/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-12-10 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 10 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:11] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  4. # [00:20] * Joins: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-24-58-3-19.twcny.res.rr.com)
  5. # [00:23] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  6. # [00:45] * Quits: weinig|bbl (n=weinig@c-71-198-185-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  7. # [00:49] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@140.80-202-68.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  8. # [00:55] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)")
  9. # [00:59] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  10. # [01:26] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  11. # [01:31] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  12. # [01:48] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@87.102.10.86) ("ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  13. # [01:48] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  14. # [01:50] * Quits: mpt_ (n=mpt@ip-81-1-122-118.cust.homechoice.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  15. # [01:52] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  16. # [02:16] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  17. # [02:22] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
  18. # [02:59] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-185-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  19. # [03:05] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-24-6-159-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  20. # [03:10] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  21. # [03:24] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-185-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  22. # [03:29] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-185-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  23. # [03:33] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  24. # [04:24] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  25. # [04:29] * Joins: markp (n=markp@adsl-227-105-245.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  26. # [04:29] <G0k> hgey all
  27. # [04:29] * Parts: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-24-58-3-19.twcny.res.rr.com)
  28. # [04:29] * Joins: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-24-58-3-19.twcny.res.rr.com)
  29. # [04:31] <G0k> is there a way to see the history of changes to an html 5 spec section?
  30. # [04:44] * Parts: kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  31. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> G0k - no, not for a specific section, afaik
  32. # [05:05] <G0k> oki, thanks
  33. # [05:05] <Dashiva> You could blame your way through it with svn, but that's a hassle :)
  34. # [05:19] <othermaciej> if you have a specific question, people here might know the answer
  35. # [05:21] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  36. # [05:22] <G0k> well in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-event0.html
  37. # [05:22] <G0k> the MessageEvent interface
  38. # [05:22] <G0k> i seem to recall the source being a document
  39. # [05:22] <G0k> now it's a window
  40. # [05:22] <G0k> is this a change or am i misremembering?
  41. # [05:22] <othermaciej> it was changed to work on Window
  42. # [05:22] <othermaciej> discussion is in the whatwg archive
  43. # [05:23] <othermaciej> basically so exceptions to same-origin policy can all be a the Window level
  44. # [05:24] <G0k> so how does that affect like..iframes?
  45. # [05:25] <G0k> if an iframe posts a message to its parent, it sees it as coming from the same window but a different domain?
  46. # [05:25] <othermaciej> iframes have a different Window than their parent
  47. # [05:25] <G0k> oh
  48. # [05:25] <G0k> heh sorry my dom skillz are a little weak
  49. # [05:27] <othermaciej> G0k: this part of the spec explains in detail how Window and Document fit together and work with frames: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-windows.html#windows
  50. # [05:31] * Quits: markp (n=markp@adsl-227-105-245.rmo.bellsouth.net) ("Leaving")
  51. # [05:33] * Joins: heycam` (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  52. # [05:35] * Quits: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-24-58-3-19.twcny.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  53. # [05:42] * Joins: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-24-58-3-19.twcny.res.rr.com)
  54. # [05:59] * Quits: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-24-58-3-19.twcny.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  55. # [06:00] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca/")
  56. # [06:10] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-24-6-159-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  57. # [06:20] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  58. # [06:23] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@209.79.152.167) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  59. # [06:23] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@209.79.152.167)
  60. # [06:24] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  61. # [06:38] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-24-6-159-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  62. # [06:49] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-24-6-159-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  63. # [06:53] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  64. # [07:28] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  65. # [07:41] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  66. # [07:42] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  67. # [07:52] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-200-128.pool.emnet.ne.jp)
  68. # [08:02] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  69. # [08:05] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Remote closed the connection)
  70. # [08:08] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@people.mozilla.com)
  71. # [08:14] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  72. # [08:33] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  73. # [08:51] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@64.81.48.145)
  74. # [09:07] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)")
  75. # [09:18] * Joins: OmegaJunior (n=ZJr@a82-95-48-162.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  76. # [09:27] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-200-128.pool.emnet.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  77. # [09:31] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  78. # [09:41] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  79. # [09:52] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  80. # [10:00] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-6-66.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  81. # [10:07] * Quits: deltab (n=deltab@82-36-30-34.cable.ubr02.smal.blueyonder.co.uk) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  82. # [10:07] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-6-66.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  83. # [10:09] * Joins: deltab (n=deltab@82-36-30-34.cable.ubr02.smal.blueyonder.co.uk)
  84. # [10:17] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  85. # [10:25] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.123.27.172)
  86. # [11:11] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  87. # [11:13] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  88. # [11:31] * annevk still isn't really convinced by the postMessage change
  89. # [11:31] <hsivonen> annevk: do current impls do what you require?
  90. # [11:33] <annevk> Opera has the only implementation
  91. # [11:34] <annevk> Mozilla is implementing and wants changes because then all security exceptions supposedly are on Window
  92. # [11:34] <hsivonen> annevk: oh is this about cross-doc? I thought you were talking about XHR body on GET
  93. # [11:35] <annevk> a) that patch has gone nowhere and b) I'm not convinced there are no exceptions left on Document
  94. # [11:35] <annevk> oh, I'm not sure about that one
  95. # [11:35] * annevk hopes to avoid editing the specification
  96. # [11:45] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@87.102.10.86)
  97. # [12:18] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@ip-81-1-122-118.cust.homechoice.net)
  98. # [12:25] <othermaciej> annevk: in WebKit, it's definitely the nearl all security exceptions are on Window and none are on Document
  99. # [12:26] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
  100. # [12:26] <othermaciej> (actually I guess it is fair to say that all exceptions are on Window but there are a few security checks in other places)
  101. # [12:37] <annevk> ok
  102. # [12:37] <annevk> I did get claims that .open() and .close() and such had similar things, but maybe that's something else
  103. # [12:37] <annevk> hmm
  104. # [12:44] <othermaciej> window.open() and window.close() are allowed from any other window
  105. # [12:44] <othermaciej> that's not true for most Window functions or properties
  106. # [12:45] <othermaciej> in the case of Document, in WebKit at least you can't even get the document object from a window that's not same-origin
  107. # [12:45] <othermaciej> I think in Gecko you can get it, but it throws on any property access
  108. # [12:45] <annevk> document.open() must have a similar check then
  109. # [12:45] <annevk> as it can be a synonym for window.open() depending on the number of arguments
  110. # [12:46] <annevk> ah, I see
  111. # [12:46] <othermaciej> it can be a synonym but I do not think it is required for web compatibility for document.open() to ever be callable from a window with a different origin
  112. # [12:46] <othermaciej> in WebKit that's not possible because you can't even get to the document object for another window
  113. # [12:46] <annevk> right
  114. # [12:46] <annevk> hmm
  115. # [12:52] <hsivonen> does html5lib have a SAX view to the parse tree?
  116. # [13:14] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.123.27.172) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  117. # [13:53] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  118. # [13:54] <zcorpan> hello whatwg
  119. # [13:54] <othermaciej> hello zcorpan
  120. # [13:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan: hello
  121. # [13:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do you know what's happening with ARIA datatypes?
  122. # [13:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: including the use of qnames there
  123. # [13:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: and the general ugliness of XSD dependencies
  124. # [13:59] <zcorpan> hsivonen: not sure. xhtml2 wg wants curies, i think. pfwg and svgwg seem to want opaque strings, i think
  125. # [14:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: even for stuff datatype='xsd:anyURI'?
  126. # [14:01] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@ip-81-1-122-118.cust.homechoice.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  127. # [14:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: example of what that would be?
  128. # [14:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: dunno, but http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-aria-state-20071019/#datatype
  129. # [14:03] <hsivonen> interestingly, the stated datatype is string--not qname
  130. # [14:04] <hsivonen> but the prose says qname
  131. # [14:04] <hsivonen> yay
  132. # [14:04] <zcorpan> "Clearly XSD base types are simpler for the user agent to understand."
  133. # [14:05] <annevk> being a ua rep: no
  134. # [14:06] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  135. # [14:06] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  136. # [14:07] <hsivonen> I wonder if it is too late to bring in the WF2 datatypes instead
  137. # [14:07] <annevk> where do they use datatypes?
  138. # [14:08] <annevk> ah, I see
  139. # [14:08] <othermaciej> zcorpan: they must have an interesting theoretical model of "the user agent"
  140. # [14:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: btw, what's the case-(in)sensitivity story for ARIA in text/html? is in going to be lower-case only?
  141. # [14:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: the values?
  142. # [14:17] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@ip-81-1-122-118.cust.homechoice.net)
  143. # [14:41] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@ip-81-1-122-118.cust.homechoice.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  144. # [14:53] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@ip-81-1-122-118.cust.homechoice.net)
  145. # [15:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: e.g. role='foo'
  146. # [15:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is foo case-sensitive?
  147. # [15:10] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.123.27.172)
  148. # [15:15] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@ip-81-1-122-118.cust.homechoice.net)
  149. # [15:20] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@ip-81-1-122-118.cust.homechoice.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  150. # [15:31] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@81-5-133-33.static.nfwebsolutions.com)
  151. # [15:31] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@81-5-133-33.static.nfwebsolutions.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  152. # [15:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i'd say yes
  153. # [15:31] <zcorpan> but i'm not sure if it's defined anywhere
  154. # [15:32] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@81-5-133-33.static.nfwebsolutions.com)
  155. # [15:32] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@81-5-133-33.static.nfwebsolutions.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  156. # [15:32] <annevk> i'd say no
  157. # [15:32] <zcorpan> annevk: why?
  158. # [15:32] <annevk> for consistency with other enumerated attributes
  159. # [15:33] <zcorpan> but role isn't really enumerated
  160. # [15:33] <zcorpan> it's more like class=""
  161. # [15:33] <annevk> it has a fixed amount of known values
  162. # [15:34] * zcorpan finds a login button in the spec
  163. # [15:34] <annevk> i agree it's slightly different though given that it has fallback
  164. # [15:34] <zcorpan> yeah
  165. # [15:34] <zcorpan> case-sensitive is simpler
  166. # [15:36] <annevk> hmm, the annotating doesn't work in Opera
  167. # [15:38] <annevk> why is event-source considered for removal?
  168. # [15:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: based on specs, I'd say case-sensitive as well
  169. # [15:40] <hsivonen> annevk: changing the case-senstivity of role from whatever Firefox does is probably counter-productive
  170. # [15:41] <hsivonen> annevk: I haven't tested what it does here
  171. # [15:42] <zcorpan> hmm, does anyone else see the safari icon? e.g. at <canvas>
  172. # [15:43] <Philip`> zcorpan: The login button is for editing annotations
  173. # [15:43] <Philip`> zcorpan: I see that icon in Firefox 2, but not in Opera 9.2
  174. # [15:43] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  175. # [15:43] <hsivonen> hmm. I've reached some kind of zen state. I feel no urge to reply to the <xmp> thread
  176. # [15:43] <zcorpan> Philip`: ok
  177. # [15:44] <dglazkov> hsivonen, aka "apathy"?
  178. # [15:44] <annevk> hsivonen, like selectors, media queries are not "CSS"
  179. # [15:44] <hsivonen> dglazkov: if you want to spin it negatively :-)
  180. # [15:45] * Philip` hopes the <xmp> discussion can avoid collapsing into an XHTML discussion
  181. # [15:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: Fail.
  182. # [15:45] <Philip`> It hasn't collapsed that way yet, though it's on the edge :-)
  183. # [15:45] * dglazkov doesn't like being negative
  184. # [15:45] <dglazkov> zen it is
  185. # [15:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: Oh, I can see into the future. You can't?
  186. # [15:47] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@81-5-133-33.static.nfwebsolutions.com)
  187. # [15:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I see the safari icon
  188. # [15:52] <hsivonen> does the disclosure triangle in spec annotations work in any browser?
  189. # [15:53] <Philip`> hsivonen: Disclosure triangle? I thought the triangle was just pointing at the the attached section (except in Firefox where it gets drawn in the wrong place)
  190. # [15:53] <hsivonen> Philip`: oh.
  191. # [15:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: well, it's a usability bug then
  192. # [15:54] * gsnedders still wants to know how he had an account without ever requesting one
  193. # [15:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: because I though it was a broken disclosure triangle
  194. # [15:54] <Philip`> hsivonen: I could be wrong, of course :-)
  195. # [15:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: your explanation makes sense considering the safari rendering
  196. # [15:55] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@c-24-61-15-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  197. # [15:55] <gsnedders> I always get, "Failed to save data: OK", when trying to save :\
  198. # [15:56] <hsivonen> gsnedders: the test data is broken in Firefox 2
  199. # [15:57] <hsivonen> gsnedders: you need a trunk build, it seems
  200. # [15:57] <gsnedders> Doesn't work in Saf3, either
  201. # [15:57] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  202. # [15:58] <Philip`> Somebody ought to do something about all this non-interoperability
  203. # [15:58] <hsivonen> gsnedders: in Safari 3 it works at least a bit more than in Firefox 2
  204. # [15:58] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  205. # [15:58] <gsnedders> Philip`: EMCAScript 5?
  206. # [15:58] <gsnedders> DOM5?
  207. # [15:58] <annevk> I would like to know what causes the breakage in Opera
  208. # [15:58] <hsivonen> I wonder if this is the Acid3 test
  209. # [15:58] <gsnedders> does it work in _anything_ except Fx3?
  210. # [15:59] <OmegaJunior> I thought ES4 was in the works.... ES5 doesn't exist yet.
  211. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> annevk - maybe Hallvord Steen could figure out pretty quickly
  212. # [16:00] <gsnedders> OmegaJunior: peh. we have XHTML5 while XHTML2 is in the works!
  213. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> Is something supposed to happen if I click on the triangle in an annotation
  214. # [16:08] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Probably not
  215. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> k
  216. # [16:08] <Philip`> MikeSmith: It seems it's just rendered differently in some browsers so that it no longer makes sense
  217. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> Philip` - ah, yeah, I see now. In Opera and Safari, it renders on the right edge of the annotation box
  218. # [16:16] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  219. # [16:16] <annevk> it's displayed on the wrong place in Firefox
  220. # [16:17] <annevk> oh
  221. # [16:34] * Quits: mpt_ (n=mpt@ip-81-1-122-118.cust.homechoice.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  222. # [16:43] * Quits: OmegaJunior (n=ZJr@a82-95-48-162.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
  223. # [16:43] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@c-24-61-15-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  224. # [16:51] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.123.27.172) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  225. # [16:58] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com)
  226. # [16:58] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com) (Client Quit)
  227. # [17:00] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  228. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> annevk - are you running parallels or vmware on your Mac?
  229. # [17:10] * Joins: phsiao (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-912e24eb642ec49d)
  230. # [17:13] <annevk> neither, I think
  231. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> annevk - I just mention because you said you were using Ubuntu also
  232. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> or some Linux
  233. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> you know if you use Parallels you can run OSX, Linux, Windows on the same machine
  234. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> without needing to reboot
  235. # [17:19] <annevk> you can also use two laptops :)
  236. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> sure, two is better than one of course
  237. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> and three would be even better than two
  238. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> you could hire a valet to help you carry them around
  239. # [17:21] <annevk> actually, I have three
  240. # [17:21] <annevk> although one is from zcorpan
  241. # [17:22] <MikeSmith> you and zcorpan could maybe share a valet
  242. # [17:22] <MikeSmith> alternating days or something
  243. # [17:23] * Quits: bradee-oh (n=bradeeoh@web7.webfaction.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  244. # [17:26] <Lachy> VMWare is better than Parallels. That's what I use on my Mac
  245. # [17:27] <gsnedders> yeah, that's what I concluded too.
  246. # [17:28] * Philip` just uses Boot Camp and almost never boots OS X
  247. # [17:30] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  248. # [17:52] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@209.79.152.167)
  249. # [17:58] * Joins: aroben (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  250. # [17:59] * Joins: aroben_ (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  251. # [17:59] * Quits: aroben_ (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  252. # [18:07] * Joins: bradee-oh (n=bradeeoh@web7.webfaction.com)
  253. # [18:15] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  254. # [18:16] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  255. # [18:17] * Quits: grimboy (n=grimboy@85-211-247-175.dsl.pipex.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  256. # [18:20] * Joins: grimboy (n=grimboy@85-211-254-200.dsl.pipex.com)
  257. # [18:38] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-185-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  258. # [18:43] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  259. # [18:54] * Joins: kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  260. # [19:06] <annevk> hmm, people use CSS interop bugs as CSS hacks
  261. # [19:07] <annevk> guess there's nothing new there
  262. # [19:07] <othermaciej> isn't that the definition of a CSS hack?
  263. # [19:07] <othermaciej> (except that ideally you should use the failure case as the hack trigger)
  264. # [19:08] <annevk> it's not yet clear here what the hack is and what the failure
  265. # [19:09] * annevk was just sending some results of interop testing to www-style
  266. # [19:09] * annevk wonders when someone brings accessibility to the <xmp> discussion
  267. # [19:15] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@76.191.129.51)
  268. # [19:24] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com)
  269. # [19:24] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com) (Client Quit)
  270. # [19:37] <annevk> hmm, I don't agree either with not changing the method names because of some Java API
  271. # [19:37] <annevk> grmbl
  272. # [19:38] <othermaciej> especially since the Java API was made by copying an Editor's Draft, with the agreement that it would not it being a work in progress and subject to change
  273. # [19:39] <othermaciej> now they ask not to change
  274. # [19:39] <othermaciej> that doesn't seem right
  275. # [19:39] <annevk> lengthComputable...
  276. # [19:41] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  277. # [19:44] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@76.191.129.51)
  278. # [19:51] * Joins: grimeboy (n=grimboy@85-211-254-241.dsl.pipex.com)
  279. # [19:59] * Joins: Oeighty_ (n=polx@ip-118-90-24-157.xdsl.xnet.co.nz)
  280. # [20:05] <annevk> ah
  281. # [20:06] <annevk> people are still doing 2DGraphics in Java
  282. # [20:06] <annevk> http://www.cycloloco.com/shadowmaker/
  283. # [20:06] <annevk> if only shadows were implemented
  284. # [20:06] <annevk> we could <canvas>ify it
  285. # [20:06] * Quits: grimboy (n=grimboy@85-211-254-200.dsl.pipex.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  286. # [20:12] <Philip`> <canvas> shadows wouldn't help much when you don't want the shadow to be exactly the same shape as the object
  287. # [20:13] <Philip`> You can do Gaussian blurring with canvas easily, but I can't think of an easy way to convert an image to greyscale
  288. # [20:14] <Philip`> You can't do shears in most implementations either
  289. # [20:17] * Quits: Oeighty (n=polx@ip-118-90-24-157.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Connection timed out)
  290. # [20:17] * Joins: inimino (n=inimino@c-75-71-88-233.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  291. # [20:18] <Philip`> Oh, actually, maybe greyscale is easy, by drawing a grey rectangle with destination-in
  292. # [20:20] <Philip`> Oh, actually, no current released implementation can do shearing
  293. # [20:21] <Philip`> (unless you fake it with rotations and scales)
  294. # [20:22] <Philip`> Anyway, you should implement canvas shadows anyway ;-)
  295. # [20:31] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  296. # [20:32] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@ip-81-1-117-205.cust.homechoice.net)
  297. # [20:38] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  298. # [20:39] <annevk> heh
  299. # [20:45] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  300. # [20:45] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  301. # [20:48] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.109.51)
  302. # [20:56] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@ip-81-1-117-205.cust.homechoice.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  303. # [20:57] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  304. # [21:02] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@ip-81-1-117-205.cust.homechoice.net)
  305. # [21:10] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  306. # [21:22] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  307. # [21:40] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  308. # [22:07] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@ip-81-1-117-205.cust.homechoice.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  309. # [22:13] * Joins: anne-mac (n=annevk@88.80-202-68.nextgentel.com)
  310. # [22:20] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  311. # [22:23] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@ip-81-1-117-205.cust.homechoice.net)
  312. # [22:26] <anne-mac> keeping globalStorage & co makes some sense given that SQL is asynchronous
  313. # [22:26] <anne-mac> I guess that will satisfy most requirements
  314. # [22:26] <anne-mac> btw, othermaciej, did you get around contacting the Firefox guys about changing the design of globalStorage?
  315. # [22:26] <anne-mac> especially its broken security model
  316. # [22:27] <anne-mac> maybe that can be changed in time
  317. # [22:36] <othermaciej> anne-mac: I wasn't planning to contact them, I think Hixie was
  318. # [22:36] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  319. # [22:37] <anne-mac> oh
  320. # [22:37] * Joins: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-24-58-3-19.twcny.res.rr.com)
  321. # [22:40] <anne-mac> Hixie, you around?
  322. # [22:41] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  323. # [22:43] <anne-mac> interesting, IE8 will have a new rendering engine
  324. # [22:44] <anne-mac> although on the other hand it's sort of problematic if that's going to be opt-in
  325. # [22:45] <Lfe> anne-mac: url? :-)
  326. # [22:45] <anne-mac> depending on what authors code againts, of course
  327. # [22:45] <anne-mac> http://www.molly.com/2007/12/05/conversation-with-bill-gates-about-ie8-and-microsoft-transparency/
  328. # [22:46] <anne-mac> "MOLLY HOLZSCHLAG: But they’re not letting people talk about it. I do realize that there is a new engine, "
  329. # [22:46] <Lachy> anne-mac, yeah, Chris mentioned that at web directions 2 months ago
  330. # [22:46] <anne-mac> apparently this has been announced earlier at some conference
  331. # [22:46] <anne-mac> right
  332. # [22:47] <Lfe> Well, by new - do they mean new from scratch or just a "version bump"?
  333. # [22:47] <gsnedders> What I think is really interesting is whether it'll replace the current standards mode or not.
  334. # [22:47] <othermaciej> Chris has announced that they are working on a new engine
  335. # [22:48] <othermaciej> where "engine" is pretty strictly restricted to layout, not a full rewrite of everything
  336. # [22:48] <gsnedders> othermaciej: how much of the layout?
  337. # [22:48] <Lachy> I wonder if they've tried to implement the HTML5 parsing algorithm in the new engine
  338. # [22:49] <othermaciej> I dunno
  339. # [22:49] <othermaciej> http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/10/01/wds07-bonus-feature-chris-wilson-microsoft/
  340. # [22:49] <Lachy> though given that we're yet to get any significant feedback from MS about the spec, it doesn't seem too likely
  341. # [22:50] <anne-mac> MS has been pretty much "inactive" everywhere apart from CSS
  342. # [22:50] <gsnedders> I guess even the layout itself is where a lot of the major bugs are.
  343. # [22:50] <othermaciej> layout is where one category of major bugs are
  344. # [22:50] <anne-mac> and even there...
  345. # [22:50] <anne-mac> one category :)
  346. # [22:50] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  347. # [22:51] <gsnedders> I mean, is the CSS parsing that bad? That probably depends on the border between parsing and layout.
  348. # [22:51] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@ip-81-1-117-205.cust.homechoice.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  349. # [22:51] * gsnedders doesn't even mention the DOM
  350. # [22:53] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  351. # [22:53] <othermaciej> there's still significant CSS parsing bugs, and certainly CSS processing bugs
  352. # [22:53] <anne-mac> yeah
  353. # [22:54] <Hixie> bugs in IE? say it isn't so!
  354. # [22:54] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  355. # [22:54] <G0k> i gotta say i fail to understand the "don't break the web" line
  356. # [22:54] <othermaciej> not that Gecko/Presto/WebKit don't have bugs
  357. # [22:54] * Hixie is here now btw
  358. # [22:54] <G0k> they're going to have bug fixes which are going to break things, it's ridiculous to expect otherwise
  359. # [22:55] <anne-mac> Hixie, so 1) <event-source> considered for removal?! 2) annotation doesn't work anywhere... 3) ping Firefox about simplying client-side storage?
  360. # [22:55] <G0k> event-source wha?
  361. # [22:55] <othermaciej> G0k is working on implementing event-source for WebKit, so he'd probably be interested in hearing if it is considered for removal
  362. # [22:56] <anne-mac> G0k, don't worry, we'll just set up whatwg2
  363. # [22:56] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@ip-81-1-120-153.cust.homechoice.net)
  364. # [22:56] <Hixie> 1) it hasn't really had much demand either from authors or from implementors, and a number of issues have been raised suggested we should massively simplify it even if we keep it. it also seems redundant with the two-way network connection stuff and with multipart xhr. but if there really is demand, we could keep it. we just need to prove there is demand, same as any other feature.
  365. # [22:56] <Hixie> 2) elaborate?
  366. # [22:56] <Hixie> 3) yeah i should do that
  367. # [22:57] <G0k> heh well to be honest having both event-source and RemoveEventTarget seemed kinda redundant
  368. # [22:57] <othermaciej> is there a plan for multipart XHR?
  369. # [22:57] <anne-mac> firefox has an impl of that, but I don't really like it
  370. # [22:57] <Hixie> G0k: event-source and removeeventtarget are the same feature
  371. # [22:58] <G0k> heh awz
  372. # [22:58] <Hixie> anne-mac: i've heard people ask for it a lot, at least at google
  373. # [22:58] <anne-mac> Hixie, 2) it doesn't work in Opera, or Safari or stable versions of Firefox
  374. # [22:58] <Hixie> ah
  375. # [22:58] <Hixie> any idea why?
  376. # [22:59] <anne-mac> Hixie, same for event-source at Opera
  377. # [22:59] <Hixie> i don't think i used anything non-standard
  378. # [22:59] <anne-mac> not really
  379. # [22:59] <Hixie> well if there are any bugs in the code do let me know
  380. # [22:59] <anne-mac> debugging it seemed non-trivial
  381. # [22:59] <Hixie> afk bbiab
  382. # [23:00] <othermaciej> Annotation seems to work on in Safari 3 for me
  383. # [23:01] <Hixie> back
  384. # [23:01] <othermaciej> well actually I'm not sure if it is or not, since I don't know what it's supposed to look like
  385. # [23:01] <Hixie> click the login button at the top
  386. # [23:02] <anne-mac> Hixie, it doesn't make much sense to consider <event-source> for removal but not <datagrid> which is in comparison far less successful
  387. # [23:02] <G0k> how is event-source successful?
  388. # [23:02] <Hixie> oh datagrid will be removed too if nobody wants it
  389. # [23:03] <Hixie> but datagrid is much less mature and hasn't been looked at much by implementors yet
  390. # [23:03] <Hixie> and it has no alternative for authors
  391. # [23:03] <anne-mac> G0k, there's one implementation and one partial patch...
  392. # [23:03] <G0k> well two partial patches but i mean has anyone used it for anything?
  393. # [23:06] <anne-mac> editing the annotation in Safari seems to remove it
  394. # [23:07] <anne-mac> just happened to <canvas>
  395. # [23:07] <Hixie> check for js errors
  396. # [23:07] <anne-mac> G0k, there's a public chat client somewhere
  397. # [23:08] <anne-mac> Hixie, sorry, not familiar enough with Safari to get that running
  398. # [23:08] <Hixie> k
  399. # [23:08] <G0k> i guess i do feel like multipart XHR could very well eliminate 90% of the need for event source
  400. # [23:09] <G0k> even though i think the addEventSource API is about 1000x more elegant
  401. # [23:09] <gsnedders> Hixie: Saf shows no JS errors
  402. # [23:09] <Hixie> odd
  403. # [23:09] <Hixie> wonder what's going on
  404. # [23:09] <anne-mac> Opera doesn't do that either and yet it goes wrong with logging in
  405. # [23:09] <anne-mac> it's annoying
  406. # [23:10] <Hixie> what goes wrong?
  407. # [23:10] <gsnedders> anne-mac: you need the debug menu enabled (just google it) then its obvious enough in that menu
  408. # [23:10] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  409. # [23:10] <anne-mac> when you log in you get a single . instead of "Logged in as anne."
  410. # [23:10] <Hixie> odd
  411. # [23:11] <gsnedders> anne-mac: what should show that?
  412. # [23:11] <Hixie> that suggests that the login is failing without a message
  413. # [23:11] <gsnedders> anne-mac: login box?
  414. # [23:12] <Hixie> which means x.status != 200 and != 304
  415. # [23:12] <gsnedders> I get "OK." under the login button…
  416. # [23:12] <Hixie> anne-mac: reload and try again, i've changed the message that should appear
  417. # [23:12] <gsnedders> and trying to save anything results in, "Failed to save data: OK" (this is Saf 3/Mac)
  418. # [23:13] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  419. # [23:13] <Hixie> sounds like xhr bugs
  420. # [23:13] <gsnedders> now I get 403
  421. # [23:13] <Hixie> 403 means you're not logged in
  422. # [23:13] <gsnedders> "Status: Error: OK (403)."
  423. # [23:13] <Hixie> in theory
  424. # [23:13] <gsnedders> that's trying to login.
  425. # [23:13] <Hixie> wait what?
  426. # [23:13] <Hixie> how the hell are you getting 403 OX
  427. # [23:13] <Hixie> OK
  428. # [23:14] <Hixie> that's not one of the things my script sends back
  429. # [23:14] <gsnedders> I try logging in.
  430. # [23:14] <gsnedders> Oh, I get it all right :)
  431. # [23:14] <gsnedders> :P
  432. # [23:14] <Hixie> do you have a login?
  433. # [23:14] <gsnedders> Hixie: it worked in Fx3b1
  434. # [23:14] <gsnedders> see, this is why I just get other people to write JavaScript for me
  435. # [23:15] <Hixie> what's your username?
  436. # [23:15] * gsnedders stares at Philip`
  437. # [23:15] <gsnedders> Hixie: gsnedders
  438. # [23:15] <anne-mac> I get " var node = response.documentElement;" null value around that line
  439. # [23:15] <Hixie> there's no "gsnedders" user registered
  440. # [23:16] <gsnedders> then how on earth did I login in Fx3b1!?
  441. # [23:16] <Hixie> anne-mac: when doing what in what browser?
  442. # [23:16] <Hixie> gsnedders: no idea
  443. # [23:17] <Hixie> there aree 14 users registered, including 3 annes, but you're not one of them :-)
  444. # [23:17] <gsnedders> OK, now I get, "Logged in as gsnedders."
  445. # [23:17] <Hixie> now you have one :-)
  446. # [23:17] <anne-mac> Hixie, when adding an "x" to the demo field in Safari
  447. # [23:17] * anne-mac has anne, test, and test1000 registered, he thinks
  448. # [23:18] <gsnedders> Hixie: null value, line 580 of status.js trying to edit
  449. # [23:18] * anne-mac got weird messages when registering
  450. # [23:18] <Hixie> the only way that can happen is if you got a 204... hmm...
  451. # [23:18] <gsnedders> and on that note, g'nite
  452. # [23:18] <Hixie> nn
  453. # [23:18] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-135-224-200.range86-135.btcentralplus.com) ("404: Not Found")
  454. # [23:18] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@81-5-133-33.static.nfwebsolutions.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  455. # [23:19] <Hixie> i can't see any way that get-one-annotation can return a 204...
  456. # [23:19] <Hixie> unless...
  457. # [23:19] <Hixie> oh i know what's going on
  458. # [23:19] <Hixie> i bet these browsers are all caching stuff
  459. # [23:19] * Hixie adds cache-control: no-cache
  460. # [23:19] <Hixie> try now
  461. # [23:20] <Hixie> (clear your cache first)
  462. # [23:20] <Hixie> though frankly i don't understand what the browsers are caching if this helps it
  463. # [23:22] <Hixie> try now
  464. # [23:22] <Hixie> sorry
  465. # [23:22] <Hixie> had syntax error
  466. # [23:29] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  467. # [23:29] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  468. # [23:33] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64) (Client Quit)
  469. # [23:33] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  470. # [23:33] <roc> gah
  471. # [23:33] <roc> Colloquy is useless
  472. # [23:33] <G0k> yeah
  473. # [23:34] * Hixie waves his irssi banner
  474. # [23:34] <G0k> it's kinda driving me crazy
  475. # [23:34] <roc> oops wrong channel
  476. # [23:34] <Dashiva> irssi isn't cool until it starts using python for scripting, 'cuz xkcd said so
  477. # [23:34] <roc> but thanks for the support
  478. # [23:37] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  479. # [23:39] <othermaciej> Colloquy rules!
  480. # [23:39] * Quits: anne-mac (n=annevk@88.80-202-68.nextgentel.com)
  481. # [23:39] * Joins: anne-mac (n=annevk@88.80-202-68.nextgentel.com)
  482. # [23:39] <G0k> it's pretty and nice except for the fact that it has some really inexplicable bugs
  483. # [23:40] <G0k> like sometimes you join channels and the text is invisible
  484. # [23:42] <roc> right, that's what's biting me
  485. # [23:46] <Hixie> did all the people who were having problems with the annotation script go to have lunch or something? :-)
  486. # [23:46] <G0k> they gave up
  487. # [23:46] <anne-mac> i had some food
  488. # [23:46] <anne-mac> i have issues with the safari inspector thingie not showing up now
  489. # [23:47] <Philip`> They were so enthralled they forgot to return to IRC
  490. # [23:48] <Hixie> anne-mac: we can get it to work in opera if you want instead
  491. # [23:48] <Hixie> let the safari guys worry about safari :-)
  492. # [23:48] * Philip` wonders who will be the first to dare complain it doesn't work in IE
  493. # [23:49] <anne-mac> Hixie, when logging in I get "Error (0)"
  494. # [23:49] <anne-mac> in Opera
  495. # [23:49] <Hixie> in the login dialog?
  496. # [23:50] <Hixie> in an alert?
  497. # [23:50] <anne-mac> in the dialog
  498. # [23:50] <Hixie> and does it say exactly "Error (0)" or does it say "Error: (0)"?
  499. # [23:50] <anne-mac> the latter
  500. # [23:50] <anne-mac> followed by a .
  501. # [23:50] <Hixie> well then that's an opera bug. that means xhr isn't returning a sensible status code.
  502. # [23:50] <Hixie> the 0 is x.status at readystate = 4
  503. # [23:51] <anne-mac> weird
  504. # [23:51] <anne-mac> thanks though
  505. # [23:53] <Hixie> (does the xhr spec ever allow 0 in rs4?
  506. # [23:53] <Hixie> )
  507. # [23:53] <anne-mac> if http does
  508. # [23:53] <anne-mac> actually, it does
  509. # [23:53] <anne-mac> or maybe not
  510. # [23:54] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  511. # [23:54] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) (Remote closed the connection)
  512. # [23:54] <G0k> hixie: so has anything been written w/r/t multipart XHR?
  513. # [23:54] <Hixie> not to my knowledge
  514. # [23:54] <anne-mac> no, not
  515. # [23:54] <Hixie> i'm trying to let anne deal with xhr issues
  516. # [23:54] <Hixie> as i have plenty on my plate already :-)
  517. # [23:54] <G0k> anne, let's talk xhr
  518. # [23:54] <anne-mac> sure
  519. # [23:55] <Hixie> anne-mac: if it turns out to be a bug in my script, please let me know. but i have no idea what it couldf be.
  520. # [23:56] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@ip-81-1-120-153.cust.homechoice.net)
  521. # [23:56] <anne-mac> Hixie, does your script happen to use redirects on the server?
  522. # [23:57] <G0k> so it seems me like what we really want is more control over the the downloading process
  523. # [23:58] <anne-mac> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/ has most of the new stuff, but I'm still awaiting conforming implementations of XHR1
  524. # [23:59] <anne-mac> G0k, more control, how?
  525. # [23:59] * Quits: phsiao (i=shawn@nat/ibm/x-912e24eb642ec49d)
  526. # Session Close: Tue Dec 11 00:00:01 2007

The end :)