contrary to the spec), whereas Opera 9.2 didn't)
  43. # [01:29] <Philip`> ((All Firefoxes throw, and Safari 3 doesn't))
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  47. # [01:39] <Hixie> Philip`: iirc the idea was to make it easier to plot graphs with asymptotes without having to be too careful about boundary conditions
  48. # [01:45] <Philip`> Hixie: If you're plotting graphs, you'd want lineTo to handle infinities without throwing - transformations aren't relevant for that
  49. # [01:45] <bewest> hrm. I see opensearch mentioned in the discussion of link elements... I don't suppose the js API exposed by some browsers will make it into the spec as well?
  50. # [01:47] <Hixie> Philip`: i forget the exact use case. but it was something to do with an edge case and making it easier to handle.
  51. # [01:47] <Philip`> The comment in the spec blames me for wanting scale(x);translate(1/x);drawStuff() to work (drawing nothing) when x=0, but I'm not convinced now that that's sufficiently useful or common
  52. # [01:48] <Hixie> ah heh
  53. # [01:48] <Hixie> well, send more mail
  54. # [01:48] <Hixie> not sure when i'll get to canvas next though
  55. # [01:48] <Hixie> it's gotten more attention than most parts of the spec
  56. # [01:49] <Hixie> incidentally I don't suppose anyone has written a perl html5 parser yet
  57. # [01:49] * Hixie wants to write one himself but doesn't want to embark on that quite yet
  58. # [01:49] <Hixie> yet i need one now :-)
  59. # [01:49] <Hixie> oh well, regexps it is.
  60. # [01:50] <Philip`> I'll see if I can think of any compelling arguments about infinite transformations, though I'm not sure if I'll come up with anything useful :-)
  61. # [01:50] <Philip`> I have a Perl HTML5 tokeniser
  62. # [01:50] <Hixie> i need a dom really
  63. # [01:50] <Hixie> but interesting
  64. # [01:50] <Hixie> is it online anywhere?
  65. # [01:51] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/svn/tokeniser/ will generate the Perl code
  66. # [01:51] * Philip` looks for a pregenerated version
  67. # [01:52] <Hixie> nice
  68. # [01:52] <Hixie> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/svn/tokeniser/tokeniser.pl presumably
  69. # [01:53] <Hixie> ah no that's the wrapper
  70. # [01:53] <Philip`> That has everything except the tokeniser algorithm :-)
  71. # [01:54] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/tokeniser/ though I haven't tested it recently and it was never particularly well developed in the first place
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  73. # [01:54] <Philip`> (It can run all the tokeniser tests successfully, though)
  74. # [01:55] <Philip`> (...except for some Unicode issues, I think)
  75. # [01:55] <Philip`> Oh, it's even got hardcoded file paths in it
  76. # [01:58] * Philip` still wants to write the rest of the HTML5 parser, and then it should work in C++/JS/Perl at the same time
  77. # [01:58] <Hixie> good luck
  78. # [01:59] * Philip` still wants to do too many other things and doesn't know when he'll have the time :-(
  79. # [02:00] <Hixie> i know the feeling
  80. # [02:01] <Philip`> $ echo '<test ===>foo' | perl tokeniser.pl
  81. # [02:01] <Philip`> [["StartTag","test",{"=":"="}],["Character","foo\n"]]
  82. # [02:01] <Philip`> Hooray, it still works (after I remembered how to install the JSON module)
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  85. # [02:21] <Hixie> oh hey, look at that, my cronjobs aren't running any more so the issues list isn't updating
  86. # [02:22] * Hixie contacts dreamhost
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  91. # [02:36] <Hixie> hmm
  92. # [02:36] <Hixie> we don't really have a way to _disable_ the app cache once you have one
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  97. # [03:00] <Hixie> if i go to page A and it has an application="" with a manifest M1 that brings in page B
  98. # [03:00] <Hixie> and i later go to page B
  99. # [03:00] <Hixie> we have decided that it should load B from appcache M1
  100. # [03:00] <Hixie> ok so i go to M1 and load B but I find that that copy of B says application="" M2, not M1
  101. # [03:00] <Hixie> so what do i do?
  102. # [03:02] <Hixie> i can't just load it from M1 anyway, because then it'll fail and there's no way out other than fixing M1.
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  104. # [03:02] <Hixie> so i have to give up and load it from the network (assuming i haven't got M2 loaded yet)
  105. # [03:02] <Hixie> but then i might find that it actually says application="" with a manifest M1
  106. # [03:03] <Hixie> (i'm assuming that this whole time the manifests themselves aren't changing, so we're not updating anything)
  107. # [03:15] <Hixie> ...but i guess getting it back as M1 would be ok... i would just overwrite that particular entry in the cache.
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  133. # [07:02] * Hixie tries to untangle himself from the mess that has become the offline application cache work
  134. # [07:02] <Hixie> it's already a 1000+ line patch to the spec
  135. # [07:02] <Hixie> sheesh
  136. # [07:12] <othermaciej> Hixie: it's a tough, messy job
  137. # [07:12] <othermaciej> Hixie: but somebody's gotta do it
  138. # [07:13] <Hixie> there are a lot of edge cases
  139. # [07:14] <othermaciej> well, I hope you have the leadership skills, social grace, and all around friendliness to get the edge cases right
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  143. # [08:25] <Hixie> krijnh: any idea why people mark so many boring lines as interesting in the irc logs?
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  157. # [09:57] <krijnh> Hixie: no idea
  158. # [09:58] <Hixie> i'm thinking maybe the ui should change, i think right now it almost encourages you to hit random lines
  159. # [09:58] <krijnh> I only know the feature isn't that useful :)
  160. # [09:58] <Hixie> but i dunno what would be better
  161. # [09:58] <Hixie> the feature would be great if it wasn't abused :-)
  162. # [09:58] <krijnh> :)
  163. # [09:59] <krijnh> It isn't used that much either
  164. # [09:59] <krijnh> It's the longdesc of my irc logs
  165. # [09:59] <krijnh> Let's just drop it ;]
  166. # [09:59] <Hixie> fair enough :-)
  167. # [10:00] <krijnh> Statistics tell me there is an average of 3 important lines per day
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  169. # [10:00] <krijnh> So
  170. # [10:00] <krijnh> How do we solve the problem?
  171. # [10:01] <krijnh> 'use case': we want to let people know which parts are important
  172. # [10:01] <krijnh> Perhaps flagging the non-important ones makes more sense
  173. # [10:05] <Hixie> i like the current model
  174. # [10:05] <Hixie> i just think the current ui is poor
  175. # [10:05] <Hixie> i'm not sure how to improve it though
  176. # [10:06] <krijnh> Drag 'n drop stuff!
  177. # [10:06] <krijnh> The solution for everything
  178. # [10:08] <krijnh> If anybody has an idea; let me know :)
  179. # [10:08] <krijnh> Until then; flagging boring lines is considered harmful
  180. # [10:09] <krijnh> </afi>
  181. # [10:09] <Dashiva> We could make it a community based rating solution
  182. # [10:09] <Dashiva> (with tag clouds)
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  188. # [10:48] <hsivonen> krijnh: I don't know how to improve it, either, but double-clicking and hovering is mobile unfriendly.
  189. # [10:49] * hsivonen doesn't like q values in Accept-Encoding
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  191. # [10:58] <krijnh> hsivonen: double clicking?
  192. # [10:59] <krijnh> Are people that addicted to irc logs, that they even read them on a mobile?
  193. # [10:59] <hsivonen> krijnh: to highlight an IRC log row, one needs to first hover and then double-click, right?
  194. # [10:59] <krijnh> hsivonen: no
  195. # [10:59] <hsivonen> krijnh: yes
  196. # [11:01] * hsivonen finds that the online Jetty javadocs omit some important classes
  197. # [11:01] <hsivonen> like GzipFilter
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  200. # [11:03] <hsivonen> krijnh: if I read IRC logs on the bus, I spend less time reading them when I'm at my desk
  201. # [11:04] <krijnh> Hehe, ke
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  203. # [11:06] <krijnh> hsivonen: removed the :hover
  204. # [11:06] <krijnh> Now every line has a grey box
  205. # [11:06] <krijnh> And on hover it becomes yellow
  206. # [11:06] <krijnh> You can click the grey box as well though
  207. # [11:06] <krijnh> No double click needed
  208. # [11:06] <krijnh> Issue with jumping lines on hover fixed this way as well
  209. # [11:10] <hsivonen> can't see gray boxes in S60 Browser
  210. # [11:10] <krijnh> Why not?
  211. # [11:10] <krijnh> Can't you click the void space behind a line either? :)
  212. # [11:10] <krijnh> Click, push, touch, whatever
  213. # [11:11] <hsivonen> nope :-(
  214. # [11:12] <hsivonen> krijnh: works in MicroB on N800, though. Thanks
  215. # [11:12] <zcorpan> i can use the spatnav in opera to highlight lines
  216. # [11:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Opera is no good for reading the IRC logs. It shows the list markers, which take space. Also, it doesn't hide the leaves/joins. (8.6 on S60r3.1)
  217. # [11:18] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you want mini 4 beta ;)
  218. # [11:19] <krijnh> The leave/joins should be stripped from the HTML, I think
  219. # [11:20] <zcorpan> irrelevant="" :)
  220. # [11:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: in Mini Beta, you have to reload to switch between SSR and minimap
  221. # [11:22] <zcorpan> hmm
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  223. # [11:35] <hsivonen> bah. the Jetty GzipFilter doesn't do q values
  224. # [12:02] <hsivonen> JSON indeed compresses well
  225. # [12:03] <hsivonen> I'm *very* disappointed with Jetty docs, though
  226. # [12:03] <hsivonen> I had to read the source to figure out how to enable the GzipFilter
  227. # [12:03] <hsivonen> and the existence of the filter was undocumented
  228. # [12:04] <hsivonen> I found out accidentally from Eclipse's autocomplete
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  254. # [17:16] <hsivonen> weird. Am I reading correctly that the Python gzip module wants to read for a file and won't read form another kind of source?
  255. # [17:17] <hsivonen> hmm. I guess I can pass a fileObj and a bogus name...
  256. # [17:18] <hsivonen> ah. diveintopython to rescue
  257. # [17:18] <Philip`> Can you use plain zlib instead?
  258. # [17:19] <hsivonen> Philip`: it looks complicated
  259. # [17:19] <Philip`> output = zlib.decompress(input) ? :-)
  260. # [17:19] <hsivonen> gzip.GzipFile(fileobj=foo)
  261. # [17:20] <hsivonen> Philip`: does decompress skip over gzip header and deal with the CRC?
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  263. # [17:22] <hsivonen> in related news, I had regressed &out=text. works now. sorry
  264. # [17:25] <Philip`> It sounds like zlib.decompress handles the "standard gzip header" (unless you pass it negative wbits)
  265. # [17:25] <Philip`> but I don't know if it's exactly the same header, or if it does the right kind of checksum too
  266. # [17:28] <hsivonen> if response.getheader('Content-Encoding', 'identity').lower() == 'gzip': response = gzip.GzipFile(fileobj=StringIO.StringIO(response.read()))
  267. # [17:28] <hsivonen> that works
  268. # [17:29] <hsivonen> How badly does gzip break streamability, though?
  269. # [17:29] <hsivonen> surely it can't break it beyond its compression window?
  270. # [17:30] <hsivonen> how would piping gigabytes of data to gzip work otherwise?
  271. # [17:30] <hsivonen> markp explains GzipFile is being difficult because it needs random access to the fileobj
  272. # [17:33] <hsivonen> http://about.validator.nu/html5check.py now uses compression
  273. # [17:35] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
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  278. # [17:43] * zcorpan adds form[action$="validator.nu/"] ~ *, form[action$="validator.nu/"] ~ * b { font-weight:normal !important; } to his user.css :)
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  280. # [17:46] <Dashiva> And to think CSS used to be readable
  281. # [17:47] <zcorpan> krijnh: you could change the color of the box only when you hover the actual box -- not when you hover the line
  282. # [17:48] <zcorpan> krijnh: that would make it less distracting when reading :)
  283. # [17:49] <zcorpan> krijnh: or use checkboxes instead?
  284. # [17:52] <zcorpan> hmm, the ui fonts can expose to js what os theme the user has
  285. # [17:53] <zcorpan> dunno how that could be used
  286. # [17:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan: could be used for UI spoofing
  287. # [17:53] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah
  288. # [17:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan: although the whole CSS UI font idea is intended for white-hat UI consistency
  289. # [17:54] <hsivonen> which is what I'm trying to do, but your browser is not playing along to your taste :-(
  290. # [17:54] <zcorpan> indeed
  291. # [17:55] <zcorpan> perhaps browsers can combat ui spoofing in the same way as the visited links thing
  292. # [17:56] <Philip`> The UI spoofing use case seems to be handled alright by screenshotting the standard Windows UI into a GIF, judging by the adverts I see on the web
  293. # [17:56] <Philip`> and users don't care if minor details are not consistent with the standard UI, like if the dialog box's button is bouncing all over the place and flashing
  294. # [17:57] <zcorpan> Philip`: bouncing and flashing ads are too obvious to be spoofing
  295. # [18:02] <zcorpan> more serious spoofing would be to imitate active x dialogs in fake bank sites
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  301. # [18:17] <zcorpan> hsivonen: your html5 schema doesn't allow id="" on <title> it seems
  302. # [18:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: or any attributes on <title>
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  304. # [18:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is the reason you don't have upload and textarea that you don't know how to integrate it nicely in the ui?
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  308. # [18:49] * gsnedders wonders what happens according to the spec if you have a <title> element within .innerHTML on a |div|
  309. # [18:50] <zcorpan> gsnedders: when setting innerHTML?
  310. # [18:50] <gsnedders> zcorpan: yeah
  311. # [18:52] <gsnedders> if it the fragment algorithm returns all the children of the root |html|, surely it'll return things like |head| for every fragment?
  312. # [18:53] <zcorpan> gsnedders: no, the parsing algorithm has fragment case checks
  313. # [18:54] <zcorpan> gsnedders: also, fragment parsing starts in the main phase
  314. # [18:54] <gsnedders> surely it starts with the insertion mode as "before head"?
  315. # [18:55] <gsnedders> then when it reaches the "any other start tag token" case it creates a |head| element
  316. # [18:55] <zcorpan> gsnedders: depends on the context element
  317. # [18:55] <zcorpan> i think
  318. # [18:55] <gsnedders> all the context element affects is the content model flag
  319. # [18:56] <zcorpan> ok
  320. # [18:56] <gsnedders> actually, it calls the insertion mode appropriately algorithm
  321. # [18:59] <gsnedders> insertion mode starts as "in body"
  322. # [19:00] <zcorpan> regardless of the context element?
  323. # [19:00] <gsnedders> no, in the case of |div| (as per my question)
  324. # [19:03] <zcorpan> right
  325. # [19:04] <zcorpan> you process the "title" start tag token as if the insertion mode was in head
  326. # [19:05] <zcorpan> which says: "Follow the generic RCDATA parsing algorithm, with the head element pointer as the context node, unless that's null, in which case use the current node (fragment cose)."
  327. # [19:05] <zcorpan> the head element pointer will be null in your case
  328. # [19:05] <gsnedders> so it just goes where it was in the source?
  329. # [19:06] <zcorpan> yeah, seems so
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  346. # [21:06] <zcorpan> Hixie: whereto did you send test cases to freedom scientific?
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  349. # [21:08] <Hixie> zcorpan: support@, iirc
  350. # [21:08] <Hixie> i can find more info if you want
  351. # [21:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: that would be good
  352. # [21:09] <Hixie> k, in the middle of something right now, but remind me in 10-15 mins
  353. # [21:09] <Hixie> if i fornget
  354. # [21:09] <zcorpan> ok
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  357. # [21:12] <Hixie> zcorpan: ok i e-mailed support@freedomscientific.com, eventually Bryan Carver <bcarver@freedomscientific.com>, their tech support director, e-mailed me back after having spoken with the dev team.
  358. # [21:13] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok, thanks
  359. # [21:14] <Hixie> they seemed to really like having nice simple test cases
  360. # [21:14] <Hixie> (unsurprisingly)
  361. # [21:14] <Hixie> (for those of you following along at home, the tests i sent them are at http://hixie.ch/tests/evil/screen-readers/ )
  362. # [21:16] <bewest> interesting... w3m renders bullets on each line in the second test
  363. # [21:16] <Hixie> w3m presumably doesn't support css
  364. # [21:17] <bewest> nope
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  373. # [22:15] <Hixie> seeing the comments about my last blog entry on reddit is leading me to the conclusion that the people who read reddit aren't as technically capable as i'd previously assumed
  374. # [22:16] <Hixie> doesn't everyone find bit maths easy?
  375. # [22:16] <kingryan> Hixie: I'm surprised that you're surprised
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  399. # Session Close: Fri Sep 28 00:00:00 2007

The end :)