/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-10-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 17 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:02] <kingryan> ruby version of htm5lib updated to do utf-8 instead of utf-16 for meta@charset
  5. # [00:04] <jgraham> :)
  6. # [00:06] * Philip` discovers that gitweb outputs actual XHTML
  7. # [00:06] <Philip`> though I only discovered that because I got a well-formedness error while trying to use it
  8. # [00:08] <kingryan> Philip`: is it really xhtml then ?
  9. # [00:08] <kingryan> :)
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  39. # [03:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: off hand i think we can allow name="" on <map> if we think it's worth it. i think people have requested it before.
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  70. # [07:35] <Hixie> one of the 300 new features in leopard seems remarkably useless
  71. # [07:35] <Hixie> an on-screen braille display.
  72. # [07:36] <othermaciej> the VoiceOver team wants everything made available through assistive technologies to also be on screen, for the sake of collaboration
  73. # [07:39] * Quits: polin8 (n=brian@c-75-71-72-175.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  74. # [07:40] <Hixie> i also like "support for open standards popular in the UNIX community such as the OASIS Open Document Format (ODF) or ECMA’s Office XML"
  75. # [07:40] <Hixie> whoever wrote this document has a highly tuned sense of humour
  76. # [07:40] <othermaciej> marketing? sense of humor?
  77. # [07:42] <Hixie> calling OOXML a standard "popular in the UNIX community" is funny :-P
  78. # [07:42] <Hixie> marketing or not :-P
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  80. # [07:45] <Hixie> the tag is floating this idea of starting a subgroup to decide the semantics of http
  81. # [07:45] * Hixie wonders why that isn't the httpwg's job
  82. # [07:49] <othermaciej> why does http need semantics?
  83. # [07:49] <othermaciej> I thought it was a network protocol
  84. # [07:49] <Hixie> i didn't ask
  85. # [07:49] <othermaciej> are they going to define the semantics of TCP next?
  86. # [07:49] <Hixie> it seemed unwise to step into that discussion
  87. # [07:50] <othermaciej> maybe we should replace TCP with RDF triples sent over IP
  88. # [07:50] <hober> ethernet-over-RDF-triples
  89. # [07:50] <Hixie> i'm guessing it is indeed related to the SEMANTIC WEB though
  90. # [07:50] <Hixie> oh wait, it's Semantic Web
  91. # [07:57] <othermaciej> I like the use of all caps
  92. # [08:00] <hober> We could call some kind of pragmatic compromise between the RDF folk and the real world "the title-cased Semantic Web"
  93. # [08:02] <Hixie> holy crap
  94. # [08:02] <Hixie> microsoft actually did something to support html5
  95. # [08:02] <Hixie> http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20071016092352827
  96. # [08:03] <Hixie> (see in particular the seventh paragraph)
  97. # [08:07] <jruderman> causing that group to "grind to a halt" helps html5?
  98. # [08:08] <Hixie> read the seventh paragraph
  99. # [08:09] <jruderman> the one that starts with
  100. # [08:09] <jruderman> The result is that a very important committee has, in the words of its Secretariat Manager in frequent pleas to the non-responsive members, "ground to a halt."
  101. # [08:09] <jruderman> ?
  102. # [08:09] <Hixie> yes
  103. # [08:09] <Hixie> second sentence
  104. # [08:09] <Hixie> specifically, the listed specs
  105. # [08:10] <jruderman> 'The impact is significant, since this is the committee that controls standards such as RELAX NG (ISO/IEC 19757 Part 2), Schematron (ISO/IEC 19757 Part 3) and Topic Maps (ISO/IEC 13250) – not to mention ODF and PDF (if will be interesting to see if participation increases when Microsoft's PDF-competing XML Paper Specification advances to SC 34 from Ecma, where it is currently in preparation).'
  106. # [08:10] <Hixie> yeah
  107. # [08:10] <Hixie> microsoft have managed to do what i've never been able to even work out how to do
  108. # [08:10] <Hixie> kill relaxng and schematron :-P
  109. # [08:10] <Hixie> not to mention odf and pdf :-P
  110. # [08:10] <jruderman> ahh
  111. # [08:10] <jruderman> hehe
  112. # [08:11] <Hixie> seriously though, it's amazing how microsoft can screw things up
  113. # [08:11] <Hixie> i'm really glad we have the html5 work structured in a way that they can't do that
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  115. # [08:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: have you tried to work out how to kill RELAX NG and Schematron? :-)
  116. # [08:15] <hsivonen> occasionally, conformance requirements may look like an attempt :-)
  117. # [08:15] <Hixie> uh... no comment!
  118. # [08:15] * Hixie hides
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  121. # [08:16] <karlUshi> back
  122. # [08:16] <karlUshi> network trouble
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  128. # [09:23] <hsivonen> html5.validator.nu now does ASCII case-insensitive comparisons for enumerated attribute values
  129. # [09:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: your blog front page uses size='' on <input> but you deprecated it in WF2 :-)
  130. # [09:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: isn't your blog a use case?
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  133. # [09:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: it has to do so to validate, iirc
  134. # [09:30] <Hixie> or there was something along those lines
  135. # [09:31] <Hixie> or maybe that's the rows= on textarea
  136. # [09:31] <Hixie> i dunno, i wrote my blog software over half a decade ago :-P
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  141. # [09:51] <Hixie> is Brady Eidson here?
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  145. # [10:28] <hsivonen> I have to wonder if RFC 4646 precision in language tagging is actully useful on the Web...
  146. # [10:30] <Hixie> othermaciej: so the real question is what API do we do first -- because if we're ever going to have a non-transaction API, we should work out what we want the names to look like today
  147. # [10:30] <Hixie> so we don't paint ourselves into a corner
  148. # [10:31] <othermaciej> Hixie: what would be nice is if the no-transcation version could have the decorated name, so that we could be confident it could be added later without insanity
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  150. # [10:38] <othermaciej> if you had both and wanted short names I'd suggest startTransaction and execute
  151. # [10:38] <othermaciej> or startSqlTransaction / executeSql
  152. # [10:38] <othermaciej> (well, relatively short names)
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  154. # [10:45] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think the big remaining issue with changeVersion is that you really want a version change to be done atomically with the schema upgrade transaction
  155. # [10:46] <othermaciej> Hixie: I do not think there is a way to use the current API to do that
  156. # [10:47] <othermaciej> Hixie: if changeVersion opened a transaction and let you do the schema upgrade from the callback, with the version change rolled back if the transaction fails, that would work
  157. # [10:47] <othermaciej> I guess I should email that
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  162. # [11:01] <Hixie> othermaciej: i just figured people would change the version from 1.0 to 2.0-updating, do the update, then change it to 2.0
  163. # [11:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: yeah but it's unnecessary to expose the intermediate state, and I believe fixing the issue is not particularly difficult implementation-wise
  164. # [11:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: (i was trying to avoid making the changeVersion() stuff integrate too closely with the sql stuff to avoid making it hard to implement without changes to, e.g., sqlite)
  165. # [11:02] <Hixie> yeah
  166. # [11:03] <othermaciej> it's likely the version will be stored in a sqlite table anyway
  167. # [11:03] <Hixie> i guess
  168. # [11:04] <othermaciej> it just needs to not be exposed to user sql code
  169. # [11:04] <Hixie> the main reason i don't like startSqlTransaction() btw is that it looks unbalanced -- it does the same as executeSql() and has the same arguments but uses a different name
  170. # [11:04] <othermaciej> although honestly if it was, you could do things like atomic test-and-set on the version as part of your upgrade
  171. # [11:04] <Hixie> well the easiest from the author point of view is extending SQL to have version-related statements
  172. # [11:04] <Hixie> but i really don't want to do that
  173. # [11:05] <Hixie> we _could_ just define a table
  174. # [11:05] <othermaciej> it doesn't need that, just a reserved table name
  175. # [11:05] <Hixie> but that would get us into issues like schema descriptions and types
  176. # [11:05] <Hixie> which is an area i _really_ want to avoid for now
  177. # [11:05] <Hixie> at least until we have interop with two implementations
  178. # [11:05] <othermaciej> with a reserved column for the version
  179. # [11:05] <othermaciej> I will ask my co-workers tomorrow what they think
  180. # [11:05] <Hixie> k
  181. # [11:07] <othermaciej> startTransaction() or openTransaction() could be paired with executeSingleStatement(), but then you make that name annoyingly long
  182. # [11:07] <othermaciej> if the names get longer I'd suggest taking sql out and maybe renaming Database to SQLDatabase or something
  183. # [11:07] <othermaciej> I wouldn't expect non-SQL access to the same database to be a super likely prospect
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  185. # [11:27] <Hixie> yeah
  186. # [11:27] <Hixie> i dunno, i like executeSql() as it is
  187. # [11:27] <Hixie> i'm not sure i'm convinced we want a non-transaction version
  188. # [11:27] <Hixie> but transactions do cause issues, especially the lock contention / rollback issue
  189. # [11:28] <Hixie> which i'm not sure authors will handle well
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  191. # [11:33] <Hixie> if ES4 gets generators (and thus continuations) i wonder if people will (ab)use those to turn async APIs into sync APIs
  192. # [11:34] <Hixie> interesting. aaron says you actually get performance _boosts_ from implicit transactions in the real world
  193. # [11:41] <hsivonen> http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg05589.html
  194. # [11:42] <hsivonen> I imagine I can give better error messages, if I keep polishing my Java code instead of doing the one-stop "regexp didn't match" thing
  195. # [11:44] <Hixie> i expect you will end up spending as much time polishing error codes (and making changes to accommodate better reporting) as you do doing everything else put together, on the long term
  196. # [11:44] <Hixie> getting ui right is hard
  197. # [11:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah.
  198. # [11:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: however, I think I can go for cases that casual authors care the most about
  199. # [11:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: for example, I think I'm going to let errors related to the content models of ins and del suck for the foreseeable future
  200. # [11:48] <hsivonen> anyway, I'm going to have to hack Jing soonish
  201. # [11:49] <Hixie> my recommendation once you get to the stage of worrying about error messages is just to instrument your code to log which error messages get reported the most
  202. # [11:49] <Hixie> and start at the top of that pile with the most reported message
  203. # [11:49] <hsivonen> RFC 4646 has all sort of weird internal dependencies: like so subtags are allowed or disallowed based on earlier subtags...
  204. # [11:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: makes sense
  205. # [11:50] <Hixie> for each message: split the message up to be more precise about the exact problem instead of using generic messages; if it's not a generic message, make the message more detailed, with examples and (most important!) instructions on the best way to fix the problem, ideally using the actual author code as a guide
  206. # [11:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: my wild guess is that errors related to old-style internal encoding declaration and to the content model of <div> end up at the top of the pile
  207. # [11:52] <Hixie> yeah
  208. # [11:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: to be honest, it seems to me that banning old-style internal encoding decls is theoretical purity and not solving a problem
  209. # [11:54] <Hixie> it's not theoretical, it's aesthetic
  210. # [11:54] <Hixie> but i agree entirely that it's not solving a problem
  211. # [11:56] <Hixie> changing the DOCTYPE from <!DOCTYPE ...html4...> to <!DOCTYPE HTML> doesn't "solve a problem" either
  212. # [12:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: only if you don't consider the need of obvious failure in old validators a problem that needs solving
  213. # [12:05] <Hixie> ok, refusing doctypes like <!DOCTYPE HTML "bogus">
  214. # [12:06] <Hixie> there are a number of things that the spec requires that are basically just aethetic
  215. # [12:06] <Hixie> especially now that we have well-defined error handling
  216. # [12:06] <Hixie> anyway
  217. # [12:06] <Hixie> long past sleep time
  218. # [12:06] <Hixie> nn
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  221. # [12:53] <hsivonen> "The script subtags 'Qaaa' through 'Qabx' are reserved for private use in language tags."
  222. # [12:53] <hsivonen> joy. RFC 4646 has magic values as well as x- for indicating private use
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  272. # [21:50] <hober> "Which means the *last* thing one should use as a yardstick by which to determine inclusion in a standard, is whether it has been adopted by one or other browser vendor!"
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  274. # [21:51] <hober> I feel like I'm stuck in an episode of Sliders, and am mixing up our world's htmlwg mailing list with some kind of parallel universe's list
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  281. # [23:09] <Dashiva> hober: Which mailing list, which mail?
  282. # [23:11] <hober> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Oct/0203.html
  283. # [23:11] <Dashiva> ah
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  287. # Session Close: Thu Oct 18 00:00:00 2007

The end :)