/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-28 / end

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  59. # [06:40] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/p06240608c3222c5f42fe@%5B192.168.0.101%5D - someone should point out to sander that matthew was talking about unimplemented features, whereas the e-mail he cites is about a widely implemented feature...
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  71. # [08:32] <Hixie> that's weird
  72. # [08:33] <Hixie> the html4all archives were recently switched from a text dump to a gzipped text dump, and since then the archive file hasn't actually updated
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  83. # [09:51] <Hixie> hm, i wonder if the people in www-svg will see the latest thread as evidence of problems with http's content-type concept, or as evidence of an ignorant author
  84. # [09:54] <heycam> not evidence of a problem with content-type, just a problem of not sane defaults on the server
  85. # [09:54] <Hixie> well, you can never have sane defaults for emerging technologies
  86. # [09:54] <Hixie> since the server is likely years older than the technology
  87. # [09:55] <heycam> not hard to update your magic file, or whatever the server uses to determine content type
  88. # [09:55] <Hixie> in his case it is, he's not root
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  90. # [09:55] <othermaciej> it would be better for servers not to send a content-type by default
  91. # [09:56] <heycam> if it doesn't know what type it is? maybe
  92. # [09:56] <othermaciej> (not that it would help the author in this case, since browsers don't sniff for SVG)
  93. # [09:57] <heycam> do they sniff for svg if something is sent as application/xml?
  94. # [09:58] <othermaciej> for browsers with native SVG support, they would not need to
  95. # [09:58] <othermaciej> since rendering of XML content is based on the namespace, not the MIME type, so long as it is recognized as XML
  96. # [09:58] <heycam> "sniff" would mean just "look at the document element"
  97. # [09:58] <heycam> right
  98. # [09:58] <othermaciej> but presumably plugin-based solutions like ASV would not work
  99. # [09:58] <heycam> so that's a sane forward looking default for a web server to use then
  100. # [09:59] <othermaciej> to assume anything unknown is XML?
  101. # [09:59] <heycam> no :) to say it's XML if it looks like XML.
  102. # [09:59] <othermaciej> so the server should do content sniffing?
  103. # [10:00] <othermaciej> if it comes down to content sniffing, better to let the client do it
  104. # [10:00] <othermaciej> if it became common for servers to serve with no Content-Type header when they don't know, you can bet browsers would improve sniffing for that case a lot
  105. # [10:01] <heycam> i suppose clients do get upgraded more often
  106. # [10:02] <Hixie> as a general rule you want to fake the metadata as late as possible
  107. # [10:02] <Hixie> because as soon as you add it, it becomes authoritative
  108. # [10:02] <Hixie> even if wrong
  109. # [10:02] <heycam> yes that does sound sensible
  110. # [10:03] <Hixie> (same reason, in fact, why it is suggested that critical images that are missing alt text should have the alt text invented by the client instead of being faked by the server)
  111. # [10:12] <Hixie> anyone have any opinions on the format for the appcache manifest?
  112. # [10:19] <othermaciej> I would prefer something simple (one entry per line, easy to parse entries) but I am sure some would prefer XML
  113. # [10:19] <othermaciej> and once someone suggests XML, someone else will suggest JSON
  114. # [10:20] <Dashiva> OOXML
  115. # [10:21] <othermaciej> it would also be nice to have some relatively unambiguous signature at the top, so things that are clearly not at all a manifest can be quickly rejected
  116. # [10:21] <Steve_f> hixie:"being faked by the server", depends on what usable data is available to the server (e.g. title or description) is better than none.
  117. # [10:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah i am leaning towards one entry per line with space-separated annotation syntax, too
  118. # [10:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: and yes, it'll have a signature
  119. # [10:24] <Hixie> Steve_f: i'm not sure i understand what you're saying (you seem to have too many "is"s in your sentence)
  120. # [10:24] <Steve_f> hixie: The developer of the application would have a better idea about what could possibly substute for alt text than the client
  121. # [10:25] <Hixie> sure
  122. # [10:25] <Hixie> i'm talking about the case where there is no information available (other than information already in the page anyway)
  123. # [10:25] <Hixie> obviously if you have information available to create alt text, it should be used
  124. # [10:26] <Steve_f> then we agree :-)
  125. # [10:26] <Dashiva> And if we provide the information in RDFa, we'll make other people happy too :D
  126. # [10:27] <Hixie> Steve_f: indeed
  127. # [10:27] <Hixie> Steve_f: i've been a little mystified as to what all the fuss has been about to be honest
  128. # [10:27] <Hixie> Steve_f: though hopefully it'll become clear when i next work on that section
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  130. # [10:28] <Steve_f> i think the point of disagreement is whether its better for the application to insert a flag to indicate that no usable alt is available rather than just leaving out the alt attribute.
  131. # [10:30] <Dashiva> One group seems to say "It has to be handled the same, so no difference needed" and another seems to say "We can't let no alt be valid for validation purposes"
  132. # [10:30] <Hixie> Steve_f: oh just the syntax issue remains?
  133. # [10:31] <Steve_f> hixie: for me yes, but i am just talking for myself, i understand the issue, but would like to see something to indicate to AT that the image should not be ignored because it contains important info.
  134. # [10:32] <Hixie> something other than just the lack of an alt="" attribute, you mean?
  135. # [10:32] <Steve_f> yes
  136. # [10:33] <Hixie> interesting
  137. # [10:33] <Hixie> what's your reasoning for that?
  138. # [10:33] <Hixie> i mean, why isn't the lack of the attribute enough?
  139. # [10:35] <othermaciej> lack of an attribute doesn't let you distinguish "definitely a key content image, but no alt is available" from "someone forgot alt"
  140. # [10:35] <Steve_f> Now AT generally treats no alt the same as alt="" that is unless its in a link the image is ignored by default. reason being that there are lost of images without alt attributes and informing the user of every on or even a subset would be damned annoying
  141. # [10:36] <Hixie> my understanding actually was that today ATs generally treated images with no alt very differently than images with alt="" (namely, they read out the filename or some godawful thing like that)
  142. # [10:36] <Hixie> but i don't understand why a new syntax would help
  143. # [10:36] <Hixie> wouldn't you just end up with a lot of images that had this new syntax despite being useless unimportant images?
  144. # [10:37] <Hixie> the same as we today have missing alt="" on useless unimportant images?
  145. # [10:37] <Steve_f> by default, only if the image is the sole content of a link (for jaws and window eyes) and the img does not have a title
  146. # [10:38] <Hixie> ah ok
  147. # [10:38] <Hixie> (that's better than i had understood. excellent.)
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  149. # [10:38] <othermaciej> let's pretend the new syntax is noalt -- you have to at least think about whether to put <img src=foo noalt> or <img src=foo alt="">
  150. # [10:39] <othermaciej> assuming you care about conformance checking
  151. # [10:39] <othermaciej> if you don't, presumably you just leave it out and go merrily on your way
  152. # [10:39] <othermaciej> if the conformance checker required one or the other, it could even give brief advice on how to choose one
  153. # [10:40] <Steve_f> I don't think that html conformance checking is a major reason why people include or don't include alt
  154. # [10:40] <othermaciej> well, it's obviously not a reason people *don't* include it
  155. # [10:41] <Dashiva> I would say conformance checking is why people -start- using it. Then they probably learn more and figure out why it's a good idea in itself on the way.
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  157. # [10:41] <Steve_f> otherm: true
  158. # [10:41] <othermaciej> I would guess either conformance checking, or a general impression that it is the correct thing to do, or review of their html source by experts would be among the reasons in many cases
  159. # [10:42] <Steve_f> i think a major reason people use it is because it is displayed as a tooltip in IE
  160. # [10:43] <hsivonen> Steve_f: that depends a lot on the author and image. some designer types *avoid* alt (or use alt='') because they feel the tooltip taints their art
  161. # [10:43] <Hixie> othermaciej: noalt="" is certainly an interesting idea... is there any precedent for function-free syntax purely intended as a conformance checking aid? the only one i can think of is nohref on <area>, which was such a dismal disaster that we didn't bother to include it in html5.
  162. # [10:43] <othermaciej> perhaps, for those who only test in IE
  163. # [10:44] <othermaciej> Hixie: the DTD declaration? (although it has evolved to have the function of triggering standards mode)
  164. # [10:44] <Hixie> the DTD declaration would be another example of pretty dismal failure :-)
  165. # [10:44] <Steve_f> hixie: i don't see it as a conformance checking aid, i see it as a indicator it UA's
  166. # [10:45] <Hixie> Steve_f: sure, i was just responding to othermaciej's suggestion (he suggested it as a conformance checking aid)
  167. # [10:45] <othermaciej> I'm saying that is one possible purpose - it could also be an aid to AT
  168. # [10:45] <Steve_f> hixie: cool!
  169. # [10:45] <othermaciej> if it wanted to do something different in cases of apathy and ignorance
  170. # [10:46] <Hixie> Steve_f: in terms of an indicator to UAs, see my comments above from "but i don't understand why a new syntax..." and the next three lines
  171. # [10:46] <othermaciej> the main downside is that a normal mainstream UA wouldn't do anything different
  172. # [10:48] <othermaciej> Steve_f says that currently missing alt (the apathy case) is treated as if the image is decorative except when it is the sole content of a link
  173. # [10:49] <Hixie> right, because many images without alt="" are decorative
  174. # [10:49] <othermaciej> presumably noalt could be used to instead always signal presence of an image in some way
  175. # [10:49] <Hixie> i don't understand how we could get noalt="" to be reliable enough
  176. # [10:49] <othermaciej> well, people who don't care would not specify it, so that removes a large source of noise
  177. # [10:49] <Hixie> i wouldn't be at all surprised to see huge sites like picassa putting noalt="" on decorative images and omitting it on critical ones
  178. # [10:50] <othermaciej> that is possible
  179. # [10:50] <othermaciej> messages get garbled on the way to authors
  180. # [10:51] <Hixie> especially subtle ones like this
  181. # [10:51] <othermaciej> I will note that I don't consider my arguments in favor of it inevitably compelling, even though I have brought them up more than once
  182. # [10:51] <jgraham> Presumably accessibility guides would recommend always supplying alt text and never using noalt, so it's not clear who would use it
  183. # [10:51] <Steve_f> hixie: then we are back to the question of what is the use of having no alt attribute on an image to indicate that it is critical content, as effectively these images will be ignored
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  185. # [10:53] <Hixie> Steve_f: well, it doesn't indicate critical content per se, it just reduces the pressure on authors who care about compliance to make up bogus alt texts where they simply have no control over the image
  186. # [10:53] <Steve_f> jgarham: accessibility guides have to come to terms with the reality that the alt is not going to be provided in cases such as photo sites and give guidance based on this
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  188. # [10:54] <jgraham> Steve_f: Do you think they will?
  189. # [10:54] * Hixie ponders about whether bijection is a useful property for the manifest format to have
  190. # [10:55] <Hixie> i'm guessing it's gonna be hard to guarentee it without making whitespace errors excessively hard to debug
  191. # [10:55] <Hixie> oh well
  192. # [10:55] <jgraham> (also, Steve_f if you're using xchat tab will auto-complete usernames, which is nice)
  193. # [10:55] <Steve_f> jgraham: well i have and I work in the industry :-)
  194. # [10:56] <jgraham> Well I guess if people are being told the right thing it means there will be some meaningful signal in the usage of noalt.
  195. # [10:57] <Steve_f> i suggested that alt=" " quote space quote be used to indicate something other than content that should be ignored, reason being it does not require any new attributes
  196. # [10:58] <Steve_f> and does not have any majpor problems with backwards compatibility
  197. # [10:58] <Hixie> new attributes aren't a problem per se
  198. # [10:58] <Hixie> alt=" " has been widely used though
  199. # [10:58] <Steve_f> yes
  200. # [10:58] <Hixie> it's one of the most common alt texts according to some of my studies
  201. # [10:59] <Hixie> so i'm worried it in fact would have back-compat issues
  202. # [10:59] <Steve_f> hixie: thanks for the info, there goes another great idea...
  203. # [10:59] <othermaciej> any pattern to the use?
  204. # [11:00] <othermaciej> I guess it seems like it would most likely be a typo for alt=""
  205. # [11:00] <Hixie> didn't look at the use patterns
  206. # [11:00] <Hixie> it was very common along with things like alt="", alt="*", and the like
  207. # [11:01] <Hixie> also common was alt="This seller accepts PayPal"
  208. # [11:01] <Hixie> which tells you something about the ubiquity of eBay
  209. # [11:01] <Steve_f> whatever the outcome i would like to see some sort of decision sooner rather than later, so the AT vendors can be lobbied to build in support for it early so when it starts to get used it is already in a few versions of the AT
  210. # [11:02] <othermaciej> Steve_f: do you have effective channels for lobbying them?
  211. # [11:03] <Hixie> i imagine i'll be looking at images again within a year
  212. # [11:03] <Hixie> which is soon relative to when the spec'll be done :-)
  213. # [11:03] <hsivonen> is there any other single ASCII non-alphanumeric character that could be used as the "alternative text unavailable" flag? (if " " and "*" won't work)
  214. # [11:04] <Steve_f> the company i work for has contacts with a number of AT vendors, my boss mike paciello has been around for yonks, he was one of the founders of WAI
  215. # [11:04] * jgraham has to go now
  216. # [11:04] <hsivonen> would alt="_", alt="-" or alt="." have conflicts with existing content or sound too horrible in existing browser plus AT setups?
  217. # [11:04] <Hixie> i tried to get freedom scientific to give me feedback on html5, but they accepted my test cases and seemed to ignore my suggestion re the spec
  218. # [11:05] <Steve_f> they are not known for thier openeness, they don't provide any documentation on how they do stuff, which is really frustrating
  219. # [11:05] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think if we're making up new syntax we might as well use a new attribute, i don't see much benefit in having obscure syntax in alt=""
  220. # [11:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: the benefit would be suppressing JAWS/WindowsEyes from reading horrid filenames if the new magic value was less horrid when read
  221. # [11:06] <Steve_f> anyway thanks for the conversation, I have to go and do some paid work, i will resume lurking mode
  222. # [11:07] <Hixie> Steve_f: later
  223. # [11:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: we can always say that you can put both in (<img alt missingalt src="...">)
  224. # [11:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: true
  225. # [11:07] <Hixie> on another subject, i've put two (kinda crappy) sample syntaxes for the manifest file at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#offline (page down a bit)
  226. # [11:07] <Hixie> better suggestions welcome
  227. # [11:08] <Hixie> i'm gonna go to bed now though
  228. # [11:09] <othermaciej> hsivonen: apparently the filename reading is only in cases where the image is sole content of a link
  229. # [11:11] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yeah, but still. The bright side, though, is that when a markup generator generates a link, the programmer usually knows the function of the link (like "Original size") even if the content of the image is unknown in advance
  230. # [11:12] <othermaciej> hsivonen: if that's the recommendation, then presumably the filename readoing wouldn't kick in regardless of whether the syntax is a magic alt value or a new attribute
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  234. # [12:46] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/WebCGM/WG/2007/errata-10/webcgm10-errata-20070621.html
  235. # [12:46] <hsivonen> who uses WebCGM? is there browser support?
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  237. # [13:06] <othermaciej> I don't know of any browser support
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  357. # [22:21] <hsivonen> now I've got a *real* heisenbug
  358. # [22:22] <Dashiva> How fun
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  363. # [22:31] <hsivonen> well, Show Source is now supported with the XML parser
  364. # [22:32] <hsivonen> bug occasionally (depending on how buffer boundaries fall depending on network bursts) the location counting goes to the weeds
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  366. # [22:34] <hsivonen> hmm. I broke something
  367. # [22:41] <hsivonen> *now* Show Source is supported with the XML parser (subject to the heisenbug)
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  371. # [22:51] * hsivonen wonders who the writer of http://www.deitel.com/eBook/tabid/2478/Default.aspx is.
  372. # [22:52] * hsivonen notes Dive Into®
  373. # [22:59] <hendry> hsivonen: i met Mark Pilgrim in SF at the wordpress 2.3 launch party :)
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  376. # [23:03] <hsivonen> hendry: does WP 2.3 support Atom out of the box?
  377. # [23:03] <hendry> hsivonen: evidently though i have not checked
  378. # [23:03] <hendry> hsivonen: tbh i prefer ikiwiki.info
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  400. # Session Close: Sat Sep 29 00:00:00 2007

The end :)