/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-12-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 14 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:17] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.230)
  4. # [00:20] <Hixie> zcorpan: i think your proposal is pretty good
  5. # [00:20] <Hixie> i think i'm going to take this opportunity to discard the "block" and "inline" terms though
  6. # [00:20] <Hixie> in favour of something like "paragraph-level" and "phrasing-level" or something
  7. # [00:22] <Hixie> i don't know that we want video to be strictly speaking inline/phrasing-level... after all it has to contain blocks (i agree it's transparent)... consider this:
  8. # [00:23] <Hixie> <section> The screen should now look like <object ...> <pre> <samp> ... </samp> </pre> </object> which...
  9. # [00:23] <Hixie> i suppose it's ok for paragraphing to be loosely defined
  10. # [00:24] <Hixie> in fact i guess we can throw all of that to the winds and just say that you apply css rules to determine "blocks" for the purposes of rendering, even if you don't support css itself
  11. # [00:26] <Hixie> *ponder* *ponder*
  12. # [00:39] <jruderman> Hixie: neat, so "block in inline" will unambiguously refer to the CSS layout issue rather than the HTML parsing issue
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  18. # [01:06] <Hixie> jruderman: yeah
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  29. # [09:04] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  30. # [09:04] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 03:10:22
  31. # [10:16] <krijnh> Ping
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  35. # [10:17] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  36. # [10:17] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 03:10:22
  37. # [10:17] <krijnh> Shitty connection today :/
  38. # [10:25] <krijnh> Pong
  39. # [12:08] <krijnh> Grmbl
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  43. # [12:08] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  44. # [12:08] * Set by Hixie on Tue Apr 03 03:10:22
  45. # [12:09] <hsivonen> the source line numbering is right
  46. # [12:10] <krijnh> Hey, I'm back
  47. # [12:10] <hsivonen> but the parser line numbering goes into the weed but there's nothing particularly strange in the source at that point...
  48. # [12:18] <madness> Camaban: re: opera, yes, that too
  49. # [12:22] * Quits: madness (n=mng@client-86-27-168-55.popl.adsl.virgin.net)
  50. # [12:52] <Philip`> "[whatwg] [html5] Unsubcribe me!" -- that's not fair - artificially inflated subscriber numbers are the most useful outcome of the Ogg issue, but it will be lost if people just unsubscribe :-(
  51. # [12:52] <stijntje> hahaha wtf
  52. # [12:52] <stijntje> :SD
  53. # [12:53] <stijntje> "$$ka-ching$$"
  54. # [12:54] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@static-88.131.66.110.addr.tdcsong.se)
  55. # [12:55] <Lachy> looks like mo0n_sniper just subscribed to send that pointless message and now wants to unsubscribe
  56. # [12:57] <othermaciej> that was pretty sad, yeah
  57. # [13:06] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@static-88.131.66.110.addr.tdcsong.se) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  58. # [13:07] <hsivonen> yay. I managed to minimize Sam's dogfood case to 5 lines of XML
  59. # [13:08] <maikmerten> stijntje, yeah, I totally love this professional unsubscripe request, too
  60. # [13:08] <maikmerten> "hit and run"
  61. # [13:08] <maikmerten> *unsubscribe
  62. # [13:08] <hsivonen> unsophisticated advocacy doesn't reflect well on any community :-(
  63. # [13:09] <maikmerten> yeah, and I always get a slight stomache when seing things like this
  64. # [13:10] <stijntje> did I miss something? I don't seem to have the mail Shannon is replying to in his latest
  65. # [13:10] <maikmerten> err... stomachache
  66. # [13:12] <hsivonen> stijntje: I don't see what (s)he is replying to, either
  67. # [13:12] <stijntje> might be a private mail from Dave
  68. # [13:13] <hsivonen> in-reply-to points to the same domain as message-id
  69. # [13:13] <maikmerten> which reminds me how I often just hit "reply" on a mailing list post and thus accidentially answer off-list
  70. # [13:13] <stijntje> that happens to me too
  71. # [13:14] <maikmerten> back in ye olde days "reply" would always get back to the list
  72. # [13:14] <maikmerten> I'm not sure why all lists seem to have changed this
  73. # [13:15] <maikmerten> (I now hit "reply all" and then kill all non-list addresses so people won't get the same thing twice)
  74. # [13:16] <stijntje> is Shanon a male or female name, by the way?
  75. # [13:17] <hsivonen> stijntje: it is at least female, but I don't know it works as a male name, too
  76. # [13:17] <stijntje> hsivonen: thank you
  77. # [13:18] <maikmerten> on the stomachache thing: It's nice if people show support for free formats and all... but why can some guys not stick to minimum social standards? (even if impulse and passion drives them away)
  78. # [13:18] <stijntje> or read up on the thing about which they're upset :)
  79. # [13:20] <maikmerten> (having said that I must confess I also did write some messages to the list I wished I wouldn't have sent)
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  175. # [16:36] <hsivonen> What foreign namespaces are reasonable in XHTML5 other than SVG, MathML and RDF (plus whatever happens in the RDF subtree)?
  176. # [16:37] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com)
  177. # [16:38] <hsivonen> is there any good-for-the-Web reason to use XLink in XHTML5?
  178. # [16:41] <hsivonen> the XBL2 spec has an example that embeds XBL2 in SVG. is it reasonable to embed XBL2 in XHTML5?
  179. # [16:41] <Philip`> There's XLink in SVG subtrees
  180. # [16:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: yeah, embedding SVG covers that case
  181. # [16:43] <annevk> it's reasonable
  182. # [16:44] <annevk> XLink should be avoided when possible
  183. # [16:44] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. what's our XBL2 in text/html story?
  184. # [16:44] <annevk> CSS
  185. # [16:44] <annevk> for now anyway
  186. # [16:44] <hsivonen> ok. XHTML5 > HTML5 then :-)
  187. # [16:45] <annevk> euh, run
  188. # [16:45] <hsivonen> does RDF have some kind of notion of correctness that doesn't involve knowledge about a particular vocabulary/ontology/whatever
  189. # [16:45] <hsivonen> ?
  190. # [16:46] <hsivonen> I'm wondering if I should make RDF a black hole or plug in Jena
  191. # [16:46] <hsivonen> (though I'm only going to plug in Jena if it's useful and low-hanging fruit)
  192. # [16:47] <hsivonen> is it legitimate to use XHTML5/SVG/MathML elements inside an RDF subtree?
  193. # [16:47] <annevk> given how widely RDF is deployed I would prioritize other things personally
  194. # [16:47] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah.
  195. # [16:47] <hsivonen> black hole it is
  196. # [17:00] <Dashiva> RDF is like prolog, it's all backwards
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  198. # [17:01] <Dashiva> Talking about correctness is tricky
  199. # [17:02] <gsnedders> I. am. correct.
  200. # [17:02] <gsnedders> That wasn't hard.
  201. # [17:02] * gsnedders looks up logs to see what he just said
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  207. # [17:46] <gsnedders> god. another 51 emails on whatwg.
  208. # [17:46] <G0k> i have a solution for you
  209. # [17:46] <stijntje> mostly ogg drama
  210. # [17:46] <G0k> if contains 'ogg' -> junk
  211. # [17:50] <gsnedders> :P
  212. # [17:58] * Joins: oxygenws (n=oxygenws@wikipedia/Omidmottaghi)
  213. # [17:59] <oxygenws> in globalStorage, what happen to IP browsing sites?
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  217. # [18:07] <G0k> so has anyone even considered implementing the network connections stuff (section 6.3) ?
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  223. # [18:48] <Hixie> wow, lots of mail
  224. # [18:49] <inimino> I have replied to some off-list
  225. # [18:50] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La6df.l.pppool.de)
  226. # [18:51] <Hixie> the internet gods aren't wanting me to reply to this mail
  227. # [18:51] <Hixie> every time i try, my connection dies
  228. # [18:52] <inimino> it seems there are widely divergent opinions on the coercive value of a SHOULD in the spec
  229. # [18:52] <Hixie> it seems pretty academic, since all the browser vendors who would be coerced have already implemented Theora, and the others have said they won't do it
  230. # [18:52] <inimino> and perhaps of the value of <video> without a real agreed-upon baseline
  231. # [18:53] <Hixie> i think it's pretty clear that <video> without a common codec would be a failure
  232. # [18:53] <inimino> right
  233. # [18:53] <inimino> I think a token SHOULD mentioning Ogg could be as great of a failure
  234. # [18:54] <Hixie> sure, since it wouldn't be a common codec
  235. # [18:55] <inimino> specifically if some other format is actually interoperable across any sizeable group of UAs
  236. # [18:56] <Hixie> if some format is interoperable, and it doesn't suck too much, it'll be successful
  237. # [18:56] <Hixie> regardless of what the spec says
  238. # [18:56] <inimino> right
  239. # [18:56] <inimino> and regardless of whether it is interoperable by free software
  240. # [18:56] <inimino> s/interoperable/implementable/
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  251. # [19:44] <gsnedders> Flow 5.0: <http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/14/art-installation-made-up-of-hundreds-of-case-fans-is-full-of-air/>
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  282. # [22:37] <Philip`> Is it bad to write web content using __defineGetter__?
  283. # [22:38] * Joins: aroben_ (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  284. # [22:38] <Philip`> (particularly for something around canvas-3d, so I can make some assumptions about what browsers users will have)
  285. # [22:39] <Dashiva> It's part of es4, so sure
  286. # [22:39] <gavin_> is it part of es3?
  287. # [22:40] <gavin_> does it work in safari/opera?
  288. # [22:40] <Philip`> I guess I only really care about Firefox 3 and Opera 10 and Safari 4, since my code won't work in anything else
  289. # [22:40] * gavin_ is just curious
  290. # [22:41] <Philip`> I vaguely remembering hearing that Opera 9.5 added it
  291. # [22:41] <Philip`> s/ering/er/
  292. # [22:45] <Philip`> Woah, my code works :-o
  293. # [22:46] * Philip` can now automatically create a shader object to say e.g. shader.lightPosition = [1,2,3] to set the correspondingly-named GLSL variable, instead of lots of ugly getUniformLocation/uniformf calls
  294. # [22:50] * Joins: parcelbrat (n=parcelbr@63.226.88.128)
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  297. # [22:55] <Dashiva> gavin: Not in es3, mozilla started it in their js 1.7 or so. Opera added support in 9.5. Not sure about Safari
  298. # [22:59] <gavin_> er, __defineGetter__?
  299. # [22:59] <gavin_> pretty sure that existed long before js1.7
  300. # [23:00] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
  301. # [23:00] <gavin_> it was landed in Mozilla CVS on 2000-03-02 15:19 with the comment "Added ECMA3 compliant getter/setter syntax."
  302. # [23:01] <gavin_> now, that commit message may not mean __defineGetter__ itself
  303. # [23:01] <gavin_> but that does suggest that it was pre-1.7 :)
  304. # [23:06] <Dashiva> I expect "ECMA3 compliant" means it doesn't extend the syntax, like { get a : function(){} } and function getter a() {}
  305. # [23:25] <Philip`> "most users don't install third-party products" ... except for Flash?
  306. # [23:25] <Hixie> most users don't install flash, it comes pre-installed
  307. # [23:26] <Philip`> Oh, does Windows do that?
  308. # [23:26] <Hixie> not sure what the status is these days. it used to, i believe.
  309. # [23:26] <Hixie> most OEMs do too
  310. # [23:26] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  311. # [23:29] <Philip`> Hmm, apparently at least XP does
  312. # [23:29] <Philip`> That sounds boringly non-anti-competitive
  313. # [23:29] <Hixie> XP is from before SilverLight
  314. # [23:29] <Hixie> :-)
  315. # [23:29] <parcelbrat> i didn't think MS was allowed to do that
  316. # [23:29] <Hixie> anyway, gotta go get lunch
  317. # [23:29] <parcelbrat> (be non-anti-ompetitive)
  318. # [23:34] <Philip`> parcelbrat: Indeed - I think we should sue them for it
  319. # [23:34] <parcelbrat> You and me, sholdn't be a problem ;)
  320. # [23:35] * Philip` starts writing the press release and preparing interviews
  321. # [23:35] * parcelbrat hides his money
  322. # [23:54] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  323. # Session Close: Sat Dec 15 00:00:00 2007

The end :)