/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-11-20 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Nov 20 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <Hixie> i wish i understood what karl was trying to say in his last e-mail
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# [00:11] <Lachy_> Hixie, I think he's trying to say that determining the demand for a feature is subjective and depends upon who is asked
# [00:13] <jgraham_> I can't say it makes a lot of sense to me, but Lachy_'s interpretation seems plausible
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# [00:18] <gavin> I interpreted it as "there are features currently in the spec for which I haven't seen requests on the mailing lists"
# [00:19] <Lachy_> that would be because most of the features in the spec were discussed on the whatwg list well before the htmlwg started
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# [00:19] <Lachy_> and also because demand for a feature can come from a lot more places than just the mailing list
# [00:21] <gavin> yeah, I know
# [00:21] <gavin> but his message gave me the impresion that he doesn't see it that way
# [00:23] <Hixie> well, the former interpretation is a truism, so i doubt that's what he meant
# [00:23] <Hixie> gavin's interpretation makes sense, but i'm not sure what karl expects me to do with it if that's what he meant
# [00:24] <Hixie> since it's clear that public-html is far from the only source that we should look at
# [00:24] <jgraham> I think the implication is that the spec has solicited input from a subset of its potential users and so is biased toward the desires of those people
# [00:25] <webben_> Hixie: Can't you just ask? (what Karl meant)
# [00:26] <Hixie> i haven't had good luck asking karl what he meant in the past
# [00:26] <webben_> ah
# [00:30] <jgraham> (in addition it seems to imply that the development has been on a "we go to some community and ask what they want out of html" model, which I don't think matches reality)
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# [00:32] <Hixie> jgraham: the implication that the spec has solicited input only from a subset of its potential users (and so is biased) is true, of course
# [00:32] <Hixie> not sure how to avoid that
# [00:33] <Hixie> anyway
# [00:33] <Hixie> it would de helpful if karl made it clearer in his e-mails what he desired from his e-mails
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# [00:34] <webben_> Hixie: Regardless of what Karl meant, I suppose the way to solicit input from lots of users is to simply ask different communities for input. I suspect the challenge would be translating such input into stuff that's in scope for HTML. But that doesn't mean it would be a worthless procedure.
# [00:34] <jgraham> Hixie: Of course not all communities are equally easy to reach but the doors for feedback have always been open
# [00:35] <jgraham> so in principle, any community can provide input
# [00:35] <Hixie> webben_: right, that's what we've been doing for years
# [00:36] <webben_> Hixie: Haven't most of these users been technical?
# [00:36] <Hixie> many have, but by no means all
# [00:36] <Hixie> most of html's target audience is technical, though, so that bias is to be expected
# [00:37] <webben_> No. Most of HTML's target audience is technically illiterate. It's just that their use of HTML is mediated through applications.
# [00:37] <Hixie> i should rephrase
# [00:37] <webben_> actually if you include stuff like blog comments, maybe even most HTML authors are technically illiterate
# [00:37] <Hixie> most of web apps 1.0's target audience was technical
# [00:37] <webben_> ah yes
# [00:37] <Hixie> html5's primary goal is extending html to apply to web application authors
# [00:37] <Hixie> who are technical
# [00:38] <jgraham> There is a distinction to be made between HTML+DOM and content-that-happens-to-be-in-HTML
# [00:39] <jgraham> HTML+DOM is mainly aimed at technical users (although hopefully with a very low barrier to entry)
# [00:39] <jgraham> HTML content is aimed at everyone
# [00:39] <webben_> jgraham: where do comments on blogger fit into that scheme
# [00:40] <webben_> (Blogger allows markup like b and i)
# [00:41] <jgraham> webben_: Essentially HTML is an implementation detail there; they could be using a GUI editor or markdown or anything else. But it happens that a subset of HTML-the-language is easy enough for many non-technical people to use
# [00:41] <jgraham> Which is a good thing and I think we should consider those uses
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# [00:41] <othermaciej> I'm not sure if non-technical users could express their needs in a very useful form
# [00:41] <jgraham> by e.g. keeping <b> and <i>
# [00:42] <othermaciej> you'd have to use techniques like user testing to get useful data
# [00:42] <othermaciej> or otherwise make indirect inferences from behavior patterns
# [00:42] <webben_> othermaciej: That's possibly true. Maybe that's an essential part of soliciting input.
# [00:42] <Hixie> (note that i have used input from usability studies on users of wysiwyg editors in drafting html5)
# [00:43] <webben_> Hixie: That's good.
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# [00:50] <webben_> Does HTML5 have a document listing persona yet?
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# [00:54] <Hixie> persona?
# [00:55] <webben_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personas
# [00:56] <webben_> it was an idea raised early on in public-html somewhere ... at some point someone linked to the WAI personas
# [00:56] <webben_> but that's only one aspect of HTML usership
# [00:56] <Hixie> i do not believe anyone has written a document describing use cases from the point of view of fictious characters, no
# [00:58] <jgraham> I always wonder about the value of such documents; it's hard to say if a fictional use case scenario corresponds to reality or not
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# [00:59] <Hixie> if anyone wants to write such a document, i'm certainly not opposed. the whatwg wiki is available as a place to put such discussions, if needed.
# [00:59] <webben_> jgraham: That's true. But it's equally hard to say if a use case scenario considered in the abstract corresponds to reality or not.
# [00:59] <Hixie> we don't tend to consider use cases in the abstract
# [00:59] <othermaciej> I'm not sure personas are a useful abstraction for extremely widely deployed technical specifications
# [00:59] <Hixie> for most features the use cases are derived straight from actual feedback
# [01:00] <othermaciej> they are most useful for end-user applications with a specialized but not monolithic target audience
# [01:00] <Hixie> e.g. the offline stuff is derived straight from experience the Google Reader team had in developing an offline version of Google Reader
# [01:00] <Hixie> (amongst other things)
# [01:00] <Hixie> similarly, i took experience from the YouTube, Google Video, and (in the form of feedback and discussions) the Quicktime teams in writing the video section
# [01:01] <Hixie> all of which is very much not abstract :-)
# [01:02] <webben_> Does the HTML5 WG have a way by which your average Joe can send feedback?
# [01:02] <Hixie> the html5 wg, or the whatwg?
# [01:02] <Hixie> the whatwg has several
# [01:02] <webben_> Or would they need to send it to WHATWG?
# [01:02] <webben_> I'm talking about the HTML5 WG.
# [01:03] <Hixie> i don't know that the w3c is really set up for getting feedback from random joe
# [01:03] <Hixie> i suppose they could mail www-html@w3.org, i follow that
# [01:03] <Philip`> public-html-comments@w3.org?
# [01:03] <Hixie> oh, is that active?
# [01:03] <webben_> Maybe the HTML WG homepage should say?
# [01:03] <Hixie> maybe. tell the people in #htmlwg :-)
# [01:03] <Philip`> It had two emails this month, so presumably it works
# [01:03] <Hixie> (i don't have access to those pages, i don't think)
# [01:03] <Hixie> Philip`: ah
# [01:04] <Hixie> i'd better make sure i'm subscribed
# [01:05] <Philip`> Hmm, 14% of the list's posts is spam
# [01:05] <webben_> I assume that's true of any W3C list that isn't looked after.
# [01:05] <Philip`> or maybe it's 17%
# [01:06] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/ says September had 3 posts, but http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2007Sep/ shows two
# [01:06] * Hixie wonders what a good way of faking |span { content: '' }| would be
# [01:06] <Hixie> i suppose i have to use the evil text-indent trick
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# [01:37] <Hixie> can anyone find a better 16x16 image on a microsoft-owned domain to represent IE than http://www.microsoft.com/favicon.ico ?
# [01:40] <jruderman> it needs to be hosted on a microsoft domain?
# [01:46] <jruderman> does exploiting an XSS hole on a microsoft domain count?
# [01:46] <Hixie> i'd like it to be hosted on a microsoft domain
# [01:46] <Hixie> what's your uri? :-)
# [01:47] <gavin> does it have to be exactly 16x16?
# [01:47] <Hixie> if possible
# [01:49] <gavin> closes I've found so far is http://www.microsoft.com/enable/images/icons/windowsvista/ie7.jpg
# [01:49] <jruderman> jpg wtf
# [01:51] <Philip`> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535205.new(en-us,VS.85).gif
# [01:51] <Hixie> oooh, that might work
# [01:51] <Philip`> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms531207.ATTR_msext(en-us,VS.85).gif
# [01:54] <Hixie> sweet, that first one is perfect
# [01:54] <Hixie> thanks
# [01:55] <Hixie> how about something for safari that's better than http://www.webkit.org/favicon.ico ?
# [01:56] <Hixie> the problem with apple is that their "icons" have become photo-realistic multi-megapixel images at this point
# [01:56] <Hixie> (ideally something on apple.com or webkit.org)
# [01:59] <Philip`> "Your search - imagedoesnotexist - did not match any documents. Results have been omitted at your request. If you'd like, you can <a href=/images?q=imagedoesnotexist&svnum=50&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=opera&rls=en&sa=G>repeat your search with the omitted results included</a>." [as the displayed text] - hmm, looks like someone escaped their HTML one time too many
# [02:00] <Hixie> uri?
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# [02:01] <Philip`> http://images.google.com/images?imgsz=icon&q=imagedoesnotexist
# [02:03] <Philip`> I guess http://images.apple.com/safari/images/performance_safari20070611.gif is a bit too big
# [02:03] <Hixie> yeah
# [02:04] <Philip`> Use <canvas> to resize it :-)
# [02:05] <Hixie> i'm using it from css
# [02:06] <Philip`> Use <canvas> to resize it and toDataURL it into the CSS
# [02:06] <Philip`> (except that doesn't work because of the security restrictions :-( )
# [02:07] <Hixie> (i reported the overescaped html issue)
# [02:07] <Hixie> (thanks)
# [02:12] * Hixie continues working on http://damowmow.com/playground/spec-annotation/001.html
# [02:12] <Hixie> (which is what i need those icons for, btw)
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# [02:18] <othermaciej> cute
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# [03:45] <jruderman> Hixie: i think http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/page-loading/incremental/001.cgi?mime=text%2Fxml&delay=1&repeats=10 is busted
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# [04:34] <Hixie> jruderman: could be
# [04:35] <Hixie> jruderman: not sure how to fix it
# [04:52] <jruderman> Hixie: :/
# [04:52] <jruderman> not having that test makes me sad, because it was the testcase for https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=368909
# [04:53] <Hixie> can you tell what's going on?
# [04:53] <Hixie> is it getting gzipped or something?
# [04:53] <Hixie> i don't really even know where to begin looking for a fix
# [04:53] <jruderman> dunno. i tried using telnet last week but didn't get very far.
# [04:55] <jruderman> ok, yeah, it's getting gzipped
# [04:55] <Hixie> that's really weird
# [04:56] <Hixie> gzip is disabled on this server in theory
# [04:56] <Hixie> maybe i'm going through some sort of proxy or something
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# [07:41] <Dan-> hello
# [07:43] <Dan-> any iphone software developers here?
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# [07:57] <othermaciej> Dan-: in what sense?
# [07:58] <Dan-> i want to start a new company
# [07:59] <Dan-> and need people to program web apps for the iphone
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# [08:23] <mitsuhiko> andrioid ftw!
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# [08:38] <othermaciej> Dan-: you can probably look for anyone who is a good web developer then
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# [09:40] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/playground/spec-annotation/001.html
# [09:40] <Hixie> if anyone wants to fill in the XXX parts in http://damowmow.com/playground/spec-annotation/status.js -- be my guest :-)
# [09:41] <Hixie> (in particular, the network object at the bottom)
# [09:41] <Hixie> (see also http://damowmow.com/playground/spec-annotation/PROTOCOL )
# [09:42] <OmegaJunior> Interesting. Using Javascript to automate compliance testing?
# [09:43] <OmegaJunior> No, it does something else
# [09:46] <zcorpan> Hixie: nice
# [09:47] <OmegaJunior> I happen to prefer using Opera... Does Opera not support the feature or does your feature only work in MSIE?
# [09:47] <Hixie> i doubt it works in IE
# [09:47] <jacobolus> Hixie: what's it supposed to do?
# [09:48] <OmegaJunior> It tells me it only works in MSIE though...
# [09:48] <Hixie> jacobolus: i hope to evneutally develop it to allow us to annotate sections of the spec
# [09:48] <Hixie> OmegaJunior: seems to work fine in opera 9.x
# [09:48] <OmegaJunior> Wouldn't that require a javascripted write action to the server document?>
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# [09:49] <jacobolus> Hixie: so the javascript is supposed to do what then?
# [09:49] <OmegaJunior> OK, I'll try again and disregard the status message.
# [09:49] <jacobolus> i.e. what does SpecStatusNetworkConnection do?
# [09:49] <Hixie> jacobolus: the XXX bits?
# [09:49] <Hixie> jacobolus: it's the API between the UI and the server
# [09:49] <Hixie> jacobolus: it'll do XHR calls to the cgi scritps (which are also yet to be written)
# [09:50] <jacobolus> gotcha
# [09:50] <Hixie> basically it implements what that PROTOCOL file describes
# [09:50] <OmegaJunior> Cute
# [09:50] <Hixie> anyway, unless someone beats me to it, i'll work on those XXX bits tomorrow :-)
# [09:50] <jacobolus> Hixie: so those XXX bits are pretty simple then. they just do a cgi call and then update the UI?
# [09:50] <OmegaJunior> It's like Google Maps, using Javascript to add material to a server-based file
# [09:50] <Hixie> then it's the server side, unless mike smith beats me to it
# [09:51] <Hixie> jacobolus: just do a cgi call and then invoke the callback, yeah
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# [09:51] <jacobolus> aha. so why are they all separate functions? seems like it'll just be repeated code
# [09:51] <OmegaJunior> Hixie: you\re right, the feature does work in Opera 9. The Implementation Status tells us otherwise.
# [09:52] <Hixie> OmegaJunior: you may be confusing the test data with some sort of report on the code itself
# [09:52] <OmegaJunior> Possible
# [09:52] <Hixie> jacobolus: look at the PROTOCOL file, they each have different things they have to send
# [09:52] <OmegaJunior> :)
# [09:53] <OmegaJunior> Oh, I see. Yes, I did misinterpret that Implementation Status.
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# [10:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: very cool.
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# [10:30] <zcorpan> hmm, ie doesn't seem to interpret us-ascii as windows-1252
# [10:30] <zcorpan> it seems to convert high bytes to some ascii character
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# [11:59] <hsivonen> I need Open Source (non-viral) author readable succinct descriptions of the expected syntax for each attribute value microsyntax in HTML5
# [11:59] <hsivonen> should I write my own?
# [12:00] <OmegaJunior> Delegate to working group?
# [12:01] <hsivonen> which one? the WHATWG? W3C document output is not Open Source in general
# [12:02] <OmegaJunior> Hmm.
# [12:02] <OmegaJunior> Start a draft on WikiPedia, select open source license, have others add on and correct.
# [12:03] <hsivonen> hmm. I guess I'll start a draft on the WHATWG wiki as its licensing policy suits my needs
# [12:04] <OmegaJunior> Suggested WikiPedia for the larger audience.
# [12:04] <OmegaJunior> Granted, WhatWG wiki will reach target group.
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# [12:33] <mpt> OmegaJunior, Wikipedia is licensed under the FDL, which is share-alike aka viral
# [12:34] <mpt> And you'd likely have people crying "WP:NOT", too
# [12:34] <OmegaJunior> Hmm. MediaWiki allows several license options. I had hoped WikiPedia would allow that as well.
# [12:35] <OmegaJunior> People will cry that about any kind of social encyclopedia, but also about any non-open source too
# [12:35] <OmegaJunior> They'll cry because they like to cry.
# [12:35] <mpt> particularly "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information"
# [12:35] <OmegaJunior> Is anything?
# [12:36] <mpt> No, but that's not relevant to this question :-)
# [12:36] <OmegaJunior> :D
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# [12:37] <hsivonen> It seems to me there's quite a bit of original research on Wikipedia and people complain semirandomly when they don't like the results
# [12:38] <OmegaJunior> So they should do their own research and publish their own results.
# [12:39] <mpt> There's quite a bit of lots of things that are against Wikipedia policy on Wikipedia, and some people will remove it for political reasons, but others will remove it because it's against Wikipedia policy
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# [13:38] <jacobolus> hsivonen: they mostly complain when they know that some bit of it is BS
# [13:38] <jacobolus> (which is quite common :)
# [13:38] <jacobolus> some "original research" is pretty useful, and sticks around
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# [13:39] <jacobolus> hsivonen: what's an attribute value microsyntax?
# [13:39] <hsivonen> jacobolus: e.g. floating point number, media query, MIME type, IRI reference
# [13:40] <jacobolus> why do you need a non-viral license?
# [13:41] <jacobolus> or you want to incorporate it into some non-free derivative work?
# [13:43] <jacobolus> hsivonen: how many of those are there? is it a major undertaking to write such a document?
# [13:45] <hsivonen> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MicrosyntaxDescriptions
# [13:46] <hsivonen> jacobolus: I want the software as a whole to be embeddable as widely as possible and I want it to be packageable for Debian which is likely to invoke GPLv3 for some parts and I can't have competing strong copyleft licenses in there
# [13:47] <jacobolus> gotcha
# [13:47] <jacobolus> yeah, that is pretty many of them :)
# [13:47] <jacobolus> shouldn't be too hard to fill in if you put out a blog post or something
# [13:56] <hsivonen> jacobolus: I think I'll fill in a sample entry and then announce the project on the wiki
# [14:22] <hsivonen> hmm. a couple of Polish link spammers have found the WHATWG blog
# [14:24] <hsivonen> zapped the moderation queue
# [14:32] <hsivonen> I wrote sample content for language tags: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MicrosyntaxDescriptions#Language
# [14:33] <hsivonen> does it look author-readable?
# [14:33] <hsivonen> that is, is it a good sample?
# [14:35] <hsivonen> can anyone think of a politically correct non-contrived example of a language tag that has language, non-default script and a region?
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# [14:43] <hsivonen> Lachy, Hixie: blog.whatwg.org warns that WordPress is out of date
# [14:43] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it looks ok to me
# [14:43] <zcorpan> (the language tag text, that is)
# [14:44] <Lachy> hsivonen, yes, I'm aware. It's just a minor revision update that I need to do later
# [14:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks.
# [14:44] <hsivonen> Lachy: ok
# [14:46] <hsivonen> posted announcement
# [14:51] * zcorpan gets an index of/ at blog.whatwg.org
# [14:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan: weird. works for me
# [14:54] <Lachy> I just tried upgrading, but will have to do it later
# [14:54] <Lachy> things got messed up. it's restored now
# [15:03] <zcorpan> works now, yep
# [15:04] <Lachy> blog is now upgraded
# [15:04] <Lachy> I should probably update the wiki to the latest version of media wiki later too
# [15:06] <dglazkov> hi all
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# [15:43] <zcorpan> Lachy: links point to 404s in the blog
# [15:43] <zcorpan> e.g. http://blog.whatwg.org/microsyntax-descriptions
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# [16:01] <Lachy> zcorpan, hsivonen, fixed. I just forgot to copy .htaccess
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# [16:05] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks
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# [17:08] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/xml/xml-stylesheet/
# [17:08] <zcorpan> time to start drafting a spec
# [17:09] <zcorpan> any opinions off-hand?
# [17:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do you mean you are going to write style sheet PI 5?
# [17:10] <zcorpan> yes
# [17:10] <hsivonen> nice
# [17:10] <hsivonen> so many specs in need of the 5 treament
# [17:10] <zcorpan> indeed
# [17:16] <zcorpan> btw, does someone know enough xslt to know how http://simon.html5.org/test/xml/xml-stylesheet/support/transform.xml can be modified such that the <title> survives the transform?
# [17:16] * zcorpan knows close to nothing about xslt
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# [18:54] <gsnedders> hmmm… my site rather breaks in IE5.01. sorry 0.25% of my site's visitors. the 0.2% using IE5.5 are fine, though
# [18:56] <Philip`> My recent sites break in IE6 and IE7 too, and it was only intentional in one of them
# [18:57] <Philip`> (*one of the sites)
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# [19:04] <zcorpan> interesting. ie parses entities twice when you feed it xml with a css stylesheet -- once with the xml parser and then again with the html parser
# [19:06] <zcorpan> test case: <?xml-stylesheet type='text/css'?><a>&amp;</a>
# [19:06] <zcorpan> (actual result: "&", expected result: "&")
# [19:07] <zcorpan> you can also use &auml; or so to confirm that html entities work
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# [19:25] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/specs/xml-stylesheet5
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# [20:58] <Hixie> well. the http group is a whole new level of wow.
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# [20:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: ?
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# [21:02] <gsnedders> Hixie: multi-content-type?
# [21:03] <gsnedders> Hixie: or the RFC 2119 discussion?
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# [21:22] <Hixie> gsnedders: all mail to that list in the last 24 hours
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# [21:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: well, over 50% of that is RFC 2119 :(
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# [21:25] * gsnedders wonders if he actually has any homework that isn't overdue
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# [21:58] <gsnedders> why the hell does the UCAS pre-registration form require you to choose six subject areas you may be interested in studying at higher education!?
# [21:59] <Philip`> Pre-registration?
# [22:00] <Philip`> (I guess this isn't the same as the thing where you choose six courses/universities to apply to)
# [22:00] <gsnedders> Philip`: nowadays you're meant to get a UCAS card in Year 12/S5
# [22:01] <gsnedders> this form is badly marked up and badly worded and illogical.
# [22:01] <Philip`> Oh, okay
# [22:01] <gsnedders> do not…receive…by mail
# [22:01] <gsnedders> do…receive…by email
# [22:01] <gsnedders> do…receive…by text messaging
# [22:01] <gsnedders> can we not be consistent!?
# [22:02] * gsnedders wonders if he can get away with putting just four subjects down
# [22:02] <Philip`> It's annoying when they take a mostly-understandable paper form and then migrate to an online system which doesn't work and doesn't make sense and is full of errors
# [22:02] <gsnedders> (as, quite frankly, if I didn't get in for any of them, I wouldn't go to uni)
# [22:02] <gsnedders> it seems to have worked
# [22:02] <Philip`> and then charge you £20 to apply onlnie instead of on paper
# [22:02] <gsnedders> heh
# [22:03] <Philip`> *online
# [22:03] <gsnedders> Philip`: you're at Cam, aren't you?
# [22:03] <Philip`> I am
# [22:03] <gsnedders> which college?
# [22:03] <Philip`> King's
# [22:03] <gsnedders> nice
# [22:04] <Philip`> I think it is :-)
# [22:04] <gsnedders> my sister went to Sewlyn to do law
# [22:04] <gsnedders> however you spell it :)
# [22:04] <gsnedders> admittedly, my sister is far older than me (i.e., old enough to legally be my mother!)
# [22:05] <Philip`> *Selwyn :-p
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# [22:05] <gsnedders> yeah, phonetically that makes more sense
# [22:05] <gsnedders> :)
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# [22:06] <gsnedders> (
# [22:06] * gsnedders facedesks
# [22:06] <gsnedders> typing what you want to say before pressing return helps.
# [22:07] <gsnedders> *(I'm planning on doing computational physics, having talked to various people, to a master's degree: neither of oxbridge offer it)
# [22:08] <Philip`> I walk past Selwyn most days, but don't really know much about it except that I don't particularly like the name
# [22:08] <gsnedders> the actual quad is nice, not so the rest of the site
# [22:09] <gsnedders> Question 2 of my Computing homework (given to 16/17 y/os): "What is a _user interface_?"
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# [22:10] <gsnedders> now, time to try and get back to doing my homework :)
# [22:12] <Philip`> (My old physics teacher was quite happy that Cambridge forces you do to Natural Sciences for a year instead of something specialised like physics, since he originally went there to do chemistry and then changed his mind)
# [22:14] * gsnedders writes date in ISO8601 form, just too confuse most of his teachers and prove he will not be forced to break specs :P
# [22:14] <gsnedders> (in the basic form, and therefore without hyphens)
# [22:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: I haven't done any other sciences since before the two-year Standard Grade (GCSE equiv.) course started
# [22:16] <gsnedders> Philip`: ironically, I am actually better than some people who have done chemistry/biology Standard Grade
# [22:17] <gsnedders> I occasionally wish I had done chemistry, but I've never liked biology at all really
# [22:18] <Philip`> There are a few options in the NatSci first year that don't require any previous knowledge, like, uh, geology
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# [22:20] <gsnedders> I will most likely go to Edi, and go straight into second year (as traditionally in Scotland you go to uni after S5 — I'm staying on to S6 and will have done A-Level equivs. (some people just take two years to get to A-S level equivs.))
# [22:21] <gsnedders> and going straight into second year limits the options for outside subjects, partly as you have extra teaching of the one or two things you'll be missing from the slightly more specialist course at uni
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# [22:24] <gsnedders> How much of the algorithm is actually designed by the programmers in large software development companies?
# [22:24] * gsnedders has his doubts about quite how true what he is being taught is
# [22:25] <Philip`> "the algorithm"?
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# [22:31] <gsnedders> i.e., a formal design such as that within HTML 5's UA requirements
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# [22:44] <gsnedders> as is taught, every tiny smallest stage is defined
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# [23:21] * jgraham_ points out that he did Cellular Biology in his first year of Natural Sciences despite not having done Biology since GCSE
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# [23:22] <jgraham_> (although in retrospect the computer science option would have been much more useful, although Cells was fun)
# [23:24] <gsnedders> jgraham: I stopped the two before GCSE equiv :P
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# [23:29] <jgraham_> hmm my keyboard just stopped working entirely.
# [23:29] <Philip`> (I'm not sure the first year of CS is especially useful, particularly the 25% version - most of the interesting bits come in later years)
# [23:29] <jgraham_> Philip`: The same is true of almost all of Nat. Sci.
# [23:30] <jgraham_> I guess
# [23:34] * jgraham_ finds it slightly odd that he works ~5 minutes from Philip` yet they have never knowingly met
# [23:35] * gsnedders won't have the excuse in a month's time of having a grand-mother in Cambridge
# [23:36] <jgraham_> gsnedders: the excuse for what?
# [23:36] <gsnedders> jgraham_: going to Cambridge
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# Session Close: Wed Nov 21 00:00:00 2007

The end :)