/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-12-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 07 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  32. # [02:45] <Hixie> SQL query:
  33. # [02:45] <Hixie> LOCK TABLES `section` , `status` , `tests` , `demos` , `implementations` , `changes` READ
  34. # [02:45] <Hixie> MySQL said: Documentation
  35. # [02:45] <Hixie> #1064 - You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near ' `status`, `tests`, `demos`, `implementations`, `changes` READ' at line 1
  36. # [02:45] <Hixie> wtf
  37. # [02:45] <Hixie> what's wrong with that line
  38. # [02:45] <Hixie> all those tables exist
  39. # [02:45] <Hixie> OH
  40. # [02:45] <Hixie> i see
  41. # [02:46] <Hixie> 4.x expects the lock type after each table name
  42. # [02:46] <Hixie> duh
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  44. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> Hixie - I have a perhaps dumb question but I will ask anyway. Is post-serialized output of a source document idempotent if re-run through the conformant parser multiple times?
  45. # [02:57] <Hixie> in theory
  46. # [02:58] <Hixie> if you find any cases where it's not, let me know
  47. # [02:58] <Hixie> it is certainly the case that certain conforming documents can't round-trip safely
  48. # [02:58] <Hixie> whitespace tends to be dropped or moved near the start and end of documents, for historical reasons
  49. # [03:01] <Dashiva> But even if the whitespace is moved, they produce the same DOM, don't they?
  50. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie - at least running a doc through html5lib parse.py multiple times seems to result in linebreaks getting added cumulatively before the closing body tag in the serialized output
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  52. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> Or maybe pilot error
  53. # [03:02] * MikeSmith goes to check his test file again
  54. # [03:04] <MikeSmith> I was wrong. Sorry about the noise
  55. # [03:05] <MikeSmith> just gets added once
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  57. # [03:09] <Hixie> Dashiva: yeah
  58. # [03:09] * Philip` wonders what is the maximum filesize expansion if you pass something through an HTML5 parser then serialiser
  59. # [03:10] <MikeSmith> so with the following minimal source:
  60. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> <html><head><title>foo</title></head><body><p>foo</p>
  61. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> </body></html>
  62. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> I get a linebreak added before closing body tag in output
  63. # [03:12] * MikeSmith shuts up and goes to read the spec for the parsing algoritm
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  66. # [03:15] <Philip`> Hmm, I can get O(n^2) growth with a file like <b><b><b><b><u><u><u><u> </b> </b> </b> </b>
  67. # [03:15] * Philip` wonders if that's the worst that's possible
  68. # [03:23] <Dashiva> What about lone <td> tags?
  69. # [03:23] <Dashiva> <td></table> repeated, maybe
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  76. # [03:40] <Hixie> ok you can add annotations now, at least in the ui...
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  78. # [03:40] <Hixie> but i suppose none of that will work until you can log in...
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  107. # [05:28] <Hixie> you are in a twisty maze of callbacks, all alike
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  166. # [08:53] <Hixie> i agree with your last e-mail, i think i tried to describe one other way of deciding where the line is in my own most recent email
  167. # [09:15] <Hixie> wtf, XMLHttpRequest.status == 0 ???
  168. # [09:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: was that my last email?
  169. # [09:18] <Hixie> was what your last e-mail?
  170. # [09:19] <Hixie> i meant the bit about unambiguous interop not being the line for what is invalid
  171. # [09:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: you said "i agree with your last e-mail"
  172. # [09:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  173. # [09:20] <hsivonen> I sense a huge bikeshed approaching
  174. # [09:23] <Hixie> well, we can try to make it more complicated :-)
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  178. # [09:31] <Hixie> woot, we're down to just one XXX in this annotation script
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  180. # [09:43] <Hixie> sql really is the wrong database technology for this
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  195. # [11:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in case you hadn't noticed... http://tinyurl.com/2wywpp s/error errors/errors/ and error 18 and 20 don't mark the right fragment of the source
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  197. # [11:15] <annevk> yeah, I noticed that too when there were a larger number of errors
  198. # [11:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks, I hadn't noticed
  199. # [11:18] <hsivonen> hmm. the source highlight behavior in those results is *weird*
  200. # [11:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: error errors fixed locally. will appear on site later today hopefully
  201. # [11:19] <othermaciej> annevk: finally decided to switch?
  202. # [11:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: seems that at some point the line numbers get wrong
  203. # [11:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes
  204. # [11:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan: debugging that won't be fun :-(
  205. # [11:22] <annevk> othermaciej, I bought a MacBook to play with
  206. # [11:22] <annevk> I'm still mostly using Ubuntu
  207. # [11:22] <othermaciej> annevk: cool, now you have no excuse for posting test results that don't include Safari :-)
  208. # [11:22] <annevk> heh
  209. # [11:22] <annevk> yeah, that's one advantage
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  216. # [12:16] * Hixie deploys his spec annotation script onto the actual spec without much testing
  217. # [12:20] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("brre")
  218. # [12:23] <Dashiva> Hixie: 0 is nothing, wait until you encounter the ones around the 12029 range :)
  219. # [12:25] <Hixie> yeah but there was no reason for it
  220. # [12:25] <Hixie> the error disappeared shortly afterwards and i haven't been able to reproduce it
  221. # [12:26] <Hixie> i really need to write my own preprocessor for the html5 script
  222. # [12:26] <Hixie> bert's script is becoming painfully slow
  223. # [12:27] * Quits: mpt (i=mpt@nat/canonical/x-21c06ccc7f59b799) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  224. # [12:28] <annevk> please make it generic
  225. # [12:28] <annevk> having a public version of the CSS spec generator that is open source would be cool
  226. # [12:31] * Hixie is still waiting for bert's script to respond
  227. # [12:31] <Hixie> weird
  228. # [12:31] <Hixie> doesn't normally take THIS long
  229. # [12:32] <annevk> it doesn't work for me
  230. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> Hixie, annevk - there's apparently a problem right now with a java process eating up all the cpu on cgi.w3.org
  231. # [12:36] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-173-6.cable.telstraclear.net)
  232. # [12:37] <Hixie> ok
  233. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> btw, I think Bert's script has a dependencies on other tools he's writeen
  234. # [12:37] <Hixie> well then i'll deploy the annotation stuff while i'm asleep
  235. # [12:37] * Hixie tells his script to wait 4 hours then regen the spec
  236. # [12:37] <Hixie> bed time
  237. # [12:37] <Hixie> nn
  238. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> night
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  241. # [12:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: <footer> allows inline-level content per spec
  242. # [13:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: interesting. has it always been that way?
  243. # [13:03] <zcorpan> yees
  244. # [13:03] <zcorpan> s/e//
  245. # [13:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. fixed locally
  246. # [13:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: should i point that out on the list as well?
  247. # [13:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that would help, I think
  248. # [13:07] <hsivonen> I'm pushing out the change now
  249. # [13:08] <zcorpan> ok
  250. # [13:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: fix deployed
  251. # [13:13] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IRI checking changes deployed
  252. # [13:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: nice
  253. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - sweet
  254. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> top-secret HTML5 version of the HTML WG home page now validates
  255. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/5.html
  256. # [13:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: <!DOCTYPE html>
  257. # [13:17] <hsivonen> <html lang=en xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml>
  258. # [13:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that's weird
  259. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - it's generated from XHTML source
  260. # [13:18] <hsivonen> ah
  261. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> and conformant
  262. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> if weird
  263. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> I doubt Dan would go for the idea of doing it the other way around
  264. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> that is, maintaining source in HTML and generating the XHTML from that
  265. # [13:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sure, it makes sense to maintain the source as XHTML
  266. # [13:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I just didn't realize that you were doing that
  267. # [13:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'd expect an HTML5 serializer to drop xmlns
  268. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> html5lib parse.py util doesn't drop it a least
  269. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> I think it would make sense if it did, though
  270. # [13:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: in the Validator.nu parser, dropping it is configurable
  271. # [13:21] <annevk> you got to like what it does now :D
  272. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> heh
  273. # [13:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: which shows that allowing the xmlns isn't low-cost, as it had the cost of implementing that configurability
  274. # [13:22] <hsivonen> s/low-cost/no-cost/
  275. # [13:22] <MikeSmith> true that
  276. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - anyway, no longer any XSLT output method=html there. I just uses html5lib now
  277. # [13:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: great
  278. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> plus some sed postprocessing to add linebreaks for prettification purposes
  279. # [13:33] <hsivonen> annevk: is step #3 at http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest/#text-response-entity-body consistent with reality? shouldn't you override the XML normative reference to RFC 3023?
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  281. # [13:34] <zcorpan> how about fixing rfc 3023? :)
  282. # [13:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: feel free to try
  283. # [13:36] <zcorpan> at some point i might
  284. # [13:36] <zcorpan> try that is
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  288. # [14:10] * Philip` wonders what is a useful tool if you have thirty minutes to prepare a five minute presentation
  289. # [14:10] * annevk is doing that now using HTML + some CSS
  290. # [14:12] <zcorpan> there is an opera show generator somewhere, though i don't know where and google seems to point at 404s :(
  291. # [14:12] <Philip`> Also I have no idea what computer I can use so it might be stuck with IE
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  306. # [15:17] <Dashiva> Oh hey, cod@type got brought up again...
  307. # [15:19] <hendry> annevk: just looking at http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control So if the server responds with: Access-Control: allow <hello-world.invalid>, why would a request from evil-world.invalid obey that header?
  308. # [15:20] <Dashiva> As I understand it, it's not up to evil-world to decide. The browser does that before it serves responses
  309. # [15:20] <Dashiva> s/browser/UA/
  310. # [15:21] <hendry> you mean the UA that evil-world.invalid is using?
  311. # [15:23] <Dashiva> I'm not sure why it would
  312. # [15:24] <Dashiva> Any UA can send requests anywhere as it is. Some of them use restrictions (e.g. no cross-domain XHR). Access-control lets these restrictions have exceptions
  313. # [15:25] <hendry> I am having trouble visualising this. Is there some diagram I wonder.
  314. # [15:26] <hendry> So for UAs that are restricted (some policy?), Access-control is a way of defining some "safe sites"? Is that what you are saying Dashiva ?
  315. # [15:26] <Dashiva> Yes
  316. # [15:27] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  317. # [15:27] <Dashiva> Flash has a similar thing, if you're familiar with that
  318. # [15:27] <hendry> Dashiva: no i'm not
  319. # [15:28] <hendry> Dashiva: I wonder if Flash's security model is any good. and documented
  320. # [15:29] <hsivonen> hendry: you run a trusted UA inside your firewall
  321. # [15:29] <hsivonen> hendry: your trusted UA makes the decision whether the script from evil.invalid gets to talk with the servers on the inside of your network perimeter
  322. # [15:33] <hendry> ok, thanks for the explanation
  323. # [15:34] <hendry> i distantly recall that IE had some sort of privacy control features: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/ie6/using/howto/privacy/config.mspx
  324. # [15:34] <hendry> i think it was some standard even WRT privacy policies
  325. # [15:35] <hendry> i can't see anything in FF similar. or am i looking in the wrong place
  326. # [15:36] <hendry> ah P3P
  327. # [15:37] <hendry> anyone know what's happening with http://www.w3.org/P3P/ ? is it dead? is it used? does it have a future?
  328. # [15:37] <hsivonen> is P3P actually used or was it just a distraction for shaking off the FTC regulators?
  329. # [15:38] <hendry> heh
  330. # [15:39] <hsivonen> Facebook shows that industry self-regulation isn't working
  331. # [15:39] * Joins: webben (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-181b1f271be88cac)
  332. # [15:39] <hendry> hsivonen: why's that?
  333. # [15:39] * hendry logs into FB :)
  334. # [15:40] <hsivonen> hendry: Beacon
  335. # [15:42] <hendry> ok, ummm.. is there some blog entry explaining this all? What are you saying? They have not regulated people privacy to your requirements?
  336. # [15:42] <Dashiva> privacy doesn't exist on facebook
  337. # [15:43] <hendry> tbh i like their controls
  338. # [15:43] <hendry> i think a lot people (not just me) are fooled into a false sense of security :)
  339. # [15:44] <hendry> Dashiva: surely they have some limits. Privacy isn't boolean
  340. # [15:45] <Dashiva> Sure, you have privacy from other users.
  341. # [15:46] <hendry> But not from the sysops? Is that what you are saying?
  342. # [15:48] <Dashiva> Just read up on beacon :)
  343. # [15:49] <hsivonen> hendry: http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/2007/11/27/SomeThoughtsOnTheFacebookBeacon.aspx
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  351. # [16:27] <hendry> just looking at FF3. it also doesn't seem to have a notion of a trusted zone. So how does the FF UA know it's in a trusted zone?
  352. # [16:33] <hsivonen> hendry: do you mean you'd like to give chrome access to certain http URIs?
  353. # [16:42] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  354. # [16:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: the HTML5 spec gives me an unresponsive script sheet in Firefox
  355. # [16:51] <hendry> hsivonen: well, I assume when you talk about a trusted UA in a firewall. Mustn't the UA be configured as to what to trust as a start point?
  356. # [16:51] <hsivonen> hendry: no. that's the point of the access-control spec
  357. # [16:52] <hsivonen> hendry: the servers tell what other servers they trust
  358. # [16:52] <hendry> ok, so the UA goes to a web site that returns those access-control headers
  359. # [16:52] <hsivonen> hendry: and presumably your inside firewall servers wouldn't say they their data is OK to leak to outside of firewall servers
  360. # [16:53] <hsivonen> hendry: the idea is that a site can control what other sites its data can be leaked to
  361. # [16:54] <hendry> Ok
  362. # [16:56] <hendry> and the UA enforces the policies right? so you need a "trusted UA" right? a UA that will obey these access control statements
  363. # [16:56] <hsivonen> hendry: yes
  364. # [16:57] <hendry> how can a web site be sure the UA accessing it will properly enforce it's access control rules?
  365. # [16:57] <hsivonen> hendry: they can't
  366. # [16:57] <hsivonen> hendry: by default XSS leaks are not allowed
  367. # [16:58] <hendry> you mean same origin stuff implemented on browsers? yeah, but there are ways of getting around that?
  368. # [16:59] <hsivonen> hendry: access-control is about letting sites relax same-origin
  369. # [17:03] <hendry> though aren't there well known ways around same-origin cross-site limitations? perhaps these holes will be closed mind.
  370. # [17:03] <hsivonen> hendry: in general, if a script from site A can read data from site B without cooperation from site B, that's a bug
  371. # [17:04] <hsivonen> hendry: there are already ways for a script at site A to issue GET and POST requests to site B without the cooperation of site B
  372. # [17:04] <hsivonen> hendry: but that's different from reading the responses
  373. # [17:07] <hsivonen> hendry: what kind of ways around same same origin you had in mind?
  374. # [17:07] * Quits: webben (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-181b1f271be88cac) (Connection timed out)
  375. # [17:08] <hendry> hsivonen: i did something the other day
  376. # [17:08] <hendry> which created a <script> tag and called in a JS from another site
  377. # [17:08] <hendry> i am not too sure if that is considered a same-origin hack
  378. # [17:09] <hendry> i think jquery does something similar with .load() or something like that
  379. # [17:09] <hsivonen> hendry: yeah, there's a hole if the remote script file embodies sensitive data
  380. # [17:10] <hendry> hsivonen: not too sure what is meant by your "reading the responses" line
  381. # [17:10] <hsivonen> hendry: which is a dumb thing for a script to do
  382. # [17:12] <hsivonen> hendry: I mean the script reading the contents of an HTTP request to another site in a way that it can send back to its own server
  383. # [17:14] <hendry> i need diagrams to explain some thoughts i have easily.
  384. # [17:15] <hendry> heh
  385. # [17:20] * hendry just orders a X61... now i am thinking a tablet would have been useful after all :)
  386. # [17:20] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  387. # [17:21] <Dashiva> heh
  388. # [17:23] <hendry> i'll be in San Francisco next week. I think I'll buy a wacom bamboo tablet. I hope it'll work in Debian.
  389. # [17:25] <Dashiva> http://dashiva.net/test/access.jpg
  390. # [17:25] <Dashiva> Does that help?
  391. # [17:30] <hendry> Dashiva: You need Access-Control: allow <good.example.org>
  392. # [17:30] <hendry> on resource.example.com, right?
  393. # [17:32] <Dashiva> yes
  394. # [17:33] <hendry> Dashiva: ok, it did help. wtf did you draw that in btw? :)
  395. # [17:33] <Dashiva> mspaint, what else? :)
  396. # [17:34] <Philip`> You should have used CanvasPaint
  397. # [17:34] <hendry> looks like dos paint
  398. # [17:34] <Philip`> (or SVG)
  399. # [17:35] <hendry> yes, canvas+svg need to get out there
  400. # [17:43] <hendry> still thinking here
  401. # [17:43] <hendry> this access-control: stuff is done by web sites
  402. # [17:43] <hendry> surely a web site user should be more in control
  403. # [17:44] <hendry> or is the web site supposed to provide an interface for the user to enter which sites data can be shared with
  404. # [17:44] <hendry> for the web site in turn to generate the right access-control headers
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  407. # [17:48] <Dashiva> hendry: It can be done in headers, but also with PIs if the data is XML
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  409. # [17:51] <csarven> is it appropriate for all documents on a site use the same h1? should h1 be reserved for heading that is specific to that document?
  410. # [17:52] <csarven> if the site is called 'Foo', should all documents on that site use 'Foo' in <h1> or would you reserve h1 for things like 'Welcome to Foo', 'About Foo'... and perhaps using 'Foo' in <address> only
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  419. # [19:12] <bradee-oh> Hixie: multipage version of HTML5 currently MIA?
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  431. # [20:27] <Hixie> SPEC NOW HAS ANNOTATION MECHANISM
  432. # [20:27] <Hixie> er
  433. # [20:27] <Hixie> mascaps
  434. # [20:27] <Hixie> miscaps
  435. # [20:27] <Hixie> bbiab
  436. # [20:28] <Dashiva> multipage is till MIA, it seems
  437. # [20:29] <Dashiva> *still
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  444. # [20:59] <Hixie> huh, weird
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  446. # [21:06] <aroben> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ seems troubled
  447. # [21:07] <aroben> Hixie: annotation stuff is very cool though
  448. # [21:08] <aroben> Hixie: I guess it's impossible to mark an implementation as "pass" without a testsuite first
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  450. # [21:14] <Philip`> Does non-native support count?
  451. # [21:15] <Philip`> (e.g. Excanvas)
  452. # [21:15] <Philip`> If so, who decides which non-native implementation should be counted?
  453. # [21:19] <Philip`> Hixie: If I middle-click on the show-history link, it doesn't warn me that it's broken
  454. # [21:21] <Hixie> no
  455. # [21:21] <Hixie> oh, interesting
  456. # [21:21] <Hixie> will fix once i have the multipage thing done
  457. # [21:21] <Hixie> still can't work out why that's broken
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  459. # [21:22] <Philip`> Hixie: Double-click to edit is not intuitive
  460. # [21:23] <Philip`> (An "edit" link would be more obvious)
  461. # [21:24] <Philip`> It's not obvious what the "tests" or "demos" fields are meant to contain, at least when looking at an empty one
  462. # [21:26] <Philip`> "Section status: Widely implemented" seems an odd option, since some features are widely implemented at the same time as the spec for them is a first draft (particularly when it's specifying old unstandardised features)
  463. # [21:29] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  464. # [21:29] <Hixie> there actually is an edit link, it's display:none
  465. # [21:29] <Hixie> it looks ugly :-)
  466. # [21:29] <Hixie> but i can readd it i guess
  467. # [21:30] <Hixie> though if you know that double-click adds, it's not a far jump to double-click to edit
  468. # [21:31] * Philip` turns stylesheets off, and sees the edit link now
  469. # [21:31] <Philip`> The editing UI is not so good without stylesheets, though
  470. # [21:31] <Philip`> Hixie: Oh, double-click adds?
  471. # [21:31] <Hixie> yeah
  472. # [21:32] <Philip`> The double-click to add behaviour is not intuitive ;-)
  473. # [21:32] <Hixie> yeah
  474. # [21:32] <Hixie> not sure how to do it better
  475. # [21:33] <Philip`> What is the scope of annotations? (Are they on <h3>s or something?)
  476. # [21:33] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  477. # [21:34] <Hixie> they look at whereever you double click, and find the first element above it to have an id
  478. # [21:34] <Hixie> which will typically be an <hx>
  479. # [21:34] <Hixie> first element child of body
  480. # [21:36] * Philip` doesn't know if it'd be too distracting to have a little edit link beside each possible annotatable location
  481. # [21:37] <Philip`> s/edit/add/
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  484. # [21:40] <Hixie> Philip`: i think having it non-intuitive is ok, the people who should be editing it can be told what the ui is
  485. # [21:40] <Hixie> it's not hard to explain
  486. # [21:40] <Hixie> multipage is back up
  487. # [21:40] <Hixie> but for some reason the annotations aren't showing up
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  489. # [21:44] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  490. # [22:00] <Hixie> Philip`: as far as i can tell, the middle click of a link does give the warning
  491. # [22:00] <Hixie> well, error
  492. # [22:06] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  493. # [22:08] <Philip`> Hixie: Not in Opera 9.2
  494. # [22:08] <Hixie> probably a bug in opera
  495. # [22:08] <Philip`> (Also the Safari icon doesn't work in Opera)
  496. # [22:11] <Hixie> if you have any suggestions for changes to the section status options, let me know
  497. # [22:11] <Hixie> afk lunch
  498. # [22:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: it would help if the annotation UI highlighted the part of spec being annotated. I can't figure the scope of an annotation
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  516. # Session Close: Sat Dec 08 00:00:00 2007

The end :)