/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-11-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Nov 03 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  16. # [01:37] <Hixie> i'm having connection issues, so i'm gonna go home and will be back online later to continue replying to all this mail
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  55. # [09:30] <Hixie> hmm
  56. # [09:30] <Hixie> how about a rel value that disables sending of referer headers for a link?
  57. # [09:31] <Hixie> people seem to go to extreme lengths right now with document.open and document.written meta refreshes and all kinds of nonsense
  58. # [09:35] <jruderman> for a long time, i argued that things like "meta refresh doesn't send referrer" and "links from https to http send no referrer at all" are bugs, maybe even security problems
  59. # [09:36] <jruderman> how about making the rel strip out the path&query from the referrer but leave the hostname
  60. # [09:40] <Hixie> seems simpler just to allow the whole thing to be dropped
  61. # [09:40] <Hixie> why would it be a security problem?
  62. # [09:40] <othermaciej> how is not sending referer conceivably a security bug?
  63. # [09:42] <Hixie> rel=noreferer now in the spec.
  64. # [09:43] <othermaciej> is that really a RELationship?
  65. # [09:44] <Hixie> not really, but hey, rel is pretty damn poluted already anyway
  66. # [09:44] <Hixie> i considered rel=untrusted, but i figured why pretend
  67. # [09:45] <Hixie> we could add an attribute, but that's far heavier
  68. # [09:45] <Hixie> (adds an attribute to two elements, DOM attributes to match, etc)
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  71. # [09:53] * hsivonen hopes that TPAC will have better wifi connectivity than XTech
  72. # [09:54] * hsivonen expects GPRS/EDGE/HSDPA roaming to be insanely expensive and perhaps even broken
  73. # [09:54] <Hixie> tps usually have wifi.
  74. # [09:54] <Hixie> better wifi, i wouldn't count on.
  75. # [09:54] <Hixie> at least not at the start of hte week
  76. # [09:54] <Hixie> it usually settles down by about noon on wednesday
  77. # [09:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: XTech had none for people who weren't presenting the same day, so almost any connectivity would be better
  78. # [09:56] <Hixie> heh
  79. # [09:59] <Hixie> huh
  80. # [09:59] <Hixie> HTMLHeadElement.profile in DOM2 HTML is defined to return one URI
  81. # [09:59] <Hixie> but <head profile=""> in HTML4 is defined to take a space-separated list of URIs
  82. # [09:59] <othermaciej> yum
  83. # [10:00] <Hixie> (HTML5 drops both)
  84. # [10:00] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@c5144430c.cable.wanadoo.nl)
  85. # [10:00] <Hixie> are there other attributes that take lists of URIs?
  86. # [10:00] <Hixie> or is it just profile (and now ping)?
  87. # [10:00] <hsivonen> I guess that happens when the operation/DOM nonsense is pushed to another spec
  88. # [10:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, that's why i think it's totally stupid to suggest they should be split again. but whatever. :-)
  89. # [10:01] <Hixie> i wonder how i should expose ping in the DOM
  90. # [10:01] <othermaciej> did someone suggest that?
  91. # [10:01] <Hixie> i think ff3 just has a DOMString of absolute URIs
  92. # [10:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: the input method attribute on WF2 whatever it was called takes a list on tokens and URIs
  93. # [10:01] <Hixie> othermaciej: oh it's a common request
  94. # [10:01] <Hixie> the xforms thingy?
  95. # [10:01] <Hixie> hmm
  96. # [10:01] <Hixie> i wonder how i handled that
  97. # [10:02] <Hixie> i bet i just ignored it
  98. # [10:02] <hsivonen> othermaciej: "operational/DOM nonsense" is from Roy Fielding's survey "disagree" rationale
  99. # [10:02] * Hixie notes searching for "input" and searching for "method" in the wf2 spec... not useful
  100. # [10:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah, the XForms thingy
  101. # [10:02] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  102. # [10:03] <Hixie> inputmode
  103. # [10:03] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I wonder if anyone told him about SVG, MathML, XForms...
  104. # [10:03] <Hixie> crap. inputmode is just a DOMString.
  105. # [10:03] <Hixie> screwed myself again.
  106. # [10:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's xsd:string in the XForms schema :-)
  107. # [10:03] <Hixie> good times.
  108. # [10:04] <Hixie> ok so what do i do for ping. Make it a DOMString with a parallel pingList that uses the DOMTokenList thingy, and then never actually put pingList in the spec because, you know, why bother?
  109. # [10:04] <Hixie> or do i actually do URI resolution
  110. # [10:04] <Hixie> do i have a DOMStringList for it?
  111. # [10:04] <Hixie> aaah so many options
  112. # [10:05] <hsivonen> aside: IIRC, XForms wasn't clear on whether IRIs are OK as inputmodes
  113. # [10:05] * hsivonen looks up the new ed with so many diffs
  114. # [10:07] <Hixie> i think i'll just make .ping return a DOMString of resolved absolute URIs
  115. # [10:07] <Hixie> which is a dumb API
  116. # [10:07] <Hixie> but i don't see what else to do
  117. # [10:08] * hsivonen doesn't find "IRI" in XForms 3rd ed.
  118. # [10:08] <hsivonen> does this mean XForms isn't properly internationalized? :-)
  119. # [10:09] <hsivonen> no diffs in the inputmode section
  120. # [10:10] <hsivonen> (schema-wise inputmode is the most complex attribute in HTML5)
  121. # [10:10] <hsivonen> (and in XForms they dodged it all with xsd:string)
  122. # [10:11] <annevk2> Hixie, a DOMTokenList if resolved URIs?
  123. # [10:11] <hsivonen> hmm. I have written this in comments: "# XForms seems to allow IRIs when it talks about URIs."
  124. # [10:12] <hsivonen> I wonder where I got that from
  125. # [10:12] <hsivonen> I also have "# Let's assume case, digits and symbols are mutually exclusive to cut down on possible permutations."
  126. # [10:12] <hsivonen> # "halfWidth" is deprecated
  127. # [10:12] <hsivonen> # Just assuming at least one token is required. The spec does not say.
  128. # [10:13] <hsivonen> I guess the spec wasn't unambiguous :-)
  129. # [10:13] <hsivonen> and WF2 imports the ambiguity
  130. # [10:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: btw, I've made inputmode enumerated tokens case-sensitive
  131. # [10:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: HTML5 enumerated tokens are otherwise ascii-case-insensitive
  132. # [10:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: the spec should probably say something about case-sensitivity when importing inputmode from XForms
  133. # [10:16] * hsivonen wonders if the S60 version of Opera will have actual inputmode support
  134. # [10:16] <hsivonen> Opera 9 that is
  135. # [10:16] <Hixie> hsivonen: i expect to define inputmode explicitly or drop it completely when wf2 becomes part of html5.
  136. # [10:17] <Hixie> annevk2: but then you can't do .ping = 'x y z'
  137. # [10:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  138. # [10:17] <Hixie> annevk2: you have to use the API to add and remove URIs
  139. # [10:17] <annevk2> you can do setAttribute("ping", "x y z")
  140. # [10:18] <Hixie> annevk2: sure, but that's inconsistent, you can set every other attribute
  141. # [10:19] <annevk2> ok, dunno really then
  142. # [10:19] <Hixie> yeah me either
  143. # [10:19] <annevk2> i'm not sure what the use case is for a DOM attribute here anyway
  144. # [10:19] <Hixie> consistency
  145. # [10:19] <hsivonen> aside: something else profile='' and inputmode='' have in common is that they require absolute IRIs
  146. # [10:20] <annevk2> Hixie, in that case do the resolve URI thingie
  147. # [10:20] <Hixie> oh yeah i guess profile="" didn't allow relative ones
  148. # [10:20] <Hixie> annevk2: yeah that's what the spec now says
  149. # [10:20] <Hixie> annevk2: :-(
  150. # [10:21] <annevk2> how does the spec deal with space separated lists of URIs then in "reflect"
  151. # [10:22] <Hixie> i added a paragraph there
  152. # [10:22] <Hixie> in fact that's all i changed
  153. # [10:22] <Hixie> see diff
  154. # [10:23] <annevk2> ah, refresh helps
  155. # [10:24] <Hixie> i'm confused by issue-2
  156. # [10:24] <Hixie> not sure what to do about it
  157. # [10:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: about the ping UI req
  158. # [10:25] <hsivonen> whether the spec can/should require ping to be exposed in the UI
  159. # [10:26] * hsivonen is seeing the death of an old business model: my mobile Internet is now fast enough to route Skype calls through for fraction of the cost circuit-switched calls cost
  160. # [10:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: oh i understand the issue. i just don't know what to do about it.
  161. # [10:27] <hsivonen> the telco sells me flatrate packet data but charges 0.25 euros per minute for circuit-switched video calls
  162. # [10:27] <hsivonen> oh sorry
  163. # [10:27] <Hixie> and there are lots of business models dying at the moment
  164. # [10:27] <Hixie> it's great
  165. # [10:27] <Hixie> :-)
  166. # [10:27] <Hixie> breathing new blood into the human race
  167. # [10:27] <Hixie> or at least the capitalist part
  168. # [10:29] <hsivonen> off-topic, but I've never like the attitude of telco folks.
  169. # [10:30] <hsivonen> back at the university, we had a course where the IP part was lectured by a guy who had been extending the Internet to Finland early on
  170. # [10:30] <hsivonen> and had later built the "Saudi Internet"
  171. # [10:31] <hsivonen> and then there were guest lectures from telcos talking about phone stuff
  172. # [10:31] <hsivonen> the different in attitude was striking
  173. # [10:31] <hsivonen> a telco person showed a slide pondering what they can charge for
  174. # [10:31] <hsivonen> and it had a "per bullet" (in a game) bullet point
  175. # [10:32] <hsivonen> (now that I think of it, that would be the game version of Chris Rock's "bullet control" :-)
  176. # [10:32] <Hixie> what's shocking isn't so much their gall or greed but that it works
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  178. # [10:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: actually, the failure of WAP and the rise of real browser engines and Internet connectivity on phones is some indication that the telco gall is no longer working like it used to
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  180. # [10:56] <Hixie> yeah they're slowly dying
  181. # [10:56] <Hixie> but not very fast
  182. # [10:58] <hsivonen> the main problem is that many countries allow telcos to control the handset features
  183. # [10:58] <hsivonen> that's evil
  184. # [11:00] <hsivonen> it's frustrating that the business side of Nokia is blocking some technical goodness because Nokia needs to appease to telcos abroad where the telcos call the shots
  185. # [11:00] <Lachy> Another problem is that some countries allow locked handsets to be sold without an unlocked version avaliable
  186. # [11:00] <Hixie> am i really not explaining myself in this ping='' discussion, or is julian just not reading what i write?
  187. # [11:01] <Hixie> for the past like 3 e-mails he's asked me the same question, as far as i can tell
  188. # [11:01] <hsivonen> Lachy: that's the mechanism that they use to control handset features
  189. # [11:02] * Hixie throws the ping="" mail onto the links pile and goes to bed
  190. # [11:02] <Hixie> nn
  191. # [11:05] <hsivonen> the major *business* innovation in Nokia 770, N800 and N810 is that the device doesn't have a GSM unit and, therefore, can bypass the phone sales channel in countries with bad laws
  192. # [11:06] <Lachy> how do they work without GSM?
  193. # [11:06] <hsivonen> Lachy: through wifi or routing via Bluetooth through a separate GSM device
  194. # [11:07] <hsivonen> Lachy: so I get to run VoIP software on the N800 and route the packets through my phone
  195. # [11:07] <Lachy> ok. So it's only really useful in areas where there's sufficient open wifi coverage
  196. # [11:08] <hsivonen> Lachy: in Helsinki, I use my N800 with the traffic routed through my HSDPA phone
  197. # [11:08] <Lachy> ok
  198. # [11:09] <hsivonen> Lachy: that I can't get proper VoIP software for the S60 handset is just an artificial barries
  199. # [11:09] <hsivonen> barrier
  200. # [11:09] <hsivonen> people can ship all the VoIP software they want for the N800
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  203. # [11:17] <Hixie> gah, i couldn't help replying.
  204. # [11:17] <Hixie> now i'm really going to bed
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  239. # [20:44] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@T6343.t.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
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  242. # [21:40] * Quits: shawn (n=shawn@c-24-61-15-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
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  245. # [21:44] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-173-6.cable.telstraclear.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  246. # [21:49] * shawn is now known as shawn_hsiao
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  250. # [22:24] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  251. # [23:03] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
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  254. # [23:39] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-185-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  255. # [23:40] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-185-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  256. # Session Close: Sun Nov 04 00:00:00 2007

The end :)