/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-10-16 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  73. # [09:30] <Lachy> hmm. I don't like the idea of allowing CURIEs for aria roles.
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  76. # [09:32] <othermaciej> are they CURIEs or QNames?
  77. # [09:33] <othermaciej> or are you allowed to mix both in the same attribute? (shudder)
  78. # [09:33] <Lachy> IIRC, CURIEs are slightly more complicated forms of qnames
  79. # [09:34] <Lachy> I don't know, I haven't finished reading simon's aria-proposal yet
  80. # [09:36] <Lachy> e.g. a curie could be written like role="foo:bar" or role="[foo:bar]".
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  82. # [09:36] <Lachy> yet the processing requirements in the proposal don't seem to deal with the square brackets at all
  83. # [09:38] <othermaciej> my understanding is that CURIEs map to URIs, not [URI, localname] pairs
  84. # [09:38] <othermaciej> they work by concatenating the localname to the prefix URI basically
  85. # [09:38] <othermaciej> rather than producing a qualified name
  86. # [09:38] <Lachy> yeah, something like that.
  87. # [09:39] <othermaciej> which in a way is simpler, but having a mixed list of CURIEs and QNames seems like a bad idea for that very reason
  88. # [09:39] <Lachy> I think zcorpan is just misusing them and should drop them
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  97. # [10:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: I don't like CURIEs either
  98. # [10:42] <hsivonen> It seems to me it went like this:
  99. # [10:42] <hsivonen> 1) URLs are invented as network resource locators.
  100. # [10:43] <hsivonen> 2) Locators are theoretically generalized into generic *identifiers*
  101. # [10:43] <hsivonen> 3) People start using them as identifiers that are not supposed to be dereferenced
  102. # [10:43] <hsivonen> 4) They are too long as identifiers
  103. # [10:44] <hsivonen> 5) People invent complex (and in the face of DOM manipulation, brittle) ways to compress them
  104. # [10:44] <hsivonen> Better fix: not using URLs as identifiers and only using them as network locators
  105. # [10:45] <Lachy> right, so it all went wrong as step 2.
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  110. # [12:01] <hsivonen> are there actual implementations that support SVG 1.2 Tiny scripting via Java jars?
  111. # [12:02] <hsivonen> If I had to guess, I'd guess that scripting via ECMAScript would be a better match for Gecko/WebKit/Opera
  112. # [12:03] <heycam> hsivonen, it doesn't do 1.2 Tiny (just 1.1 full plus a couple of 1.2-isms), but Batik does support the scripting via Java jars
  113. # [12:05] <hsivonen> heycam: OK. interesting.
  114. # [12:05] <heycam> i don't know if many people use the features though
  115. # [12:05] <hsivonen> heycam: how do they handle security? that seems like a fast way to classloader hell
  116. # [12:05] <heycam> s/features/feature/
  117. # [12:06] <heycam> i believe it has the same restrictions as that of ecmascript running in the document
  118. # [12:08] <heycam> i.e. those classes won't be able to write to the filesystem, open non-same-origin connections, etc.
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  121. # [14:13] <hendry> are label elements depreciated? e.g. <label for="to" >
  122. # [14:13] <zcorpan> no
  123. # [14:14] <zcorpan> or at least i don't depreciate them :)
  124. # [14:14] <hendry> ok, I must be using them wrong http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fletter.dabase.com%2F
  125. # [14:14] <zcorpan> you mix block and inline
  126. # [14:15] <hendry> i keep doing that
  127. # [14:15] <hendry> also what's the story with size on the input tag?
  128. # [14:15] <zcorpan> wf2 says size="" is deprecated
  129. # [14:16] <zcorpan> will likely be dropped altogether when wf2 is integrated
  130. # [14:16] <zcorpan> (though personally i don't think size="" should be dropped)
  131. # [14:19] <zcorpan> (form also requires block children currently, also in html4 strict, so you need blocks around your labels)
  132. # [14:20] <hendry> thanks zcorpan
  133. # [14:22] <hendry> what's wrong with : input type="submit"
  134. # [14:23] <zcorpan> <input> is also inline
  135. # [14:23] <zcorpan> though the error message seems wrong
  136. # [14:23] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ^
  137. # [14:24] <hendry> yeah ...
  138. # [14:24] <zcorpan> aha, hidden inputs are allowed in that context
  139. # [14:24] <hendry> safari doesn't seem to render the text in the opening/closing inputs, whilst firefox does
  140. # [14:24] <zcorpan> so the schema expects type="hidden"
  141. # [14:24] <hendry> zcorpan: very good
  142. # [14:26] <zcorpan> hendry: you have a newline at the beginning of the value=""
  143. # [14:26] <hendry> is there something in WF2 I wonder, which is supposed to clear a form. For example test says "Firstname Lastname", and when editing that input it's cleared
  144. # [14:27] <zcorpan> hendry: though since it works in other browsers it's probably a bug in safari
  145. # [14:27] <hendry> oh yes
  146. # [14:27] <zcorpan> hendry: that would be placeholder="", not in html5 yet
  147. # [14:28] <hendry> oh right
  148. # [14:28] <hendry> I guess I need some JS in there
  149. # [14:28] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/js/placeholder.js
  150. # [14:29] <hendry> i thought you could do something like <input>what value would be</input>
  151. # [14:29] <hendry> looks like you can't
  152. # [14:30] <zcorpan> no, <input> is a void element
  153. # [14:31] <hendry> thanks again zcorpan
  154. # [14:34] <zcorpan> welcome
  155. # [14:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan: hendry fixed the page before I had a chance to check the message
  156. # [14:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan: however, my crystal ball tells me the message is correct but for a non-obvious reason
  157. # [14:36] <hendry> hsivonen: i'll unfix it one mo
  158. # [14:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan: <input type='hidden'> is block
  159. # [14:36] <hendry> how come placeholder only works on webkit? http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/js/placeholder-demo.htm
  160. # [14:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes, i figured
  161. # [14:37] <hendry> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fletter.dabase.com%2F
  162. # [14:37] <zcorpan> hendry: because they invented it and no-one else has copied it yet?
  163. # [14:38] <hsivonen> hendry: yeah, the error is correct (type=hidden would work) but unintuitive
  164. # [14:39] <zcorpan> hendry: the script should make it work in other browsers, but rely on some features that are not widely implemented
  165. # [14:39] <zcorpan> s/rely/it relies/
  166. # [14:39] <zcorpan> such as the DOMFocusIn event
  167. # [14:40] <zcorpan> should work in opera 9.5
  168. # [14:40] <hendry> damn, my backspace in MacOSX Terminal is misbehaving
  169. # [14:41] <hsivonen> hendry: when did you switch to non-DFSG software?
  170. # [14:42] <hendry> hsivonen: at work I use MacOSX :)
  171. # [14:42] <hendry> zcorpan: how does placeholder and textarea supposed to work? http://dabase.com/placeholder.html
  172. # [14:43] <hendry> it's just for input I think (looking at the JS)
  173. # [14:43] <zcorpan> hendry: placeholder for textarea is not implemented in webkit
  174. # [14:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does my name=''/usemap='' suggestion make sense in your opinion?
  175. # [14:46] <hsivonen> (formulating a researched opinion was tedious)
  176. # [14:47] <hendry> i just put a reset input on letter.dabase.com. Amazed that it doesn't actually clear the forms. It puts them how they were before
  177. # [14:47] <hsivonen> reset suck
  178. # [14:47] <hsivonen> s
  179. # [14:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes, i think it makes sense. it's pretty much what i suggested, also
  180. # [14:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: uh, right. so it is. :-)
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  186. # [17:42] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  187. # [17:42] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 04:10:22
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  190. # [18:00] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cstyle%3Ea-%C3%85%20{border%3Asolid}a-%C3%A5%20{color%3Ablue}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%3Cbody%3E%3Ca-%C3%A5%3Ea%3C%2Fa-%C3%85%3Eb
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  192. # [18:01] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cstyle%3Ea[%C3%85]%20{border%3Asolid}a[%C3%A5]%20{color%3Ablue}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%3Cbody%3E%3Ca%20%C3%A5%3Ea%3Ca%20%C3%85%3Eb
  193. # [18:03] <zcorpan> it seems browsers differ from what html5 says for those
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  197. # [18:24] <jacobolus> zcorpan: the behavior for those differs in webkit/gecko for me
  198. # [18:26] <jacobolus> that is, gecko sees </a-Å> as a closing tag for <a-å>, but webkit does not
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  202. # [18:35] <zcorpan> jacobolus: indeed; webkit is per html5
  203. # [18:36] <jacobolus> so were you just pointing that out? or suggesting the spec be to gecko's behavior, or… ?
  204. # [18:36] <zcorpan> the former
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  206. # [18:39] <zcorpan> though html5 also needs to define what the case sensitivity is for elements and attributes wrt selectors
  207. # [18:39] <zcorpan> ascii-case insensitive makes sense, but doesn't match browsers
  208. # [18:40] <zcorpan> or it matches opera, actually
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  219. # [19:21] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/tools/js/designmode-viewer/ -- create a list and press "indent"
  220. # [19:21] <zcorpan> all browsers nest lists directly without an <li> in between
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  257. # [22:37] <mpt> kingryan!
  258. # [22:38] <mpt> A few days ago you were wondering whether anyone uses "*" in URLs
  259. # [22:38] <kingryan> I was?
  260. # [22:38] <mpt> Darn, I've been saving up an example for you all this time and now you don't even remember :-)
  261. # [22:39] <kingryan> were we talking about comments in manifests?
  262. # [22:39] <mpt> One moment, I'll find out
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  264. # [22:41] <mpt> Oct 04 12:47:45 <Hixie> blimey URIs use a lot of symbols. ok if we're to allow comments at end of lines we have to have a comment delimited that isn't one of + - . : / @ _ ~ % ! $ & ' ( ) * , ; = [ ] ? #
  265. # [22:41] <kingryan> right
  266. # [22:41] <kingryan> * can't be used b/c its part of URL syntax
  267. # [22:41] <mpt> ...
  268. # [22:42] <mpt> Oct 04 12:55:09 <kingryan> what about '*' ?
  269. # [22:42] <mpt> ...
  270. # [22:42] <mpt> Oct 04 12:55:45 * kingryan has no idea where * is used in URLs
  271. # [22:42] <mpt> There we go
  272. # [22:42] <mpt> anyway
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  274. # [22:42] <mpt> One popular example of * in URLs is the Wayback Machine.
  275. # [22:42] <kingryan> ah yeah, I think I've seen that
  276. # [22:42] <mpt> e.g. <http://web.archive/org/*/http://www.whatwg.org/> (here, "*" means "show me all the versions you have")
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  279. # [22:51] * jgraham just added some tests that ruby html5lib ought to fail
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  283. # [22:52] <kingryan> jgraham: I take that as a challenge :)
  284. # [22:52] <jgraham> specifically I just added logic to the python side to assume utf-8 when utf-16 is found in the meta pre-parse algorithm
  285. # [22:52] <kingryan> is that in the spec?
  286. # [22:52] <jgraham> this is what hsivonen seems to do
  287. # [22:53] <jgraham> Since it's impossible for any file that is actually utf-16 encoded to be detected by the pre-parse it doesn't seem unreasonable
  288. # [22:53] <jgraham> but it's not in the spec yet
  289. # [22:53] <kingryan> yeah
  290. # [22:53] <jgraham> We were failing on real files because of this
  291. # [22:54] <kingryan> I see
  292. # [22:54] <kingryan> the python tests are failing for me now
  293. # [22:55] <jgraham> Oh.
  294. # [22:55] <kingryan> LookupError: unknown error handler name ' replace'
  295. # [22:55] <kingryan> from
  296. # [22:55] <kingryan> File "/Users/ryan/projects/html5lib/python/tests/test_encoding.py", line 18, in encodingTest
  297. # [22:55] <kingryan> stream = inputstream.HTMLInputStream(data,chardet=False)
  298. # [22:55] <kingryan> File "/Users/ryan/projects/html5lib/python/src/html5lib/inputstream.py", line 61, in __init__
  299. # [22:55] <kingryan> ' replace')
  300. # [22:56] <kingryan> looks like the space before 'replace' might be a problem
  301. # [22:57] <jgraham> hmm wfm
  302. # [22:57] <kingryan> fwiw, I'm running it via 'sh runtests.sh'
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  305. # [22:58] <hsivonen> the sniffing part of the spec changed after I did my impl
  306. # [22:59] <jgraham> OK, so I removed the whitespace
  307. # [23:01] <jgraham> hsivonen: I don't think it covers the case of <meta charset="UTF-16"> in the current version
  308. # [23:01] <jgraham> assuming the <meta> is detected by the pre-parser
  309. # [23:01] <jgraham> it works if the <meta> is not in the first 512 bytes though
  310. # [23:03] <jgraham> (the spec that is)
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  312. # [23:07] <hsivonen> jgraham: IIRC, I did with UTF-16 what someone from Apple said WebKit does
  313. # [23:08] <hsivonen> jgraham: IIRC, UTF-16 in meta needs to be taken to mean UTF-8 for Web compat
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  319. # [23:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, I think I remember othermaciej saying that; which is also what the comment in your source says :)
  320. # Session Close: Wed Oct 17 00:00:00 2007

The end :)