/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-12-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Dec 15 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:15] * Philip` hates rotateX/rotateY/rotateZ
  5. # [00:20] <stijntje> my XP didn't pre-install Flash last time I installed it (2 weeks ago(
  6. # [00:20] <stijntje> )
  7. # [00:20] * Philip` tries to find someone's affine decomposition code to steal
  8. # [00:20] <dbaron> Was Apple's CSS animations proposal discussed on the WHATWG list in addition to www-style? I sent some comments in response to the www-style post; not sure if I should send them elsewhere.
  9. # [00:21] <Hixie> i don't think so
  10. # [00:21] * Philip` doesn't think so either
  11. # [00:22] * Philip` really doesn't want to port http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~pang/160/f98/Gems/GemsIV/polar_decomp/Decompose.c to JS
  12. # [00:23] <othermaciej> dbaron: no, it wasn't discussed on the WHATWG list
  13. # [00:28] <parcelbrat> C to JS OUCH!
  14. # [00:30] <gsnedders> hmm…
  15. # [00:30] <gsnedders> nobody sending any unacceptable Content-Length values.
  16. # [00:31] <Philip`> gsnedders: Are there any >256KB? (I set that as the maximum to accept, so hopefully HttpClient still downloaded all the headers and first 256KB properly and just stopped before downloading the rest, but I'm not positive)
  17. # [00:32] <Philip`> (At least, I *think* it was 256KB...)
  18. # [00:33] * gsnedders needs to decide what to do with invalid Etag values
  19. # [00:34] <gsnedders> "59584b8bdef9e2e442f03cf8945a7229" does not match the invalid value 59584b8bdef9e2e442f03cf8945a7229
  20. # [00:34] <gsnedders> Which means the standard quoted-string error handling
  21. # [00:34] <gsnedders> …doesn't work
  22. # [00:36] * Philip` wonders whether rotateX goes clockwise or anticlockwise
  23. # [00:36] * Philip` also wonders which direction is clockwise
  24. # [00:37] * Philip` uses his standard 3d graphics approach of guessing blindly, then fiddling with minus signs until it renders correctly
  25. # [00:37] * gsnedders points in a clockwise direction
  26. # [00:37] <gsnedders> silly IRC limitations
  27. # [00:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: max Content-Length value is 9992
  28. # [00:39] <gsnedders> (which is amazing small, methinks)
  29. # [00:39] <Philip`> If you turn a clock around, clockwise goes backwards, and if you don't have an actual clock face to start with then you can't really tell which way is backwards :-(
  30. # [00:39] <Philip`> gsnedders: Try sorting numerically, not alphabetically :-p
  31. # [00:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: that was :P
  32. # [00:40] <gsnedders> if header["value"] > max:\n\tmax = header["value"]
  33. # [00:40] <Philip`> Put some int(...) in there to make sure it's numbers
  34. # [00:40] <gsnedders> Philip`: they all are
  35. # [00:41] * gsnedders opens the file and finds a larger one straight away
  36. # [00:41] * gsnedders wonders how Python does > on a string
  37. # [00:42] <Philip`> 238242 is the maximum
  38. # [00:42] <Philip`> (9992 is the maximum if you do string comparisons)
  39. # [00:43] * gsnedders is nowadays used to >, + and the like casting to int/float implicitly
  40. # [00:43] <Philip`> Hmm, it looks suspiciously like I dropped anything >256KB
  41. # [00:44] <gsnedders> now I get 3487 as the max value with int() :\
  42. # [00:44] <gsnedders> oh. wait.
  43. # [00:44] <gsnedders> I printed the wrong value.
  44. # [00:44] <gsnedders> I printed the last content-length value :P
  45. # [00:44] <Philip`> http://www.untraveledroad.com/USA/Nevada/Elko.htm - "Content-Length: 00006330"
  46. # [00:45] <gsnedders> well, as a normal integer, all leading zeros are pointless.
  47. # [00:45] <Philip`> Are they allowed in theory/practice?
  48. # [00:46] <gsnedders> in theory allowed, in practice as far as I know they are too
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  57. # [01:16] * Philip` wishes Opera had uneval
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  59. # [01:26] <Philip`> Argh, rotateX uses degrees :-(
  60. # [01:27] <Philip`> Hooray, now I have a monkey and a box in Opera which looks about the same as in Firefox, except it's totally unshaded
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  67. # [01:57] <Philip`> Now my monkey is shaded approximately the same in both, except rubbisher and slower in Opera
  68. # [01:57] <Philip`> but at least it works, which is handy
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  71. # [02:27] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/canvas/3d/x3d/test.html - should work in Firefox 3 beta with Canvas 3D extension and OpenGL 2.0 hardware; and in Opera 9.5 builds with opera-3d
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  73. # [02:34] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/canvas/3d/x3d/output-ff.png vs http://philip.html5.org/demos/canvas/3d/x3d/output-opera.png
  74. # [02:35] <Philip`> (The Opera version is several times slower, and has much more hardcoded lighting stuff)
  75. # [02:35] <Philip`> (and only does per-vertex lighting, not per-pixel)
  76. # [02:35] <hdh> wow, blender's monkey head
  77. # [02:35] <Philip`> Indeed :-)
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  92. # [07:56] <jacobolus> Hixie: around?
  93. # [07:56] <jacobolus> I notice that the server-sent events things now have a big "might remove this" notice. does that mean altered, or scrapped altogether?
  94. # [07:57] <Hixie> either
  95. # [07:57] <Hixie> they're kinda redundant with xhr with multipart, and with the bidirectional networking stuff
  96. # [07:57] <jacobolus> Hixie: you see http://cometdaily.com/2007/12/11/the-future-of-comet-part-1-comet-today/ ?
  97. # [07:58] <jacobolus> Hixie: I have most of an article about server-sent events as well, talking about opera's implementation
  98. # [07:58] <jacobolus> also, apparently there are issues w/ multipart xhr
  99. # [07:58] <jacobolus> namely, there's no notice when connections are severed
  100. # [07:59] <Hixie> yeah we'd have to make sure we covered all the bases
  101. # [07:59] <Hixie> if we don't remove event-source, we'll probably simplify it a lot
  102. # [07:59] <Hixie> right now it's way overengineered
  103. # [08:01] <jacobolus> Hixie: yeah, that's a big part of my article :)
  104. # [08:01] <jacobolus> which is mostly actually about getting more ppl to send you feedback :)
  105. # [08:02] <Hixie> :-)
  106. # [08:02] <Hixie> to be honest even if we really want event-source and even if it was perfect, we might still have to remove them
  107. # [08:02] <Hixie> depends on whether browsers implement it or not
  108. # [08:02] <jacobolus> Hixie: if you have time to read this, let me know what you think :) (assuming the thing ever pastes)
  109. # [08:02] <Hixie> that goes for every feature of course
  110. # [08:02] <Hixie> the article?
  111. # [08:02] <Hixie> i read it
  112. # [08:03] <jacobolus> yeah, trying to paste to a pastebin
  113. # [08:03] <jacobolus> it's stalling
  114. # [08:03] * jacobolus pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/private/xsvmjyopvftavgbcbjpexa
  115. # [08:03] <jacobolus> no no, the draft of the next one
  116. # [08:04] <jacobolus> Hixie: ↑
  117. # [08:04] * Hixie finishes reading it
  118. # [08:11] <jacobolus> hsivonen: I did a web search for "java applet suck", and a comment you made in here came up in the top page of google results :)
  119. # [08:14] <jacobolus> bb5
  120. # [08:28] <jacobolus> Hixie: thoughts?
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  124. # [08:30] <jacobolus1> Hixie: hrm, i was apparently disconnected. did i miss anything?
  125. # [08:30] * jacobolus1 is now known as jacobolus
  126. # [08:44] <jacobolus> well. off to sleep. bb later sometime :)
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  134. # [10:25] <othermaciej> Hixie: people have started on event-source for WebKit, so it would be good to have revision/simplification sooner rather than later
  135. # [10:25] <othermaciej> Hixie: I do tend to agree that sending arbitrary server-sent events to arbitrary nodes seems like overkill
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  140. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - you around?
  141. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> I thought I remembered hsivonen saying that he had added some support to html5.validator.nu for checking for allowed values for the rel attribute based on scraping http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions
  142. # [11:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I didn't add it yet. just discussed options with Hixie
  143. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> OK
  144. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - so html5.validator.nu isn't doing an conformance checking on rel values now, right?
  145. # [11:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: right
  146. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> OK, thanks
  147. # [11:07] <hsivonen> afk. switchin locations. will be back in 45 minutes
  148. # [11:11] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  149. # [11:11] <hsivonen> back here. bus gone already
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  205. # [16:40] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: the group messages feature is great :)
  206. # [16:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: thanks
  207. # [16:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: re: <semantics>: annotation/annotation-xml are so under-defined that I seriously doubt that there are useful implementations
  208. # [16:43] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: ok
  209. # [16:44] <hsivonen> I think I'm going to leave annotation-xml as an anything-goes black hole for now
  210. # [16:44] <hsivonen> like RDF...
  211. # [16:46] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F&schema=http%3A%2F%2Fsyntax.whattf.org%2Frelaxng%2Fhtml5full.rnc+http%3A%2F%2Fsyntax.whattf.org%2Frelaxng%2Fassertions.sch+http%3A%2F%2Fhsivonen.iki.fi%2Fcheckers%2Fall%2F&showsource=yes -- the location link for error 2 doesn't point to the right place
  212. # [16:46] <zcorpan_lap> s/error/message/
  213. # [16:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: IIRC you said that RDF is allowed where metadata elements are allowed. are there other foreign metadata elements that I should allow in XHTML5?
  214. # [16:48] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: hmm. strange. I have a parser fix in my tree that I couldn't deploy yesterday. I try deploying now
  215. # [16:49] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: the link points to cl2c109 but the id is l2c109
  216. # [16:49] <hsivonen> ooh. a front-end bug
  217. # [16:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: fixed. thanks
  218. # [16:54] <hsivonen> (deployed too)
  219. # [16:59] <hsivonen> can rdf:RDF legitimately have non-xmlns attributes?
  220. # [17:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: should only rdf:RDF be allowed as an RDF subtree root or should rdf:Description be allowed as well?
  221. # [17:01] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: ie doesn't know about HTMLOListElement
  222. # [17:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: ok. what test would you suggest instead?
  223. # [17:02] <hsivonen> I have a hard time interpreting http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/#start
  224. # [17:03] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: .tagName.toLowerCase() == "ol"
  225. # [17:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: not theoretically pure, but OK
  226. # [17:04] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: indeed. not sure what else would work cross-browser
  227. # [17:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: does IE support nodeName? it would be more robust in case I ever put whitespace there
  228. # [17:06] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: it does
  229. # [17:06] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: you could check .start
  230. # [17:06] <zcorpan_lap> returns 1 if <ol> otherwise undefined
  231. # [17:07] <zcorpan_lap> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Col%3E.%3Cscript%3Ew(document.body.firstChild.start)%3C%2Fscript%3E
  232. # [17:07] <hsivonen> hmm. I'm not sure which test is theoretically less pure...
  233. # [17:08] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  234. # [17:08] <zcorpan_lap> firefox returns -1 though
  235. # [17:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: yeah, I just noticed it broke firefox
  236. # [17:10] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-85-165.karoo.KCOM.COM) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  237. # [17:10] <zcorpan_lap> but -1 is truthy so you could just do if (n.start)
  238. # [17:10] <hsivonen> I did if (n.start) and it broke
  239. # [17:12] <zcorpan_lap> weird
  240. # [17:12] <hsivonen> hmm. file copying was what broke
  241. # [17:12] <zcorpan_lap> ok
  242. # [17:12] <hsivonen> now the script is on the server for real
  243. # [17:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: thanks
  244. # [17:13] <zcorpan_lap> np
  245. # [17:13] <hsivonen> XHTML in Safari still broken
  246. # [17:14] <zcorpan_lap> i think that's document.body
  247. # [17:14] <zcorpan_lap> hmm, now ie7 crashes
  248. # [17:14] <zcorpan_lap> :)
  249. # [17:18] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-85-165.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  250. # [17:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: any advice on what I need to do to stop it from crashing?
  251. # [17:21] <zcorpan_lap> i don't know what it is that makes it crash
  252. # [17:22] <zcorpan_lap> it's not the .start check, i think
  253. # [17:22] * Quits: colione (n=colione@17.247.241.83.in-addr.dgcsystems.net)
  254. # [17:23] <hsivonen> I think I'm doing relatively tame DOM operations
  255. # [17:23] <zcorpan_lap> it's not createHtmlElement either
  256. # [17:25] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9b45.l.pppool.de)
  257. # [17:26] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: you may need to set .type = 'button' before you append the input to the p
  258. # [17:27] <zcorpan_lap> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%20function%20createHtmlElement(tagName)%7B%0D%0A%20%20%20%20return%20document.createElementNS%20%3F%20document.createElementNS(%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxhtml%22%2C%20tagName)%20%3A%20document.createElement(tagName)%0D%0A%7D%0D%0Avar%20currentOl%20%3D%20document.body.firstChild%3B%0D%0Afunction%20installGrouping
  259. # [17:27] <zcorpan_lap> a%20%3D%20createHtmlElement('p')%0D%0A%09var%20button%20%3D%20createHtmlElement('input')%0D%0A%09para.appendChild(button)%0D%0A%09button.type%20%3D%20'button'%0D%0A%7D%0D%0AinstallGroupingToggle()%0D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
  260. # [17:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: better now (after reload)?
  261. # [17:29] <zcorpan_lap> still crashes
  262. # [17:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: you were right about document.body and Safari
  263. # [17:36] * zcorpan_lap has no idea what makes ie crash :(
  264. # [17:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: does it crash onload?
  265. # [17:37] <hsivonen> that is, before pushing the button?
  266. # [17:37] <zcorpan_lap> yes
  267. # [17:37] <zcorpan_lap> but not before you've validated something
  268. # [17:38] <zcorpan_lap> i.e. just loading http://validator.nu/ works fine
  269. # [17:38] <hsivonen> well, crashing isn't user-friendly
  270. # [17:38] <zcorpan_lap> :)
  271. # [17:38] <hsivonen> I guess it's better if I just disable the script for IE
  272. # [17:39] <hsivonen> I wonder what's the best way to *really* detect IE without depriving other browsers of the script
  273. # [17:39] <hsivonen> should I just put the instanceof thing back?
  274. # [17:40] <zcorpan_lap> that would work
  275. # [17:40] <zcorpan_lap> the safest way otherwise, i think, is conditional comments (either in html or js)
  276. # [17:43] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: I put instanceof back
  277. # [17:43] <Philip`> Can you report the bug to the IE developers?
  278. # [17:43] <hsivonen> Philip`: me? I haven't even witnessed it firsthand
  279. # [17:45] <Philip`> hsivonen: I guess "you" means "someone who can reproduce the bug"
  280. # [17:45] * Philip` doesn't know if there's still any public bug reporting mechanism
  281. # [17:46] <zcorpan_lap> "Now that the final version of IE7 has been released, the IE Feedback site is temporarily closed. It will re-open in the future."
  282. # [17:46] <zcorpan_lap> it has been "temporarily closed" the past year or so
  283. # [17:47] <hsivonen> did anne write an XBL2 schema in RELAX NG?
  284. # [17:48] * hsivonen works on a massive überschema reorganization
  285. # [17:52] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  286. # [17:55] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@c-24-61-15-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  287. # [17:59] * hsivonen has trouble getting trang to cooperate...
  288. # [18:13] * Joins: stijntje (i=stijn@v217057.vpn.tue.nl)
  289. # [18:14] * Joins: mastijntje (i=stijn@v217057.vpn.tue.nl)
  290. # [18:16] * Quits: mastijntje (i=stijn@v217057.vpn.tue.nl) (Client Quit)
  291. # [18:16] * Quits: zcorpan_lap (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  295. # [18:30] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9b45.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  296. # [18:31] <hasather> hsivonen: the schemas are here: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/waf/xbl-schemas/
  297. # [18:31] <hsivonen> hasather: thanks
  298. # [18:35] <hsivonen> hmm. anne is not here. that xbl2 schema lacks license info
  299. # [18:38] <hsivonen> has Hixie really specced XBL id to take the value constraints of xsd:ID or has Anne taken liberties with the schema?
  300. # [18:42] <hasather> hsivonen: as far as I know, that was never specced
  301. # [18:43] * Joins: zcorpan_lap (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  302. # [18:43] <hsivonen> hasather: OK
  303. # [18:45] <hasather> hsivonen: I may be wrong though, but I remember there were some discussion around ID in XBL
  304. # [18:46] <hsivonen> hasather: there were at least the discussions where nwalsh said it should use xml:id
  305. # [18:46] <hasather> yea
  306. # [18:57] <gsnedders> Old glow sticks are so boring.
  307. # [19:15] * Quits: stijntje (i=stijn@v217057.vpn.tue.nl) ("give me some substance")
  308. # [19:16] * Quits: zcorpan_lap (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  309. # [19:37] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-217-3.dsl.pipex.com)
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  311. # [19:53] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  312. # [19:55] <jruderman> gsnedders: break it open and pour it in homestar's mountain dew
  313. # [20:08] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  314. # [20:34] <hsivonen> hmm. the message grouping script has a silly bug when source is shown and there are no messages...
  315. # [20:39] * Joins: zcorpan_lap (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  316. # [20:42] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: i guess you could just set an id on the messages list
  317. # [20:42] <zcorpan_lap> although if you replace instanceof with getElementById then you'll probably get the ie crasher again :)
  318. # [20:43] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: I wanted to avoid issues like that :-)
  319. # [20:48] <hsivonen> let me say again that RELAX NG DTD Compatibility sucks
  320. # [20:53] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-79.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  321. # [20:55] <hsivonen> w00t. my local copy validates intertwingly.net/blog
  322. # [20:55] <hdh> what can I use instead of XFN?
  323. # [20:56] <hsivonen> hdh: for what purpose?
  324. # [20:56] <hdh> in html5 the rel values is a limited set → no XFN
  325. # [20:56] <hsivonen> hdh: please edit the wiki :-)
  326. # [21:00] <hdh> "Unless otherwise specified, a keyword must not be specified more than once per rel attribute." ← "keyword" here means link type?
  327. # [21:01] <hsivonen> yes
  328. # [21:12] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-217-3.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  329. # [21:14] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-195-74.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  330. # [21:16] <hdh> hm, unknown rel types aren't conformance error, and the spec does say that "if none of the values in the attribute are recognised by the UA", i.e. allowing types outside it
  331. # [21:16] <hdh> s/that//
  332. # [21:16] * Quits: zcorpan_lap (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  333. # [21:21] <Philip`> hdh: 4.12.3.21 says "Other than the types defined above, only types defined as extensions in the WHATWG Wiki RelExtensions page may be used with the rel attribute on link, a, and area elements."
  334. # [21:22] <Philip`> so it sounds like it's intending that unknown types (i.e. not in spec nor wiki) are an error
  335. # [21:22] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@209.79.152.151)
  336. # [21:22] <Philip`> though it should probably say "must" somewhere, and I can't see that it does
  337. # [21:22] * Joins: zcorpan_lap (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  338. # [21:24] <hsivonen> any opinions on what I should do with inkscape/sodipodi product-specific cruft?
  339. # [21:25] <hdh> search for prefix:, no hit → delete xmlns: ; remove all style= and test if things look ugly afterwards; run throught xmllint to drop whitespace
  340. # [21:25] <hdh> I haven't tried the second one yet
  341. # [21:26] <hsivonen> hdh: I meant: what should the validator do
  342. # [21:26] <Philip`> hsivonen: It would be non-helpful if it was an error, since there's no point in authors cleaning it up
  343. # [21:26] <Philip`> (as far as I'm aware)
  344. # [21:26] <hdh> warn as unknown namespace?
  345. # [21:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: will I be product-biased if I allow sodipodi/inkscape cruft specifically?
  346. # [21:26] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-217-3.dsl.pipex.com)
  347. # [21:27] <Philip`> though maybe it could have one warning saying "you're wasting some space with this stuff - try the 'export as plain SVG' option"
  348. # [21:27] <hsivonen> or of course I would, but would I be bad?
  349. # [21:28] <Philip`> hsivonen: I don't see why it would be bad, as long as you gave the same allowance for any other product that people use and which is harmless
  350. # [21:28] <Philip`> (where "that people use" could mean "that people complain to you about")
  351. # [21:29] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
  352. # [21:29] <Philip`> I could be wrong, of course :-)
  353. # [21:29] * hsivonen wonders if that's a slippery slope to allowing RDFa in XHTML5 :-)
  354. # [21:30] <Philip`> Hmm, can you validate RDF that's inside HTML comments?
  355. # [21:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: I don't
  356. # [21:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: however, I'm right now punching holes for real RDF in the XHTML5 and SVG 1.1 schemas
  357. # [21:31] * Quits: stijntje (i=stijn@a62-251-111-252.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("give me some substance")
  358. # [21:34] * Philip` wonders if anyone would want to embed X3D inline in XHTML
  359. # [21:34] <Philip`> (That would be easier if it had a namespace, I suppose)
  360. # [21:35] <Philip`> (but it's easy to make one up)
  361. # [21:36] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: it seems weird to allow sodipodi/inkscape cruft if it's not allowed per the svg spec
  362. # [21:38] <Philip`> "SVG allows inclusion of elements from foreign namespaces anywhere with the SVG content. In general, the SVG user agent will include the unknown elements in the DOM but will otherwise ignore unknown elements."
  363. # [21:38] <Philip`> "Additionally, SVG allows inclusion of attributes from foreign namespaces on any SVG element. The SVG user agent will include unknown attributes in the DOM but with otherwise ignore unknown attributes."
  364. # [21:38] <Philip`> That sounds like it's allowed
  365. # [21:38] <Philip`> (via http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/extend.html )
  366. # [21:39] <zcorpan_lap> ok. then you wouldn't have to have knowledge about sodipodi/inkscape cruft specifically
  367. # [21:40] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  368. # [21:40] <Philip`> You would have to if you want to whitelist known extensions, since otherwise you couldn't detect people incorrectly using xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/html" or whatever
  369. # [21:40] <hsivonen> I'm not a fan of anything-goes holes
  370. # [21:40] <hsivonen> Philip`: indeed
  371. # [21:41] <hsivonen> btw, the above "ignore" text doesn't say if ignoring an element means ignoring the subtree or behaving as if the content of the element appeared in place of the element
  372. # [21:42] <hsivonen> I'm inclined to restrict foreignObject to XHTML and MathML only
  373. # [21:43] <hdh> is xfn not allowed on <link>?
  374. # [21:43] <hsivonen> hdh: it is if it's on the wiki. if not, it will be once you've edited the wiki
  375. # [21:43] <hdh> I'm editing it, but not sure what to put in the Effect on link column
  376. # [21:44] <hsivonen> "(Other XML-compatible metadata languages, including ones not based on RDF, can be used also.)" Any examples of "other"?
  377. # [21:44] <zcorpan_lap> is there a spec for xfn?
  378. # [21:44] <hdh> http://gmpg.org/xfn/11
  379. # [21:44] <hsivonen> http://gmpg.org/xfn/11
  380. # [21:45] <hsivonen> I'm slow
  381. # [21:45] <zcorpan_lap> thanks
  382. # [21:45] <hdh> actually a profile, which is gone in html5
  383. # [21:46] <hsivonen> doesn't matter
  384. # [21:46] <hsivonen> no one checks the profile attribute upon processing
  385. # [21:47] <Philip`> I thought GRDDL does
  386. # [21:48] <Philip`> (since the profile points to some XSLT to convert the XHTML to RDF, according to this diagram)
  387. # [21:48] <hsivonen> ok, someone checks
  388. # [21:48] <hsivonen> except the XFN profile isn't XSLT. oops.
  389. # [21:49] <hdh> and xslt is a stylesheet
  390. # [21:49] <hsivonen> a "transformation" would be more politically correct on this channel :-)
  391. # [21:50] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/2003/12/rdf-in-xhtml-xslts/grokXFN.xsl
  392. # [21:50] <hdh> aye, I'm a newcomer
  393. # [21:51] <hsivonen> Philip`: is there some mapping magic from a gmpg.org URI to that URI?
  394. # [21:53] <Philip`> hsivonen: Don't know - I'm not sure if the aim is to put the XSLT version at the gmpg.org URI, or to have an external mapping that doesn't need cooperation, or something else
  395. # [21:54] <Philip`> I vaguely remembering hearing something about those possibilities, except I've forgotten it all now
  396. # [21:54] <Philip`> s/remembering/remember/
  397. # [21:54] <hsivonen> Does illustrator put any private-namespace cruft in SVG?
  398. # [21:55] <gsnedders> hsivonen: no
  399. # [21:55] <hsivonen> gsnedders: thanks
  400. # [21:55] <gsnedders> (at least, I've never seen so in CS3)
  401. # [21:58] <Philip`> The examples at http://www.adobe.com/svg/demos/samples.html don't have any public namespaces (and aren't well-formed) either :-/
  402. # [21:58] <Philip`> and have Content-Type: text/plain
  403. # [21:59] <hsivonen> XML is hard.
  404. # [22:00] <Philip`> (Doesn't look like those samples come from Illustrator anyway)
  405. # [22:00] <hsivonen> I'd like to see real-world cases of RDF inside SVG inside XHTML
  406. # [22:02] <Philip`> http://www.adobe.com/svg/svgfiles/interactive_filters.svgz
  407. # [22:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: how come on http://tinyurl.com/2dsa9f line 105 it is returned before it is set on line 98? Am I getting something wrong with how variables bounce around from function to function?
  408. # [22:02] <Philip`> is apparently from Illustrator
  409. # [22:02] <Philip`> <svg xmlns:i="&ns_ai;" xmlns:xlink="&ns_xlink;" xmlns:a="http://ns.adobe.com/AdobeSVGViewerExtensions/3.0/" width="400" height="304.9" viewBox="0 0 400 304.9" style="overflow:visible;enable-background:new 0 0 400 304.9" xml:space="preserve">
  410. # [22:02] <Philip`> and <!ENTITY ns_ai "http://ns.adobe.com/AdobeIllustrator/10.0/"> etc
  411. # [22:02] <hdh> er, the second newest blog post from Shelley
  412. # [22:03] <hsivonen> hdh: thanks
  413. # [22:04] <Philip`> The <svg> is still in no namespace, but at least Firefox displays the XML tree instead of a parse error
  414. # [22:04] * hdh 's firehose has been planet intertwingly lately
  415. # [22:04] * Philip` wonders if Adobe cares about anything other than the Adobe SVG Viewer
  416. # [22:04] <hsivonen> Philip`: eww. private elements
  417. # [22:04] <hsivonen> no fun
  418. # [22:05] * gsnedders opens Ai CS3
  419. # [22:06] <Philip`> gsnedders: XMLHttpRequest is asynchronous, so .send() returns before it's sent the request and called onreadystatechange and set ok
  420. # [22:06] <zcorpan_lap> hmm
  421. # [22:07] * Joins: aphid (n=aphid@dsl-63-249-87-11.cruzio.com)
  422. # [22:07] <gsnedders> hsivonen: CS3 has SVG and Xlink namespaces only, no DOCTYPE
  423. # [22:07] <hsivonen> hmm. Shelley relies on entities in XML on the Web...
  424. # [22:07] <zcorpan_lap> if illustrator doesn't emit xmlns="...svg", then it wouldn't be helpful to require xmlns="...svg" for text/html
  425. # [22:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: will setting it to false break anything?
  426. # [22:08] <Philip`> gsnedders: Setting what to false?
  427. # [22:08] <gsnedders> async
  428. # [22:10] <Philip`> gsnedders: Hmm, I guess it'd probably work if you change both requests to be synchronous, though you might end up with complaints about scripts taking too long to run
  429. # [22:11] <hsivonen> SVG element metadata not allowed as child of SVG element svg in this context.
  430. # [22:11] <hsivonen> I wonder why that happens...
  431. # [22:11] <hsivonen> Bad value 1.0 for attribute version on SVG element svg.
  432. # [22:11] <hsivonen> that's useful... Not
  433. # [22:12] <hsivonen> "The first occurrance of the ID value defs3 was here." hazards of mere inclusion...
  434. # [22:13] <Philip`> s/occurrance/occurrence/
  435. # [22:14] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  436. # [22:16] <Philip`> From http://burningbird.net/technology/standards-take-work/ : "sodipodi:docbase="/Users/richardthompson/Desktop"" - that looks like unintentional information leakage
  437. # [22:16] <Dashiva> Say hsivonen, would the validator be able to validate DOM trees too (in a suitable serialization format, like the one zcorpan was working on)?
  438. # [22:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks. now fixed in my local copy (not deployed)
  439. # [22:17] <hsivonen> Dashiva: if you contribute a parser for zcorpan's format to SAX
  440. # [22:18] <Philip`> Dashiva: (Why not a suitable serialisation format like XML?)
  441. # [22:18] <Dashiva> Because not all DOM trees can be represented as XML
  442. # [22:18] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-135-224-200.range86-135.btcentralplus.com) ("404: Not Found")
  443. # [22:18] <Philip`> Ah
  444. # [22:18] <hsivonen> Dashiva: it would be nice to have a Firefox extension that'd take a snapshot of the DOM and would send in to Validator.nu
  445. # [22:19] <Dashiva> Yeah, I got the idea from opera's validation option, and thought to extend it to a page after e.g. onload scripts had done their magic
  446. # [22:19] <Philip`> It would be nicer to have one that does local validation, so it doesn't send e.g. your filled-in password and credit card number fields to Validator.nu
  447. # [22:20] <Dashiva> But how big is the validator, with all dependencies? :)
  448. # [22:20] <Philip`> Do you count the JVM as a dependency? :-)
  449. # [22:20] <hsivonen> Dashiva: it's big
  450. # [22:21] <hsivonen> and there's the JVM startup delay
  451. # [22:21] <Philip`> Hopefully you would only have the startup delay when launching Firefox the first time, and ideally that would happen asynchronously
  452. # [22:22] <Philip`> s/the first time//
  453. # [22:24] * hdh just noticed the RDF tags for Shelley's tree in akregator
  454. # [22:24] <Dashiva> Might be better to simply run a pre-hook that removes value attributes from password fields :)
  455. # [22:25] <hsivonen> Dashiva: if you are OK with non-XMLizable DOM proclaimed invalid, the current Web service API goes a long way with XHR
  456. # [22:25] <Philip`> After you've sent your hundred-kilobyte document the validator a few dozen times, you'd be better off in terms of bandwidth if you downloaded a local copy plus all the dependencies
  457. # [22:25] <hsivonen> btw, what does XHR do if you try to POST a tree that doesn't serialize to XML?
  458. # [22:26] <Philip`> (particularly since developers will run this from their own computers, so it's not transmitting from the web server, so it'll be a slower network connection)
  459. # [22:27] <hsivonen> If someone wants to write a .zip packaging action for build/build.py, I'd be happy to integrate it
  460. # [22:28] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  461. # [22:31] <zcorpan_lap> setting opera:config#UserPrefs|ValidationURL to http://validator.nu/ seems to work
  462. # [22:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: cool
  463. # [22:31] <hdh> very
  464. # [22:31] <hsivonen> unintentional compatibility
  465. # [22:32] <zcorpan_lap> although encoding information is lost
  466. # [22:32] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: it would be useful to be able to suggest and/or override encoding
  467. # [22:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: on file upload?
  468. # [22:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: or in general_
  469. # [22:33] <hsivonen> ?
  470. # [22:33] <zcorpan_lap> at least file upload
  471. # [22:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: feature request recorded. thanks
  472. # [22:34] <hdh> web developer "validate local html" doesn't have uri setting, but the other one do
  473. # [22:36] * zcorpan_lap tried to enter http://validator.nu/?showsource=yes in opera:config but it didn't have the desired effect :(
  474. # [22:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: the query string is ignored in the file upload and textarea modes
  475. # [22:39] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: why?
  476. # [22:41] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  477. # [22:41] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  478. # [22:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: there's different code that reads params from multipart/form-data
  479. # [22:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan_lap: recorded as a feature request
  480. # [22:42] <zcorpan_lap> hsivonen: ok. thanks
  481. # [22:43] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-135-224-200.range86-135.btcentralplus.com)
  482. # [22:54] <gsnedders> Philip`: you're original only ever could be waiting on one thing at a time anyway
  483. # [22:55] <gsnedders> Philip`: making it synchronous would have no difference from your original
  484. # [22:55] <Philip`> From X3D / H-Anim: "float[4] rotation 0 0 1 0" ... "The rotation field specifies a rotation of the coordinate system of the Joint object as a quaternion." - it would be so much better if they actually defined quaternions and how they're represented, rather than making you guess whether it's xyzw or wxyz
  485. # [22:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: The original asynchronous one lets the browser get on with other things in the meantime, whereas the synchronous one prevents the browser from doing anything much to the page while the script is running and waiting
  486. # [22:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: yeah, I know. But how the original version of the script is written, it never tries to load more than one file at once
  487. # [22:56] <othermaciej> Philip`: quaternion! crazy
  488. # [22:57] <Philip`> gsnedders: The server is single-threaded so it can only load one file at a time anyway :-)
  489. # [22:57] <gsnedders> Philip`: the browser get on with what other things? surely other things outwith JS are unaffected by it?
  490. # [22:58] <gsnedders> (forgive my naïvety about this)
  491. # [22:58] * Philip` actually likes quaternions
  492. # [22:59] <Philip`> gsnedders: Maybe things like noticing DOM changes (e.g. when log messages are added) and re-rendering, except I don't know which browsers get hung up on that in practice
  493. # [23:00] <hsivonen> I was excited about the RNC "external" keyword when I learned about it but now I'm disappointed because I don't know how to make circular references
  494. # [23:00] <gsnedders> Philip`: but if the script isn't running, we don't add log mesages
  495. # [23:01] * gsnedders wonders whether to make the log an ordered list
  496. # [23:01] <Philip`> gsnedders: The script is 'running' in the sense that it's in the middle of executing a JS function, while waiting for the synchronous XHR, and it never stops running until every test has been processed
  497. # [23:01] <gsnedders> Philip`: I mean, the script isn't moving forward.
  498. # [23:01] <gsnedders> Philip`: so therefore we don't add log messages, we're just waiting at one line
  499. # [23:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: but you think that browsers don't actually check the DOM till JS has totally finished executing? :\
  500. # [23:03] <hsivonen> is SVG 1.1 Full a superset of SVG 1.0 and SVG 1.2 Full a superset of SVG 1.1 Full?
  501. # [23:03] <Philip`> gsnedders: It does (I assume) something effectively like "function run_tests() { log('Test 1'); xhr_request_stuff(); log('Test 2'); xhr_request_stuff(); ... }" and it doesn't return until everything's finished, so the browser doesn't get a chance to dispatch events (since it has to pretend the script is running single-threadedly)
  502. # [23:03] <Philip`> ...I think
  503. # [23:04] <Philip`> gsnedders: I think Opera and Firefox vary in whether/when they redraw the screen in response to DOM changes if a script is still running, but I can't remember the details now
  504. # [23:04] <gsnedders> Silly browsers.
  505. # [23:04] <Philip`> They'd be sillier if they allowed arbitrary concurrency between scripts :-)
  506. # [23:05] <hsivonen> any opinions on what I should do with <svg version='1.0'>? complaining about "1.0" seem useless
  507. # [23:06] <hsivonen> but then silently accepting version='1.0' with 1.1 features seems bogus, too
  508. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: events in the readystatechange event sense, or?
  509. # [23:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: Use a SVG 1.0 schema?
  510. # [23:07] <Philip`> gsnedders: Yes, but I guess readystatechange in synchronous XHR is special
  511. # [23:08] <hsivonen> Philip`: is there one that a) I don't need to write, b) has reasonable quality and c) doesn't conflict with the production names from the 1.1 schema?
  512. # [23:08] <Philip`> hsivonen: No idea. Those do sound like possible difficulties
  513. # [23:08] <hsivonen> point c) is particularly noteworthy if I'm expected to support 7 flavors of SVG
  514. # [23:09] <Philip`> Can't you have namespaced schemas? :-)
  515. # [23:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: I could, but it's a non-trivial find-and-replace job
  516. # [23:10] <hsivonen> or I could do that step in RNG and only then convert to RNC
  517. # [23:11] <hsivonen> what I really want is an SVG5 that gives me a license to treat version='' as a talisman
  518. # [23:15] * Quits: zcorpan_lap (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  519. # [23:16] <othermaciej> does SVG actually require particular treatment of version?
  520. # [23:16] <Philip`> X3D says "a script url prefixed with ecmascript: (or the deprecated javascript:) shall contain ECMAScript source" - is ecmascript: used by anything else?
  521. # [23:16] <othermaciej> no
  522. # [23:16] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I don't know
  523. # [23:16] <Philip`> I wish they gave examples in the XML syntax rather than the VRML syntax
  524. # [23:17] <hsivonen> so far, it seems to me that version='' only causes purity issues for validators
  525. # [23:18] * Philip` wonders if he should bother trying to implement a subset of X3D timing/events/scripting, or just make up something easier to do animation
  526. # [23:28] <gsnedders> How bizarre. 'Got "connection" header "", expected "close"' — Op9.2
  527. # [23:32] * Joins: Thezilch (n=fuz007@ip68-111-154-116.sd.sd.cox.net)
  528. # [23:33] <Philip`> http://www.web3d.org/specifications/x3d-3.0.xsd - hmm, text/plain
  529. # [23:33] <Philip`> Actually, 'text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1' and then <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
  530. # [23:36] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-135-224-200.range86-135.btcentralplus.com)
  531. # [23:46] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  532. # Session Close: Sun Dec 16 00:00:00 2007

The end :)