/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-11-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 29 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  45. # [02:53] <Hixie> ruby1: sam?
  46. # [02:54] <ruby1> yes, can't seem to get rubys at the moment
  47. # [02:54] <Hixie> hey dude
  48. # [02:55] <Hixie> i was wondering if you were aware that DanC was using your objections on <canvas> as a reason not to publish html5 as a working draft:
  49. # [02:55] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0416.html
  50. # [02:56] <Hixie> ...and whether, if that wasn't intentional, you could let the htmlwg know you didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't publish :-)
  51. # [02:56] <othermaciej> hey ruby1
  52. # [02:56] <ruby1> I'm torn. I do believe in release early and often. And I'm also keenly aware that there are scope issues that need to be resolved sooner than later.
  53. # [02:57] <ruby1> maciej: why "other"?
  54. # [02:57] <othermaciej> ruby1: because someone else has "maciej" registered on this server
  55. # [02:57] * ruby1 is now known as rubys
  56. # [02:58] <rubys> was able to "ghost" rubys. Much better.
  57. # [02:59] <rubys> I'll post a response to Dan on the subject tomorrow.
  58. # [02:59] <othermaciej> rubys: much appreciated
  59. # [03:00] <Hixie> rubys: cool, thanks
  60. # [03:00] <Hixie> rubys: i would be interested in hearing why you weren't convinced by the arguments that <canvas> is within the scope of html5 according to the charter, btw (e.g. those maciej wrote in: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tactics-gapi-canvas/results )
  61. # [03:02] <othermaciej> oh yeah, I would too, if you are indeed not convinced
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  63. # [03:06] <rubys> I'll provide a more complete answer in my post, but the short version is (1) by that reasoning SVG is in scope, (2) those that are working on the charter don't need to impact the people working on the spec (a point which I realize is partially invalidated by the fact that publishing this draft is on hold), and (3) I think namespaces are reasonable, so I guess that's in too? #3 is the most important issue. Charters aren't important when pe
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  65. # [03:08] <hober> cut off at "when pe", btw
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  67. # [03:09] <rubys> Charters aren't important when people agree, they are only important when people disagree.
  68. # [03:10] <Dashiva> Sounds like we might need the entire spec in the charter for this wg then :)
  69. # [03:11] <hober> I really doubt your #2 -- I suspect rechartering would be a giant time-sink political mess which would necessarily drag everyone into it
  70. # [03:12] <hober> Agreed on #1 -- I expect <canvas> and SVG to both be included
  71. # [03:12] <othermaciej> rubys: I do think SVG integration is in scope - I hope you do too
  72. # [03:13] <othermaciej> rubys: I also think namespaces are in scope (indeed, some mechanism to embed foreign languages is required, though the requirement is not specifically for namespaces)
  73. # [03:14] <rubys> if we can agree on those things, then they should be mentioned in the charter too. I'm not hopeful that we can agree on those things yet.
  74. # [03:15] <othermaciej> rubys: "The HTML WG is encouraged to provide a mechanism to permit independently developed vocabularies such as Internationalization Tag Set (ITS), Ruby, and RDFa to be mixed into HTML documents. Whether this occurs through the extensibility mechanism of XML, whether it is also allowed in the classic HTML serialization, and whether it uses the DTD and Schema modularization techniques, is for the HTML WG to determine."
  75. # [03:15] <othermaciej> rubys: that pretty clearly puts SVG integration and namespaces in scope
  76. # [03:15] <othermaciej> rubys: (though it does not specifically require either)
  77. # [03:16] <rubys> maciej: where are you quoting from?
  78. # [03:17] <othermaciej> rubys: the HTML Working Group charter
  79. # [03:17] <othermaciej> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html
  80. # [03:17] <rubys> oops, I was looking at the wrong page for a moment
  81. # [03:17] <othermaciej> there are many old versions on the Google
  82. # [03:18] <rubys> "whether it is also allowed in the classic HTML serialization, ..., is for the HTML WG to determine." <= that's the part that I'm not hopeful on.
  83. # [03:18] <othermaciej> anyway, I think that charter clause as written is better than an exhaustive and exclusive list of languages to integrate, or a specific requirement to use the namespace syntax
  84. # [03:19] <rubys> that's a low bar.
  85. # [03:19] <othermaciej> since it gives us leeway to study the technical issues
  86. # [03:19] <othermaciej> I think nearly all WG members are in favor of integration of at least some specific languages with some syntax
  87. # [03:19] <othermaciej> I would guess most are in favor of SVG being one of these
  88. # [03:20] <othermaciej> and I think that many would favor or at least not object to an open-ended extensibility mechanism, likely compatible with Namespaces in XML
  89. # [03:20] <othermaciej> I am personally pro all three of those things
  90. # [03:20] <rubys> An exclusive list or prematurely setting on a specific syntax are both non-starters. Agreeing to allow other vocabularies -- some that may be known today, and some that may not -- is something that I don't see agreement on.
  91. # [03:20] <othermaciej> although on the namespace syntax there are many devilish details to work out
  92. # [03:21] <othermaciej> I think there is some disagreement on whether extensibility needs to be open-ended or just support a fixed list of additional vocabularies
  93. # [03:21] <othermaciej> but I do not think the charter process is the best way to come to consensus on that point
  94. # [03:22] <othermaciej> I personally would like to take a stab at proposing an approach to namespaces that can have decent degradation and cross-XML/Classic properties when I have time
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  96. # [03:23] <rubys> hopefully more people will comment on the proposal that you come up with than have commented on mine.
  97. # [03:23] <Hixie> it's still on my list of things to look at :-)
  98. # [03:24] <othermaciej> rubys: I did comment on one of yours at some point
  99. # [03:24] <othermaciej> I think we may need a couple of different proposals on the table to compare and contrast
  100. # [03:25] <othermaciej> cause there are tradeoffs here
  101. # [03:25] <rubys> discussion is good.
  102. # [03:25] <Hixie> rubys: (sorry, was getting dinner. i didn't really follow how your comments above (1,2,3) lead to you thinking <canvas> wasn't covered by the points in the charter that maciej lists as being ways in which <canvas> is covered, though, fwiw.)
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  104. # [03:27] <othermaciej> anyway, addressing the foreign syntax issue is one of the few significant feature additions I really want to see
  105. # [03:27] <othermaciej> (for whatever my opinion's worth)
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  110. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> Philip` - any chance you might be awake right now?
  111. # [04:00] * MikeSmith wonders if there might be any canvas interoperability reports around other than Philip`'s
  112. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html
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  115. # [04:11] <Hixie> http://www.michaelsalamon.com/?p=20 is probably worth bearing in mind
  116. # [04:11] <Hixie> i'm sure i'm guilty of such problems in html5 :-/
  117. # [04:11] <Hixie> (like maybe the inline/block stuff, i dunno)
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  120. # [04:35] <othermaciej> Hixie: style attribute :-)
  121. # [04:40] <Hixie> yeah well that's an open issue
  122. # [04:40] <Hixie> i'm still considering having two levels of conformance, one for final production-level code and one for experimentation, one-offs, etc
  123. # [04:44] * othermaciej points to the picture
  124. # [04:47] <Hixie> the difference here is that there are real benefits to not using media-specific inline styling
  125. # [05:05] <othermaciej> delete the word inline and I'll agree
  126. # [05:05] <othermaciej> add an explanation of how to distinguish media-specific styling from media-independent styling and I'll agree you have a potentially worthwhile conformance requirement
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  129. # [05:07] <othermaciej> bonus points for explaining how this page would be improved by not using the style attribute: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/
  130. # [05:10] <othermaciej> (alternatives I have seen include nesting em tags (ugh) and defining a class for each size and just using a less continuous size scale (also kinda ugh)
  131. # [05:11] <othermaciej> if you add a fine color grade as well, then the class approach becomes untenable
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  134. # [05:33] <Hixie> othermaciej: why is nesting tags (not necessarily <em>) bad?
  135. # [05:33] <othermaciej> Hixie: makes the markup fugly, and more painful to generate programatically
  136. # [05:34] <othermaciej> Hixie: also takes more bandwidth
  137. # [05:34] <Hixie> but style="" is better in that respect?
  138. # [05:34] <othermaciej> especially if you go up to, like, 20 levels
  139. # [05:34] <othermaciej> sure, if I want to make a tagcloud on a log/log scale of frequency I can generate an int scaled to the right range and happily slap it into a style attribute
  140. # [05:35] <othermaciej> wrapping in 20 <em>s is more unpleasant both to read and write
  141. # [05:35] <othermaciej> also no good for a color grade
  142. # [05:35] <Hixie> hmm
  143. # [05:35] <othermaciej> unless you write totally insane style rules with one per nesting level
  144. # [05:35] <Hixie> wonder how to address this
  145. # [05:35] <Hixie> it's totally clear to me that style="" is a terrible way of doing this, but i agree that it may be the better way (for a colour grand, at least)
  146. # [05:37] <othermaciej> also if it is nonconforming at the DOM level too (not sure if the HTML5 spec defines conforming post-parse DOMs) then you can't do foo.style.left="4px" or whatever
  147. # [05:37] <othermaciej> since that creates a style attribute if you did not have one
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  151. # [05:49] <Hixie> i'm not convinced .style.foo = '' is good style either
  152. # [05:49] <Hixie> but that's another story
  153. # [05:49] <Hixie> i don't expect to win any battles on that front any time soon
  154. # [06:09] <markp> http://www.crockford.com/html/
  155. # [06:10] * markp wanders off mumbling "to the fairest" under his breath
  156. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> interesting that Doug writes "The only character encoding permitted in [in my proposed version of] HTML 5 is UTF-8." but he has <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> in the source for the doc..
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  169. # [09:11] <Philip`> MikeSmith: There wasn't much chance, and I went to bed early anyway
  170. # [09:12] <Philip`> I'm not aware of any other canvas interoperability reports
  171. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> OK
  172. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> I had mistakenly thought your report didn't cover Webkit
  173. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> but Maciej pointed out to me that it did
  174. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> after he had manually run through all the test cases
  175. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> with results that turn out to align pretty much with the results in your report
  176. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> see earlier discussion over on #webkit
  177. # [09:18] <Philip`> Okay - those results are just hidden in the column with heading "...AppleWebKit..." :-)
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  179. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> Philip` - yeah, I drank too much breakfast beer this morning before screwing my head back on
  180. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> feeling better now
  181. # [09:24] <Philip`> The test report thing at http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/reportgenentry.html ought to make it easy to collect results, except it's not really designed to be usable by anyone other than me, so I should probably fix that at some point
  182. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> Philip` - Maciej said "fwiw it's not unlikey we will implement those two features in the not-too-distant future and also go over the tests and fix our implementation or try to get the spec fixed as appropriate"
  183. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> so maybe would be worthwhile for them
  184. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> I dunno
  185. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> anyway, thanks for making that report
  186. # [09:27] <othermaciej> Philip`: how do I use it?
  187. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> it's very useful to have something referenceable to cite
  188. # [09:27] <othermaciej> oh, I see
  189. # [09:27] <othermaciej> Philip`: does more than 150 items per page make Safari sad?
  190. # [09:27] <Philip`> There's a couple of tests that I know are wrong, and haven't got around to re-uploading yet, but otherwise it ought to be about correct
  191. # [09:28] <Philip`> othermaciej: Yes - when I last looked, WebKit had a hardcoded limit of 200 frames per document
  192. # [09:29] <othermaciej> oh
  193. # [09:29] <othermaciej> we could probably relax that now
  194. # [09:30] <Philip`> (There were several other bugs with Safari (on Windows) when I first did this, hence the comment on the reportgen page about WebKit problems, but I think things worked much better when I last tried it)
  195. # [09:30] <Philip`> (It's still incredibly painful to run the tests with Opera Mini, though)
  196. # [09:35] * Philip` should try testing all the browsers on all the platforms to see if they're doing anything funny
  197. # [09:35] <othermaciej> I'd be curious if there are any Safari discrepancies between Mac and Win
  198. # [09:36] <othermaciej> I am not sure any of the Linux WebKit ports are ready for prime time though
  199. # [09:36] <othermaciej> (yet)
  200. # [09:37] <Philip`> There were significant differences in e.g. radial gradients between Safari 3 on Windows and Safari 3 on OSX 10.4, presumably because that's handled by system libraries instead of by WebKit, so maybe they're the same now on 10.5
  201. # [09:38] <othermaciej> might be so
  202. # [09:39] <Philip`> (If I remember correctly, http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/2d.gradient.radial.inside3.html was an odd reddish-green shade on Windows, but worked correctly with the same WebKit on 10.4)
  203. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> Philip` - btw, http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/83/play.xhtml doesn't seem to display as expected in current Webkit nightly
  204. # [09:52] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Is the game view pushed down below the ugly brown border, or is it something else?
  205. # [09:53] <othermaciej> it's an odd reddish green in Safari 3 on Mac
  206. # [09:53] <othermaciej> the view is pushed down
  207. # [09:53] <othermaciej> I think that bug might be filed in bugs.webkit.org but not sure
  208. # [09:54] <Philip`> http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13538
  209. # [09:54] <Philip`> othermaciej: Okay, sounds like that's the same bug I see on Windows, so at least it's consistent when using the latest versions :-)
  210. # [09:57] <Philip`> Looks quite similar to http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16045
  211. # [09:59] <othermaciej> sounds like
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  214. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> Philip` - just the gamed pushed below the border
  215. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> that's all
  216. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> otherwise works fine for me
  217. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> as far as the behavior
  218. # [10:07] <othermaciej> the game itself plays quite smoothly in Safari
  219. # [10:12] <Philip`> I think I don't even have any WebKit-specific hacks in there, whereas I do for Firefox and Opera, but maybe that's just because I couldn't test it in WebKit until after the WebKit developers had already fixed the bugs
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  228. # [11:24] <hsivonen> hendry: I no longer see anything "transparent" on http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.natalian.org%2F
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  230. # [11:41] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "Contexts in which element hr may be used:
  231. # [11:41] <zcorpan> Empty."
  232. # [11:41] <zcorpan> doesn't seem to be correct
  233. # [11:42] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  234. # [11:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: indeed not. it's the content model
  235. # [11:42] <zcorpan> yep
  236. # [11:56] <Hixie> nn
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  240. # [12:24] <hendry> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.natalian.org%2F06
  241. # [12:24] <hendry> hsivonen: i re-arranged some stuff
  242. # [12:25] <hendry> nice email on the webkit list about support for HTML5. Sweeet.
  243. # [12:26] <hsivonen> hendry: thanks.
  244. # [12:26] <hsivonen> it appears that there's a parser bug
  245. # [12:26] <zcorpan> hendry: pointer?
  246. # [12:27] <hsivonen> too bad that it will be tedious to catch when it happens midway a document of the size of the HTML5 spec
  247. # [12:27] <hsivonen> the string "Contexts in which this element may be used:" gets some garbage inserted into it
  248. # [12:29] <hendry> zcorpan: http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2007-November/002921.html
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  250. # [12:35] <hendry> http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16145
  251. # [12:35] <hendry> wtf is Mozilla doing with <video>. they seem to be dragging their heels with HTML5 stuff
  252. # [12:37] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  253. # [12:37] <hsivonen> hendry: any particular wtf in mind?
  254. # [12:39] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  255. # [12:41] <hendry> hsivonen: i am not tracking their bts, so i am not sure what's going on
  256. # [12:42] <hendry> though I recall asking if video/element would be in firefox 3 and that didn't seem to be happening
  257. # [12:42] <hendry> sorry, i should really check myself how far they are on WF2 & video/audio before I bitch :)
  258. # [12:45] <hendry> i hate bugzilla. i guess i should read some manual, how to bookmark the bugs I want to see, saved searches isn't cutting it.
  259. # [12:48] <hsivonen> hendry: from reading b.m.o, it seems to me that <video> was too late to make it to Firefox 3
  260. # [12:48] <hsivonen> But I don't work on Firefox, so don't trust me on this point.
  261. # [12:52] <hendry> any ideas about WF2? I think WF2 is low hanging fruit, isn't it? There is JS for IE support, no? http://olav.dk/wf2/demo/
  262. # [12:52] <hendry> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=345822 a bug I found about WF2 in Firefox
  263. # [12:55] <hendry> does that bug make any sense to you guys?
  264. # [12:55] <hendry> oh and there is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=344614
  265. # [12:57] <hsivonen> hendry: I'm not up to speed with the WF2 situation
  266. # [12:58] <hendry> that bug depresses me
  267. # [12:58] <hendry> or dissapoints rather :)
  268. # [13:04] <zcorpan> hendry: thanks
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  273. # [13:17] <hsivonen> hendry: fixed: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.natalian.org%2F06
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  277. # [14:31] <hendry> hsivonen: great
  278. # [14:32] <hendry> so now all i have is block/inline issues
  279. # [14:32] <hendry> i hate the distinction between block/inline. Is there _really_ i need for this distinction or am I asking a really dumb question this lunch time? :)
  280. # [14:35] <hsivonen> hendry: you need to discuss the block/inline thing with Hixie
  281. # [14:36] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  282. # [14:39] * zcorpan suspects that block/inline is going to make some authors ignore conf checking altogether
  283. # [14:40] <hsivonen> I'd like to see glazou state his block/inline opinions/requirements on public-html
  284. # [14:45] * Quits: gavins (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  285. # [14:57] * hendry agrees with zcorpan
  286. # [15:00] <Philip`> I almost never want to check for conformance, I just want to check for errors, where I define "errors" as anything I did without noticing or without knowing the consequences
  287. # [15:01] <Philip`> but the only tools available are validators / conformance checkers, so I have to put up with them not doing exactly what I want them to do
  288. # [15:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: do you have a precise spec for what you want checked? :-)
  289. # [15:03] <Philip`> hsivonen: No, since it would involve a tool that could read my mind :-)
  290. # [15:03] <hendry> hsivonen: can you validator check for payload? gzip type ??
  291. # [15:04] <hendry> sorry my keyb went mad on me. payload size I meant.
  292. # [15:04] <hendry> be good if you could link into CSS validators and things like jslint.com too
  293. # [15:05] <hsivonen> hendry: request recorded but I didn't understand the question
  294. # [15:05] <hendry> hsivonen: i think it is useful to know how big your Web page is. And to ensure that something sensible like gzip compression on the server is being utilised
  295. # [15:06] <hsivonen> hendry: ah. ok
  296. # [15:06] <hsivonen> hendry: the payload size is checked only as a countermeasure agaings DoS
  297. # [15:06] <hendry> other components of a web page, like CSS and JavaScript should also be validated and "linted" too somehow.
  298. # [15:06] <hsivonen> hendry: not in the UI ATM
  299. # [15:06] <hsivonen> hendry: request recorded
  300. # [15:07] <Philip`> hsivonen: There is e.g. http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~pjt47/ where the conformance checker complains about something that I did intentionally, which makes the tool useless since that stops it looking for anything that I might consider a real error that I would like to fix
  301. # [15:08] <hsivonen> Philip`: if we as a group decide that what you are doing is a useful backwards compat design patter, I'd expect Hixie to make it conforming
  302. # [15:09] <Philip`> The group's view of what is an error will not always be exactly the same as my view, and I want a tool that exactly reflects my view
  303. # [15:11] <Philip`> (at least when I'm being an author - I have different desires when being a user of other people's pages)
  304. # [15:12] <Lachy> Philip`, why not use divs instead of span, which would be conforming?
  305. # [15:13] <Philip`> Lachy: Because it won't get parsed correctly in Firefox
  306. # [15:13] <Lachy> oh, so you're using the span has a compatibility hack
  307. # [15:13] <Philip`> Yes
  308. # [15:14] <Philip`> so it's not something I'm going to fix in my code, because I put it there intentionally, and it's not helpful for a conformance checker to keep complaining about it
  309. # [15:16] <Philip`> I haven't got a clue how/whether it's possible to implement a better approximation to my desires than the current single 'document conformance' concept
  310. # [15:18] <Philip`> (so I can't give any constructive suggestions)
  311. # [15:20] <Philip`> (and the current approximation isn't necessarily bad, and couldn't necessarily be made better in practice, but it's just not perfect :-) )
  312. # [15:31] <hendry> hsivonen: could you use the WHATWG favicon on validator? I have so many tabs open nowadays. If things don't have a favicon I'm lost :)
  313. # [15:31] <hsivonen> hendry: using the WHATWG favicon would be a bad idea, but I think having *a* favicon would be good
  314. # [15:31] * Joins: nickshanks (n=nickshan@home.nickshanks.com)
  315. # [15:32] <hsivonen> hendry: recording request
  316. # [15:32] <nickshanks> Hixie: are you around?
  317. # [15:32] <hendry> hsivonen: http://www.favicon.cc/
  318. # [15:32] <hendry> hsivonen: why is a bad idea to suggest some sort of affiliation between whatwg and validator.nu?
  319. # [15:33] <nickshanks> hsivonen: you might know! did ian (or anyone else) ever write a good piece about the theme of "great URLs never die"
  320. # [15:33] <nickshanks> i want to educate some people
  321. # [15:33] <hsivonen> nickshanks: TimBL wrote Cool URIs Don't Change
  322. # [15:33] <nickshanks> yeah, that'll do
  323. # [15:33] <hsivonen> hendry: because the WHATWG doesn't endorse a single validator
  324. # [15:44] <Philip`> The WHATWG endorses validators in general, and there's only one in practice, so that sort of counts as an implicit endorsement :-)
  325. # [16:01] <dglazkov> hello kind HTML5 folk
  326. # [16:02] <zcorpan> hi
  327. # [16:02] <dglazkov> a while back, I put together the HTML5 SQL player and posted about it on WHATWG list
  328. # [16:02] <nickshanks> what, HTML5 folk?! where?
  329. # [16:03] <dglazkov> I haven't heard any response, so I am wondering if it would be a good thing for me to continue improving upon it
  330. # [16:04] <dglazkov> my POV is that it's always better to develop/enhance the spec based on an implementation, rather than thin air
  331. # [16:05] <dglazkov> but I could be wrong
  332. # [16:06] * zcorpan shares that POV
  333. # [16:07] <zcorpan> though, the sql part of html5 is not my expertise
  334. # [16:08] * Joins: csarven- (n=nevrasc@81-5-133-33.static.nfwebsolutions.com)
  335. # [16:08] <nickshanks> HTML5 is getting bloated IMO
  336. # [16:09] <zcorpan> yeah
  337. # [16:09] <nickshanks> SQL should be in a seperate, optional module
  338. # [16:09] <zcorpan> moving stuff doesn't reduce bloat, though :)
  339. # [16:10] <zcorpan> if the web starts using sql, implementors will have to support sql
  340. # [16:10] <zcorpan> no matter where or even whether it is defined
  341. # [16:10] <nickshanks> hmm, maybe I should write a web browser that only renders HTML 1.0
  342. # [16:10] <zcorpan> how about xhtml2? :)
  343. # [16:11] <nickshanks> http://web.nickshanks.com/books/gettinggold.xhtml2
  344. # [16:11] <nickshanks> i'm waiting for that URL to begin working one day
  345. # [16:13] <Philip`> "Error 404"?
  346. # [16:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what's the current best list of what ARIA states apply to which roles
  347. # [16:14] <nickshanks> oops, it's hyphenated
  348. # [16:14] <hsivonen> ?
  349. # [16:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: not sure
  350. # [16:17] <zcorpan> perhaps http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_to_API_mapping#Role_mappings.2C_with_properties_that_depend_on_the_role
  351. # [16:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: hmm. that's not normative and it has restrictions that http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-aria-role-20071019/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-state/ do not
  352. # [16:21] <hsivonen> have
  353. # [16:22] <nickshanks> Philip`: are you a student?
  354. # [16:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does "Inherits into Roles" mean that the state or property can also occur directly on those roles?
  355. # [16:23] <Philip`> nickshanks: Yes
  356. # [16:23] <nickshanks> studying what?
  357. # [16:24] <Philip`> Currently doing CS PhD
  358. # [16:25] <zcorpan> hsivonen: don't know, actually
  359. # [16:25] <nickshanks> does that entitle you to avoid council tax?
  360. # [16:26] <zcorpan> i need to get an understanding of how aria really works, and spec it down
  361. # [16:27] <Philip`> nickshanks: I assume so, since I'm not paying any tax at all
  362. # [16:27] <nickshanks> i have a CS PhD student who's just moved into my house and i'm wondering if that means i lose my single person discount
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  370. # [16:46] <Philip`> nickshanks: Hmm, I've got no idea - I'm just living in a college-owned house with other students, and all the details are taken care of by other people :-)
  371. # [16:46] <nickshanks> fair enough
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  386. # [18:34] <Philip`> MikeSmith: About your tactics-gapi-canvas comment: I wouldn't think that OpenGL experts would have much expertise relevant to the current canvas API, since it's quite a different area
  387. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> Philip` - that was an indirect comment I was attempting to pass on from other team members
  388. # [18:35] <Philip`> (though they would know relevant things for a future 3D canvas API)
  389. # [18:35] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Okay
  390. # [18:35] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com)
  391. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> I hope to get more people on the team to read/review the actual canvas API spec
  392. # [18:47] <Philip`> It's harder to review now that it's about maintenance/evolution of the specification of an old technology, and not about the design of something new, so there's all the 'don't break the web' problems that make it hard to change much
  393. # [18:49] <zcorpan> 'text-indent' doesn't inherit to tables in firefox and ie, apparently
  394. # [18:49] <Philip`> but it'd be good to have people look at it if they're aware of what modifications are acceptable
  395. # [18:55] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  397. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> Philip` - yeah. Sorta perhaps indicates the spec and implementations around canvas are of a level of maturity that's a bit beyond what is normally required for publishing as part of a FPWD
  398. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> some might say
  399. # [19:00] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@81.sub-75-210-52.myvzw.com) (Client Quit)
  400. # [19:11] * Philip` finds another case where Firefox 2 writes random memory contents to a <canvas>, but, given the consequences of the most recent attempt at patching the same kind of bug in FF2, expects it would be safer to not tell anyone about it
  401. # [19:14] <gavin> bah!
  402. # [19:14] <gavin> you should certainly file a bug about it
  403. # [19:14] <gavin> the most recent troubles with the patch for that bug were caused by process issues, not code issues
  404. # [19:16] * Joins: dabu (n=power1@87-194-62-72.bethere.co.uk)
  405. # [19:20] <Hixie> Lachy_: anything useful come out of the telecon?
  406. # [19:21] <gavin> Philip`: when you do file it, CC me?
  407. # [19:25] * Joins: KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-e461b2922ba5ee11)
  408. # [19:25] <Philip`> gavin: Okay, will do - just trying to implement an exploit for the bug, to make it more fun
  409. # [19:26] <gavin> perhaps you should mark the bug security-sensitive
  410. # [19:26] <gavin> I forget - did you do that for the last one?
  411. # [19:28] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  412. # [19:30] <Philip`> "_closedTabs:[{state:{entries:[{url:"http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/", children:[], title:"Firefox web browser | Faster, more secure, & customizable", cacheKey:0, ID:1, scroll:"0,0"}], index:1, zoom:1, disallow:"", xultab:"", extData:null, text:""}, ..."
  413. # [19:30] <Philip`> I'm guessing web pages shouldn't have access to strings like that
  414. # [19:32] <Philip`> Bah, I thought I found another problem but actually it was just dust on my monitor that looked like random pixels
  415. # [19:34] <gavin> heh
  416. # [19:34] <gavin> Philip`: that's right, web pages don't
  417. # [19:34] <gavin> we just use a JSON-like format for serializing to disk
  418. # [19:35] <Philip`> gavin: s/don't/shouldn't/ :-p
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  420. # [19:35] <gavin> I'm telling you that they don't
  421. # [19:35] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-195-74.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  422. # [19:36] <gavin> if you have evidence otherwise, please to be filing a bug? :)
  423. # [19:37] * Joins: aroben (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  424. # [19:43] <Philip`> gavin: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=406036
  425. # [19:43] <Philip`> I would CC you if I knew what your email address was :-)
  426. # [19:43] <gavin> that's OK, I can CC myself
  427. # [19:44] <gavin> (gavin.sharp matches me)
  428. # [19:45] <Philip`> gavin: I didn't mark the last bug security-sensitive, because I didn't really think about the security issue at first, and then I did realise but couldn't sensitise it myself so someone else did
  429. # [19:45] <Lfe> ok
  430. # [19:45] <gavin> Philip`: ok
  431. # [19:45] <Lfe> oops :o
  432. # [19:46] * gavin is put off by a branch build's non-native looking Mac widgets
  433. # [19:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i've implemented collapsing of messages for validator.nu with javascript
  434. # [19:46] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  435. # [19:47] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://simon.html5.org/temp/validator-nu-collapse.html
  436. # [19:48] <zcorpan> hmm, but the button's label is wrong :)
  437. # [19:49] <Lachy> zcorpan, clicking collapse multiple times has a weird bug
  438. # [19:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: cool. Thanks.
  439. # [19:50] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-12-84.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  440. # [19:50] <zcorpan> Lachy: now why would you do that ;)
  441. # [19:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I will look into integrating this
  442. # [19:51] <Lachy> I thought it would toggle it
  443. # [19:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is this under the MIT license?
  444. # [19:51] <zcorpan> hsivonen: if it helps :)
  445. # [19:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it would
  446. # [19:51] <zcorpan> then it is
  447. # [19:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan: excellent. Thank you
  448. # [19:52] <Lachy> hsivonen, I spoke to DanC earlier about the licence for the authoring guide
  449. # [19:52] <zcorpan> do i need to include a boilerplate?
  450. # [19:52] <hendry> is this old news? http://www.crockford.com/html/
  451. # [19:52] <Lachy> he assigned anne to look into the issue
  452. # [19:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan: preferably, yes, so I don't misrepresent anything by adding it myself
  453. # [19:53] * gavin apologizes for spamming Philip` with bugmail
  454. # [19:53] <zcorpan> pointer to such a boilerplate, please?
  455. # [19:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php
  456. # [19:53] <Lachy> hsivonen, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2007OctDec/0007
  457. # [19:54] <hsivonen> Lachy: excellent
  458. # [19:54] <Philip`> gavin: No problem, I tend to ignore that email address anyway :-)
  459. # [19:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: with JS-compatible comments: http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/apidocs/src-html/nu/validator/htmlparser/common/DoctypeExpectation.html
  460. # [19:56] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok, added
  461. # [19:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thank you
  462. # [19:58] <nickshanks> sometimes i hate google
  463. # [19:58] <nickshanks> it always ranks my website too high
  464. # [19:58] <Hixie> i know the problem
  465. # [19:58] <nickshanks> http://images.google.com/images?q=keyboard+layout
  466. # [19:59] <zcorpan> Lachy: bug fixed
  467. # [19:59] <hsivonen> nickshanks: yeah, that has interesting effects. like people asking me about Japanese fonts
  468. # [19:59] <gsnedders> peh. take a look at http://google.com/search?q=homophobic+insults
  469. # [19:59] <gsnedders> I'm the second result (or I was a few days ago)!
  470. # [19:59] <nickshanks> heh
  471. # [20:00] <Philip`> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ was high on the image search for "periodic table" a while ago
  472. # [20:00] <nickshanks> thing is this costs me money because i've gone way over my bandwidth limits this month
  473. # [20:00] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  474. # [20:00] <zcorpan> nickshanks: Disallow /
  475. # [20:00] <zcorpan> or is it Disallow: /
  476. # [20:01] <nickshanks> there's apachectl stop
  477. # [20:01] <nickshanks> which saves even more
  478. # [20:01] <nickshanks> most hits i get are Windows people looking for free fonts
  479. # [20:02] <nickshanks> all my free fonts are AAT-based .dfont files
  480. # [20:03] <gsnedders> most common search referrer to my site: sports day speech
  481. # [20:03] <zcorpan> ah, i still have a bug
  482. # [20:03] <gsnedders> second is gsnedders
  483. # [20:03] <gsnedders> third is: causes of love
  484. # [20:03] <gsnedders> how lovely
  485. # [20:03] <gsnedders> :\
  486. # [20:03] <nickshanks> where is 'causes of divorce' ?
  487. # [20:04] <gsnedders> no, I only tag posts with lust or love, not divorce.
  488. # [20:04] <gsnedders> I haven't done the marrying part yet (and legally can't)
  489. # [20:04] <nickshanks> causes of lust?
  490. # [20:04] <zcorpan> there
  491. # [20:04] <nickshanks> how old are you?
  492. # [20:04] <gsnedders> nickshanks: yeah, I have that (causes of lust)
  493. # [20:04] <gsnedders> nickshanks: 15
  494. # [20:04] <nickshanks> you can get married
  495. # [20:04] <gsnedders> "causes of emo" too
  496. # [20:04] <nickshanks> france 15
  497. # [20:05] <nickshanks> scotland 14
  498. # [20:05] <gsnedders> nickshanks: Scotland is 16
  499. # [20:05] <nickshanks> japan: any age
  500. # [20:05] <nickshanks> 14 with consent
  501. # [20:05] <nickshanks> of parents
  502. # [20:05] <gsnedders> nickshanks: no, there is no difference between consent of parents or not
  503. # [20:05] <gsnedders> nickshanks: such a law only exists in England and Wales
  504. # [20:06] <nickshanks> oh. hmm.
  505. # [20:06] <hober> (and NI)
  506. # [20:06] <zcorpan> hmm, doesn't hasAttribute() work in ie?
  507. # [20:07] <nickshanks> gsnedders: http://web.nickshanks.com/analog/
  508. # [20:07] <gsnedders> more odd searches: how long does it take to bleed to death from slitting wrists, get me an essay about anything, emo poems about falling in love but you can't have them
  509. # [20:07] <nickshanks> scroll down to search terms
  510. # [20:07] * zcorpan changes to getAttribute
  511. # [20:08] <nickshanks> (i just changed webservers so it's a couple of weeks out of date and the images don't work - need to set analog back up again on the new server)
  512. # [20:08] <gsnedders> nickshanks: heh. I only have stuff since I changed host. Too much rubbish in older ones (from spam bots and the like)
  513. # [20:09] <Dashiva> zcorpan: You probably want to check .attributes[name].defined or what it is
  514. # [20:09] <nickshanks> if you look at index-full.html that goes back to may 2005
  515. # [20:10] <Hixie> aha, this is why i'm getting flaky mail service right now http://www.dreamhoststatus.com/2007/11/17/gmail-forwarding-slowness
  516. # [20:10] <zcorpan> Dashiva: oh yep. though getAttribute worked as well
  517. # [20:10] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it doesn't work in ie6 because it doesn't support attribute selectors
  518. # [20:11] * zcorpan has to go now
  519. # [20:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok
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  522. # [20:26] * Joins: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  523. # [20:30] <Lachy__> Apparently, I'm "not so democratic or balanced" http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0104.html
  524. # [20:37] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2585.bb.online.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  526. # [20:43] <Dashiva> Lachy__: You aren't me, so you're obviously not balanced
  527. # [20:44] <hsivonen> Lachy__: you can become an unbalanced dictator
  528. # [20:45] <Lachy__> I don't mind being called unbalanced, but I fail to see how any of my responses in regards to the web dev guide have been undemocratice
  529. # [20:46] <Lachy__> s/undemocratice/undemocratic/
  530. # [20:46] <Dashiva> "The HTMLWG is becoming less and less democratic everyday. It has become a dictatorship driven by three companies: Google, Apple and Opera."
  531. # [20:46] <Dashiva> If that was true, we'd be publishing HTML 5 drafts by now >:O
  532. # [20:47] * Lachy__ is now known as Lachy
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  537. # [20:47] <Hixie> i don't understand what Roy and Julian want
  538. # [20:48] <Hixie> what would it mean to describe the language without UA requirements?
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  543. # [20:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: see the ODF spec :-)
  544. # [20:48] <Hixie> but that's a _bad_ thing
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  546. # [20:50] <Hixie> is it just the scripting parts he wants taken out?
  547. # [20:50] <Lachy> I don't see how it is possible to address Roy's concern, since the group already resolved to call the spec HTML5 and the group knew exactly what the proposal contained when the decision was made
  548. # [20:50] <Lachy> he wan't anything that isn't related to the markup taken out, despite the fact that it's not actually possible to do with some things
  549. # [20:51] <Hixie> what isn't related to the markup?
  550. # [20:51] <Hixie> as far as i can see, everything in the spec is related to the markup
  551. # [20:52] <Lachy> no, I mean, just the syntax and element semantics
  552. # [20:52] <tndH> i read it as "pretend script doesn't exist and all documents are valid"
  553. # [20:53] <Hixie> "just the syntax and element semantics" would be mostly everything but scripting parts, no?
  554. # [20:53] <Hixie> does he want the parser out too?
  555. # [20:53] <Lachy> I presume he would be aware that we can't define how to parse HTML without at least considering document.write and innerHTML
  556. # [20:53] <Hixie> i can't tell
  557. # [20:53] <Hixie> i guess i'll wait for my mail to catch up and then ask him
  558. # [20:53] <Lachy> There are certainly some people who don't think the parser should be in there
  559. # [20:54] <Hixie> it's going to be hard to address everyone's desires in that case
  560. # [20:54] * Hixie wonders how to address DanC's latest claim that we don't have critical mass
  561. # [20:58] <Dashiva> It didn't take long before the talk about "w3c members" as opposed to "html wg members" came up...
  562. # [20:59] <Hixie> 8 months, that's not that short
  563. # [21:00] <Dashiva> Well, I was counting since the vote :)
  564. # [21:00] <Hixie> i'm amused because the companies he mentioned haven't, by and large, voted on any of the votes
  565. # [21:00] <Hixie> it's not clear how to address his concern
  566. # [21:00] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
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  568. # [21:03] <hsivonen> "W3C Reopens Emotion Incubator Group"
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  573. # [21:33] <othermaciej> our charter specifically requires us to specify the DOM
  574. # [21:33] <othermaciej> Roy's request that we violate the charter is not really in order
  575. # [21:33] <Hixie> hah
  576. # [21:33] <Hixie> feel free to call him on it
  577. # [21:34] <othermaciej> I think you addressed his comments sufficiently
  578. # [21:34] <Hixie> well i still haven't received that e-mail
  579. # [21:34] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  580. # [21:34] <Philip`> The charter says it's "in scope" - does that actually mean it's required?
  581. # [21:36] <othermaciej> well, it's hard to argue that we "shouldn't" do a category of things that the charter explicitly declares in scope
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  599. # [22:49] <Hixie> hey, the forms tf missed their deadline
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The end :)