/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-10-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 31 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:10] <bradee-oh> hmmmmm
  7. # [00:11] * Quits: markp_ (n=mark@adsl-221-112-103.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  8. # [00:11] <bradee-oh> Why is it the html5 spec specifically requires SQL API errors to be localized, but not anything else?
  9. # [00:11] <bradee-oh> Hixie: ^, out of curiosity
  10. # [00:12] <Hixie> which other errors are there?
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  12. # [00:13] <jgraham__> Should localisation be a must requirement?
  13. # [00:14] <Hixie> no
  14. # [00:14] <Hixie> should be a should
  15. # [00:14] <jgraham__> the other case of localization in the spec (that I recall) is in <isindex>
  16. # [00:15] <jgraham__> Hixie: Do you want mail on the should/must thing?
  17. # [00:15] <Hixie> fixed
  18. # [00:15] <jgraham__> Ah, OK :)
  19. # [00:15] <bradee-oh> I was wondering if there were any others, but searching the whole spec for "localized" and variants thereof came up blank.
  20. # [00:15] <bradee-oh> Hixie: awesome. thanks
  21. # [00:16] <Hixie> i have a very high motivation right now to keep the sql, offline, and video sections free of known errors
  22. # [00:16] <bradee-oh> Hixie: good to know. I will look more carefully for them just to bug you ;)
  23. # [00:16] <Hixie> it'll probably end on friday :-)
  24. # [00:17] <bradee-oh> well, I know how long I have then
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  26. # [00:17] <bradee-oh> :)
  27. # [00:17] <Hixie> (i told my manager i'd be down to zero on those three areas by friday)
  28. # [00:17] <bradee-oh> so therefore, by friday it will be perfect. no matter what.
  29. # [00:17] <bradee-oh> got it.
  30. # [00:17] <bradee-oh> :P
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  32. # [00:17] <Hixie> (not that he really cares exactly what section I'm working on, but it's a pride thing!)
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  38. # [00:43] * Hixie replies to mail from 2004
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  41. # [00:52] <jgraham__> Apparently Ben is reluctant to use IRC although I'm not sure why
  42. # [00:52] * jgraham__ is now known as jgraham
  43. # [00:52] <Hixie> oh?
  44. # [00:53] <Hixie> that's gonn amake the plenary difficult...
  45. # [00:53] <jgraham> Well I think it might be just some worry about its complexity
  46. # [00:54] <jgraham> which will turn out to be unfounded
  47. # [00:54] <jgraham> but I don't really know
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  51. # [01:12] <Hixie> Lachy_: re http://www.w3.org/mid/4566A744.7040406@lachy.id.au -- i'm not adding it to the spec at this point, but feel free to add it to the wiki
  52. # [01:13] <Hixie> hmmm
  53. # [01:13] <Hixie> <a method="post" href="">...
  54. # [01:13] <Lachy_> Hixie, that value is being defined in the widgets spec anyway
  55. # [01:13] <Hixie> cool
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  59. # [01:42] <jacobolus> jgraham, Hixie: you know, at some point in the next couple weeks, it might be possible to get something like http://orbited.org/livehelp.html running for this channel, if you need to talk to people unwilling to use IRC
  60. # [01:43] <jacobolus> that is, the code is open currently, if you want to try to run it on your own servers, but in a couple weeks we might be willing to host such a thing for you
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  62. # [01:44] <Lachy_> jacobolus, isn't that just a web based IRC client?
  63. # [01:45] <Hixie> i'd love to host a web-based IRC client (there are a number of them available) but I Dreamhost won't let me run IRC-related software
  64. # [01:45] <jacobolus> well, the usual reason to be reluctant to use IRC is unwillingness to download a client, configure it, etc.
  65. # [01:45] <Hixie> though actually there's a web-based IRC client for the w3.org IRC network
  66. # [01:45] <Hixie> so maybe we should tell ben about that
  67. # [01:46] <Lachy_> There are java applet clients available, which can be hosted on any web site and don't require the server itself to connect to the network
  68. # [01:46] <jacobolus> yeah, but java applet clients are truly terrible
  69. # [01:47] <Lachy_> I know
  70. # [01:48] <Lachy_> people could just install and use Chatzilla. It's one of the most simple to use and install clients available
  71. # [01:48] <jacobolus> yeah… but people have an amazing aversion to installing anything, sadly
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  88. # [03:32] <Hixie> hmm
  89. # [03:32] <Hixie> the whole issue of making elements conforming when they're empty is a thorny one
  90. # [03:32] <Hixie> should <a></a> be conforming? what about <em></em> or <bdo></bdo>?
  91. # [03:37] <takkaria> will it make any real difference?
  92. # [03:37] <Hixie> to what?
  93. # [03:37] <Hixie> it'll make a difference to web authors who care about the specs
  94. # [03:38] <Hixie> there are _some_
  95. # [03:38] <takkaria> well, I'd say that they seem non-conforming to me, just in that they don't make sense
  96. # [03:39] <takkaria> what is it to emphasise nothing? etc
  97. # [03:39] <Hixie> yeah, but there are cases where you have e.g. a template and you just haven't filled it in
  98. # [03:39] <Hixie> should it be invalid?
  99. # [03:39] <Hixie> what if you're going to use script later?
  100. # [03:39] <Hixie> to fill it in?
  101. # [03:39] <Hixie> hmm
  102. # [03:40] <takkaria> well, if you're going to use a script to fill it in, you're probably capable of using a script to create it in the first place
  103. # [03:41] <takkaria> having said that, I don't see empty elements causing any harm particularly other than not making sense
  104. # [03:41] <Hixie> you might not have the data yet
  105. # [03:41] <Hixie> yeah
  106. # [03:41] <takkaria> it's probably the kind of thing a conformance checker should warn about
  107. # [03:41] <Hixie> i think i'm gonna allow them
  108. # [03:41] <Hixie> though maybe with a "should" or something
  109. # [03:42] <takkaria> btw, grats on getting the spec to more-or-less feature-complete. I never thought that would happen. P)
  110. # [03:42] <takkaria> :)
  111. # [03:42] <Hixie> hehe :-)
  112. # [03:43] <Hixie> well it's easy to get feature complete
  113. # [03:43] <Hixie> you just say you are :-)
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  115. # [03:44] <takkaria> I noticed the increasing referrals to "v2", so it's obviously a little more planned than that ^_^
  116. # [03:44] <Hixie> "v2" is just my codename for "later"
  117. # [03:44] <Hixie> some parts of the spec (canvas, video) are actually already at v2, technically
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  119. # [03:48] <takkaria> section 11 has a ridiculously long name. I wonder if anyone will complain about that. :)
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  121. # [03:49] <Hixie> probably. they complain about everything. :-)
  122. # [03:49] <Hixie> the trick is distinguishing the valid complaints from the meaningless whines
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  126. # [03:58] <Dewi> Hixie: I've recently needed to do a little parsing of markup in ASP where tools are scarce... I've found your journal posts about unusual parsing behaviours quite useful.
  127. # [03:58] <Hixie> glad to be of help
  128. # [03:58] <Hixie> see also the spec
  129. # [03:58] <Hixie> http://whatwg.org/html5/
  130. # [03:58] <Hixie> it has a full spec for parsing html5 now
  131. # [03:59] <Dewi> Hixie: but... (this is the part you don't want to hear) I have since realised you were the "XHTML considered harmful" guy :)
  132. # [03:59] <Hixie> yup
  133. # [03:59] <Dewi> Hixie: I just wanted to ask you... considering how poorly current browsers support real, strict, pedantic SGML-HTML behaviours... well, do you think current-day browsers are closer to a correct implementation of HTML, or of XHTML?
  134. # [04:00] <Hixie> i think current day browsers are closest to a correct implementation of html5 and xhtml5
  135. # [04:00] <Dewi> I mean, to use a simple example, if you self-close a tag, browsers will ignore your "/" attribute and to me, that seems closer to an XHTML behaviour than a HTML one
  136. # [04:00] <Hixie> html5 defines that as the correct way to parse
  137. # [04:00] <Hixie> it's exactly what html5 requires
  138. # [04:01] <Dewi> Hixie: hehe, good answer. I haven't looked at html5 enough yet, but I like what I've seen so far :)
  139. # [04:01] <Dewi> so maybe I should concentrate on trying to parse html5 and assume that xhtml and html will "usually work"...
  140. # [04:01] <Dewi> "usually work as intended"
  141. # [04:02] <Hixie> really it's just about the mime type
  142. # [04:02] <Hixie> if it's text/html then html5 describes how you parse it
  143. # [04:03] <Hixie> if it's application/xml or another XML type, then XML defines how you parse it
  144. # [04:04] <Dewi> I must admit, re-reading the whole "considered harmful" debate I'm noticing things I didn't know about proper XHTML before... like I never realised document.write() was actually outlawed (although personally I dislike it). I also read somewhere that style elements require processing instructions and I've never done that either.
  145. # [04:04] <Dewi> it makes me unsure how to feel about XML tool chains
  146. # [04:04] <Hixie> xml is useful and all... but it has a lot of hype
  147. # [04:04] <Hixie> i'm trying to keep the hype for html5 at a minumum
  148. # [04:04] <Hixie> minimum
  149. # [04:05] <Hixie> anyway, time to go home
  150. # [04:05] <Hixie> bbl
  151. # [04:05] <Dewi> the only time I've felt comfortable with serverside development has been when I had access to a full XML tree I could really process freely... and yet now I'm thinking... if I used document.write() in that context... what did that XML tree really represent?
  152. # [04:06] <Dewi> maybe more html5 than anything... anyway, thanks for talking to me about this :)
  153. # [04:06] <Dewi> (I'm guessing you've probably discussed this a thousand times)
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  157. # [04:15] <jacobolus> Hixie: I vote allow <em></em>, etc. what's the harm in leaving them?
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  167. # [04:43] <Hixie> jacobolus: yeah
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  201. # [09:36] <Hixie> what would you call an element, like <p> or <em> or <label>, that expects to have some element, textual, or embedded resource content?
  202. # [09:36] <OmegaJunior> Container
  203. # [09:37] <Hixie> as opposed to, say, <img>, or <div>, or <output>, which could be empty throughout their life without any likely problem
  204. # [09:37] <OmegaJunior> An empty div?
  205. # [09:38] <OmegaJunior> I'm sure it's allowed but I fail to see the use at this point
  206. # [09:38] <Hixie> hmm
  207. # [09:38] <OmegaJunior> One can have empty divs as placeholders for future content, which may or may not be added, for instance.
  208. # [09:39] <OmegaJunior> Then it's still a container.
  209. # [09:39] <OmegaJunior> I'd distinguish between containers that require child nodes and containers that don't.
  210. # [09:42] <Dewi> OmegaJunior: I style empty divs all the time
  211. # [09:42] <Dewi> OmegaJunior: sometimes there just isn't any content you can meaningfully attach styling to
  212. # [09:43] <Hixie> hmm
  213. # [09:43] <Dewi> (usually because of CSS limitations or bugs of course)
  214. # [09:43] <OmegaJunior> Makes sense. We do create html source to fit our graphical designs.
  215. # [09:44] <Dewi> the most common is probably this guy: <div class="clearer"></div>
  216. # [09:44] <Dewi> used to clear past floated blocks
  217. # [09:44] <Hixie> :after { clear: both; }
  218. # [09:44] <Hixie> mmm
  219. # [09:44] <Dewi> especially when you want the bottom of a box to do it, so styling the next thing isn't possible
  220. # [09:44] <OmegaJunior> :after not supported in some browsers
  221. # [09:45] <Hixie> ah, yes, true
  222. # [09:45] <Dewi> :after would probably be on the wrong side of the box border I'm talking about (though I haven't tried)
  223. # [09:46] <Dewi> although now that I think about it, there are probably other ways to trigger better boxing of a float container: like messing with 'overflow', that tends to make boxes quite "solid"
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  226. # [09:47] <Dewi> (auto or hidden)
  227. # [09:47] <Dewi> and yes, there are many times an empty div or span sets you up for subsequent injection of content
  228. # [09:58] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  229. # [10:10] * Lachy was hoping Hixie would reconsider dropping significant inline content!
  230. # [10:25] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  231. # [10:31] <Hixie> heh
  232. # [10:31] <Hixie> why?
  233. # [10:40] <Lachy> Hixie, just cause it would have been somewhat useful for conformance checking
  234. # [10:45] <Hixie> oh well i kept that
  235. # [10:45] <Hixie> there's still a SHOULD
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  239. # [10:56] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/300
  240. # [10:57] <othermaciej> what is that a graph of?
  241. # [10:57] <Hixie> number of outstanding e-mails in my imap folder
  242. # [10:57] <othermaciej> sparta?
  243. # [10:57] <Hixie> (html5 e-mails)
  244. # [10:58] <othermaciej> recent trend is good
  245. # [10:58] <Hixie> over the past 4 weeks
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  247. # [10:59] <Hixie> the times where it's not going down, the uphill climb is pretty much the steady state
  248. # [10:59] <Hixie> (notice how it always seems to climb at the same rate)
  249. # [11:00] <Hixie> anyway
  250. # [11:00] <Hixie> bed time
  251. # [11:00] <Hixie> nn
  252. # [11:00] <OmegaJunior> G'night!
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  279. # [14:37] <Philip`> Google Calendar would be so much better if it actually showed me my calendar, instead of "Not Found: Error 404"
  280. # [14:37] <OmegaJunior> Hah
  281. # [14:38] <OmegaJunior> Google GMail would be a lot better if it didn't try to force me into downgrading to their level of browser knowledge.
  282. # [14:42] * Philip` hopes he didn't have any important events scheduled
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  285. # [14:56] <Dewi> OmegaJunior: downgrade?
  286. # [14:56] <OmegaJunior> Yes. Why/
  287. # [14:56] <OmegaJunior> ?
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  293. # [15:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: from my point of view, r1115 removing "(required)" annotations from attribute lists made the spec less useful
  294. # [15:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: compare with http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fhsivonen.iki.fi%2Ftest%2Fmoz%2Felaboration-demo.xhtml
  295. # [15:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: oh, and thanks for zapping significant inline content
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  364. # [20:34] * Philip` tries writing some canvas code that simply draws a few rectangles (for visualising some data), which surely isn't very complicated at all, and finds it's buggy in Opera 9.2
  365. # [20:34] <Philip`> Also it's really slow doing anything fullscreen, so I think I'll just rewrite this in Python + OpenGL or something
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  389. # [22:02] * jgraham curses firefox 3's dislike for self-signed certificates
  390. # [22:09] <gavin_> you're not the only one!
  391. # [22:10] <gavin_> we're making some changes for beta 1 that will make your life a bit easier
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  398. # [22:16] <jgraham> gavin_: good to know
  399. # [22:18] <jgraham> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=401575 I guess
  400. # [22:19] <gavin_> yeah, and the related bugs mentioned there
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  404. # [22:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, removing (required) was a consistency thing. most of the attribute restrictions are more complex, and i need a more consistent way of summarising them.
  405. # [22:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm thinking maybe putting an asterisk next to attribute names that are not independently optional
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  413. # [23:01] <Hixie> so did the aria call conclude anything?
  414. # [23:03] <Hixie> or the forms task force call?
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  426. # Session Close: Thu Nov 01 00:00:01 2007

The end :)