Options:
- # Session Start: Fri Dec 07 00:00:00 2007
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
- # [00:04] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
- # [00:14] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.99.190)
- # [00:24] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.99.190)
- # [00:51] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@217.207.76.231) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
- # [00:51] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.100.81)
- # [01:02] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@217.207.76.231)
- # [01:06] * Quits: kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
- # [01:08] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@83.100.250.48) ("ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
- # [01:08] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com)
- # [01:11] * Quits: phsiao_ (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-518ed59323475e93)
- # [01:15] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.84.28.65)
- # [01:23] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
- # [01:29] * Quits: webben (n=benh@91.84.28.65)
- # [01:31] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@c-24-61-15-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
- # [01:32] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Connection timed out)
- # [01:32] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
- # [01:34] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
- # [01:34] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
- # [01:40] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
- # [01:40] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
- # [01:41] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.100.81)
- # [01:48] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
- # [01:48] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
- # [01:49] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [02:07] * Joins: csarven- (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
- # [02:07] * Joins: phsiao_ (n=shawn@c-24-61-15-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
- # [02:07] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@c-24-61-15-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- # [02:25] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
- # [02:40] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)")
- # [02:45] <Hixie> SQL query:
- # [02:45] <Hixie> LOCK TABLES `section` , `status` , `tests` , `demos` , `implementations` , `changes` READ
- # [02:45] <Hixie> MySQL said: Documentation
- # [02:45] <Hixie> #1064 - You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near ' `status`, `tests`, `demos`, `implementations`, `changes` READ' at line 1
- # [02:45] <Hixie> wtf
- # [02:45] <Hixie> what's wrong with that line
- # [02:45] <Hixie> all those tables exist
- # [02:45] <Hixie> OH
- # [02:45] <Hixie> i see
- # [02:46] <Hixie> 4.x expects the lock type after each table name
- # [02:46] <Hixie> duh
- # [02:49] * Joins: Charl (n=charlvn@196.209.215.168)
- # [02:55] <MikeSmith> Hixie - I have a perhaps dumb question but I will ask anyway. Is post-serialized output of a source document idempotent if re-run through the conformant parser multiple times?
- # [02:57] <Hixie> in theory
- # [02:58] <Hixie> if you find any cases where it's not, let me know
- # [02:58] <Hixie> it is certainly the case that certain conforming documents can't round-trip safely
- # [02:58] <Hixie> whitespace tends to be dropped or moved near the start and end of documents, for historical reasons
- # [03:01] <Dashiva> But even if the whitespace is moved, they produce the same DOM, don't they?
- # [03:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie - at least running a doc through html5lib parse.py multiple times seems to result in linebreaks getting added cumulatively before the closing body tag in the serialized output
- # [03:01] * Joins: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25)
- # [03:01] <MikeSmith> Or maybe pilot error
- # [03:02] * MikeSmith goes to check his test file again
- # [03:04] <MikeSmith> I was wrong. Sorry about the noise
- # [03:05] <MikeSmith> just gets added once
- # [03:09] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
- # [03:09] <Hixie> Dashiva: yeah
- # [03:09] * Philip` wonders what is the maximum filesize expansion if you pass something through an HTML5 parser then serialiser
- # [03:10] <MikeSmith> so with the following minimal source:
- # [03:11] <MikeSmith> <html><head><title>foo</title></head><body><p>foo</p>
- # [03:11] <MikeSmith> </body></html>
- # [03:11] <MikeSmith> I get a linebreak added before closing body tag in output
- # [03:12] * MikeSmith shuts up and goes to read the spec for the parsing algoritm
- # [03:13] * Joins: aroben_ (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
- # [03:15] * Joins: aroben__ (n=aroben@17.255.110.9)
- # [03:15] <Philip`> Hmm, I can get O(n^2) growth with a file like <b><b><b><b><u><u><u><u> </b> </b> </b> </b>
- # [03:15] * Philip` wonders if that's the worst that's possible
- # [03:23] <Dashiva> What about lone <td> tags?
- # [03:23] <Dashiva> <td></table> repeated, maybe
- # [03:28] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.140) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- # [03:28] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
- # [03:29] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [03:30] * Quits: aroben_ (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [03:38] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
- # [03:38] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.100.81)
- # [03:40] <Hixie> ok you can add annotations now, at least in the ui...
- # [03:40] * Quits: aroben|meeting (i=aroben@nat/apple/x-b4e3032c0c38e9e4) ("Leaving")
- # [03:40] <Hixie> but i suppose none of that will work until you can log in...
- # [03:58] * Quits: aroben__ (n=aroben@17.255.110.9) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [04:21] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
- # [04:21] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- # [04:30] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
- # [04:35] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [04:35] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [04:35] * Quits: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [04:35] * Quits: bradee-oh (n=bradeeoh@web7.webfaction.com) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [04:35] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [04:35] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [04:35] * Quits: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [04:46] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
- # [04:46] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
- # [04:46] * Joins: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl)
- # [04:46] * Joins: bradee-oh (n=bradeeoh@web7.webfaction.com)
- # [04:46] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
- # [04:46] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp)
- # [04:46] * Joins: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
- # [04:59] * Quits: sYn-Zilch (i=fuz007@c-68-54-228-249.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- # [05:13] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-173-6.cable.telstraclear.net)
- # [05:15] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.100.81)
- # [05:28] * Quits: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [05:28] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [05:28] * Quits: bradee-oh (n=bradeeoh@web7.webfaction.com) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [05:28] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [05:28] * Quits: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [05:28] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [05:28] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [05:28] <Hixie> you are in a twisty maze of callbacks, all alike
- # [05:30] * Joins: bradee-oh (n=bradeeoh@web7.webfaction.com)
- # [05:32] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
- # [05:34] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
- # [05:37] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
- # [05:37] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
- # [05:37] * Joins: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl)
- # [05:37] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
- # [05:37] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp)
- # [05:37] * Joins: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
- # [05:46] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@81-5-133-33.static.nfwebsolutions.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- # [05:46] * Quits: csarven- (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca/")
- # [05:46] * Joins: dbaron_ (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
- # [05:46] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- # [05:54] * Quits: dbaron_ (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [05:54] * Quits: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [05:54] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [05:54] * Quits: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [05:54] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [05:54] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [05:54] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
- # [06:07] * Joins: dbaron_ (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
- # [06:07] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
- # [06:07] * Joins: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl)
- # [06:07] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
- # [06:07] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp)
- # [06:07] * Joins: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
- # [06:10] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-185-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
- # [06:12] * Quits: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [06:12] * Quits: dbaron_ (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [06:12] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [06:12] * Quits: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [06:12] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [06:12] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [06:12] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.100.81) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [06:15] * Joins: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
- # [06:27] * Joins: dbaron_ (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
- # [06:27] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
- # [06:27] * Joins: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl)
- # [06:27] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp)
- # [06:27] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [06:27] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [06:28] * Quits: dbaron_ (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [06:28] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
- # [06:29] * Joins: dbaron_ (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
- # [06:29] * Quits: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [06:30] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp)
- # [07:03] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("brb")
- # [07:09] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
- # [07:11] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-173-6.cable.telstraclear.net)
- # [07:14] * Joins: gavins (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
- # [07:14] * gavins is now known as gavin_
- # [07:22] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
- # [07:24] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
- # [07:33] * Joins: peepo (n=Jay@host86-151-7-99.range86-151.btcentralplus.com)
- # [07:42] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
- # [07:51] * Quits: phsiao_ (n=shawn@c-24-61-15-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
- # [08:14] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-11.dsl.telstraclear.net)
- # [08:18] * Quits: dbaron_ (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
- # [08:53] <Hixie> i agree with your last e-mail, i think i tried to describe one other way of deciding where the line is in my own most recent email
- # [09:15] <Hixie> wtf, XMLHttpRequest.status == 0 ???
- # [09:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: was that my last email?
- # [09:18] <Hixie> was what your last e-mail?
- # [09:19] <Hixie> i meant the bit about unambiguous interop not being the line for what is invalid
- # [09:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: you said "i agree with your last e-mail"
- # [09:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
- # [09:20] <hsivonen> I sense a huge bikeshed approaching
- # [09:23] <Hixie> well, we can try to make it more complicated :-)
- # [09:24] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com)
- # [09:27] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@217.207.76.231) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
- # [09:30] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
- # [09:31] <Hixie> woot, we're down to just one XXX in this annotation script
- # [09:39] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-173-6.cable.telstraclear.net)
- # [09:43] <Hixie> sql really is the wrong database technology for this
- # [09:51] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@213.236.208.247)
- # [09:54] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
- # [10:00] * Joins: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-9ab216b7d0c9b1a6)
- # [10:05] * Quits: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-9ab216b7d0c9b1a6) (Client Quit)
- # [10:05] * Joins: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-21c06ccc7f59b799)
- # [10:32] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
- # [10:48] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
- # [10:57] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@140.80-202-68.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [11:01] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
- # [11:01] * Joins: anne-mac (n=annevk@213.236.208.247)
- # [11:01] * annevk looks at anne-mac
- # [11:06] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
- # [11:09] * Joins: billyjack (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
- # [11:12] * Quits: billyjack (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) (Client Quit)
- # [11:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in case you hadn't noticed... http://tinyurl.com/2wywpp s/error errors/errors/ and error 18 and 20 don't mark the right fragment of the source
- # [11:13] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
- # [11:15] <annevk> yeah, I noticed that too when there were a larger number of errors
- # [11:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks, I hadn't noticed
- # [11:18] <hsivonen> hmm. the source highlight behavior in those results is *weird*
- # [11:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: error errors fixed locally. will appear on site later today hopefully
- # [11:19] <othermaciej> annevk: finally decided to switch?
- # [11:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: seems that at some point the line numbers get wrong
- # [11:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes
- # [11:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan: debugging that won't be fun :-(
- # [11:22] <annevk> othermaciej, I bought a MacBook to play with
- # [11:22] <annevk> I'm still mostly using Ubuntu
- # [11:22] <othermaciej> annevk: cool, now you have no excuse for posting test results that don't include Safari :-)
- # [11:22] <annevk> heh
- # [11:22] <annevk> yeah, that's one advantage
- # [11:31] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
- # [11:54] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
- # [11:54] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-11.dsl.telstraclear.net)
- # [11:57] * Quits: peepo (n=Jay@host86-151-7-99.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) ("later")
- # [12:08] * Joins: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25)
- # [12:14] * Quits: anne-mac (n=annevk@213.236.208.247) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [12:16] * Hixie deploys his spec annotation script onto the actual spec without much testing
- # [12:20] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("brre")
- # [12:23] <Dashiva> Hixie: 0 is nothing, wait until you encounter the ones around the 12029 range :)
- # [12:25] <Hixie> yeah but there was no reason for it
- # [12:25] <Hixie> the error disappeared shortly afterwards and i haven't been able to reproduce it
- # [12:26] <Hixie> i really need to write my own preprocessor for the html5 script
- # [12:26] <Hixie> bert's script is becoming painfully slow
- # [12:27] * Quits: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-21c06ccc7f59b799) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
- # [12:28] <annevk> please make it generic
- # [12:28] <annevk> having a public version of the CSS spec generator that is open source would be cool
- # [12:31] * Hixie is still waiting for bert's script to respond
- # [12:31] <Hixie> weird
- # [12:31] <Hixie> doesn't normally take THIS long
- # [12:32] <annevk> it doesn't work for me
- # [12:36] <MikeSmith> Hixie, annevk - there's apparently a problem right now with a java process eating up all the cpu on cgi.w3.org
- # [12:36] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-173-6.cable.telstraclear.net)
- # [12:37] <Hixie> ok
- # [12:37] <MikeSmith> btw, I think Bert's script has a dependencies on other tools he's writeen
- # [12:37] <Hixie> well then i'll deploy the annotation stuff while i'm asleep
- # [12:37] * Hixie tells his script to wait 4 hours then regen the spec
- # [12:37] <Hixie> bed time
- # [12:37] <Hixie> nn
- # [12:38] <MikeSmith> night
- # [12:50] * Joins: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-ef40260ec0c7cd9e)
- # [12:52] * Quits: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-ef40260ec0c7cd9e) (Client Quit)
- # [12:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: <footer> allows inline-level content per spec
- # [13:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: interesting. has it always been that way?
- # [13:03] <zcorpan> yees
- # [13:03] <zcorpan> s/e//
- # [13:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. fixed locally
- # [13:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: should i point that out on the list as well?
- # [13:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that would help, I think
- # [13:07] <hsivonen> I'm pushing out the change now
- # [13:08] <zcorpan> ok
- # [13:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: fix deployed
- # [13:13] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IRI checking changes deployed
- # [13:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: nice
- # [13:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - sweet
- # [13:15] <MikeSmith> top-secret HTML5 version of the HTML WG home page now validates
- # [13:15] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/5.html
- # [13:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: <!DOCTYPE html>
- # [13:17] <hsivonen> <html lang=en xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml>
- # [13:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that's weird
- # [13:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - it's generated from XHTML source
- # [13:18] <hsivonen> ah
- # [13:18] <MikeSmith> and conformant
- # [13:18] <MikeSmith> if weird
- # [13:18] <MikeSmith> I doubt Dan would go for the idea of doing it the other way around
- # [13:19] <MikeSmith> that is, maintaining source in HTML and generating the XHTML from that
- # [13:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sure, it makes sense to maintain the source as XHTML
- # [13:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I just didn't realize that you were doing that
- # [13:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'd expect an HTML5 serializer to drop xmlns
- # [13:20] <MikeSmith> html5lib parse.py util doesn't drop it a least
- # [13:20] <MikeSmith> I think it would make sense if it did, though
- # [13:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: in the Validator.nu parser, dropping it is configurable
- # [13:21] <annevk> you got to like what it does now :D
- # [13:21] <MikeSmith> heh
- # [13:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: which shows that allowing the xmlns isn't low-cost, as it had the cost of implementing that configurability
- # [13:22] <hsivonen> s/low-cost/no-cost/
- # [13:22] <MikeSmith> true that
- # [13:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - anyway, no longer any XSLT output method=html there. I just uses html5lib now
- # [13:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: great
- # [13:24] <MikeSmith> plus some sed postprocessing to add linebreaks for prettification purposes
- # [13:33] <hsivonen> annevk: is step #3 at http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest/#text-response-entity-body consistent with reality? shouldn't you override the XML normative reference to RFC 3023?
- # [13:34] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247)
- # [13:34] <zcorpan> how about fixing rfc 3023? :)
- # [13:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: feel free to try
- # [13:36] <zcorpan> at some point i might
- # [13:36] <zcorpan> try that is
- # [13:42] * Joins: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl)
- # [13:50] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [14:03] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
- # [14:10] * Philip` wonders what is a useful tool if you have thirty minutes to prepare a five minute presentation
- # [14:10] * annevk is doing that now using HTML + some CSS
- # [14:12] <zcorpan> there is an opera show generator somewhere, though i don't know where and google seems to point at 404s :(
- # [14:12] <Philip`> Also I have no idea what computer I can use so it might be stuck with IE
- # [14:20] * Joins: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-c3439e529c7b8cda)
- # [14:38] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
- # [14:46] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-135-224-200.range86-135.btcentralplus.com) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [14:46] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@nox.vm.bytemark.co.uk) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [14:46] * Quits: jgraham (n=jgraham@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [14:47] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-135-224-200.range86-135.btcentralplus.com)
- # [14:47] * Joins: hendry (n=hendry@nox.vm.bytemark.co.uk)
- # [14:47] * Joins: jgraham (n=jgraham@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com)
- # [14:47] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=w@79.163.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
- # [14:53] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [15:01] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@79.163.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [15:08] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@c-24-61-15-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
- # [15:10] * Quits: bradee-oh (n=bradeeoh@web7.webfaction.com) ("Disconnecting from stoned server.")
- # [15:10] * Joins: bradee-oh (n=bradeeoh@web7.webfaction.com)
- # [15:17] <Dashiva> Oh hey, cod@type got brought up again...
- # [15:19] <hendry> annevk: just looking at http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control So if the server responds with: Access-Control: allow <hello-world.invalid>, why would a request from evil-world.invalid obey that header?
- # [15:20] <Dashiva> As I understand it, it's not up to evil-world to decide. The browser does that before it serves responses
- # [15:20] <Dashiva> s/browser/UA/
- # [15:21] <hendry> you mean the UA that evil-world.invalid is using?
- # [15:23] <Dashiva> I'm not sure why it would
- # [15:24] <Dashiva> Any UA can send requests anywhere as it is. Some of them use restrictions (e.g. no cross-domain XHR). Access-control lets these restrictions have exceptions
- # [15:25] <hendry> I am having trouble visualising this. Is there some diagram I wonder.
- # [15:26] <hendry> So for UAs that are restricted (some policy?), Access-control is a way of defining some "safe sites"? Is that what you are saying Dashiva ?
- # [15:26] <Dashiva> Yes
- # [15:27] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [15:27] <Dashiva> Flash has a similar thing, if you're familiar with that
- # [15:27] <hendry> Dashiva: no i'm not
- # [15:28] <hendry> Dashiva: I wonder if Flash's security model is any good. and documented
- # [15:29] <hsivonen> hendry: you run a trusted UA inside your firewall
- # [15:29] <hsivonen> hendry: your trusted UA makes the decision whether the script from evil.invalid gets to talk with the servers on the inside of your network perimeter
- # [15:33] <hendry> ok, thanks for the explanation
- # [15:34] <hendry> i distantly recall that IE had some sort of privacy control features: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/ie6/using/howto/privacy/config.mspx
- # [15:34] <hendry> i think it was some standard even WRT privacy policies
- # [15:35] <hendry> i can't see anything in FF similar. or am i looking in the wrong place
- # [15:36] <hendry> ah P3P
- # [15:37] <hendry> anyone know what's happening with http://www.w3.org/P3P/ ? is it dead? is it used? does it have a future?
- # [15:37] <hsivonen> is P3P actually used or was it just a distraction for shaking off the FTC regulators?
- # [15:38] <hendry> heh
- # [15:39] <hsivonen> Facebook shows that industry self-regulation isn't working
- # [15:39] * Joins: webben (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-181b1f271be88cac)
- # [15:39] <hendry> hsivonen: why's that?
- # [15:39] * hendry logs into FB :)
- # [15:40] <hsivonen> hendry: Beacon
- # [15:42] <hendry> ok, ummm.. is there some blog entry explaining this all? What are you saying? They have not regulated people privacy to your requirements?
- # [15:42] <Dashiva> privacy doesn't exist on facebook
- # [15:43] <hendry> tbh i like their controls
- # [15:43] <hendry> i think a lot people (not just me) are fooled into a false sense of security :)
- # [15:44] <hendry> Dashiva: surely they have some limits. Privacy isn't boolean
- # [15:45] <Dashiva> Sure, you have privacy from other users.
- # [15:46] <hendry> But not from the sysops? Is that what you are saying?
- # [15:48] <Dashiva> Just read up on beacon :)
- # [15:49] <hsivonen> hendry: http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/2007/11/27/SomeThoughtsOnTheFacebookBeacon.aspx
- # [15:50] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@c-24-61-15-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
- # [16:02] * Joins: peepo (n=Jay@host86-151-7-99.range86-151.btcentralplus.com)
- # [16:06] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
- # [16:09] * Joins: phsiao (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-9ec40f3c351e1ac7)
- # [16:15] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
- # [16:17] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@81-5-133-33.static.nfwebsolutions.com)
- # [16:20] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@213.236.208.247) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
- # [16:27] <hendry> just looking at FF3. it also doesn't seem to have a notion of a trusted zone. So how does the FF UA know it's in a trusted zone?
- # [16:33] <hsivonen> hendry: do you mean you'd like to give chrome access to certain http URIs?
- # [16:42] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
- # [16:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: the HTML5 spec gives me an unresponsive script sheet in Firefox
- # [16:51] <hendry> hsivonen: well, I assume when you talk about a trusted UA in a firewall. Mustn't the UA be configured as to what to trust as a start point?
- # [16:51] <hsivonen> hendry: no. that's the point of the access-control spec
- # [16:52] <hsivonen> hendry: the servers tell what other servers they trust
- # [16:52] <hendry> ok, so the UA goes to a web site that returns those access-control headers
- # [16:52] <hsivonen> hendry: and presumably your inside firewall servers wouldn't say they their data is OK to leak to outside of firewall servers
- # [16:53] <hsivonen> hendry: the idea is that a site can control what other sites its data can be leaked to
- # [16:54] <hendry> Ok
- # [16:56] <hendry> and the UA enforces the policies right? so you need a "trusted UA" right? a UA that will obey these access control statements
- # [16:56] <hsivonen> hendry: yes
- # [16:57] <hendry> how can a web site be sure the UA accessing it will properly enforce it's access control rules?
- # [16:57] <hsivonen> hendry: they can't
- # [16:57] <hsivonen> hendry: by default XSS leaks are not allowed
- # [16:58] <hendry> you mean same origin stuff implemented on browsers? yeah, but there are ways of getting around that?
- # [16:59] <hsivonen> hendry: access-control is about letting sites relax same-origin
- # [17:03] <hendry> though aren't there well known ways around same-origin cross-site limitations? perhaps these holes will be closed mind.
- # [17:03] <hsivonen> hendry: in general, if a script from site A can read data from site B without cooperation from site B, that's a bug
- # [17:04] <hsivonen> hendry: there are already ways for a script at site A to issue GET and POST requests to site B without the cooperation of site B
- # [17:04] <hsivonen> hendry: but that's different from reading the responses
- # [17:07] <hsivonen> hendry: what kind of ways around same same origin you had in mind?
- # [17:07] * Quits: webben (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-181b1f271be88cac) (Connection timed out)
- # [17:08] <hendry> hsivonen: i did something the other day
- # [17:08] <hendry> which created a <script> tag and called in a JS from another site
- # [17:08] <hendry> i am not too sure if that is considered a same-origin hack
- # [17:09] <hendry> i think jquery does something similar with .load() or something like that
- # [17:09] <hsivonen> hendry: yeah, there's a hole if the remote script file embodies sensitive data
- # [17:10] <hendry> hsivonen: not too sure what is meant by your "reading the responses" line
- # [17:10] <hsivonen> hendry: which is a dumb thing for a script to do
- # [17:12] <hsivonen> hendry: I mean the script reading the contents of an HTTP request to another site in a way that it can send back to its own server
- # [17:14] <hendry> i need diagrams to explain some thoughts i have easily.
- # [17:15] <hendry> heh
- # [17:20] * hendry just orders a X61... now i am thinking a tablet would have been useful after all :)
- # [17:20] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
- # [17:21] <Dashiva> heh
- # [17:23] <hendry> i'll be in San Francisco next week. I think I'll buy a wacom bamboo tablet. I hope it'll work in Debian.
- # [17:25] <Dashiva> http://dashiva.net/test/access.jpg
- # [17:25] <Dashiva> Does that help?
- # [17:30] <hendry> Dashiva: You need Access-Control: allow <good.example.org>
- # [17:30] <hendry> on resource.example.com, right?
- # [17:32] <Dashiva> yes
- # [17:33] <hendry> Dashiva: ok, it did help. wtf did you draw that in btw? :)
- # [17:33] <Dashiva> mspaint, what else? :)
- # [17:34] <Philip`> You should have used CanvasPaint
- # [17:34] <hendry> looks like dos paint
- # [17:34] <Philip`> (or SVG)
- # [17:35] <hendry> yes, canvas+svg need to get out there
- # [17:43] <hendry> still thinking here
- # [17:43] <hendry> this access-control: stuff is done by web sites
- # [17:43] <hendry> surely a web site user should be more in control
- # [17:44] <hendry> or is the web site supposed to provide an interface for the user to enter which sites data can be shared with
- # [17:44] <hendry> for the web site in turn to generate the right access-control headers
- # [17:44] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com)
- # [17:47] * Joins: heycam` (n=cam@210-84-2-200.dyn.iinet.net.au)
- # [17:48] <Dashiva> hendry: It can be done in headers, but also with PIs if the data is XML
- # [17:48] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [17:51] <csarven> is it appropriate for all documents on a site use the same h1? should h1 be reserved for heading that is specific to that document?
- # [17:52] <csarven> if the site is called 'Foo', should all documents on that site use 'Foo' in <h1> or would you reserve h1 for things like 'Welcome to Foo', 'About Foo'... and perhaps using 'Foo' in <address> only
- # [17:56] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@203-217-91-18.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
- # [18:03] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
- # [18:15] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com)
- # [18:17] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-218-70.dsl.pipex.com) (Client Quit)
- # [18:46] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-204-145-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
- # [18:49] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-204-145-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
- # [19:00] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-204-145-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
- # [19:02] * Quits: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-c3439e529c7b8cda) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
- # [19:12] <bradee-oh> Hixie: multipage version of HTML5 currently MIA?
- # [19:19] * Joins: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-7d2da3befb40c2d6)
- # [19:22] * Quits: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-7d2da3befb40c2d6) (Client Quit)
- # [19:24] * Joins: aroben (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
- # [19:29] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-185-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
- # [19:34] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
- # [19:37] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9d7f.l.pppool.de)
- # [20:04] * Quits: Charl (n=charlvn@196.209.215.168) ("Leaving")
- # [20:09] * Quits: peepo (n=Jay@host86-151-7-99.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) ("later")
- # [20:11] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-11.dsl.telstraclear.net)
- # [20:14] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
- # [20:21] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-11.dsl.telstraclear.net)
- # [20:27] <Hixie> SPEC NOW HAS ANNOTATION MECHANISM
- # [20:27] <Hixie> er
- # [20:27] <Hixie> mascaps
- # [20:27] <Hixie> miscaps
- # [20:27] <Hixie> bbiab
- # [20:28] <Dashiva> multipage is till MIA, it seems
- # [20:29] <Dashiva> *still
- # [20:34] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@83.100.250.48)
- # [20:39] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-204-145-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
- # [20:41] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [20:52] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
- # [20:55] * Joins: inimino__ (n=chatzill@c-75-71-88-233.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
- # [20:59] * Parts: inimino__ (n=chatzill@c-75-71-88-233.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
- # [20:59] <Hixie> huh, weird
- # [20:59] * Joins: inimino_ (n=chatzill@c-75-71-88-233.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
- # [21:06] <aroben> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ seems troubled
- # [21:07] <aroben> Hixie: annotation stuff is very cool though
- # [21:08] <aroben> Hixie: I guess it's impossible to mark an implementation as "pass" without a testsuite first
- # [21:08] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
- # [21:14] <Philip`> Does non-native support count?
- # [21:15] <Philip`> (e.g. Excanvas)
- # [21:15] <Philip`> If so, who decides which non-native implementation should be counted?
- # [21:19] <Philip`> Hixie: If I middle-click on the show-history link, it doesn't warn me that it's broken
- # [21:21] <Hixie> no
- # [21:21] <Hixie> oh, interesting
- # [21:21] <Hixie> will fix once i have the multipage thing done
- # [21:21] <Hixie> still can't work out why that's broken
- # [21:21] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@83.100.250.48) ("reboot, rinse, repeat")
- # [21:22] <Philip`> Hixie: Double-click to edit is not intuitive
- # [21:23] <Philip`> (An "edit" link would be more obvious)
- # [21:24] <Philip`> It's not obvious what the "tests" or "demos" fields are meant to contain, at least when looking at an empty one
- # [21:26] <Philip`> "Section status: Widely implemented" seems an odd option, since some features are widely implemented at the same time as the spec for them is a first draft (particularly when it's specifying old unstandardised features)
- # [21:29] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- # [21:29] <Hixie> there actually is an edit link, it's display:none
- # [21:29] <Hixie> it looks ugly :-)
- # [21:29] <Hixie> but i can readd it i guess
- # [21:30] <Hixie> though if you know that double-click adds, it's not a far jump to double-click to edit
- # [21:31] * Philip` turns stylesheets off, and sees the edit link now
- # [21:31] <Philip`> The editing UI is not so good without stylesheets, though
- # [21:31] <Philip`> Hixie: Oh, double-click adds?
- # [21:31] <Hixie> yeah
- # [21:32] <Philip`> The double-click to add behaviour is not intuitive ;-)
- # [21:32] <Hixie> yeah
- # [21:32] <Hixie> not sure how to do it better
- # [21:33] <Philip`> What is the scope of annotations? (Are they on <h3>s or something?)
- # [21:33] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
- # [21:34] <Hixie> they look at whereever you double click, and find the first element above it to have an id
- # [21:34] <Hixie> which will typically be an <hx>
- # [21:34] <Hixie> first element child of body
- # [21:36] * Philip` doesn't know if it'd be too distracting to have a little edit link beside each possible annotatable location
- # [21:37] <Philip`> s/edit/add/
- # [21:37] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)")
- # [21:38] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
- # [21:40] <Hixie> Philip`: i think having it non-intuitive is ok, the people who should be editing it can be told what the ui is
- # [21:40] <Hixie> it's not hard to explain
- # [21:40] <Hixie> multipage is back up
- # [21:40] <Hixie> but for some reason the annotations aren't showing up
- # [21:44] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@83.100.250.48)
- # [21:44] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
- # [22:00] <Hixie> Philip`: as far as i can tell, the middle click of a link does give the warning
- # [22:00] <Hixie> well, error
- # [22:06] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
- # [22:08] <Philip`> Hixie: Not in Opera 9.2
- # [22:08] <Hixie> probably a bug in opera
- # [22:08] <Philip`> (Also the Safari icon doesn't work in Opera)
- # [22:11] <Hixie> if you have any suggestions for changes to the section status options, let me know
- # [22:11] <Hixie> afk lunch
- # [22:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: it would help if the annotation UI highlighted the part of spec being annotated. I can't figure the scope of an annotation
- # [22:28] * Joins: Dashimon (i=Dashiva@15.84-48-60.nextgentel.com)
- # [22:29] * Quits: inimino_ (n=chatzill@c-75-71-88-233.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [22:29] * Quits: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [22:29] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@15.84-48-60.nextgentel.com) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [22:29] * Quits: alp (n=alp@host-87-74-21-228.bulldogdsl.com) (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
- # [22:29] * Dashimon is now known as Dashiva
- # [22:31] * Joins: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk)
- # [22:33] * Joins: alp (n=alp@host-87-74-21-228.bulldogdsl.com)
- # [22:45] * Joins: inimino_ (n=chatzill@c-75-71-88-233.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
- # [22:46] * inimino_ is now known as inimino
- # [22:50] * Joins: N-K (n=N-K@ip-89.net-89-2-186.rev.numericable.fr)
- # [23:00] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
- # [23:07] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)")
- # [23:09] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66)
- # [23:15] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@81-5-133-33.static.nfwebsolutions.com) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
- # [23:30] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9d7f.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
- # [23:38] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
- # Session Close: Sat Dec 08 00:00:00 2007
The end :)