/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-11-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 21 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  35. # [00:02] <Philip`> jgraham_: It seems surprisingly hard to meet people accidentally - there are a few people in Cambridge from my previous school who I've only encountered by chance about twice in three years
  36. # [00:03] <Philip`> (or maybe that's just because I don't hang around the colleges much)
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  56. # [01:09] <Hixie> arg, karl is again implying (not very subtly) that browser vendors are somehow hostile to the desires of web developers
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  58. # [01:09] <jgraham_> Hixie: where?
  59. # [01:09] <Hixie> public-html
  60. # [01:10] * jgraham_ hasn't got that yet
  61. # [01:11] <jgraham_> Oh. What an odd email.
  62. # [01:14] <Dashiva> The vast browser-wing conspiracy lives on
  63. # [01:16] <jgraham_> I wonder why browser makers would want to implement features that "a big majority" of web designers and developers were opposed to.
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  65. # [01:17] <Hixie> i think the history of whatwg has shown that should that happen, the spec changes pretty fast to match the desires of said developers
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  68. # [01:33] <othermaciej> I think most browser vendors would like to give web designers what they need and want, on the engine side
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  70. # [01:34] <Hixie> othermaciej: of course, that's the easiest way to get web developer mindshare, which is a good way to get more market share
  71. # [01:34] <othermaciej> certainly Apple has no nefarious plan to force in features that web designers actively are hostile to
  72. # [01:34] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm baffled as to why karl believes otherwise
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  74. # [01:34] <othermaciej> and I can't imagine what motive we'd have to do so
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  76. # [01:35] <othermaciej> not only that, but I am not sure there is such a thing as a feature that a majority of web developers hate so much that they don't want to see it implemented
  77. # [01:35] <Hixie> yeah, they'd just ignore it if they didn't like it
  78. # [01:35] <othermaciej> that they would be actively upset to see it
  79. # [01:36] <jgraham_> I assume he feels that browsers are over-represented in the group and other communities are under represented and therefore concludes that we might do something browser friendly that is hostile to those other communities. But I don't think the conclusion follows in general (for the reason mentioned)
  80. # [01:37] <jruderman> what feature is he unhappy about?
  81. # [01:37] <jgraham_> although in can in specific cases e.g. features that are hard to use in a WYSIWYG editor
  82. # [01:37] <othermaciej> browser vendors are highly motivated by economic incentives to do what web developers and end users want
  83. # [01:37] <gavin> jruderman: I don't think he's pointed to a specific feature
  84. # [01:38] <jgraham_> othermaciej: agreed
  85. # [01:39] <jgraham_> I guess s/for the reason mentioned/for the reasons mentioned by othermaciej and Hixie/
  86. # [01:40] <webben> I wonder if " some features of the specification" could actually just mean "some aspects of the specification"
  87. # [01:41] <webben> (especially given the immediate context was a discussion of whether things should be namespaced, which is more of an implementation detail than a feature)
  88. # [01:41] <othermaciej> it is highly unlikely that a majority of web developers want specific features to be in a foreign namespace
  89. # [01:42] <othermaciej> it is highly unlikely that a majority of web developers would even know what that means, let alone have an opinion
  90. # [01:43] <Philip`> Is a foreign namespace one that's written in German?
  91. # [01:44] <webben> othermaciej: Well, I guess the relevant datum is developers already namespacing stuff in text/html content.
  92. # [01:45] <webben> They don't really need to know what they're doing to have existing practices.
  93. # [01:45] <othermaciej> webben: would that be evidence that web developers want built-in elements to be namespaced, or that web developers don't understand XML namespaces?
  94. # [01:46] <webben> Neither.
  95. # [01:46] <webben> But I suspect those devs don't want their content to break.
  96. # [01:47] <webben> And would not be perturbed by new features that were namespaced.
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  197. # [17:11] * gsnedders replies on ietf-http-wg
  198. # [17:13] <zcorpan> pointer?
  199. # [17:15] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2007OctDec/0233.html
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  217. # [19:46] <Hixie> wtf happened in public-html
  218. # [19:46] <Hixie> we had weeks of nice constructive discussion and suddenly a massive thread about nothing
  219. # [19:48] <hober> Yeah, I threw exactly one post in there to try to steer it toward specific changes to spec text: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0319.html
  220. # [19:48] <hober> I doubt it actually helped though
  221. # [19:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: looks like I was wrong to stir the "Web pro syntax" thing
  222. # [19:49] <hsivonen> sorry
  223. # [19:50] <Hixie> i love the people demanding that we remove the option to omit quotes on attribute values
  224. # [19:51] <Hixie> especially given that there are significant groups demanding that we keep that feature
  225. # [19:54] <Hixie> i have to say though
  226. # [19:54] <Hixie> i don't understand what all that thread was about
  227. # [19:54] <Hixie> if people want to write docs, they should do so
  228. # [19:54] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@cpe-66-108-205-3.nyc.res.rr.com)
  229. # [19:54] <Hixie> as anne pointed out, the only people who have written intro docus so far are him and (to a lesser extent) me
  230. # [19:55] <Hixie> so if people want more docs, they should stop whining and just write
  231. # [19:58] <hsivonen> well, I whined what I *don't* want written *within* the WG and it went downhill from there
  232. # [19:59] <hsivonen> I guess I should have waited for someone to write something before whining about the wrong thing getting written
  233. # [19:59] <Lachy> I suppose I could just get started and write something
  234. # [20:02] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-13-47.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  235. # [20:03] <Hixie> Lachy: if you write something we won't have to worry about the wrong thing being written :-)
  236. # [20:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, i think in retrospect when an area has a history if being all talk and no action, whining about the potential action is counterproductive
  237. # [20:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: i guess we learn something every day :-)
  238. # [20:05] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-8795a0b5f1fc2d6e)
  239. # [20:06] <Lachy> Chaals indicated he's happy for me to work on it, should I check with DanC or Karl if their happy for me to be an editor first?
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  244. # [20:22] <Hixie> Lachy: i see no reason _not_ to check, but they'd be pretty silly to say no :-)
  245. # [20:22] <Hixie> Lachy: anyway you can always publish it elsewhere if the w3c doesn't want it
  246. # [20:22] <Hixie> btw karl is no longer our staff contact
  247. # [20:22] <Hixie> that's mike smith now
  248. # [20:25] <MikeSmith> but karl is the one taking initiative on any work related to separate docs for authors
  249. # [20:26] <Lachy> yeah, that's why I thought I should check with him
  250. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> as far as I can see, it's not necessary and probably not useful for me to involve myself
  251. # [20:27] <Lachy> Do I have write access to the html5 folder in CVS? I have it for webapi and waf, do I need to get it enabled for html5 too?
  252. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> Lachy - probably maybe
  253. # [20:27] <Lachy> I suppose I could just try it out when I have something to commit. If not, do I just mail sysreq?
  254. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> Lachy - please try a commit
  255. # [20:28] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T73d2.t.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  256. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> if it doesn't work, I can ping system team to set it up
  257. # [20:29] <Lachy> alright, I'll create an html-author folder for this
  258. # [20:29] <Lachy> it worked
  259. # [20:29] <MikeSmith> Lachy - maybe just htm5/authoring ?
  260. # [20:31] <Lachy> I figured html-author would be a good short name for when it eventually goes to /TR/html-author/
  261. # [20:31] <Lachy> but then html5-author would probably be better
  262. # [20:31] * Lachy will fix it
  263. # [20:33] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@121-72-37-16.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  264. # [20:35] <MikeSmith> Lachy - name in the repository doesn't need to be the same as shortname for TR space
  265. # [20:35] <Lachy> ok
  266. # [20:35] <Lachy> so you want me to rename it to authoring?
  267. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> Lachy - it doesn't matter really
  268. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> If you've already created it
  269. # [20:37] <hsivonen> hmm. canvas hit the html4all list
  270. # [20:37] <Lachy> ok, I'll leave it. It's easier than trying to mess around renaming stuff in CVS (I've had bad experience with CVS in the past, I didn't want to risk it :-))
  271. # [20:37] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@121-72-37-16.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Client Quit)
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  273. # [20:40] <Hixie> as far as i can tell dev.w3.org doesn't have per directory access
  274. # [20:41] * Lachy notes that Dreamweaver cannot handle opening and editing a 2MB file!
  275. # [20:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: using the spec as a stress test case?
  276. # [20:43] <Lachy> I was using the current spec as a starting point, and was just going to rewrite the intro and strip out all stuff aimed at implementers
  277. # [20:43] <Lachy> I'll have to find a better editor that can handle large files
  278. # [20:44] <Philip`> The spec needs reorganisation to be readable, not just stripping things out
  279. # [20:45] <Lachy> Philip`, yeah, but it's got all the element definitions in there
  280. # [20:45] <Hixie> if all you want to do is make a version of the spec for authors, i'd wait for the spec itself to have that annotated
  281. # [20:45] <Hixie> i thought you wanted to write a totally separate document
  282. # [20:46] <Hixie> keeping a document in sync with the html5 spec is going to be a gigantic amount of work for you
  283. # [20:46] <Lachy> Hixie, it will be more than than that. But it will include the element element definitions (i.e. the contnet models and dom apis) is a starting point
  284. # [20:47] <Hixie> ok, but fyi, the content models are very much in flux (i haven't yet looked at much of henri's feedback)
  285. # [20:47] <Lachy> I realise that
  286. # [20:47] <Hixie> ok
  287. # [20:48] <Hixie> just don't want you getting snowed in with make-work :-)
  288. # [20:48] <Hixie> afk, going to work
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  295. # [21:20] <virtuelv> Lachy: on documents that large, the only thing that works is either VI or emacs
  296. # [21:20] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-210-2.dsl.pipex.com)
  297. # [21:27] <Lachy> I don't like vi or emacs, they're too complicated
  298. # [21:28] <virtuelv> OpenKomodo also handles some of the stuff I do ok-ish
  299. # [21:28] <virtuelv> (but it pretty much chokes on the html5 spec
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  303. # [21:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: you are on Mac, TextWrangler works
  304. # [21:47] <Lachy> I do my editing on the PC cause it has a bigger screen and better keyboard
  305. # [21:47] <Lachy> I just use this macbook for IRC, IM clients, email, browsing, etc.
  306. # [21:48] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@202.180.114.137)
  307. # [21:48] <Lachy> I also need to find a nice CVS and SVN client for the mac that gives me a simple GUI like TortoiseSVN/CVS do on Windows
  308. # [21:50] * hsivonen uses command line and Eclipse
  309. # [21:50] <Hixie> command line and emacs baby
  310. # [21:50] <Hixie> (there's no other real solution that works under ssh)
  311. # [21:51] <Lachy> I like to avoid command line where possible, since it's requires too much typing
  312. # [21:51] <hsivonen> I just rediscovered that HTML5 floats and WF2 floats are different
  313. # [21:51] <Hixie> that's what scripts are for
  314. # [21:53] <hsivonen> hmm. when I'm done with HTML5 (including WF2) datatypes, the only XSD thing left is ID or NCName
  315. # [21:53] <Lachy> hmm. OSX doesn't include the cvs command by default
  316. # [21:53] <hsivonen> Lachy: it does if you install everything that came in the box
  317. # [21:53] <hsivonen> Lachy: Leopard includes svn, too
  318. # [21:53] <Hixie> yeah you might have to install the dev tools
  319. # [21:53] <hsivonen> (everything includes the Developer Tools)
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  322. # [21:54] <Lachy> I installed the XCode tools earlier today
  323. # [21:54] <hsivonen> I need to come up with nice names for WF2 floats
  324. # [21:54] * Joins: grimboy (n=grimboy@85-211-255-72.dsl.pipex.com)
  325. # [21:55] <hsivonen> nice names for code and nice names for UI
  326. # [21:55] <hsivonen> floating point number with optional exponent?
  327. # [21:55] <hsivonen> float-exp
  328. # [21:55] <Hixie> yeah, sorry about the mess there
  329. # [21:55] <Hixie> not sure exactly what we should do with those
  330. # [21:56] <Hixie> hopefully the forms task force will finish soon and we'll be able to finally merge WF2 with HTML5
  331. # [21:56] <Hixie> (hahaha)
  332. # [21:57] <Hixie> oh hey, only two more days til the "forms tf internal charter review period" ends
  333. # [21:58] <hsivonen> oops email, mimetype-list and charset-list have fallen through the cracks
  334. # [21:58] <hsivonen> more entries for the wiki page
  335. # [21:58] <hsivonen> more code to write
  336. # [21:58] <Hixie> anyone want to lay odds on the review period being extended because everyone forgot to review the charter?
  337. # [21:58] <Hixie> i give it about even odds
  338. # [21:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: saying it here is tampering with the odds
  339. # [21:59] <Hixie> i guess so
  340. # [21:59] <Hixie> though i don't know in which direction :-)
  341. # [22:00] <hsivonen> I feel tempted to restrict charset-list to charsets that are implemented and sane
  342. # [22:00] <hsivonen> but I guess in theory I should scrape the IANA registry
  343. # [22:01] <hsivonen> I expect unexpected craziness in the email datatype
  344. # [22:01] <Hixie> i think i scoped out the craziness of the e-mail datatype
  345. # [22:02] <Hixie> by picking a strategic entry point for you
  346. # [22:02] <hsivonen> ah. excellent. thanks
  347. # [22:03] <hsivonen> oh. cute. dependency on IDN and, therefore, Punycode
  348. # [22:04] <Hixie> ah yeah, can't help you avoid that, sorry.
  349. # [22:06] <hsivonen> minor nit: I think you should say "addr-spec production" instead of "addr-spec token"
  350. # [22:09] <Hixie> yeah, good point. can you send mail? i'll totally forget it by the time i get back to wf2.
  351. # [22:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: email sent
  352. # [22:09] <Hixie> ta
  353. # [22:11] <Lachy> I haven't seen any comments on public-forms-tf about the charter since the telcon at the end of october. I don't think anyone has reviewed it :-)
  354. # [22:12] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah, exactly
  355. # [22:12] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@222-152-141-47.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
  356. # [22:12] <Hixie> it's not really clear to me that anyone on the task force actually really cares, to be honest
  357. # [22:13] <Lachy> nice to know the task force working as expected :-)
  358. # [22:13] <Hixie> no comment
  359. # [22:14] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Nick collision from services.)
  360. # [22:14] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  361. # [22:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: is it intentional that 1. is a valid HTML5 float
  362. # [22:16] <hsivonen> ?
  363. # [22:16] <hsivonen> it isn't a valid WF2 float
  364. # [22:17] <hsivonen> hmm. .1 is also not a valid WF2 float
  365. # [22:20] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  366. # [22:20] <Hixie> i doubt any of the differences are intentional
  367. # [22:20] <Hixie> they were mostly based on whatever i found when reverse engineering stuff
  368. # [22:20] <Hixie> it's likely the wf2 stuff is based on what i thought would be good, vs html5's stuff which is based on legacy implementations
  369. # [22:21] <hsivonen> makes sense since WF2 is a submission format
  370. # [22:21] <Hixie> yeah
  371. # [22:21] <hsivonen> however, for consistency, .1 and 1. could be made non-conforming on the non-WF2 side
  372. # [22:21] <Hixie> i'd rather make them conforming on the other side, if they work
  373. # [22:21] <Hixie> but yeah
  374. # [22:21] <Hixie> (especially .1)
  375. # [22:21] <hsivonen> I'm not sure if that would help authors, though
  376. # [22:22] <hsivonen> yeah
  377. # [22:22] <hsivonen> I guess they are now as good as they are going to get
  378. # [22:22] <hsivonen> and authors just have to deal with the discrepancy with leading/trailing zero omission
  379. # [22:22] <Hixie> what are? authors? :-)
  380. # [22:22] <Hixie> oh, the formats
  381. # [22:22] <Hixie> i'd like them the same if we can
  382. # [22:22] <Hixie> but i'm not sure we can
  383. # [22:25] <hsivonen> the wiki list of microsyntaxes keeps growing
  384. # [22:26] <hsivonen> 31 already. I'm going to add 2 more
  385. # [22:28] <hsivonen> and that's ignoring the inputmode attribute, because magically, it is actually possible to construct with RELAX NG list{}
  386. # [22:31] <Hixie> heh
  387. # [22:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2007OctDec/0241.html — more mailing list fun
  388. # [22:33] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  389. # [22:33] <hsivonen> in due course, I should write a by-reference spec for these 33 microsyntaxes
  390. # [22:34] <Hixie> gsnedders: actually it would make a lot of sense for ABNF to support namespaces
  391. # [22:34] <Hixie> gsnedders: since it's a programming format
  392. # [22:34] <gsnedders> hsivonen: if you want oddities in the microsyntaxes in HTML 5, take a look at my emails on public-html (just search the subject for something like detailed spec review of common microsyntaxes)
  393. # [22:35] <gsnedders> Hixie: agreed
  394. # [22:35] <Hixie> the biggest problem with ABNF is that it is REALLY freaking hard to write ABNF in a way that defines error handling
  395. # [22:35] <Hixie> that's the main reason i don't use it much
  396. # [22:35] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I don't want oddities. I just think that the RELAX NG datatype library for HTML5 should have a spec
  397. # [22:35] <Hixie> (i used it for the event-source stuff, and even there, where i was TRYING to define error handling, i still made mistakes, and ended up having to duplicate the work in prose anyway)
  398. # [22:36] <hsivonen> precise enough to let someone write an interoperable implementation in another programming language without looking at my code
  399. # [22:36] <Hixie> i've found some sites that use an "adx.js" library
  400. # [22:36] <Hixie> anyone know anything about it?
  401. # [22:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: in reply to the one on the same list yesterday regarding error handling, I got told basically that I could do it in another spec, and they wouldn't do it
  402. # [22:36] <Hixie> gsnedders: cool, a license to write a replacement http spec from the http group
  403. # [22:36] <Hixie> gsnedders: sounds like a plan!
  404. # [22:37] <hsivonen> RFC 26165
  405. # [22:37] <gsnedders> RFC2616bisbis
  406. # [22:38] <Hixie> oh maybe this is openads
  407. # [22:39] <hsivonen> do mailto URL allow something crazier than what WF2 allows for the address?
  408. # [23:03] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@202.180.114.137)
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  410. # [23:12] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
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  412. # [23:15] * Joins: phsiao (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-2b0004034e340840)
  413. # [23:25] <hsivonen> bah. mediawiki does not like <samp>
  414. # [23:27] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@233.80-203-100.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  415. # [23:33] * Joins: Charl (n=charlvn@c1-243-1.wblv.isadsl.co.za)
  416. # [23:43] <Hixie> http://www.losingfight.com/blog/2006/08/11/the-sordid-tale-of-mm_menufw_menujs/ is funny
  417. # [23:51] * Quits: phsiao (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-2b0004034e340840)
  418. # [23:53] <Dashiva> I've been in that "expert" position way too often. Who am I going to hate now? :P
  419. # [23:55] <Hixie> hehe
  420. # [23:55] <Hixie> anyone able to work out what tmv11.js is from?
  421. # [23:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: are you mining the most common scripts for declarative features to add?
  422. # [23:58] <Hixie> i'm mining the most common scripts, yeah
  423. # [23:58] <Hixie> for various reasons, one of which is finding out what is needed for html5
  424. # Session Close: Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 2007

The end :)