/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-11-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 28 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <kingryan> Hixie: you have an example of this js file?
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> no
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> that's the problem
  6. # [00:01] <Philip`> You wouldn't need the list of frequent scripts first - if there's a tiny random chance of remembering the page each time you see a script, then non-frequent scripts will have a very low chance of you ever remembering a page they were on, whereas frequent scripts will have a high chance, so it will all work out sensibly as long as you're not unlucky :-)
  7. # [00:01] <hsivonen> I wonder how long it will take until google starts searching SVG now that 3 out of the top 4 browsers support it
  8. # [00:02] <Hixie> Philip`: i can't do anything non-deterministic, since i have to be able to rerun any particular scan of any page with reliably the same results
  9. # [00:04] <Philip`> if (md5(uri) < 2^128 / 10^5) { remember uri }
  10. # [00:04] <Hixie> the uri's always the same, that's the problem :-)
  11. # [00:05] <Hixie> (i could base it on the page's url, i guess, but that still seems somewhat dodgy)
  12. # [00:05] <Hixie> it'll be easier just to special case the few uris i actually need to look for
  13. # [00:07] <Philip`> (I was thinking of 'uri' being of the page, so it would occasionally store the (page uri, script uri) pairs, as well as doing the normal counting of all script uri values)
  14. # [00:07] <Philip`> (and then it would only need a single pass)
  15. # [00:07] <Hixie> yeah
  16. # [00:07] <Hixie> it's not a bad idea
  17. # [00:09] <Philip`> I think it's crazy but maybe it'd work anyway :-)
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  20. # [00:48] <gsnedders> how awesome.
  21. # [00:49] <gsnedders> people are already finding my site searching for "http parsing specification"
  22. # [00:49] <gsnedders> The number of such referrals shows that people really do want such a thing
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  25. # [00:56] <Hixie> anyone know what crux.js might be for?
  26. # [00:56] <Hixie> (<script src="js/Crux/crux.js"></script>)
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  36. # [02:37] <Hixie> <script src="/static/affiliate_base/js/base.js"> anyone?
  37. # [02:38] <Hixie> or <script src="/j-east/js/form.js"> ?
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  39. # [02:40] <Lachy> Hixie, base.js could be Dean Edward's base.js script
  40. # [02:40] <kingryan> Hixie: I take it that your test environment doesn't give you access to the url of the markup source?
  41. # [02:40] <kingryan> Lachy: I doubt it, given the 'affiliate_base'
  42. # [02:40] <Hixie> lachy: i found a version with that path here: http://www.booking.com/static/affiliate_base/js/base.js -- my working assumption right now is that it's a booking.com-specific script
  43. # [02:41] <Lachy> ok
  44. # [02:41] <Lachy> Hixie, what's your purpose in looking at all of these scripts?
  45. # [02:41] <Hixie> kingryan: sadly, no, one of the problems with scanning billions of documents is that you have to throw out a lot of data lest you just output terabytes and terabytes of data
  46. # [02:42] <kingryan> but google has terabytes of storeage to spare, right? :)
  47. # [02:42] <Hixie> Lachy: twofold; trying to see what libraries are out there and widely used, and trying to see what things are commonly done to get an idea of where we need to work on in the future to make APIs better
  48. # [02:42] * Lachy believes Google has infinite storage :-)
  49. # [02:43] <Hixie> it's not quite that easy :-)
  50. # [02:47] <Hixie> woot, found one j-east/js/form.js: http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/js/form.js
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  133. # [10:51] <hsivonen> hmm. 66 messages in the www-style @ua thread...
  134. # [10:54] * hendry_ is now known as hendry
  135. # [10:55] <Lachy> hsivonen, was that thread just rehashing all the arguments for adding browser sniffing to css?
  136. # [10:55] <Lachy> I didn't bother reading it, since it didn't seem like anything new
  137. # [10:56] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes, but I haven't read it properly.
  138. # [10:57] <othermaciej> browser sniffing sucks, but not having it also sucks
  139. # [10:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is there something interesting going on in www-style? i'm not subscribed
  140. # [10:58] <Lachy> zcorpan, not much
  141. # [10:58] <zcorpan> Lachy: ok
  142. # [10:59] <othermaciej> dbaron's review of hyatt's CSS transforms / animations proposal was interesting
  143. # [10:59] <Lfe> othermaciej: url?
  144. # [11:00] <othermaciej> Lfe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Nov/0223.html
  145. # [11:00] <Lfe> othermaciej: thanks!
  146. # [11:00] <othermaciej> (see thread for original proposal)
  147. # [11:00] <othermaciej> I have a neat demo of that stuff which I should post
  148. # [11:01] <Lfe> That i've read, havent followed the discussion though.
  149. # [11:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the most interesting things in general are the Apple proposals othermaciej mentioned. (personally, I should follow up to some of the media query validation issues)
  150. # [11:01] <zcorpan> hsivonen: k
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  167. # [14:06] <hsivonen> oh great. the data URI ;base64 doesn't appear to allow white space between ; and b
  168. # [14:06] <hsivonen> yay for consistent parsing
  169. # [14:26] <OmegaJunior> Are we forcing compliant browsers to accept data URIs? That'd be a first for MSIE.
  170. # [14:35] <hsivonen> OmegaJunior: I expect not
  171. # [14:36] <OmegaJunior> Ah, too bad.
  172. # [14:42] <hsivonen> does anyone remember if Python urllib2 requests gzip compression?
  173. # [14:43] <OmegaJunior> Sorry no, never worked with it.
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  176. # [14:44] <hsivonen> apparently, no
  177. # [14:44] <hsivonen> :-(
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  185. # [17:18] <zcorpan> oh. firefox doesn't ignore the mime type with xml-stylesheet
  186. # [17:18] <zcorpan> (but everyone else does)
  187. # [17:19] * zcorpan changes the spec to make xml-stylesheet honor mime type
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  189. # [17:23] * zcorpan also finds that safari supports "inline" stylesheets á la <?xml-stylesheet href="#a"?><p xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" id="a">p { background:yellow }</p>
  190. # [17:24] <zcorpan> s/á/à/
  191. # [17:24] <zcorpan> wonder if i should require that to work
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  194. # [17:31] <gsnedders> zcorpan: what about xml:id?
  195. # [17:33] <zcorpan> nope
  196. # [17:33] <zcorpan> seems webkit doesn't support xml:id at all
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  217. # [19:16] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/specs/xml-stylesheet5 now features entities
  218. # [19:17] <anne-mac> I don't think we should add the stuff btw that only WebKit supports
  219. # [19:17] <anne-mac> The additional complexity has no real use case as far as I can tell
  220. # [19:18] <zcorpan> ok
  221. # [19:19] <gsnedders> I expect from the face of it that it's just due to how it is implemented and not intentional
  222. # [19:19] <anne-mac> The entity stuff doesn't handle EOF
  223. # [19:19] <zcorpan> EOF will be part of the entity table lookup
  224. # [19:20] <zcorpan> no?
  225. # [19:20] <zcorpan> gsnedders: don't think so
  226. # [19:20] <anne-mac> it's not at all clear what should happen when you hit a parse error
  227. # [19:21] <zcorpan> doesn't really matter
  228. # [19:21] <anne-mac> besides marking the pseudo-attribute as being in error
  229. # [19:21] <zcorpan> the pseudo-attribute will be dropped later on
  230. # [19:21] <zcorpan> so what the value is doesn't matter
  231. # [19:22] <zcorpan> but the number of consumed characters matters if you've consumed a " or '
  232. # [19:23] <anne-mac> you can't consume those per the current algorithm, so I guess you're correct
  233. # [19:23] <zcorpan> i guess i could deal with ', " and EOF up front to make the spec clearer?
  234. # [19:23] <zcorpan> right
  235. # [19:24] <anne-mac> "Otherwise, if the next character is a U+003B SEMICOLON, consume that too." is slightly confusing as it doesn't directly follow from the if statement before
  236. # [19:24] <zcorpan> also applies to html5, in that case :)
  237. # [19:24] * zcorpan ripped most off
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  239. # [19:25] <anne-mac> XSLT processing rules is inside <code>
  240. # [19:26] <zcorpan> oops
  241. # [19:26] <anne-mac> "(i.e., had the MIME type text/css)" seems also wrong given the statement before it
  242. # [19:27] <anne-mac> (i.e., had the MIME type text/plain instead of text/css) would be better
  243. # [19:27] <anne-mac> the DOM3Views reference should be DOM2Views
  244. # [19:28] <anne-mac> and Acknowledgements should be spelled Acknowledgments per en-US
  245. # [19:31] <zcorpan> fixed. thanks
  246. # [19:33] <zcorpan> it seems that implementations treat &#x01; as a parse error. but i'm not sure it's that important. and other values aren't interoperable, like ffff or 110000
  247. # [19:34] <zcorpan> so i just aligned with html5
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  249. # [19:35] <anne-mac> html5 will change methinks
  250. # [19:35] <zcorpan> to what?
  251. # [19:35] <anne-mac> not sure, surrogate characters will have to be dealt with somehow, at least
  252. # [19:36] <zcorpan> oh yep
  253. # [19:37] <anne-mac> "(in other words, 0-9, A-F, a-f)" is not in the same order as the stuff before it and misses "and"
  254. # [19:39] <zcorpan> fixed. also in html5
  255. # [19:40] <zcorpan> a surrogate is not a parse error in firefox
  256. # [19:41] <zcorpan> though i think i'll leave it for now
  257. # [19:41] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@233.sub-75-210-143.myvzw.com)
  258. # [19:45] <zcorpan> a fun feature (not in the spec currently) is that you can point to the file itself and let it act as a style sheet
  259. # [19:46] <zcorpan> since <!-- is a valid css token you can have your style rules in a comment in the prolog
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  261. # [19:47] <anne-mac> that's more or less disabled by doing media type checking
  262. # [19:47] <zcorpan> indeed
  263. # [19:48] <zcorpan> but it works in webkit and ie
  264. # [19:49] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/xml/xml-stylesheet/css/019.xml
  265. # [19:50] <csarven> thats cool
  266. # [19:51] <anne-mac> also works in Opera
  267. # [19:51] <zcorpan> ah yep. though not in 9.2x it seems
  268. # [19:52] * Quits: dabu (n=power1@87-194-62-72.bethere.co.uk) ("http://www.techbrainz.com")
  269. # [19:52] * anne-mac is playing with Opera 9.5 Beta on MacOS X
  270. # [19:52] <anne-mac> 9.50, even
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  274. # [20:06] <anne-mac> btw, if Content-Type is honered you don't have to default to CSS anymore in theory
  275. # [20:07] <zcorpan> it's only honored after type="" has had it's say
  276. # [20:07] <anne-mac> that's how it currently works in Firefox?
  277. # [20:07] <zcorpan> 1) type="" decides if you're gonna do css processing, xslt processing, or ignore the PI altogether
  278. # [20:08] <zcorpan> 2) the mime type decides if you're gonna apply the resource at all
  279. # [20:08] <zcorpan> yeah
  280. # [20:08] <anne-mac> in that case 2) seems like a needless step
  281. # [20:09] <zcorpan> yeah, but people don't like it when content-type is ignored
  282. # [20:11] <anne-mac> hmm
  283. # [20:34] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@121-72-22-212.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  284. # [20:38] <zcorpan> one thing i wonder. should it be possible to insert a ProcessingInstruction node to the DOM in html?
  285. # [20:39] <zcorpan> dom core says no, and firefox and webkit don't allow it
  286. # [20:39] <zcorpan> but i don't see a good reason for it
  287. # [20:40] * Quits: anne-mac (n=annevk@86.90.70.28) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  288. # [20:40] <zcorpan> or well, i know the reason; that implementations at the time didn't support it declaratively in html
  289. # [20:41] <zcorpan> but doing different things in the dom based on the htmlness flag sucks
  290. # [20:41] <zcorpan> anyway. gotta go
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  295. # [21:13] <hendry> hsivonen: don't quite get this transparent error message on http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.natalian.org%2F
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  315. # [22:15] <Hixie> wow
  316. # [22:15] <Hixie> what an interesting precedent was just set
  317. # [22:15] <Hixie> i look forward to making arbitrary decisions and invoking the secret opinions of anonymous contributors to back me up
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  320. # [22:17] <Philip`> Like the 10% of emails in your issues list that are private?
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  323. # [22:19] <Hixie> they're only private because they were sent directly to me (or to a nonpublic list like mozilla-security), if someone said something that disagreed with an e-mail in that list i couldn't let the anonymous hidden mail override the other feedback
  324. # [22:19] <Hixie> there has to be some accountability
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  328. # [22:39] <gsnedders> Hixie: what precedent? where?
  329. # [22:40] <hober> gsnedders: see danc&maciej's exchange, cc'ed to www-archive
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  344. # Session Close: Thu Nov 29 00:00:00 2007

The end :)