/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-11-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 01 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:41] <Hixie> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1805709102&size=o is awesome
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  10. # [00:46] <bradee-oh> Hixie: I knew which photo you were talking about before I clicked the link. it's incredible
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  12. # [00:53] <kingryan> "mordorsoft"
  13. # [00:57] <gsnedders> someone has too much spare time on their hands, me things
  14. # [00:57] <gsnedders> *thinks
  15. # [01:04] <jgraham> That's like an ultra-geeky stanley donwood
  16. # [01:05] <chipig> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y36fG2Oba0
  17. # [01:06] <Hixie> who the hell is 82.155.213.9 and why are they trying to download my entire site
  18. # [01:07] <Hixie> including every possible tic tac toe game possible on a 10x10 board
  19. # [01:07] <Hixie> (http://software.hixie.ch/fun/games/tic-tac-toe)
  20. # [01:07] <gsnedders> ce n'est pas moi
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  22. # [01:08] <Hixie> they didn't check robots.txt, either
  23. # [01:09] <jruderman> Hixie: clearly, a big tic tac toe fan
  24. # [01:09] <gsnedders> I mean, I don't read robots.txt everytime before I read a site
  25. # [01:10] <jruderman> gsnedders: you need the "Grab robots.txt" Firefox extension
  26. # [01:10] * gsnedders doesn't use Fx
  27. # [01:11] <jruderman> gsnedders: it has an option to show whether the current page is robot-excluded in the status bar
  28. # [01:11] <Hixie> gsnedders: no, but presumably one would do so before crawling the entire site
  29. # [01:11] <jruderman> (just kidding, i made that up)
  30. # [01:11] <gsnedders> jruderman: knowing how useless some extensions are, that's believable :)
  31. # [01:12] <gsnedders> Hixie: maybe I would. depends how busy I am.
  32. # [01:12] <Hixie> gsnedders: i'd hope your software would, at least :-)
  33. # [01:12] <jruderman> lol at "The clouds of tagging"
  34. # [01:12] <gsnedders> Hixie: oh, I was talking about doing it all manually
  35. # [01:13] <chipig> roy needs to making posse badges.
  36. # [01:13] <Hixie> gsnedders: this was clearly an automatic thing
  37. # [01:13] <Philip`> If you're writing some automated web-page-downloader that only downloads one page per site, should you still respect robots.txt (given that fetching it would double the number of requests)?
  38. # [01:13] <gsnedders> Hixie: well, from the size of your site, that's obvious. I was hardly serious
  39. # [01:13] <gsnedders> (I mean, when was I ever serious?)
  40. # [01:13] <Hixie> gsnedders: :-)
  41. # [01:13] * gsnedders tacklehugs Hixie
  42. # [01:14] * Hixie steps out of the way of the tackle
  43. # [01:14] <Hixie> Philip`: probably not
  44. # [01:14] <jruderman> http://www.google.com/search?q=mordorsoft "Did you mean: microsoft"
  45. # [01:14] <jruderman> google++
  46. # [01:14] <gsnedders> Hixie: and the hugs?
  47. # [01:14] <Hixie> gsnedders: dunno, i don't know you :-)
  48. # [01:15] * gsnedders adds to list of things to do when he first meets Hixie
  49. # [01:15] <Hixie> -_-
  50. # [01:15] <gsnedders> :D
  51. # [01:15] <gsnedders> (not that there is actually a list with anything on it, but…)
  52. # [01:17] <gsnedders> rm list-of-things-to-do-when-I-meet-hixie
  53. # [01:17] <gsnedders> and on that rm, g'nite
  54. # [01:18] <Hixie> nn
  55. # [01:22] <jgraham> Hmm. Sleep would be a good idea I guess
  56. # [01:31] <karlUshi> robots.txt is useful for certain things but not all unfortunately.
  57. # [01:31] <karlUshi> I think it is useful to say, I want this indexed.
  58. # [01:32] <karlUshi> but very poor for blocking access.
  59. # [01:33] <karlUshi> For some bots, I have been using .htaccess instead of robots.txt
  60. # [01:33] <karlUshi> things like this in the .htaccess
  61. # [01:33] <karlUshi> SetEnvIfNoCase User-Agent "Technoratibot" bad_bot
  62. # [01:33] <karlUshi> SetEnvIfNoCase User-Agent "Technorati Feed Engine" bad_bot
  63. # [01:33] <karlUshi> SetEnvIfNoCase User-Agent "Microsoft Office" bad_bot
  64. # [01:33] <karlUshi> Order Allow,Deny
  65. # [01:33] <karlUshi> Allow from all
  66. # [01:33] <karlUshi> Deny from env=bad_bot
  67. # [01:35] <Hixie> hm, dave raises an interesting point about auto-pausing cue ranges
  68. # [01:35] <Hixie> since seeking affects them now, it's hard to know when to fire the autopause
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  71. # [01:58] <bradee-oh> Hixie: okay okay
  72. # [01:58] <Hixie> heh
  73. # [01:58] <bradee-oh> Hixie: you've beat me over the head with "not important enough for v1"
  74. # [01:58] <Hixie> :-)
  75. # [01:58] <bradee-oh> Hixie: enough times... that I'll let it go :)
  76. # [01:58] <Hixie> i'm mostly chanelling aaron on this i think
  77. # [02:01] <bradee-oh> Hixie: okay okay =D
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  95. # [03:55] <jruderman> Hixie: "mouseydown"?
  96. # [03:55] <jruderman> on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-contenteditable.html
  97. # [03:55] <jruderman> is that a typo?
  98. # [04:02] * jwalden snickers
  99. # [04:07] <othermaciej> heh
  100. # [04:08] <Hixie> fixed.
  101. # [04:08] <Hixie> (good catch.)
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  103. # [04:10] <jruderman> Hixie: "The in-memory representation is known as 'DOM5 HTML'" -- i think that's confusing and it should be "HTML5 DOM" instead
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  105. # [04:10] <jruderman> Hixie: i often say "DOM 2 Core" to mean "DOM Level 2 Core", but "DOM5 HTML" does not mean "DOM Level 5 HTML"
  106. # [04:10] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  107. # [04:11] <jruderman> Hixie: it's not just me; see http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/DOM_Levels for example
  108. # [04:12] <othermaciej> I find DOM5 HTML confusing too
  109. # [04:12] <othermaciej> HTML5 DOM makes more sense
  110. # [04:12] <othermaciej> just as there is an SVG1.2 DOM, not DOM1.2 SVG
  111. # [04:13] <jruderman> 'Comments that contain the string "-->" can be represented in "DOM5 HTML" but not in "HTML5" and "XHTML5".' mmm, non-serializable doms
  112. # [04:13] <jruderman> well
  113. # [04:13] <jruderman> they can be serialized as scripts to generate them
  114. # [04:13] <jruderman> (i have a script that does that)
  115. # [04:17] <jruderman> it even has a text/html mode that whines about some non-serializable things, such as BR elements with children
  116. # [04:17] <jruderman> but it doesn't complain about adjacent text nodes
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  119. # [04:39] <jruderman> what does "This specification is independent of the various proprietary UI languages that various vendors provide." mean?
  120. # [04:39] <jruderman> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#relationship1
  121. # [04:43] <othermaciej> I think it's supposed to be some sort of odd aspersion on XUL and XAML and the like
  122. # [04:47] <jruderman> the sentence after it, sure
  123. # [04:47] <jruderman> but i don't understand the sentence i pasted
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  128. # [04:58] <Hixie> jruderman: btw please send feedback to one of the lists (or me directly); with few exceptions, i don't track feedback sent on irc
  129. # [04:58] <jruderman> you should track feedback sent on irc ;)
  130. # [04:58] <Hixie> maybe
  131. # [04:58] <Hixie> but i don't :-)
  132. # [04:59] <Hixie> re "DOM5 HTML", i just took the previous name -- DOM2 HTML, with its earlier DOM1 HTML -- and incremented the number to 5.
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  134. # [05:02] <othermaciej> yeah but those were part of the DOM, not part of HTML, as would be the current practice
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  136. # [05:14] <Hixie> othermaciej: *shrug*
  137. # [05:15] <Hixie> same language, new version...
  138. # [05:15] <othermaciej> it's hardly the world's most important issue
  139. # [05:18] <Hixie> true
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  158. # [08:19] <jacobolus> hsivonen: is there a version of the conformance checker which would be of a reasonable size, and able to run w/o a server component, to include with a text editor?
  159. # [08:34] <jacobolus> hsivonen: incidentally, it doesn't seem to like "irc://…" hrefs in a elements. is that proper behavior?
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  161. # [09:04] <gsnedders> jacobolus: well, there's no specification for the IRC scheme, which makes any occurrence non-conforming
  162. # [09:05] <jacobolus> hmm. but it's quite useful to put in different schemes in hyperlinks of html documents :)
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  164. # [09:13] <gsnedders> jacobolus: from a purely conformance POV, nothing that isn't registered should be used :)
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  169. # [09:32] <hsivonen> jacobolus: there is currently only a server version.
  170. # [09:32] <hsivonen> jacobolus: the current way to integrate with a text editor is to run the HTTP server on localhost and to use the Web service API locally as an interprocess communication protocol
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  182. # [10:53] <Hixie> is the semicolon at the end of a sql statement part of the sql statement?
  183. # [10:55] <Philip`> Most SQL APIs only accept a single statement-like-thing with no semicolon, so I assume the actual statement doesn't include a semicolon (and it's handled by command-line UIs instead), but that's not very helpful if you want to be precise about what SQL calls a statement
  184. # [10:56] <Hixie> what i really want to know is what are people going to implement?
  185. # [10:57] <Lachy> I thought the semicolon was required
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  188. # [10:59] <Philip`> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/c-api-multiple-queries.html talks about statements "separated" by semicolons (though only when you turn on an appropriate flag), so they're separators rather than terminators in that kind of API
  189. # [11:00] <Philip`> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/mysql-stmt-prepare.html - "You should not add a terminating semicolon (“;”) or \g to the statement."
  190. # [11:01] <Hixie> yeah but sqlite seems to do it differently
  191. # [11:05] <Philip`> sqlite3_complete is the only thing that the documentation says cares about semicolons, and that's just designed for command-line input - I'm fairly sure the rest of the API doesn't need semicolons (unless that's being hidden by all the language bindings I've used)
  192. # [11:06] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  193. # [11:07] <Philip`> (I vaguely think different systems differ in whether a trailing semicolon is ignored or a syntax error, but can't really remember)
  194. # [11:08] <Hixie> need is one thing; i'm worried about allow
  195. # [11:09] <Hixie> <div> is gonna be a pain
  196. # [11:09] <Hixie> i really don't want <body><div>test</div></body> to be conforming (or <body><div><img ...></div></body>)
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  198. # [11:10] <Hixie> but people are having issues with my suggestion of <form><p>...</p><p>...</p></form> instead of <form><div>...</div><div>...</div></form> (where ... = <label> ... </label>)
  199. # [11:13] * Philip` no longer thinks about block vs inline when writing HTML because it's just a waste of time and makes no practical difference, and would like it if conformance checkers didn't complain about that, but maybe that's just laziness :-)
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  201. # [11:23] <Hixie> i think it makes a difference, but i conveniently have to sleep now and can't defend my position. :-)
  202. # [11:23] <Hixie> nn
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  231. # [15:50] <rene32> Good morning! ;-)
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  235. # [15:59] <rene32> I have an HTML5 feature request. Where do I have to go to so that this is discussed and maybe considered?
  236. # [16:03] <Philip`> rene32: http://www.whatwg.org/mailing-list#specs should be a good place to send ideas
  237. # [16:04] <rene32> Hmm, I don't like mailinglists. Isn't there a place where I can just drop the idea and then leave? :-)
  238. # [16:05] <hsivonen> rene32: well, if you don't take the trouble of subscribing to a list and sending your use cases there, you could state them here and risk them getting forgotten
  239. # [16:05] <Philip`> There's http://forums.whatwg.org/ too
  240. # [16:06] <rene32> hsivonen: Sounds good :-D
  241. # [16:06] <rene32> Maybe I subscribe, discuss the idea and unsubscribe again.
  242. # [16:10] <rene32> In case someone is interested in the idea: I'd like to see a parameter "ellipsis" that tells the browser to replace some text by "..." in case the space to render all text is not sufficient. I think I'll write an email about it to the list.
  243. # [16:12] <OmegaJunior> Doesn't CSS3 do that already?
  244. # [16:12] <hsivonen> rene32: I can tell you right away that there's almost zero chance of that making it into HTML5
  245. # [16:12] <hsivonen> rene32: you might have better luck with CSS
  246. # [16:13] <hsivonen> rene32: I wouldn't be too surprised if CSS overflow was already extended like this
  247. # [16:13] <rene32> Wrong place?
  248. # [16:13] <Dashiva> text-overflow: ellipsis
  249. # [16:13] <rene32> So I have the right ideas but post them in the wrong places and too late.... tough luck :-D
  250. # [16:14] <Dashiva> Opera has some support for it, but it's a pain to use
  251. # [16:14] <Dashiva> Don't know about other browsers
  252. # [16:14] <rene32> is that CSS3?
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  254. # [16:15] <rene32> it's probably end ellipsis only (opposed to centre ellipsis)
  255. # [16:15] <Dashiva> Yes
  256. # [16:16] <rene32> 9.5 has it implemented already?
  257. # [16:16] <Dashiva> It used to be in css3-text, but was removed. It's also listed on msdn
  258. # [16:17] <rene32> What does it mean "it's listed on msdn"?
  259. # [16:17] <Dashiva> Meaning IE supports it somehow, but I don't know the details myself
  260. # [16:17] <OmegaJunior> That's the documentation network for Microsoft Programmers: msdn.microsoft.com
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  262. # [16:18] <rene32> I know. But I did not know what it means when something is listed there. I know what it means if something is listed on eBay though ;-)
  263. # [16:18] <OmegaJunior> :)
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  267. # [16:36] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  268. # [16:41] <Lachy> hey, does anyone know what the country code is for calling the USA?
  269. # [16:42] <Lachy> oh, it's +1. How simple :-)
  270. # [16:43] * Philip` wonders who chose that numbering system
  271. # [16:44] <OmegaJunior> From the USA to my country: 0011
  272. # [16:44] <OmegaJunior> I don't know why.
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  337. # [22:28] <ezyang> Hi, I'm curious to know what the development status of PH5P is <http://jero.net/lab/ph5p/>
  338. # [22:37] <ezyang> I submitted a patch to Jero a few month backs that corrected some minor implementation bugs, but the public code doesn't seem to have been updated
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  349. # [22:47] <ezyang> t
  350. # [22:47] <ezyang> .
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  352. # [22:51] <Hixie> ezyang: do you know who's doing it?
  353. # [22:54] <ezyang> As in wrote the program?
  354. # [22:54] <Hixie> yeah
  355. # [22:54] <Hixie> hm, i expect the latest mail to public-xhtml2 will make things interesting
  356. # [22:54] <ezyang> I'm under the impression that it's the work of Jeroen van der Meer, since it's on his website
  357. # [22:54] <ezyang> I'm probably misunderstanding something
  358. # [22:55] <Hixie> no, i was just curious
  359. # [22:55] <Hixie> i don't think Jeroen is here, though
  360. # [22:55] <ezyang> Yeah
  361. # [22:55] <Hixie> he would be the one who would know how he was doing
  362. # [22:56] <Hixie> :-)
  363. # [22:56] <ezyang> I was trawling the IRC logs, though, and he's popped in here once or twice before, so I was wondering if any of you guys knew :-)
  364. # [22:57] <ezyang> thanks though
  365. # [22:57] <ezyang> public-xhtml2?
  366. # [22:59] <othermaciej> Hixie: what email? link?
  367. # [23:01] <gavin_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Nov/0001.html , presumably
  368. # [23:03] <Hixie> yeah
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  372. # [23:29] <Hixie> wtf is with this lack of e-mail
  373. # [23:30] <Hixie> i've gotten almost no e-mail recently
  374. # [23:30] <gsnedders> Hixie: you want me to send you some? :)
  375. # [23:30] <Hixie> not so much
  376. # [23:30] <Hixie> i'm just curious as to why i haven't gotten any
  377. # [23:30] <Hixie> i suppose it could be because people are travelling to the plenary
  378. # [23:31] <gsnedders> already? wow.
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  380. # [23:32] <Hixie> if i wasn't in the US already, i'd be leaving tomorrow morning
  381. # [23:32] <Hixie> or even tonight
  382. # [23:32] <Hixie> gotta acclimate
  383. # [23:35] <gsnedders> meh. I can't really remember much about going to the US when I last went (around 10 years ago, when I was five)
  384. # [23:35] <gsnedders> I can remember being amazed at arriving in CA at the same time as I left home
  385. # [23:38] <gsnedders> hopefully I'll be able to go next year to France
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  389. # Session Close: Fri Nov 02 00:00:00 2007

The end :)