/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-09-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Sep 30 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  52. # [11:53] <mpt> jgraham, a genealogical table is something HTML happens not to have semantics for, I think
  53. # [11:53] <mpt> At least, it doesn't make *semantic* sense to have to change the rowspan of every cell in the table whenever you add a generation, but that's what <table> requires
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  55. # [11:56] <mpt> A genealogical table has the same semantics as a cladistic tree (e.g. <http://www.gingersrus.com/CostaceaeCladistics.gif>), but the latter happens not to have a tabular layout
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  58. # [12:03] <mpt> And once you've started trying to mark up the semantics of purely-hierarchical trees, you're just one line away from not-purely-hierarchical trees such as <http://www.lyricsvault.net/history/MusicGenealogy.jpg> and <http://www.levenez.com/unix/history.html>
  59. # [12:05] <othermaciej> so what markup would be appropriate for a general directed graph?
  60. # [12:07] <othermaciej> it seems like marking such a thing up in a purely semantic way and yet still getting the desired presentation is a rather difficult problem
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  62. # [12:26] <mpt> Isn't that what RDF was supposed to be for?
  63. # [12:26] * mpt ducks
  64. # [12:27] * jgraham is worried he was thinking exactly the same thing at the same moment
  65. # [12:27] <jgraham> But it doesn't solve the presentation problem, of course
  66. # [12:28] <mpt> XSLT into SVG?
  67. # [12:28] * mpt is spewing random acronyms at this point, and should probably be ignored
  68. # [12:29] <mpt> It's not as if browser layout engines have the smarts to lay out trees like that anyway
  69. # [12:30] <mpt> Implementing it would be like implementing tables from scratch, squared
  70. # [12:30] <jgraham> But you still need to be able to get at the underlying data somehow. Maybe if you throw a little XBL into the mix you can bind the svg representation to the underlying data
  71. # [12:30] <mpt> (because for example one branch of the family might be pushed lower so as to accommodate the width of another branch higher up)
  72. # [12:31] <jgraham> but I may be misremembering what XBL is capable of
  73. # [12:32] <othermaciej> I'm not sure if XBL has sufficient powers to transform the DOM to dynamically convert RDF to SVG in a way that visually represents the graph
  74. # [12:33] <othermaciej> I guess XBL can always fall back to JS but I am not sure how much JS can manipulate the contents of the shadow tree
  75. # [12:33] <othermaciej> XSLT would only be suitable for static applications
  76. # [12:36] <Philip`> Semantics for its own sake doesn't seem useful - it's useful when it enables things like media independence, but media independence seems infeasible here since a standard visual family tree and a small-screen version and an aural version will have to be completely different presentations and each carefully designed to be understandable
  77. # [12:36] <othermaciej> I think datagrid can provide the semantics for things that are truly a tree but would require major styling heroics to get the presentation right
  78. # [12:37] <othermaciej> if you had a family tree *editor* though, you'd definitely want to be able to edit an underlying data model and have the presentation reflect that
  79. # [12:37] <Philip`> (http://www.pointerklubben.se/stamtavla.asp?Id=S35236/97 in Opera's Small Screen mode silently loses most of the page's information)
  80. # [12:40] <jgraham> I wonder how successful existing desktop family tree editors are at being accessible. I would guess "not very"
  81. # [12:40] <mpt> The standard interchange format for genealogical info is called Gedcom
  82. # [12:41] <mpt> I think it predates XML in the same way as MathML does
  83. # [12:41] <mpt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEDCOM
  84. # [12:43] * mpt remembers trying to implement a Gedcom parser as a CS project
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  89. # [13:06] * zcorpan added <datatemplate>, <rule condition mode>, <nest filter mode> to html5-elements
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  92. # [13:09] * zcorpan now also added ref, registrationmark and template to the global attributes
  93. # [13:18] <jgraham> http://james.html5.org/temp/html5lib-0.10.zip
  94. # [13:18] <jgraham> Pre-release for testing
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  100. # [13:46] <Lachy> I upgraded the blog to Wordpress 2.3
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  127. # [19:01] <jgraham> bzed: re: setuptools; I think it still makes sense for people who are not running Debian. It's not as simple or reliable as I would like but nevertheless has some nice features.
  128. # [19:31] <bzed> jgraham: we had a long discussion with the fedora people about setuptools and co some time ago, I think all agreed that setuptools is broken by design and seems to have an upstream which does not react on the wishes of users and the distributions
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  132. # [20:51] <bzed> jgraham: and even from a user's point of view - I too often had completely random problems with setuptools, switching to distutils fixed that easily.
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  148. # [23:49] <Philip`> <header><span> ...non-inline content... </span></header> seems to be useful for making Firefox parse correctly, but I expect it's annoyingly nonconforming :-(
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  150. # [23:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: your html4 parser should perhaps know about boolean attributes and set appropriate values when they appear as minimized
  151. # [23:56] <zcorpan> hsivonen: see the last error in http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.apple.com%2F
  152. # [23:58] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah. Annoyingly, the relevant bug is marked blocking 1.9- and I'm not clever enough to work out how to make unknown elements work with the Mozilla residual style thing
  153. # [23:58] <jgraham> Bug relevant to making unknown elements able to contain blocks, that is
  154. # Session Close: Mon Oct 01 00:00:00 2007

The end :)