/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-10-08 / end

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  71. # [13:06] <OmegaJunior> :)
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  77. # [14:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=114
  78. # [14:05] <zcorpan> <audio>'s transparent content model and <figure>'s content model don't seem to work together
  79. # [14:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: in spec or in my impl?
  80. # [14:07] <zcorpan> in the spec
  81. # [14:07] <hsivonen> so does validator.nu have a bug?
  82. # [14:07] <zcorpan> not sure
  83. # [14:08] <OmegaJunior> But audio is embedded content, which is allowed in figure
  84. # [14:08] <zcorpan> yes, however <audio> has a transparent content model
  85. # [14:08] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: Have you checked the latest spec on <audio>? you should do the format fallback using <source> instead of nested <audio>
  86. # [14:09] <OmegaJunior> Semi-transparent, does that make a difference?
  87. # [14:09] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-documents0.html#transparent0
  88. # [14:10] * hsivonen isn't a fan of transparent content models
  89. # [14:10] <OmegaJunior> format fallback instead of nested? The latest spec says to nest source element inside audio element
  90. # [14:11] <OmegaJunior> zcorpan, that part on transparent content model makes my implementation correct and the validator wrong.
  91. # [14:12] <zcorpan> <figure><legend></legend><audio src=x>TEST</audio></figure> isn't conforming because <figure><legend></legend>TEST</figure> isn't
  92. # [14:12] <OmegaJunior> I must say, it's highly confusing.
  93. # [14:12] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: you have two nested <audio> elements
  94. # [14:12] <hsivonen> I'm reviewing the schema for bugs
  95. # [14:12] <zcorpan> it seems to me that this is a bug in the spec
  96. # [14:12] <OmegaJunior> Yes, hsivonen, I do now... I started out with one audio element and two nested sources
  97. # [14:13] <OmegaJunior> I'll change that, but it'll have the same effect.
  98. # [14:13] <hsivonen> IIRC, this is a spec bug
  99. # [14:13] <hsivonen> I think I've mentioned this to Hixie
  100. # [14:15] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: figure wants an embedded content element
  101. # [14:15] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: and <audio> is transparent
  102. # [14:15] <OmegaJunior> Semi-transparent?
  103. # [14:15] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: so the result is that the audio element wants an embedded child too
  104. # [14:15] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: semi is about <source>
  105. # [14:16] <OmegaJunior> OK
  106. # [14:16] <hsivonen> so Validator.nu is unhelpful here, but it's really a spec issue
  107. # [14:16] <OmegaJunior> So removing the figure element should solve that problem
  108. # [14:16] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: yes
  109. # [14:17] <hsivonen> This should probably be fixed by allowing text blocks as figures
  110. # [14:18] <OmegaJunior> Or maybe let media elements be real embed content?
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  112. # [14:18] <zcorpan> they are embedded content
  113. # [14:18] <OmegaJunior> Spec says:
  114. # [14:18] <OmegaJunior> Contexts in which this element may be used:
  115. # [14:18] <OmegaJunior> As the only embedded content child of a figure element.
  116. # [14:18] <OmegaJunior> So use in figure element should be according to spec
  117. # [14:19] <OmegaJunior> thus spec contradicts self
  118. # [14:19] <zcorpan> OmegaJunior: indeed, as we said it's a bug in the spec :)
  119. # [14:19] <OmegaJunior> OK :)
  120. # [14:19] <OmegaJunior> Thanks!
  121. # [14:19] <zcorpan> np
  122. # [14:20] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: use of <audio> in <figure> is OK. but the transparent content model sucks in that case, because then the content of <audio> needs to be embedded content, too
  123. # [14:21] <OmegaJunior> So basically using block-level elements inside an audio element is impossible?
  124. # [14:21] <OmegaJunior> As fallback content?
  125. # [14:22] <zcorpan> yes (since the other context where <audio> is allowed is where strictly inline-level content is allowed)
  126. # [14:23] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: impossible per current spec when audio occurs as the child of figure
  127. # [14:23] <hsivonen> oh, and what zcorpan said
  128. # [14:24] <OmegaJunior> That's going to provide a lot of feedback...
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  130. # [14:24] <OmegaJunior> I can't use block- nor inline-level elements anywhere inside an audio element, according to the validator.
  131. # [14:25] <OmegaJunior> Basically this renders fallback content useless, as you can't provide one or more hyperlinks as alternatives to the content.
  132. # [14:26] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-April/010790.html
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  135. # [14:27] <hsivonen> interestingly, Google didn't find that message with relevant keywords
  136. # [14:27] <OmegaJunior> Did you get an answer to that question?
  137. # [14:30] <OmegaJunior> That required descendant that I'm missing... that might be the embedded content you ask about in your question of last April.
  138. # [14:30] <zcorpan> OmegaJunior: it's probably on the list of open issues
  139. # [14:31] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: I thought Hixie acknowledged it, but I can't find anything to that effect in the logs
  140. # [14:31] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: yes. my guess is that the error goes away if you put an <img> or <embed> there...
  141. # [14:32] <OmegaJunior> I hope this confusion will be edited out before this thing goes live... say, in the next 14 years.
  142. # [14:32] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: I hope so, too.
  143. # [14:33] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: occasionally I take matters into my own hands if the spec says something silly, but in this case I'm going with the letter of the spec
  144. # [14:34] <zcorpan> the email is in the graphics-video folder in http://www.whatwg.org/issues/
  145. # [14:34] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: <font> and style='' would be examples of me overriding the spec optimistically.
  146. # [14:34] <OmegaJunior> OK :)
  147. # [14:41] <OmegaJunior> Well, I finally found something that makes the validator happy
  148. # [14:41] <OmegaJunior> I did enter an embed element into the audio element
  149. # [14:42] <OmegaJunior> And moved my fallback content (what I consider fallback) outside of the figure
  150. # [14:42] <OmegaJunior> But the embed element itself can't have fallback content...
  151. # [14:43] <OmegaJunior> So it's either one of the sources, or an embed, or nothing.
  152. # [14:43] <zcorpan> i would suggest to ignore any error messages regarding <figure><audio>
  153. # [14:44] <OmegaJunior> That works too...
  154. # [14:45] <zcorpan> but links would probably be useful also for people with html5 browsers, so it makes sense to place the links outside the <audio>
  155. # [14:46] <OmegaJunior> Though that is true, it also makes sense to put them inside the element as fallback content.
  156. # [14:46] <zcorpan> yeah, if you want to hide the links from people with html5 browsers
  157. # [14:47] <hsivonen> (fallback is for legacy browsers--not for HTML5 browsers)
  158. # [14:47] <hsivonen> that is, fallback isn't for accessibility or codec fallback
  159. # [14:48] <OmegaJunior> Really?
  160. # [14:48] <OmegaJunior> That's different from what I expected.
  161. # [14:48] <zcorpan> it's like the contents of <iframe>
  162. # [14:49] <zcorpan> browsers that don't support <iframe> will use the contents
  163. # [14:49] <OmegaJunior> Well... I expect Opera to show the fallback content of an iframe if I tell it not to display iframes...
  164. # [14:49] <zcorpan> yes, then you disable support for iframes
  165. # [14:50] <OmegaJunior> And I expect to be able to enter a hyperlink as fallback content, so visitors will be able to browse to the uri themselves.
  166. # [14:50] <OmegaJunior> Those with iframe support don't need that link...
  167. # [14:50] <zcorpan> but you don't get the contents of iframes if the iframe references a 404 or something that is not supported
  168. # [14:50] <zcorpan> exactly
  169. # [14:50] <OmegaJunior> True
  170. # [14:50] <zcorpan> <audio> is the same
  171. # [14:51] <OmegaJunior> But then having only an embed element as fallback of content doesn't cover all bases, does it?
  172. # [14:51] <zcorpan> i don't understand the question
  173. # [14:53] <OmegaJunior> Well, suppose a user agent doesn't know html 5: it won't understand the audio element. Suppose it adheres only to the W3 recommendations of html and doesn't know the embed element either... then the user sees nothing.
  174. # [14:53] <zcorpan> right
  175. # [14:53] <OmegaJunior> Allowing a simple text as fallback content would at least indicate that something should be present.
  176. # [14:54] <zcorpan> yes
  177. # [14:54] <OmegaJunior> Lest we require the user to study the page source...
  178. # [14:55] <OmegaJunior> Thanks for the explanations! I'm heading off.
  179. # [14:55] <zcorpan> cya
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  204. # [16:58] <hsivonen> aaronlev: is this thread on your radar: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-October/012642.html
  205. # [16:58] <aaronlev> hsivonen: barely
  206. # [16:59] <aaronlev> the expert on closed captioning technologies is Larry Goldberg from WGBH
  207. # [16:59] <aaronlev> they invented closed captioning and are on top of technical issues
  208. # [16:59] <aaronlev> i think we should get them into this conversation
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  261. # Session Close: Tue Oct 09 00:00:00 2007

The end :)