/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-10-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 19 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  18. # [02:00] <jruderman> Hixie: is bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=400307 a dup of a bug you know about?
  19. # [02:00] <Hixie> not off-hand
  20. # [02:00] <Hixie> but it sounds familiar
  21. # [02:00] <jruderman> it sounds a lot like something you mentioned in a blog post, but i couldn't find a bug report about the issue easily
  22. # [02:00] <Hixie> oh it's definitely known
  23. # [02:00] <Hixie> but i don't know if it's filed
  24. # [02:01] <jruderman> ok
  25. # [02:01] * Hixie finds it silly when people say "We're also greatly interested in making our content accessible, to meet Section 508 requirements."
  26. # [02:01] <jruderman> thanks
  27. # [02:01] <Hixie> how about making your content accessible SO THAT PEOPLE CAN USE IT
  28. # [02:01] <jruderman> hehe
  29. # [02:01] <Hixie> instead of doing it to satisfy the law?
  30. # [02:01] <jacobolus> isn't <a><div>...</div></a> considered illegal by the w3c validator?
  31. # [02:02] <Hixie> yes
  32. # [02:02] <Hixie> it's not valid html
  33. # [02:02] <Hixie> still common though
  34. # [02:02] <jacobolus> right. I think it's quite useful :)
  35. # [02:02] <jacobolus> and was agitating on here at some point for it to be added as valid html5 :)
  36. # [02:02] <jruderman> just because it's invalid doesn't mean firefox is allowed to take packet boundaries into account when parsing it ;)
  37. # [02:03] <Hixie> jacobolus: yeah
  38. # [02:03] <jacobolus> jruderman: sorry, i'm referring to the properly nested version
  39. # [02:03] <jacobolus> jruderman: which is still invalid html 4.01
  40. # [02:03] <Hixie> jruderman: actually per html4, it does
  41. # [02:03] <Hixie> jruderman: per html5 it doesn't though
  42. # [02:03] <jacobolus> jruderman: the badly-nested one is invalid either way, but I agree that it shouldn't depend on packet boundaries :)
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  44. # [02:04] <jruderman> Hixie: why, because html4 doesn't say enough about user agents to distinguish a desk with quotes written on it from a web browser?
  45. # [02:04] <jacobolus> lol
  46. # [02:04] <jruderman> jacobolus: what do you mean by "properly nested"?
  47. # [02:04] <Hixie> jruderman: no, because html4 doesn't say what to do in error cases
  48. # [02:04] <jruderman> jacobolus: i'm talking about <a><div>...</div></a>
  49. # [02:05] <jacobolus> jruderman: oh whoops, sorry i'm confused
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  52. # [02:08] <jacobolus> jruderman: that's odd that firefox breaks on that; it would work if they changed the a to be display:block
  53. # [02:09] <jacobolus> the bug must also require nesting a block element inside an inline <a>, as I never had any issues with block <a>s with divs in them :)
  54. # [02:09] <jruderman> the html parser doesn't take CSS into account, so just adding a { display: block } wouldn't fix the colors
  55. # [02:09] <jacobolus> hrm
  56. # [02:10] <jacobolus> jruderman: does that test case still break?
  57. # [02:10] <jacobolus> because it's working in my Camino
  58. # [02:10] <jruderman> the layout engine has its own issues with display:block elements inside display:inline elements, separate from the html parser issues with block tags "inside" inline tags. the layout engine issues often have {ib} in their summaries.
  59. # [02:11] <jacobolus> so I guess that's fixed in gecko at some point :)
  60. # [02:11] <jruderman> what version of camino are you using?
  61. # [02:11] <Hixie> if it depends on packet boundaries, it might be hard to reproduce
  62. # [02:11] <jruderman> both the reporter and i are using trunk
  63. # [02:11] <jacobolus> jruderman: recent nightly
  64. # [02:11] <jacobolus> jruderman: let me try a firefox 3 alpha from a while ago
  65. # [02:11] <jruderman> hixie: yeah, i was surprised that i was able to reproduce it as the reporter described
  66. # [02:12] <jruderman> jacobolus: are you testing using my testcase or using the reporter's comics page?
  67. # [02:12] <jacobolus> the comic page
  68. # [02:12] <jacobolus> jruderman: but it breaks in FF1.5
  69. # [02:12] <jruderman> i'm using a debug trunk build from last night
  70. # [02:12] <jacobolus> oh, okay
  71. # [02:13] <jruderman> the testcase i attached should show the bug more reliably
  72. # [02:13] <jacobolus> jruderman: well the comic page works on FF 3 alpha, and recent camino nightly, but fails in FF 1.5
  73. # [02:13] <jruderman> but i'm assuming it's the same bug (document.write vs packet boundaries)
  74. # [02:14] <jacobolus> but your test case fails the same way in all three :)
  75. # [02:14] <jruderman> ok
  76. # [02:14] <jacobolus> so not sure what the deal is there :)
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  83. # [02:49] <wiz> this may seem silly, but how do you add songs to a bebo home page?
  84. # [02:49] <wiz> music
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  89. # [03:10] <Hixie> crap i keep forgetting to change the subject line when i select multiple messages
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  91. # [03:11] <Hixie> maybe we should rename loopcount to playcount... sigh
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  94. # [03:14] <Hixie> doublec: yt? are you implementing <video>?
  95. # [03:15] <Hixie> or was it someone else
  96. # [03:15] <doublec> Hixie: yes, that's me
  97. # [03:15] <Hixie> doublec: what do you think of renaming "loopcount" to "playcount"?
  98. # [03:15] <doublec> sounds fine to me
  99. # [03:15] <Hixie> or do you think it's fine as is
  100. # [03:15] <doublec> I've got no problem with a change
  101. # [03:16] * Hixie is ambilivent about whether to change it or not
  102. # [03:27] <jacobolus> playcount sort of implies how many times it has already played, no?
  103. # [03:28] <Hixie> jund
  104. # [03:28] <Hixie> kinda, even
  105. # [03:28] <Hixie> right low it's loopcount and currentloop
  106. # [03:29] <Hixie> but currentloop = 0 means it's the first time through
  107. # [03:29] <Hixie> and loopcount = 1 means to play it once and not loop
  108. # [03:29] <Hixie> and people find this confusing
  109. # [03:29] <Hixie> and i don't know how best to phrase it
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  112. # [04:09] <Hixie> do people prefer <video src="" poster=""> or <video src="" postersrc=""> ?
  113. # [04:12] <doublec> what is poster?
  114. # [04:13] <gavins> the image to be displayed before it starts playing, presumably?
  115. # [04:13] <gavins> a frame from the video, e.g.
  116. # [04:13] <gavins> (like on youtube)
  117. # [04:13] * gavins is now known as gavin
  118. # [04:13] <Hixie> yes
  119. # [04:13] <Hixie> link to a jpeg or png or other img
  120. # [04:14] <othermaciej> it's a poster frame
  121. # [04:14] <Hixie> bbiab
  122. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> Hixie, fwiw, I'd think <video src="" poster=""> -- shorter but still unambiguous.. postersrc doesn't seem necessary
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  125. # [05:00] <Hixie> MikeSmith: k
  126. # [05:16] <jacobolus> poster seems fine :)
  127. # [05:16] <jacobolus> postersrc is unnecessary IMO
  128. # [05:16] <Hixie> k
  129. # [05:17] <jacobolus> but what do I know…
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  137. # [05:59] <Hixie> hm maybe repeatCount, repeatFrom, repeatTo
  138. # [05:59] <Hixie> instead of loopCount, loopStart, loopEnd
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  142. # [06:25] <Hixie> when a <video> is taken out of a Document, it stops playing
  143. # [06:25] <Hixie> so no video or audio is visible
  144. # [06:25] <Hixie> or hearable
  145. # [06:25] <Hixie> (audible, i guess)
  146. # [06:26] <Hixie> but
  147. # [06:26] <Hixie> does the current playback position still advance?
  148. # [06:27] <Hixie> or maybe the audio should still play... that's what we want for <audio>
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  151. # [06:36] <doublec> the problem is, when does it stop, if it continues playing?
  152. # [06:36] <doublec> if you take it out of the document and lose the reference
  153. # [06:36] <doublec> does it play forever?
  154. # [06:37] <doublec> if it's a live stream, does it download forever?
  155. # [06:37] <Hixie> yes.
  156. # [06:37] <Hixie> just like a new Audio() element.
  157. # [06:37] <doublec> that's what the implementation does in firefox at the moment
  158. # [06:37] <doublec> but some people aren't happy about it
  159. # [06:38] <Hixie> what do they suggest instead? we can hardly rely on garbage collection to stop audio.
  160. # [06:38] <doublec> they suggest stopping the audio and vide
  161. # [06:38] <doublec> ie. same as pause
  162. # [06:38] <Hixie> whoen?
  163. # [06:38] <Hixie> when, even
  164. # [06:38] <doublec> when it's removed from the document
  165. # [06:38] <Hixie> ok but what about:
  166. # [06:39] <Hixie> var fx = new Audio('fire.wav');
  167. # [06:39] <Hixie> fx.play();
  168. # [06:39] <Hixie> it's never _in_ the document.
  169. # [06:39] <doublec> i don't disagree
  170. # [06:39] <doublec> just that others do :)
  171. # [06:39] <othermaciej> one-time stop on remove from document seems reasonable to me
  172. # [06:39] <othermaciej> after thinking about it
  173. # [06:39] <othermaciej> even if you let it be started when outside the document
  174. # [06:39] <Hixie> i guess just stopping on remove makes sense
  175. # [06:39] <doublec> actually that's a good idea
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  212. # [11:30] <hendry> hsivonen: my friend wants to use validator.nu, though he has a site that's not external (dumb I know)
  213. # [11:30] <hendry> hsivonen: so can he install your validator locally? apt-get install html-validator
  214. # [11:31] <hendry> hsivonen: oh, i see the source code section :)
  215. # [11:32] <hendry> hsivonen: anyway, I should have a go at packaging it.
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  218. # [11:33] * hendry wonders if validator.nu is on that firefox web-dev plugin
  219. # [11:34] <Dewi> it isn't
  220. # [11:34] <Dewi> however you can supply your own tools
  221. # [11:35] <Dewi> as in your can define URLs it will add to the menu
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  228. # [12:07] <hsivonen> hendry: Validator.nu is not Free as in Debian right now
  229. # [12:07] <hsivonen> hendry: due to Saxon
  230. # [12:08] <hsivonen> hendry: I can take a look at replacing it with Xalan XSLT-C to make the whole thing Free as in Debian
  231. # [12:08] <hsivonen> hendry: (it is Open Source and Free from the FSF POV, though)
  232. # [12:29] <hendry> hsivonen: I think having it in Debian would be great.
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  242. # [16:06] <zcorpan_> r1077: "... add a note to both saying that the fallback content isn't for a12n uses.". Africanization?
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  244. # [16:14] <Dewi> hsivonen: what license is saxon under ?
  245. # [16:14] <Dewi> hsivonen: he doesn't exactly make it easy to tell anymore :(
  246. # [16:17] <hsivonen> Dewi: Saxon 6.x (and, as far as I can tell, the open source version of 8.x) is under MPL 1.0
  247. # [16:18] <hsivonen> Dewi: Debian considers MPL and its derivative licenses like CDDL non-Free for the purposes of the DFSG
  248. # [16:18] <Dewi> hsivonen: oh... is all that in contrib?
  249. # [16:18] <hsivonen> Dewi: all what?
  250. # [16:19] <Dewi> er I mean non-free
  251. # [16:19] <Dewi> hsivonen: well, there's a lot of stuff licensed under the MPL
  252. # [16:19] <Dewi> not least mozilla stuff, I would have thought
  253. # [16:19] <Dewi> all that's available (although with rebadging nowadays)
  254. # [16:20] <hsivonen> Dewi: Mozilla itself is now under a tri-license
  255. # [16:20] <Dewi> oh... yeah, I'm just reading that
  256. # [16:20] <Dewi> I didn't realise.
  257. # [16:20] <Dewi> happen to know why it's considered DFSG unfriendly?
  258. # [16:20] <hsivonen> anyway, I already replaced Saxon with Xalan XSLT-C in my local SVN sandbox
  259. # [16:21] <Dewi> nmind
  260. # [16:21] <Dewi> found a wiki entry on this
  261. # [16:21] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@81-5-133-33.static.nfwebsolutions.com)
  262. # [16:22] * Philip` guesses the C in XSLT-C means something totally different to the C in Xerces-C
  263. # [16:22] <Philip`> (which is a bit confusing)
  264. # [16:22] <Dewi> some people think the apache license is pretty unfree too
  265. # [16:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: yes
  266. # [16:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: actually, it is XSLTC
  267. # [16:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: it compiles XSLT into Java and loads the generated classes into the VM
  268. # [16:24] <Dewi> hsivonen: the wiki has some quotes from july indicating the MPL is acceptable for main
  269. # [16:24] <Dewi> http://wiki.debian.org/DFSGLicenses
  270. # [16:24] <Dewi> hsivonen: but there has clearly been some differing opinions about this
  271. # [16:25] <hsivonen> Dewi: well, that's news to me
  272. # [16:25] <Dewi> I dunno how authoritative Anthony Towns is
  273. # [16:27] <Dewi> I have a feeling I've been banned from his irc channel before :)
  274. # [16:28] <hsivonen> Dewi: based on my time on debian-legal, I very much doubt that Debian as a project was now OK with MPL 1.1 let alone MPL 1.0
  275. # [16:28] <hsivonen> but IANAL, IANADD
  276. # [16:28] <Dewi> hehe
  277. # [16:29] <Dewi> anyway I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious
  278. # [16:33] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com)
  279. # [16:36] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: what's "IANADD"?
  280. # [16:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I Am Not A Debian Developer
  281. # [16:37] <zcorpan_> aha
  282. # [16:38] * zcorpan_ reads about contenteditable/designMode in html5
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  286. # [16:51] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  287. # [17:00] <zcorpan_> are there any unicode characters (other than these) that would uppercase or lowercase to any of these characters: aedhrsAEDHRS
  288. # [17:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ß uppercases to SS
  289. # [17:04] <jacobolus> what about ſ?
  290. # [17:04] <jacobolus> that might uppercase to S as well
  291. # [17:05] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  292. # [17:05] <hsivonen> jacobolus: indeed it does
  293. # [17:05] <hsivonen> javascript:alert("ſ".toUpperCase())
  294. # [17:06] <zcorpan_> thanks
  295. # [17:07] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cdiv%20contenteditable%3E%3Cp%3Ex%3C%2Fp%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Edocument.execCommand(%22selectall%22)%3Bdocument.execCommand(%22formatblock%22%2Cnull%2C%22addre%C3%9F%22)%3C%2Fscript%3E
  296. # [17:13] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cdiv%3E%3Cp%3Ex%3C%2Fp%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.designMode%3D%22on%22%3Bdocument.execCommand(%22selectall%22%2Cnull%2C%22%22)%3Bdocument.execCommand(%22formatblock%22%2Cnull%2C%22%3Caddre%C3%9F%3E%22)%3C%2Fscript%3E for moz
  297. # [17:14] <jacobolus> how likely is it that someone will put ſ or ß in their html tags?
  298. # [17:14] <jacobolus> i guess it's still good to define what happens… but seems like an awfully obscure edge case :)
  299. # [17:15] <hsivonen> jacobolus: it is security-sensitive in the case where not fully clued site developers do element blacklisting instead of white listing
  300. # [17:16] <jacobolus> ah, gotcha :)
  301. # [17:18] <jacobolus> so why only aedhrs?
  302. # [17:23] * Dewi is always impressed to see irssi happily rendering unicode characters on irc
  303. # [17:24] * Philip` is less impressed since he sees A-with-tilde A-with-hat upside-down-question-mark in irssi
  304. # [17:24] <Dewi> Philip`: that probably means your terminal doesn't understand utf-8. tell putty to use utf-8 instead of latin1
  305. # [17:24] <Dewi> (you do use putty, right? :P)
  306. # [17:26] <Dewi> actually now I really think about it, although linux has had pretty good unicode for ages, it wasn't even default in debian until april
  307. # [17:27] <Dewi> s/pretty good/surprisingly good/
  308. # [17:27] <Philip`> I'm using Konsole, with Encoding => Default
  309. # [17:28] <Philip`> With Encoding => utf8 and restarting Konsole, I get A-with-halo upside-down-question-mark instead, which is slightly less broken but still not great :-(
  310. # [17:29] <Dewi> hmm. I don't have konsole. Gnome terminal seems to cope alright, although my unicode fonts in X windows leave something to be desired
  311. # [17:30] <hsivonen> I find I need to start screen with the -U flag to get irssi and the terminal emulator talk UTF-8
  312. # [17:31] <Dewi> oh yeah, I forgot about that
  313. # [17:31] * Dewi has 'defutf8 on' in his .screenrc
  314. # [17:31] <Philip`> Aha, it works fine if I start a new screen/irssi session
  315. # [17:32] <Philip`> but I don't want to restart this one because I'd lose my 179 day irssi uptime :-(
  316. # [17:32] * Dewi laughs.
  317. # [17:33] <Dewi> I actually run into problems if I run irssi that long
  318. # [17:33] <Dewi> it starts to eat an awful lot of memory
  319. # [17:33] <Dewi> possibly because I have 20 windows open and some kind of totally silly scrollback size...
  320. # [17:34] <zcorpan_> jacobolus: the formatblock command only supports certain strings as input
  321. # [17:35] <Dewi> Philip`: what I'd really like, though, would be to have a stable enough internet connection to get a massive *idle* time
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  324. # [17:41] <Philip`> Hmm, I think Unicode is working alright now
  325. # [17:48] <zcorpan_> ☺
  326. # [17:50] <Philip`> That works too :-)
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  350. # [20:33] <othermaciej> darin: I remember you had some JS speedups a while back too
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  356. # [20:47] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i don't have an opinion about naming in general, but i will note that .playIndex is consistent with <select>'s .selectedIndex
  357. # [20:47] <zcorpan_> re http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-October/012807.html
  358. # [20:47] <Hixie> interesting point
  359. # [20:48] <Hixie> feel free to mention that on the thread, i'll look at all the feedback in a few days
  360. # [20:48] <zcorpan_> ok
  361. # [20:48] <Hixie> thanks
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  370. # [22:07] <zcorpan_> hmm, are there any non-obvious objects that implement the Window interface?
  371. # [22:08] <Hixie> no
  372. # [22:08] <zcorpan_> ok
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  395. # Session Close: Sat Oct 20 00:00:00 2007

The end :)