/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-10-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 02 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  21. # [01:32] <Hixie> jgraham: there are examples of tables without headers on my most recent blog entry
  22. # [01:32] <Hixie> also, i imagine the spec might have some
  23. # [01:32] <Hixie> though i'm not sure
  24. # [02:01] <Philip`> Opera parses <section><p>A</section><section><p>B</section> annoyingly
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  26. # [02:01] <Philip`> html5lib parses it even more annoyingly
  27. # [02:02] <Hixie> oh?
  28. # [02:02] <Hixie> indeed
  29. # [02:02] <Philip`> parsetree.validator.nu parses it nicely
  30. # [02:03] <Philip`> html5lib bug?
  31. # [02:03] <Philip`> Oh, no
  32. # [02:03] <Hixie> i think parsetree.validator.nu is buggy, technically
  33. # [02:04] <Philip`> It's intentionally undefined behaviour in html5lib
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  35. # [02:04] <Philip`> >>> print html5lib.HTMLParser().parse('<section><p>a</section><section><p>b</section>').printTree()
  36. # [02:04] <Philip`> Warning: Undefined behaviour for end tag sectionWarning: Undefined behaviour for end tag section#document
  37. # [02:05] <kingryan> Philip`: does it give:
  38. # [02:05] <kingryan> <html><head></head><body><section><p>a<section></section></p><p>b
  39. # [02:05] <kingryan> </p></section></body></html>
  40. # [02:05] <kingryan> ?
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  42. # [02:05] * Philip` just adds </p>s to his code
  43. # [02:06] <Philip`> kingryan: It does
  44. # [02:06] <kingryan> ok, that's what the ruby port of html5lib gives
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  117. # [11:08] <hsivonen> "parsetree.validator.nu is buggy, technically" ??
  118. # [11:08] <hsivonen> in what way?
  119. # [11:13] <hsivonen> source hilite for errors that fire on the tree construction layer should be much better now
  120. # [11:16] <a-ja> henri, have a dialog test case you can send thru it?
  121. # [11:26] <a-ja> hsivonen: henri, anyone? have a working dialog test case you can send thru conformance checker? mine's not working for some reason
  122. # [11:27] <hsivonen> a-ja: hmm. I think that part of the conformance checker has not been revised in a while
  123. # [11:28] <hsivonen> that is, it is older than the part of spec about dialog
  124. # [11:28] <hsivonen> will fix in due course, of course
  125. # [11:28] <a-ja> i can't seemt to get it to like dialog anywhere
  126. # [11:29] <hsivonen> yeah
  127. # [11:29] <jgraham> Hixie: Arguably most of those tables would benefit from some headers with display:none. In fact, arguably cells like the #bits could be considered header cells for the field below, although I guess that might make the user experience worse in a screenreader
  128. # [11:29] <jgraham> since the tables are so small
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  130. # [11:30] <a-ja> fwiw....if i change it to dl, i don't think it chokes on paragraphs in a dd like it should either
  131. # [11:33] <hsivonen> a-ja: when you have subtree rooted at an unknown element, Jing spews a lot of garbage about everything in the subtree. I need to suppress that in due course.
  132. # [11:34] <a-ja> unknown? tried right under body, in a div, in an article.....nada
  133. # [11:34] <hsivonen> a-ja: dialog is unknown for now
  134. # [11:34] <a-ja> oh....no wonder :)
  135. # [11:35] <a-ja> btw...defended your thesis/project yet?
  136. # [11:35] <hsivonen> a-ja: I know it sucks that the schema layer is out of date. sorry. but these other guys keep asking for front end features like textarea and file upload. :-)
  137. # [11:36] <jgraham> There is a table in the spec representing a matrix which, in the absence of MathML seems like a fair enough use case for a table with no headers
  138. # [11:36] <hsivonen> a-ja: the thesis was accepted earlier this year
  139. # [11:36] <hsivonen> a-ja: I graduated on May 21
  140. # [11:36] <a-ja> congrats!!
  141. # [11:36] <hsivonen> thanks
  142. # [11:37] <a-ja> hsivonen: i like the recent f/e work...time well spent
  143. # [11:38] <hsivonen> thanks
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  145. # [11:39] * a-ja won't even mention an addon I'd like <g>
  146. # [11:41] * hsivonen is now curious
  147. # [11:41] * a-ja imagines it's probably already in the works
  148. # [11:42] <a-ja> being able to check local pages
  149. # [11:42] <hsivonen> a-ja: as in file upload field?
  150. # [11:42] * a-ja wasn't gonnamention it til someone dragged it outta me
  151. # [11:42] <hsivonen> a-ja: if you are willing to run a small command-line client, you already can: http://about.validator.nu/html5check.py
  152. # [11:43] <hsivonen> a-ja: it uploads to validator.nu
  153. # [11:43] <hsivonen> a-ja: if you need it to be confidential, you could run your own copy of the back end on localhost
  154. # [11:44] <hsivonen> JVM startup time sucks, so it is a good idea to keep the Java process running instead of making a Java-base command-line tool
  155. # [11:44] <hsivonen> (except with gcj, which would be hard)
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  157. # [11:45] <a-ja> snagged it...may give it a shot later on. snooze time soon
  158. # [11:45] <a-ja> tks
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  160. # [11:51] <hsivonen> input type='file' is unsuccessful (i.e. absent from the data set) if there's no file selected, right?
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  168. # [12:45] <mpt> http://notafront.org/~agit/compilation/imgpages/image401.html
  169. # [13:01] <jruderman> http://notafront.org/~agit/compilation/imgpages/image393.html
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  201. # [17:33] <annevk> collegue pointed this out: http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2007-m09/0229.html (unicode-ml, unicode)
  202. # [17:39] <gsnedders> annevk: needs auth to view
  203. # [17:39] <annevk> (username, password) does that help?
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  205. # [17:39] <gsnedders> I tried that
  206. # [17:40] <gsnedders> But now looking again, it's -ml not -mi
  207. # [17:40] <gsnedders> Now it works :)
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  209. # [17:46] <virtuelv> heh, http://wafful.org/~takesako/html20hacks/browser-detect3.html
  210. # [17:46] <virtuelv> there's some error handling to be handled
  211. # [17:47] <annevk> ouch
  212. # [17:48] <gsnedders> how do we define error handling without breaking backwards compat? :P
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  214. # [17:49] <virtuelv> none of my text editors can even open that html document properly
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  216. # [17:55] <annevk> opening it in a hexeditor doesn't make me much wiser :)
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  218. # [18:02] <zcorpan> what's appropriate alt text for that <img>? :)
  219. # [18:04] <gsnedders> wow. IIS's HTTP parsing is so illogical. No other HTTP implementation has any parser so illogical, as far as I can see.
  220. # [18:13] * Quits: Ducki_ (i=Ducki@nrdh-d9b98069.pool.mediaWays.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  221. # [18:22] <zcorpan> http://parsetree.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwafful.org%2F%7Etakesako%2Fhtml20hacks%2Fbrowser-detect3.html&submit=Print+Tree
  222. # [18:23] <zcorpan> seems that opera is compliant and the others aren't ;)
  223. # [18:24] <zcorpan> so in the future when other browsers get compliant, they will be sniffed as being opera
  224. # [18:24] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@posom.com) (Remote closed the connection)
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  233. # [18:46] <zcorpan> <lede>, eh? what's wrong with <b>? :)
  234. # [18:47] <Dashiva> <h2 style="font-size: normal; text-align: left;">
  235. # [18:48] <zcorpan> hmm, heading doesn't seem like a good fit
  236. # [18:48] <zcorpan> you'd also want display:run-in in that case
  237. # [18:49] <virtuelv> annevk: that wafful org thing has evil null bytes in it
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  239. # [18:52] * Quits: BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-2be2a2da0ca59dbc) ("Fades out again…")
  240. # [18:53] <hober> If the lede is the most important sentence in the article, and <strong> increases its contents' importance, why not use <strong> for marking up ledes?
  241. # [18:54] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-76-102-254-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  242. # [18:55] <zcorpan> ok; s/<b>/<strong>/
  243. # [18:55] <Dashiva> hober: The idea is to have something with <stronger> semantics than just 'important' :)
  244. # [18:56] <hober> Dashiva: sure, and I think I'm pretty supportive of such an element, actually. I was just thinking that <strong> is a better semantic match than <b>
  245. # [18:56] <Dashiva> point
  246. # [18:57] <zcorpan> <b> and <strong> are equivalent in my brain
  247. # [19:06] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  248. # [19:06] * gsnedders slaps zcorpan
  249. # [19:08] <annevk> virtuelv, that explains view source in Opera and save as in Opera...
  250. # [19:09] <annevk> hober, I agree that <lede> is not needed and that <strong> is sufficient
  251. # [19:10] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  252. # [19:11] <virtuelv> annevk: it breaks virtually every editor I open it in
  253. # [19:12] <virtuelv> gedit: The entire file is garbled
  254. # [19:13] <annevk> komodo does like Opera (everything after first null byte is lost)
  255. # [19:13] <virtuelv> yes
  256. # [19:13] <virtuelv> which is weird, given that scite (which is also based off scintilla) displays them as 'NUL'
  257. # [19:15] <zcorpan> notepad2 insists that the file is utf-16
  258. # [19:15] <annevk> ah, scite is useful
  259. # [19:16] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@posom.com)
  260. # [19:16] <annevk> it also shows that there's a FF between src and = for the Opera image
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  262. # [19:32] <gsnedders> why on earth would Safari scroll down a page on load without any <script> whatsoever!?
  263. # [19:33] <annevk> you want #webkit
  264. # [19:35] * gsnedders needs to write some sort of test case first, though, really
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  279. # [21:15] <gsnedders> how do WF2-supporting browsers currently render @type=number?
  280. # [21:16] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lbca7.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  281. # [21:17] <annevk> test in Opera?
  282. # [21:18] <Dashiva> Opera has up-and-down arrows at the right side
  283. # [21:18] <Dashiva> I never use them, though...
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  300. # [23:05] <hsivonen> http://about.validator.nu/file-temp/
  301. # [23:06] <hsivonen> http://about.validator.nu/textarea-temp/
  302. # [23:06] <Hixie> textarea one should probably not have the "be lax" checkbox
  303. # [23:07] <hsivonen> yeah
  304. # [23:07] <hsivonen> those aren't intended as UI mockups
  305. # [23:07] <hsivonen> just as something that allows the back end to be used before I fix the UI
  306. # [23:07] <Hixie> aah
  307. # [23:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: I may start sending one or two emails about HTTP parsing to whatwg over the next couple of days, FYI
  308. # [23:08] <Hixie> HTTP parsing is probably more usefully sent to the HTTPWG
  309. # [23:09] <Hixie> not sure what i'd do with http feedback on the whatwg list
  310. # [23:09] <Hixie> though feel free to send e-mails asking for feedback
  311. # [23:09] <Hixie> if that's what you mean
  312. # [23:09] <gsnedders> Hixie: yeah, just asking for feedback
  313. # [23:09] <Hixie> cool
  314. # [23:09] <gsnedders> one or two more general comments
  315. # [23:10] * annevk is interested in HTTP parsing
  316. # [23:10] <gsnedders> most of it will all be done privately as it is mainly specific questions for different implementers
  317. # [23:10] <gsnedders> annevk: me too!
  318. # [23:10] <gsnedders> though the fact I'm writing a spec on it might be a slight clue :P
  319. # [23:10] <gsnedders> Hixie: do you know if the list strips reply-to headers?
  320. # [23:10] <annevk> HTTP5?
  321. # [23:11] <gsnedders> annevk: no, just http parsing
  322. # [23:11] <Hixie> gsnedders: no idea off hand
  323. # [23:11] <gsnedders> Hixie: is it worthwhile sending something with a reply-to: me header?
  324. # [23:11] <gsnedders> or would you rather replies just went to the list?
  325. # [23:11] <Hixie> no opinion
  326. # [23:11] <Hixie> either is fine
  327. # [23:16] <othermaciej_> we had an http parsing question come up just today on #webkit
  328. # [23:16] <othermaciej_> (or was it last night?)
  329. # [23:16] <othermaciej_> question was what to do in case of multiple Content-Type headers
  330. # [23:16] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.174) (Nick collision from services.)
  331. # [23:16] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  332. # [23:17] <othermaciej> http spec does not say how to handle multiple instances of headers that do not allow multiple instances
  333. # [23:17] <Hixie> it leaves error handling undefined? shocking
  334. # [23:18] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.96.78)
  335. # [23:19] <annevk> what happens with a stream with multiple Content-Type headers for instance? lots of specs are defined assuming a single such header
  336. # [23:20] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.96.78)
  337. # [23:20] <hober> Wasn't someone working on a real-world HTTP header parsing spec?
  338. # [23:20] <annevk> see above
  339. # [23:21] <hober> Ahh. I was going to suggest that gsnedders talk to whomever it was. :)
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  342. # [23:34] <Philip`> hober: It would be a sign of madness if he did :-)
  343. # [23:34] <hober> indeed.
  344. # [23:47] * Quits: aroben (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  345. # [23:52] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/C327DDAE.6B8F%25jason.cranfordteague@corp.aol.com is beautiful
  346. # [23:55] <jruderman> are any of those urls public?
  347. # [23:55] <gavin_> no
  348. # [23:56] <Hixie> /tag/ is i think
  349. # [23:56] <Hixie> it was also sent to public-html
  350. # [23:56] <annevk> nope
  351. # [23:56] <Hixie> though that doesn't seem to be on that list
  352. # [23:56] <annevk> just www-tag
  353. # [23:56] <Hixie> ah ok
  354. # [23:56] <Hixie> didn't know there were two
  355. # [23:56] * Joins: aroben (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  356. # [23:57] <gavin_> I didn't get it on public-html
  357. # [23:57] <Hixie> hm, i guess not
  358. # [23:57] <Hixie> odd
  359. # [23:57] <Hixie> the e-mail was two words long
  360. # [23:58] <Hixie> it just said "Thanks Susan."
  361. # [23:58] <annevk> if there's a publicly archived version it redirects you to that one automatically or lists all publicly arhived messages (if there are multiple)
  362. # [23:59] <Hixie> it was sent to a bunch of public lists
  363. # [23:59] <Hixie> all the same ones that susan originally e-mailed, in fact
  364. # [23:59] <Hixie> i don't know why it didn't reach any of them
  365. # [23:59] <Hixie> that's weird
  366. # [23:59] <annevk> there's also http://www.w3.org/mid/bb69c1de0709080630x4736dcbbg85c65fd5a7c4c82@mail.gmail.com
  367. # [23:59] <Hixie> nice
  368. # [23:59] <hober> What's the w3c-html-wg list?
  369. # [23:59] <Hixie> hober: the old htmlwg list
  370. # Session Close: Wed Oct 03 00:00:00 2007

The end :)