/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-12-06 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 06 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:05] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  4. # [00:14] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  5. # [00:20] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com)
  6. # [00:26] * Joins: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25)
  7. # [00:46] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  8. # [00:48] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com)
  9. # [01:02] * Quits: phsiao (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-3fadda03a690d869)
  10. # [01:07] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  11. # [01:12] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  12. # [01:13] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.203.15.207)
  13. # [01:24] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com)
  14. # [01:29] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.104.176)
  15. # [01:32] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.203.15.207)
  16. # [01:33] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.98.46) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  17. # [01:45] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  18. # [01:51] * Quits: tndH_ (n=Rob@83.100.250.48) ("ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  19. # [01:57] <Hixie> heh, i just did a study to look at the average page rank of pages with different kinds of scripts
  20. # [01:57] <Hixie> and pages with rollovers on average have low pagerank :-P
  21. # [02:25] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  22. # [02:29] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  23. # [02:50] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  24. # [03:15] * Parts: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  25. # [03:15] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  26. # [03:16] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) (Client Quit)
  27. # [03:26] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  28. # [03:48] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@91.84.28.65)
  29. # [03:52] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-173-6.cable.telstraclear.net)
  30. # [03:53] * Joins: webben__ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  31. # [04:00] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  32. # [04:04] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Success)
  33. # [04:09] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@91.84.28.65) (Connection timed out)
  34. # [04:23] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.207)
  35. # [04:44] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  36. # [04:53] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  37. # [05:40] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) (Remote closed the connection)
  38. # [05:41] * Joins: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25)
  39. # [06:54] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-185-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  40. # [07:04] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@203-217-91-18.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  41. # [07:25] <Hixie> maybe instead of "high quality" and "low quality" as conformance levels, we should have "high priority" and "low piority" errors
  42. # [07:25] <Hixie> where high priority = things that really cause a lot of problems and should definitely be fixed
  43. # [07:26] <Hixie> and low priority = things that cause problems, but not disasters
  44. # [07:26] <Hixie> so for example a missing </style> is a high priority error since it hides the whole rest of the page
  45. # [07:26] <othermaciej> wouldn't most content model violation bugs then be low priority?
  46. # [07:27] <Hixie> but a style="" attribute in a production page is a low priority error since it just means that you can't easily add an alternative style sheet
  47. # [07:28] <othermaciej> now there's a marginally good argument against using style="" (though it applies equally to <style scoped> and even <style>, no?)
  48. # [07:28] <Hixie> <style> can have a title=""
  49. # [07:28] <Hixie> (without one it's a "persistent style sheet")
  50. # [07:29] <Hixie> (but it's easy to migrate from one persistent style sheet to a set of alternatives just by adding titles)
  51. # [07:30] <othermaciej> that seems about as good a reason for warning as it would be to warn on onclick because you can't have more than one handler set that way, and additional ones get slightly different behavior (scope chain, etc)
  52. # [07:31] <othermaciej> i.e. not completely bogus, but if it were a compiler I'd probably turn that warning off
  53. # [07:33] <othermaciej> and if we're talking mandatory vs. optional diagnostics, then it might be better to leave it up to individual validators to decide what warnings they emit in addition to errors, and compete on usefulness and quality of those
  54. # [07:33] <othermaciej> much as C compilers all give basically the same syntax errors, but compete on usefulness of optional warnings
  55. # [07:34] <Hixie> yeah
  56. # [07:34] <Hixie> maybe
  57. # [07:34] <othermaciej> (I suspect gcc has far more useful warnings than it would if they were all defined by the C standard)
  58. # [07:34] <othermaciej> it wouldn't hurt for the spec to editorially suggest some things as possible optional diagnostics
  59. # [07:35] <othermaciej> I should get going
  60. # [07:35] <Hixie> ttyl
  61. # [07:35] <othermaciej> (btw some people might find a warning on use of inline event handler attributes actually useful)
  62. # [07:35] <othermaciej> (since it's not uncommon to ban them as a house style for a particular site)
  63. # [07:40] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  64. # [07:41] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  65. # [07:44] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  66. # [07:52] <Hixie> i have no idea if sql does what i want it to do here
  67. # [07:52] <Hixie> but i guess i'll find out
  68. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> Hixie - sql for the status-annotations server-side stuff?
  69. # [07:55] <Hixie> yeah
  70. # [07:55] <Hixie> i'm doing:
  71. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> you got the database schema put together now?
  72. # [07:55] <Hixie> SELECT `annotation`, `section` FROM `section` GROUP BY `annotation` ORDER BY `change` DESC
  73. # [07:56] <Hixie> with a table that has annotation, section, change fields
  74. # [07:56] <Hixie> and i'm hoping that it'll give me the most recent section for each annotation
  75. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> seems like it will if the data is actually what it should be
  76. # [07:57] <Hixie> how about:
  77. # [07:57] <Hixie> SELECT `annotation`, `key`, `value`, CONCAT(`annotation`, ':', `key`) AS `group` FROM `implementations` GROUP BY `group` ORDER BY `change` DESC
  78. # [07:57] <Hixie> ...giving me the most recent value for each annotation-key pair
  79. # [07:58] <MikeSmith> what is in "key"? just a generated id?
  80. # [07:58] <Hixie> key is a string
  81. # [07:58] <Hixie> one of 'firefox', 'ie', 'safari', 'opera
  82. # [07:58] <Hixie> '
  83. # [07:58] <MikeSmith> oh
  84. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> that don't look quite right to me
  85. # [08:00] <Hixie> oh?
  86. # [08:01] * MikeSmith takes a look at mysql reference
  87. # [08:02] <Hixie> it's syntactically correct
  88. # [08:02] <Hixie> i just don't know if it's correct :-)
  89. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> ah, ok
  90. # [08:03] <Dashiva> hm
  91. # [08:05] <Dashiva> I suspect it would work because of how MySQL does things, even though it's not technically a reliable feature
  92. # [08:05] <Hixie> how would you do it reliably in sql?
  93. # [08:06] <Dashiva> I can only think of ugly ways at the moment (subqueries and whatnot)
  94. # [08:07] <Hixie> so yeah, like i said, i dunno if sql can do what i want of it :-)
  95. # [08:08] <Dashiva> Let's see how un-ugly I can imagine it
  96. # [08:12] <MikeSmith> Hixie - I think the high-priority vs low-priority distinction could be useful
  97. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> would be really useful to try to get some more implementors to work on conformance checkers, and for people to use those
  98. # [08:14] <Hixie> webkit is starting to have more and more of one
  99. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> in order to get some real feedback
  100. # [08:14] <Hixie> the iphone can even tell you about html parse errors
  101. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> nice
  102. # [08:14] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.207) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  103. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> so I think one real risk is that conformance-checker maintainers would start adding "ignore someClassofErrors" options
  104. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> due to pressure from users
  105. # [08:16] <Hixie> how much i care depends on what the error is
  106. # [08:16] <Hixie> or rather, what i think about it
  107. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> yeah, of course
  108. # [08:17] <Hixie> if it's because the spec has some requirement that really doesn't help anyone, then we should change the spec
  109. # [08:17] <Hixie> if the error is there because they're screwing users, then...
  110. # [08:20] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@83.100.250.48)
  111. # [08:20] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  112. # [08:21] <Dashiva> Hixie: If your MySQL is new enough to support subqueries, this should work
  113. # [08:21] <Dashiva> SELECT annotation, section FROM section WHERE (annotation, change) IN ( SELECT annotation, max(change) FROM section GROUP BY annotation );
  114. # [08:21] <Dashiva> I hope there's an index of annotation :)
  115. # [08:22] <Hixie> yeah
  116. # [08:22] <Hixie> there are indexes all over the place
  117. # [08:23] <Hixie> what on earth does that do? :-)
  118. # [08:23] <Hixie> fwiw i'm using mysql with VERSION() == 4.1.16-standard-log
  119. # [08:24] <doublec> Quick <video> question. If there are no <source> elements that are picked, and there is therefore no media resource, can a non-javascript enabled browser do anything meaningful to let the user know?
  120. # [08:24] <Dashiva> It gets the newest date for each annotation, and then selects the rows containing those annotation,date pairs
  121. # [08:25] <Hixie> wow
  122. # [08:25] <Hixie> that's some fancy syntax right there
  123. # [08:25] <Hixie> looks like this version of mysql doesn't do that
  124. # [08:25] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  125. # [08:25] <Dashiva> Yeah, MySQL only started doing subqueries recently. Might be 5.0
  126. # [08:26] <Dashiva> Could no doubt emulate it with a join on itself and so fancy tricks, though
  127. # [08:26] <Hixie> you know, maybe i should have implemented the code that actually _adds_ annotations first
  128. # [08:26] <Hixie> leaving it til last is somewhat preventing me from actually _testing_ anything
  129. # [08:27] <Hixie> well we'll see if i just get what i need by luck first
  130. # [08:32] * Hixie realises he's actually completely left off the ability to add sections, both in his UI, in his client-side logic layer, in his client-side network layer, in his server-side network layer, and in his server-side database logic
  131. # [08:32] <Hixie> "oops"
  132. # [08:35] * maikmerten gives moral support to doublec's question
  133. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> Hixie - you get points for consistency at least
  134. # [08:36] <maikmerten> I was under the impression that if <video> fails it should display the fallback content to be fed into non-<video> browsers
  135. # [08:37] <doublec> does having no media resource count as fail though?
  136. # [08:37] <doublec> as they might add <source> dynamically later
  137. # [08:37] <Hixie> with no <source>, or no suitable media, you display a black rectangle
  138. # [08:37] <Hixie> according to the spec
  139. # [08:38] <Hixie> in a <video>-supporting UA, you never see the fallback
  140. # [08:38] <Hixie> again, according to the spec
  141. # [08:38] <doublec> good point
  142. # [08:38] <Hixie> (sorry, didn't see your question earlier)
  143. # [08:38] <Hixie> to answer your question, the UA is always allowed to be helpful
  144. # [08:39] <Hixie> it could, e.g., overlay a message on the <video>'s black screen saying "No media available..."
  145. # [08:39] <Hixie> there's no restriction on what the UI is or can do really
  146. # [08:39] <Hixie> and when JS is disabled, controls="" is implied, so the UI should be in full swing
  147. # [08:40] <Hixie> doublec: hth
  148. # [08:40] <Hixie> gonna go home now, will probably be online again in a bit
  149. # [08:40] <doublec> cool, thanks
  150. # [08:41] <doublec> where this came up is for user agents that don't support Ogg. Can a page detect that no meda resource was available and report a message themselves.
  151. # [08:48] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  152. # [08:56] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@217.207.76.231) ("Leaving")
  153. # [09:00] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@217.207.76.231)
  154. # [09:02] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-11.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  155. # [09:13] * Joins: OmegaJunior (n=ZJr@a82-95-48-162.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  156. # [09:19] <Hixie> doublec: yeah, there's an event
  157. # [09:19] <Hixie> iirc
  158. # [09:25] <doublec> ahh, the abort event, thanks
  159. # [09:27] * Quits: webben__ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  160. # [09:33] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@217.207.76.231) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  161. # [09:58] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-173-6.cable.telstraclear.net)
  162. # [09:59] * Joins: sYn-Zilch (i=fuz007@c-68-54-228-249.hsd1.tn.comcast.net)
  163. # [10:00] * Quits: Thezilch (i=fuz007@c-68-54-228-249.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  164. # [10:01] * Joins: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-82a28f2ce8c7ca76)
  165. # [10:02] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@83.100.250.48) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  166. # [10:16] * Joins: webben (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-4f9dc751efb49495)
  167. # [10:29] * Quits: OmegaJunior (n=ZJr@a82-95-48-162.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  168. # [10:46] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  169. # [11:44] * Quits: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-82a28f2ce8c7ca76) ("Leaving")
  170. # [11:48] * Joins: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-cbaddc1faebb121e)
  171. # [11:51] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@nox.vm.bytemark.co.uk) ("brb")
  172. # [11:51] * Joins: hendry (n=hendry@nox.vm.bytemark.co.uk)
  173. # [12:03] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  174. # [12:04] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-11.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  175. # [13:02] * Quits: webben (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-4f9dc751efb49495)
  176. # [13:15] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/bgdfl31rqfj95uhpkkjkmg0kc1bbg6612v@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de <- hahahaha, awesome, microsoft caught at it again
  177. # [13:15] <Hixie> hopefully that puts the final nail into the EOT coffin
  178. # [13:26] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  179. # [13:28] <om_sleep> harsh
  180. # [13:29] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  181. # [13:29] <othermaciej> now wait a second
  182. # [13:29] <othermaciej> if that's true, I don't understand why Microsoft was pushing EOT so hard
  183. # [13:29] <othermaciej> I assumed it was because they're a font vendor
  184. # [13:32] <hsivonen> othermaciej: perhaps the MS Core Fonts initiative has lead to some internal discussions
  185. # [13:33] <hsivonen> othermaciej: Paul Nelson's www-style future tense statement of what MS won't do is something they have done in the past
  186. # [13:33] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I don't understand how that would explain the seeming inconsistency in the message Hixie linked
  187. # [13:33] <othermaciej> (inconsistency demonstrated by the message, that is)
  188. # [13:33] <hsivonen> it doesn't
  189. # [13:34] <hsivonen> too bad that message is Member-only
  190. # [13:34] <othermaciej> you have Member access, right?
  191. # [13:34] <hsivonen> otherwise, it would be a good "recent successes" addition to the Björn Höhrmann Project :-)
  192. # [13:34] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I do
  193. # [13:35] <othermaciej> I'd guess Bjoern wouldn't mind posting it somewhere public too
  194. # [13:36] <othermaciej> hsivonen: what www-style statement are you referring to by the way?
  195. # [13:37] * Joins: webben (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-cacc0b81eef64891)
  196. # [13:37] <hsivonen> othermaciej: http://www.w3.org/mid/49C257E2C13F584790B2E302E021B6F914F6B1D2@winse-msg-01.segroup.winse.corp.microsoft.com
  197. # [13:38] <hsivonen> later amended, though: http://www.w3.org/mid/49C257E2C13F584790B2E302E021B6F914F6B1DD@winse-msg-01.segroup.winse.corp.microsoft.com
  198. # [13:40] <hsivonen> the network effects, the development cost and the ways of making money on fonts do make fonts a hard problem for the Web and for any non-final form documents
  199. # [13:44] <hsivonen> I don't really know how to make fonts so that font designers get paid but users aren't bound by onerous licensing terms except developing free fonts under a patronage model
  200. # [13:44] <hsivonen> But that yields a practically necessary number of fonts
  201. # [13:45] <hsivonen> and the embedding issue is pretty much about high-quality fonts that go beyond what would be merely necessary for textual communication to work
  202. # [13:48] <othermaciej> whatever the complexities of the font business model, it seems clear that using a Microsoft-specific format with trivial DRM doesn't solve any of the problems and creates extra annoyance for web developers and browser developers, and even Microsoft seems to acknowledge that for technologies that they'd like to see succeed
  203. # [13:48] <hsivonen> I agree
  204. # [14:00] <hsivonen> clearly, making the font restriction too tight will drive a foundry out of business
  205. # [14:01] <hsivonen> a few years ago, I found a small private foundry that had great designs but wouldn't license them for embedding in PDF
  206. # [14:01] <hsivonen> it seems to me the foundry is out of business
  207. # [14:01] <hsivonen> the irony was, of course, that in order to communicate samples of their fonts, they had to embed them in PDFs
  208. # [14:02] <othermaciej> heh
  209. # [14:02] <othermaciej> fortunately they can't violate their own license, legally
  210. # [14:02] <othermaciej> but still amusing
  211. # [14:07] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  212. # [14:22] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  213. # [14:36] * Quits: webben (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-cacc0b81eef64891)
  214. # [14:50] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@83.100.250.48)
  215. # [14:50] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  216. # [14:52] * Joins: webben (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-9284efefe42bc583)
  217. # [14:53] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  218. # [15:19] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  219. # [15:20] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  220. # [15:28] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
  221. # [15:32] * Quits: webben (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-9284efefe42bc583)
  222. # [15:35] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@213.236.208.247)
  223. # [15:43] * Joins: webben (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-0da72b13d071cd9b)
  224. # [15:45] * Joins: phsiao (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-de4b5bb55a851951)
  225. # [15:55] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("Pike!")
  226. # [16:54] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) ("Verlassend")
  227. # [17:11] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  228. # [17:16] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  229. # [17:24] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@213.236.208.247) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  230. # [17:30] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  231. # [17:34] * Joins: phsiao_ (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-64885520d9d49bf7)
  232. # [17:34] * Quits: phsiao (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-de4b5bb55a851951) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  233. # [17:49] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@140.80-202-68.nextgentel.com)
  234. # [18:04] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-087-110.nc.res.rr.com)
  235. # [18:04] <rubys> is input/@size legal in html5?
  236. # [18:05] <gsnedders> rubys: no
  237. # [18:06] <rubys> what's the alternative?
  238. # [18:07] <gsnedders> CSS is just meant to be used instead
  239. # [18:11] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  240. # [18:20] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@83.100.250.48) ("ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  241. # [18:38] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@83.100.250.48)
  242. # [18:39] * Joins: webben_ (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-42ae4e717194c2fd)
  243. # [18:49] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lafcc.l.pppool.de)
  244. # [18:52] <csarven> gsnedders how do non-presentational UAs allocate space for the input size?
  245. # [18:52] * Quits: webben (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-0da72b13d071cd9b) (Connection timed out)
  246. # [18:53] <gsnedders> csarven: non-presentational or non-CSS-supporting? non-presentational ones don't present anything :P
  247. # [18:54] <csarven> i was referring non-CSS-supporting UAs. e.g. Lynx
  248. # [18:55] <gsnedders> in some they always use the same width, others use @size
  249. # [18:56] <csarven> and if CSS is turned off CSS-supporting UAs? is it expected to default to browser stylesheet?
  250. # [18:57] <gsnedders> AFAIK they all use @size falling back to a default
  251. # [18:57] <Dashiva> I don't recall anyone switching width based on the font, though
  252. # [19:00] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-185-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  253. # [19:02] * Joins: phsiao (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-171cb71d3b628c82)
  254. # [19:02] * Quits: phsiao_ (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-64885520d9d49bf7) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  255. # [19:19] * mpt has a vague memory of the meaning of size= being dependent on the width of an "e" in the relevant font
  256. # [19:22] * gavin has a vague memory of a recent mozilla bug about mpt's vague memory
  257. # [19:31] * Philip` has a memory of it being different in every browser
  258. # [19:32] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@233.80-203-100.nextgentel.com)
  259. # [19:40] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  260. # [19:43] * Quits: webben_ (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-42ae4e717194c2fd)
  261. # [19:50] <rubys> hsivonen: ping?
  262. # [19:57] * Quits: ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) ("leaving")
  263. # [20:02] <annevk> I think <input size> is probably something that should be allowed
  264. # [20:04] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
  265. # [20:08] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)")
  266. # [20:11] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-11.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  267. # [20:13] <mpt> <input size= has weak semantics in that it suggests approximately how long the entered data should be
  268. # [20:14] <mpt> (people will write less in a narrow field than a wide one)
  269. # [20:17] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lafcc.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  270. # [20:23] <rubys> any idea on how I can "recover" a nick? nickserv doesn't seem to like the password I thought I used, and /info seems to indicate that this nick was registered by me over four years ago, and even used by me just over a week ago.
  271. # [20:25] * Joins: N-K_ (n=N-K@ip-89.net-89-2-186.rev.numericable.fr)
  272. # [20:27] <gavin> rubys: I'd just /msg someone in /stats p
  273. # [20:27] <gavin> this server's nickserv doesn't appear to have a "reset password and email it to me" option
  274. # [20:27] <Dashiva> Doesn't even ask for email on registration, it seems
  275. # [20:29] <annevk> gavin, I believe /msg does not work when you're not registered
  276. # [20:29] <gavin> for everyone? hrm
  277. # [20:29] <annevk> hsivonen, http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=123 reports a bug in validator.nu (<form target> is marked non-conforming, but it is conforming)
  278. # [20:29] <gavin> I do seem to recall something like that
  279. # [20:29] <gavin> on other servers it's usually a off-by-default per-user switch
  280. # [20:31] * Quits: phsiao (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-171cb71d3b628c82) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  281. # [20:31] * Joins: phsiao (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-421fe7ac4fcfe48c)
  282. # [20:48] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-11.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  283. # [20:56] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  284. # [21:00] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.255.99.190)
  285. # [21:08] * Quits: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-cbaddc1faebb121e) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  286. # [21:14] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  287. # [21:14] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  288. # [21:15] <annevk> rubys, search forms should indeed be easier
  289. # [21:16] <annevk> that is, <form> <input type=text> <input type=submit> </form> should just be conforming
  290. # [21:16] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  291. # [21:16] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.84.28.65)
  292. # [21:18] <rubys> i think the problem is more general than that, the notion of "strictly inline content" probably should go away.
  293. # [21:18] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  294. # [21:19] <annevk> that might have been agreed on already
  295. # [21:19] <annevk> not sure if that solves the <form> thingie
  296. # [21:19] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  297. # [21:19] <annevk> btw, there's now http://html5.fr/ besides http://html5.jp/
  298. # [21:20] <annevk> (html5.fr made a validator button for validator.nu :) )
  299. # [21:22] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.99.190)
  300. # [21:23] <Philip`> Perhaps HTML5 could say that including a validator button on your web page is non-conforming
  301. # [21:23] <Dashiva> I made one too
  302. # [21:24] <Dashiva> Well, I stole one. But much the same :)
  303. # [21:24] <Philip`> It must be good for the validators' page-rank
  304. # [21:25] <Dashiva> http://dashiva.net/banner/valid-html5.png
  305. # [21:25] <Dashiva> I don't recall who made it
  306. # [21:32] <annevk> Simon I think
  307. # [21:32] <rubys> the downside of things that benefit the validator's page rank is that every crawler known to man will then proceed to pound your server to sawdust.
  308. # [21:33] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-0090.bb.online.no)
  309. # [21:35] * Quits: webben (n=benh@91.84.28.65) (Connection timed out)
  310. # [21:38] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  311. # [21:49] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com)
  312. # [21:55] * Joins: phsiao_ (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-518ed59323475e93)
  313. # [21:56] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.99.190)
  314. # [22:02] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  315. # [22:05] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  316. # [22:07] * Quits: phsiao (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-421fe7ac4fcfe48c) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  317. # [22:13] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com)
  318. # [22:15] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  319. # [22:15] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-087-110.nc.res.rr.com)
  320. # [22:16] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com) (Client Quit)
  321. # [22:19] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-0090.bb.online.no) ("Leaving")
  322. # [22:20] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  323. # [22:28] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-173-6.cable.telstraclear.net)
  324. # [22:33] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com)
  325. # [22:42] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.99.190) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  326. # [22:42] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  327. # [22:43] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.99.190)
  328. # [22:43] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  329. # [22:43] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  330. # [22:45] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com)
  331. # [22:45] <annevk> does anyone know how the document.all hiding works in Mozilla?
  332. # [22:46] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@233.80-203-100.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  333. # [22:46] <gavin> a bit
  334. # [22:46] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  335. # [22:47] <annevk> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/DOM:document.all does not exist
  336. # [22:48] <gavin> do you have specific questions, or are you just looking for a comprehensive spec? :)
  337. # [22:49] <annevk> I wonder if document.all returns some quirky object that "booleanizes" to "false"
  338. # [22:49] <annevk> or if it's some other trickery
  339. # [22:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, they never did reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Nov/0274.html
  340. # [22:50] <annevk> and whether "booleanizes" is an actual JS concept or specifically added
  341. # [22:50] <gavin> other trickery
  342. # [22:50] * Hixie sends a proposal to solve the inline/block problem
  343. # [22:50] <Hixie> but it basically requires us to stop allowing <ol> and co in paragraphs
  344. # [22:50] <gavin> I believe it hooks gets of document.all and returns "undefined" if it's in a "detecting" context
  345. # [22:52] <annevk> interesting
  346. # [22:52] <gavin> hmm
  347. # [22:52] <gavin> http://lxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/dom/src/base/nsDOMClassInfo.cpp#7889
  348. # [22:53] <annevk> Hixie, you could make <ol> and <ul> imply <p> around them too
  349. # [22:53] * Quits: N-K_ (n=N-K@ip-89.net-89-2-186.rev.numericable.fr) ("ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox 2.0.0.11/2007112718]")
  350. # [22:54] <gavin> as I read that, it makes document.all exist if you try to get .length, .item(), or something that matches an id from it, but not exist otherwise
  351. # [22:54] <annevk> that file seems to beat HTML 5 in bytes
  352. # [22:55] <gavin> yeah, it's got a lot of icky DOM magic built into it :)
  353. # [22:56] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.99.190) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  354. # [22:56] <Hixie> annevk: but then you could never use <p> in <li>
  355. # [22:56] <Hixie> or <hx> in <li>
  356. # [22:56] <Hixie> etc
  357. # [22:57] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.99.190)
  358. # [22:57] <annevk> sorry, what I meant was that <aside> TEXT <ol> is like <aside> <p> TEST </p> <ol>
  359. # [22:57] <Hixie> right, that means not allowing <ol> in <p>
  360. # [22:58] <annevk> yes, but you marked that example as non-conforming
  361. # [22:58] <annevk> <aside> TEXT <ul> <li> <p> TEXT
  362. # [22:58] <annevk> to be more specific
  363. # [22:59] <annevk> oh, or that because of the <em> on the line before?
  364. # [22:59] <Hixie> an <ol> is either inline or block
  365. # [22:59] <Hixie> if it's inline, it can't contain blocks
  366. # [22:59] <Hixie> if it's inside a paragraph, it's inline
  367. # [23:00] <Hixie> if we allow <ol> inside paragraphs, then <aside> text <ol>... looks the same as <aside> <p> text <ol>...
  368. # [23:00] <Hixie> (assuming we do implied <p>s)
  369. # [23:01] <Hixie> (i think doing implied <p>s around only elements that can't be blocks would be even more confusing)
  370. # [23:01] <annevk> <aside> the way people use IMHO doesn't seem humble at all most of the time
  371. # [23:01] <Hixie> heh
  372. # [23:02] <gavin> that's completely wrong and you're stupid, IMHO
  373. # [23:02] <annevk> <aside> TEXT <ul> <li> TEXT <p> TEXT
  374. # [23:02] <annevk> why is the <p> non-conforming with implied paragraphs
  375. # [23:02] <annevk> ?
  376. # [23:04] <Hixie> if we assume that <ul> can be inline, and if we assume that implied paragraphs wrap all potentially inline elements in a run, then the <ul> in that example is inline and inside a paragraph. Elements that are inline can't contain blocks.
  377. # [23:06] <annevk> ok, my proposal (on top of implied paragraphs) was to make <ul>, etc. block elements
  378. # [23:06] <Hixie> that's what i said. remove the ability for <ol> to be inside <p>.
  379. # [23:10] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-0090.bb.online.no)
  380. # [23:14] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@217.207.76.231)
  381. # [23:18] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.100.81)
  382. # [23:18] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
  383. # [23:22] * Joins: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@host86-135-224-200.range86-135.btcentralplus.com)
  384. # [23:27] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  385. # [23:39] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-194-118.range86-138.btcentralplus.com) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  386. # [23:43] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  387. # [23:43] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-0090.bb.online.no) ("Leaving")
  388. # [23:44] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  389. # [23:44] * Joins: kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  390. # [23:55] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-173-6.cable.telstraclear.net)
  391. # [23:59] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.99.190)
  392. # Session Close: Fri Dec 07 00:00:00 2007

The end :)