Options:
- # 00:00 < othermaciej> Does Mozilla's 3d canvas stuff use OpenGL?
- # 00:01 < Philip`> othermaciej: Yes
- # 00:01 < Philip`> (The API is OpenGL ES, so it's a subset of OpenGL, and it's currently implemented using OpenGL)
- # 00:01 < othermaciej> does that mean you can't alpha-composite things over it? Or does it just turn off hardware acceleration in that case?
- # 00:02 < othermaciej> actually, I guess it must be rendering to a backing store anyway just to draw over normal canvas stuff
- # 00:02 < othermaciej> so likely not fully accelerated all the way to the screen
- # 00:03 < alp> othermaciej: it used to use glitz to render the graphics context to gl as well, iirc. don't know if it still does
- # 00:03 < Lachy> when did Mozilla add 3d canvas?
- # 00:04 < Philip`> othermaciej: I can put a translucent <div> over the 3d canvas and it all looks properly blended
- # 00:04 < Lachy> is it compatible with Opera's 3D canvas?
- # 00:04 < Philip`> Lachy: It's currently just an unreleased extension
- # 00:04 < Lachy> ok
- # 00:04 < othermaciej> I don't think it's compatible
- # 00:04 < Lachy> so looks like we really need to get this standardised soon
- # 00:05 < othermaciej> and I think its existence as an extension predates Opera's API
- # 00:05 < Philip`> It's totally different to Opera's
- # 00:05 < Lachy> Philip`, which one do you think is better from an authoring perspective?
- # 00:05 < othermaciej> my understanding is that Mozilla's is very low-level, pretty close to the actual OpenGL API
- # 00:06 < Philip`> Someone said Opera "implemented 3D Canvas 2-3 years ago" though I don't know how much they've changed since then
- # 00:06 < aroben> http://my.opera.com/timjoh/blog/2007/11/13/taking-the-canvas-to-another-dimension has some of the motivation behind Opera's API
- # 00:07 < Philip`> Lachy: Opera's one is easier to use if you're programming straight to the API and not using any helper libraries, except it barely has any features (e.g. you can't do dynamic lighting) and it would need some redesigning in order to support those features
- # 00:07 < othermaciej> it seems like if you want things like collision detection you might also want an API model with a fully retained scene graph
- # 00:08 < Philip`> I'd prefer to implement high-level scene graph things in JS, and have the browser provide just a low-level rendering API
- # 00:08 < Philip`> (hence me trying to implement X3D in JS to see if that's feasible)
- # 00:09 < othermaciej> is X3D a sensible spec?
- # 00:09 < othermaciej> I don't really know how it works
- # 00:10 < othermaciej> does it natively provide for things like collision detection, or embedding foreign markup as a texture and still being able to hit test it?
- # 00:11 < othermaciej> I gotta reboot
- # 00:11 < Philip`> I've only looked at small bits of X3D, and it seems far from perfect but not totally useless
- # 00:11 < othermaciej> back soon
- # 00:11 < Philip`> It has Collision sensors which can send events to make stuff happen
- # 00:12 < Philip`> X3D is full of undefined behaviour so I don't think browsers could reasonably implement it
- # 11:16 < hsivonen> http://www.flickr.com/photos/psd/1805709102
- # 12:00 * gsnedders stays by the shores of the sea of interoperability
- # 12:00 < gsnedders> (having followed the link to TBL's similar thing)
- # 12:29 < gsnedders> annevk2: in #whatwg!? what's happened?
- # 12:40 < hsivonen> Hixie: what Keynote feature did you use to create a timeline?
- # 13:05 * hsivonen is totally puzzled with Keynote not having an obvious way to turn a CVS table of labels and numbers into a bar chart
- # 14:22 < hsivonen> where might I find a reference to the W3C decision to leave 4.01 as the last version of HTML and move to XHTML
- # 14:28 < Dashiva> Not a good reference, but /tr/html leads to XHTML 1.0
- # 14:30 < hsivonen> Dashiva: I meant the meeting and its date when the XML course was decided
- # 14:45 < zcorpan> hsivonen: last time i searched for it i didn't find anything
- # 14:47 < hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. good to know
- # 14:48 < zcorpan> which was... hmm, perhaps 2 years ago
- # 14:52 < Lachy> hsivonen, it would have been decided around 1998-1999 when work on XHTML began
- # 15:59 < zcorpan> <title> <textarea> <style> <script> <xmp> <noscript> <iframe> <noembed> <noframes>
- # 15:59 < zcorpan> are there any others that are [R]CDATA elements?
- # 15:59 < zcorpan> <xml> in ie, i think, but other than that?
- # 16:04 < zcorpan> i guess <applet> and <object> are pseudo-CDATA in ie too
- # 17:50 < zcorpan> hsivonen: feature request: it would be useful to be able to group errors by message (perhaps so by default even), because often there are lots of errors of the same type and you usually fix them with a search-and-replace
- # 17:50 < zcorpan> e.g. http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cafefernando.com%2Fturkce%2F
- # 17:51 < zcorpan> s/group/collapse/
- # 17:56 < zcorpan> (in case that page changes: it contains lots of "<a .../><img/></a>" which results in lots of "Stray / in tag." and "An a start tag seen with already an active a element." messages)
- # 18:16 < hsivonen> zcorpan: feature request recorded. However, I probably won't be implementing the requested feature any time soon, because Validator.nu doesn't have the concept of "same type" and the whole architecture is designed to assume that such grouping is unwanted
- # 18:17 < hsivonen> so introducing the feature inside Validator.nu wouldn't be much easier than writing a separate front end that called Validator.nu using the Web service API and did the sorting
- # 18:17 < zcorpan> hsivonen: it could be javascript
- # 18:18 < hsivonen> zcorpan: true. I hadn't though of that
- # 18:18 < zcorpan> btw, do you think it would be useful for you if the PFWG produced schemas for XHTML+ARIA?
- # 18:19 < hsivonen> zcorpan: which XHTML?
- # 18:20 < hsivonen> zcorpan: which schema language?
- # 18:20 < zcorpan> not sure
- # 18:20 < hsivonen> I'm probably going to write XHTML5+ARIA in due course
- # 19:22 < aroben> Lachy: yt?
- # 19:23 < Lachy> y
- # 19:24 < aroben> Lachy: do you think http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Guide/ is an appropriate place for an overview of <canvas>?
- # 19:24 < aroben> Lachy: should the offline apps overview be merged in as well?
- # 19:26 < Lachy> aroben, if it's something that would be suitable for the Web Dev's Guide to HTML 5, then sure
- # 19:27 < aroben> Lachy: the offline apps overview is certainly something that developers will want to read, though I don't think it's developer-specific
- # 19:28 < Lachy> are you talking about an overview that already exists somewhere?
- # 19:28 < aroben> Lachy: for offline apps, yes
- # 19:29 < Lachy> link?
- # 19:29 < aroben> Lachy: Hixie and anne wrote it
- # 19:29 * aroben finds it
- # 19:29 < Lachy> this thing http://dev.w3.org/html5/offline-webapps/ ?
- # 19:29 < aroben> Lachy: yes
- # 19:33 < Lachy> it might be suitable, I'll have to think about it. I wasn't intending to look at that stuff for quite a while and will focus on the more stable sections
- # 19:34 < aroben> Lachy: I was thinking about starting to write a <canvas> overview, and so I wanted to figure out if I should just do it within the developer's guide
- # 19:39 < Philip`> aroben: Do you have ideas of what the overview would include? (I think duplicating the tutorial content that's already on the Mozilla wiki wouldn't be useful, but there are other things that aren't clearly written anywhere yet (as far as I'm aware))
- # 19:40 < hsivonen> is there a vector PDF whatwg logo available?
- # 19:40 < aroben> Philip`: I've only just started thinking about it
- # 19:41 < aroben> Philip`: existing documents I'm aware of are
- # 19:41 < aroben> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Drawing_Graphics_with_Canvas
- # 19:41 < aroben> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Canvas_tutorial
- # 19:41 < aroben> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/AppleApplications/Conceptual/SafariJSProgTopics/Tasks/Canvas.html
- # 19:42 < aroben> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/AppleApplications/Reference/SafariJSRef/Classes/Canvas.html
- # 19:45 < Philip`> aroben: Okay - I can't think of any other relevant documents except for scattered pieces in blogs and mailing lists
- # 19:45 < Lachy> aroben, you're welcome to contribute stuff about canvas if you like
- # 19:46 < Philip`> Oh, there's also some book stuff like http://safari.oreilly.com/0596102437/html_canvas which I can't read
- # 19:51 < aroben> Lachy: thanks, I guess we can always separate it out if we think that's more appropriate
- # 19:51 < aroben> Lachy: but I'd like to err on the side of fewer documents
- # 20:37 < Hixie> hsivonen: no special feature, just some shapes
- # 20:40 < hsivonen> Hixie: ok seems tedious. I implemented each year as a slide
- # 20:41 * gsnedders draws a circle around Hixie, and a square around hsivonen
- # 20:42 < hsivonen> (aside: I'm in awe over the level of suckiness of Keynote's chart tools and even more in awe over the suckiness of Numbers in general when trying to make something to paste to Keynote)
- # 20:48 < Hixie> hsivonen: oh it was _very_ tedious
- # 20:48 < Hixie> hsivonen: but it worked much better (imho) to have it all on one screen
- # 20:48 < Hixie> hsivonen: what version?
- # 20:51 < hsivonen> Hixie: '08
- # 20:54 < Hixie> hsivonen: ah. well. compared to v1, believe me, '08 is a dream.
- # 20:54 < Hixie> hsivonen: (also a dream compared to ppt)
- # 21:10 < hsivonen> hrm. Safari does not print SVG
- # 21:11 < hsivonen> Minefield print SVG but as bitmaps
- # 21:12 < hsivonen> and Opera crashes printing SVG
- # 21:13 < hsivonen> Prince to rescue
- # 21:18 < othermaciej> Safari doesn't print SVG?
- # 21:18 * othermaciej is mildly surprised
- # 21:19 < hsivonen> othermaciej: well, at least does not preview or save as PDF
- # 21:21 < othermaciej> does it refuse, or does the PDF come out blank?
- # 21:21 < hsivonen> othermaciej: comes out blank
The end :)