/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-12-16 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sun Dec 16 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  4. # [00:10] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  5. # [00:10] * Parts: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.59.113)
  6. # [00:15] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-195-74.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  7. # [00:24] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  8. # [00:27] <Philip`> Hmm, an X3D spec example uses a TimeSensor field named "fraction", which actually doesn't exist in the definition of TimeSensor (whereas there is a "fraction_changed" field), but it works anyway in at least one particular X3D viewer
  9. # [00:28] * Philip` won't support that bug for now
  10. # [00:44] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-72-87-174-59.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  11. # [01:09] <Philip`> Is html5.org down?
  12. # [01:15] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  13. # [01:17] <hasather> Philip`: this might be it: http://www.dreamhoststatus.com/2007/12/15/annoying-network-issues/
  14. # [01:17] <jgraham_> Philip`: It seems to be down for me as weel
  15. # [01:17] <jgraham_> s/weel/well/
  16. # [01:19] * Joins: stijntje (i=stijn@a62-251-111-252.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  17. # [01:22] <Philip`> "An OrientationInterpolator interpolates between two orientations by computing the shortest path on the unit sphere between the two orientations. The interpolation is linear in arc length along this path." - hmm, it'd be much more obvious if they simply said to use quaternion slerp, since I wouldn't have to work out whether that's what they actually mean
  18. # [01:22] <jacobolus> Hixie: sorry to keep bugging you. but any thoughts about that draft?
  19. # [01:23] <jacobolus> (http://pastie.textmate.org/private/xsvmjyopvftavgbcbjpexa)
  20. # [01:23] * Quits: stijntje (i=stijn@a62-251-111-252.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Client Quit)
  21. # [01:36] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com) ("leaving")
  22. # [01:42] * Joins: dean5 (n=opera@121-72-5-121.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  23. # [01:42] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  24. # [01:46] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  25. # [01:47] <Philip`> Hooray, a shiny monkey head on a declaratively animated rotating cube
  26. # [01:47] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  27. # [01:52] * Joins: dolphinling (n=chatzill@rbpool3-68.shoreham.net)
  28. # [02:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  29. # [02:48] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-85-165.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  30. # [03:12] * Quits: grimeboy (n=grimboy@78.144.146.0) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  31. # [03:25] * Quits: aphid (n=aphid@dsl-63-249-87-11.cruzio.com)
  32. # [03:28] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  33. # [03:31] * othermaciej is now known as om_out
  34. # [04:05] * Joins: jacobolus1 (n=jacobolu@pool-72-87-174-182.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  35. # [04:14] * Joins: jacobolus1_ (n=jacobolu@pool-72-87-174-252.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  36. # [04:20] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-72-87-174-59.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  37. # [04:28] * Quits: jacobolus1 (n=jacobolu@pool-72-87-174-182.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  38. # [04:32] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  39. # [04:41] * Joins: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25)
  40. # [04:48] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  41. # [04:52] * Joins: `_` (n=tuxpirat@soho.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com)
  42. # [04:57] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-72-87-174-131.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  43. # [05:04] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  44. # [05:05] * Parts: `_` (n=tuxpirat@soho.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com)
  45. # [05:10] * Quits: jacobolus1_ (n=jacobolu@pool-72-87-174-252.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  46. # [05:11] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@c-24-61-15-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  47. # [05:12] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@c-24-61-15-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  48. # [05:52] * Quits: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  49. # [06:29] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-79.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  50. # [06:38] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-79.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  51. # [06:59] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  52. # [07:15] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  53. # [07:41] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.58.207)
  54. # [07:46] <Hixie> http://groups.google.com/group/show-in-a-box/browse_thread/thread/2e53cb4c3df04578/b196aaf9676688fe?hl=en&q=html5#b196aaf9676688fe needs some subscribe-and-comment love
  55. # [07:46] <Hixie> if anyone's up for it
  56. # [07:48] <Hixie> and if anyone wants to explain to this guy that DRM really isn't part of the problem, be my guest. He event cites me but apparently believes my summary isn't an accurate representation of the situation. http://www.sourfizz.com/2007/12/15/html5-working-group-rejects-open-media-formats/
  57. # [08:01] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca/")
  58. # [08:19] * Joins: jacobolus1 (n=jacobolu@pool-72-87-174-69.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  59. # [08:30] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-72-87-174-131.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  60. # [08:49] <doublec> I've subscribed to the google groups one and will reply
  61. # [09:00] * Quits: jacobolus1 (n=jacobolu@pool-72-87-174-69.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  62. # [09:01] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-72-87-174-69.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  63. # [09:01] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-72-87-174-69.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Client Quit)
  64. # [09:17] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-195-74.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  65. # [09:30] <hsivonen> whoa. MathML 3.0
  66. # [09:31] <hsivonen> aaargh. they still use entities an *redefine* a bunch of them
  67. # [09:33] <hsivonen> hmm. the MathML 3.0 draft uses some mighty weird bolding in code. I wonder if the weirdness comes from TeX4ht or similar
  68. # [09:41] <Hixie> doublec: cool, thanks
  69. # [10:03] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  70. # [10:13] * om_out is now known as othermaciej
  71. # [10:42] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-195-74.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  72. # [10:51] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  73. # [11:05] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  74. # [11:26] * Joins: anne-mac (n=annevk@88.80-202-68.nextgentel.com)
  75. # [11:34] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  76. # [11:34] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  77. # [11:45] <Philip`> Is someone able to delete wiki pages, like http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Help:Contents and http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Brooklyn_indie_market ?
  78. # [11:47] <anne-mac> in theory
  79. # [11:49] * Philip` assumes it's limited to sysops
  80. # [11:50] <Philip`> Aha, thanks
  81. # [12:02] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  82. # [12:07] <anne-mac> you should ask lachy or so to get you upgraded to sysops
  83. # [12:19] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  84. # [12:24] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  85. # [12:29] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) (Client Quit)
  86. # [12:30] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  87. # [12:45] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-217-3.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  88. # [12:45] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-217-3.dsl.pipex.com)
  89. # [12:52] * Quits: anne-mac (n=annevk@88.80-202-68.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  90. # [13:23] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-85-165.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  91. # [13:23] <Philip`> index.php?pid=2&&opcje=a:1:{i:0;s:6:"wyszuk";}
  92. # [13:23] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9df3.l.pppool.de)
  93. # [13:24] <Philip`> What kind of syntax is that? It looks somewhat reminiscent of JSON, but it isn't
  94. # [13:34] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  95. # [13:38] * Joins: zcorpan_lap (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  96. # [13:40] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  97. # [13:40] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=w@79.163.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  98. # [13:40] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@79.163.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  99. # [13:41] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-135-224-200.range86-135.btcentralplus.com)
  100. # [13:41] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@79.163.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  101. # [13:43] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@79.163.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  102. # [14:05] * Joins: anne-mac (n=annevk@193.214.121.131)
  103. # [14:07] <inimino> Philip`: that's from PHP
  104. # [14:07] <tndH> yeah, it's output from serialize()
  105. # [14:07] <inimino> right
  106. # [14:09] <Philip`> Ah, thanks
  107. # [14:11] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-217-3.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  108. # [14:12] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-217-3.dsl.pipex.com)
  109. # [14:18] * Quits: zcorpan_lap (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  110. # [14:53] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  111. # [15:00] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("Pike!")
  112. # [15:04] <anne-mac> we need to update http://www.whatwg.org/specs/ ...
  113. # [15:05] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-217-3.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  114. # [15:06] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-217-3.dsl.pipex.com)
  115. # [15:06] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  116. # [15:06] <gsnedders> what a bizarre bug in Opera.
  117. # [15:07] * gsnedders looks at XMLHttpRequest
  118. # [15:07] * gsnedders notices other stuff
  119. # [15:08] <gsnedders> anne-mac: AFAIK nothing actually checks getreponseheader() matches field-name
  120. # [15:08] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Bizarre bugs are the best kind
  121. # [15:08] <Philip`> Does anybody use XPointer?
  122. # [15:08] <Dashiva> Like when setting a className on a table cell causes it to quadruple in width, even though the class doesn't exist
  123. # [15:09] <hdh> me, with this fx extension http://www.codedread.com/fxpointer/
  124. # [15:10] <gsnedders> Dashiva: ah. the bug I found is considerably less bizarre.
  125. # [15:10] <gsnedders> Dashiva: XMLHttpRequest.getResponseHeader("connection") always returns "" in Opera
  126. # [15:11] <Dashiva> There was also that one where innerHTML of responseXML had no closing tags
  127. # [15:12] <Dashiva> hm
  128. # [15:12] <Philip`> hdh: Ah, that looks potentially useful
  129. # [15:13] * Philip` is planning to use XPointer for an extension of X3D so you can include bits of uncooperative external X3D files
  130. # [15:13] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Must be some special condition you've found, it works in the general case. Got a testcase?
  131. # [15:13] <Philip`> (since the normal X3D inclusion mechanism seems to require cooperation and explicit exports, which is a pain)
  132. # [15:14] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  133. # [15:14] <gsnedders> Dashiva: <http://hg.gsnedders.com/cgi-bin/hgwebdir.cgi/http-parsing/file/29a9ec814634/tests/response/> — I need to make an actual test-case though
  134. # [15:16] <hdh> http://blog.codedread.com/archives/2007/10/30/fxpointer-link-exactly/ has a link to an userjs version for opera
  135. # [15:18] <Philip`> Hmm, looks like that only supports the element(confusing and fragile child node numbering) system
  136. # [15:18] <Philip`> whereas I want XPath because that's more fun
  137. # [15:19] <Philip`> (and XPath is supported by all the browsers I care about)
  138. # [15:19] <gsnedders> Dashiva: it may be only when the only header is a Connection: Close
  139. # [15:23] * Quits: anne-mac (n=annevk@193.214.121.131) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  140. # [15:24] <hdh> the userjs demo has an xpath, #xmlns(e=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml)xpointer(//e:li[4])
  141. # [15:26] <Philip`> hdh: Oh, oops, I was looking at the wrong .js file on that page
  142. # [15:28] * Philip` will try copying some of that code
  143. # [15:36] <gsnedders> http://http-parsing.gsnedders.com/#date-formats makes sense now I see http://support.microsoft.com/kb/234067
  144. # [15:53] <gsnedders> hmmm.
  145. # [15:59] <gsnedders> even odder things happen when you have the developer console open in Opera
  146. # [16:00] <gsnedders> and if there are other headers too
  147. # [16:07] <Philip`> Odd things happening in a web browser? That's unfortunately unsurprising :-(
  148. # [16:17] * gsnedders has reported the bug to Opera Software, but has been unable to write a minimalistic test case, so is just linking to the revision of the test suite
  149. # [16:19] * gsnedders writes in an email "specs be damned"
  150. # [16:22] * Philip` wonders if that email is about braces not being allowed in URIs
  151. # [16:22] <gsnedders> yeah
  152. # [16:24] * Philip` wonders if he should look for braces in other URI attributes
  153. # [16:25] * Philip` wonders if anyone has a list of what attributes take URIs
  154. # [16:25] <gsnedders> another way to make sure a spec never gets implemented by UAs: require HTML is to be parsed by SGML parsers.
  155. # [16:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: I tend to just search through the HTML 4.01 DTD for %uri
  156. # [16:25] <gsnedders> (which misses out non-conforming tags/attributes, but hey)
  157. # [16:28] <Philip`> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~pjt47/misc/uris-with-braces.txt
  158. # [16:29] <Philip`> Oops
  159. # [16:29] * Philip` fixes minor bug
  160. # [16:31] <Philip`> "If RFC 3986 defined what to do with non-conformant URIs" ... and if browsers implemented those requirements perfectly
  161. # [16:34] <gsnedders> :P
  162. # [16:35] <Dashiva> I don't think it would work even then
  163. # [16:36] <Dashiva> The issue is on the markup level, so either the UAs let it work (current situation), or they refuse to accept those URLs (not going to happen)
  164. # [16:38] <gsnedders> Dashiva: well, it depends what the defined handling was anyway
  165. # [16:39] <hsivonen> putting GUIDs in URIs strikes me as awful URI design
  166. # [16:40] <Philip`> I think clean URI design comes quite low on the prioritised list of problems that many authors have
  167. # [16:41] <gsnedders> "No, they rely on user agents not checking for syntactically correct URIs. They aren't using URIs." — reply to me
  168. # [16:42] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  169. # [16:43] <Philip`> Are they using syntactically incorrect URIs, or are such things defined to not exist?
  170. # [16:43] <gsnedders> I guess they don't exist.
  171. # [16:43] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  172. # [16:43] <gsnedders> (technically, if you take RFC 3986 literally, a string is either a conforming URI or it isn't — nothing else)
  173. # [16:43] <gsnedders> *it isn't a URI whatsoever
  174. # [16:44] <Philip`> It does sound sensible for other specs (like HTML) to define how non-conforming URIs are handled, since different cases will prefer it to be handled in different ways
  175. # [16:44] <gsnedders> WebKit for one handles it all in one place, regardless of where it has come from
  176. # [16:45] <gsnedders> Under the same argument HTML error handling should be defined by other specs (like HTTP)
  177. # [16:45] <Philip`> e.g. the URI RFC can't say that clicking on an HTML link with an invalid URI should log an error message and perform no action, because it's not its job to define anything about HTML
  178. # [16:46] <Dashiva> It seems like two different perspectives. One says "If it doesn't follow the rules, it's not an URI, who cares". The other says "This was used as an URI, but doesn't follow the rules, what do we do?"
  179. # [16:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: It can say to strip leading/trailing whitespace, and escape any other invalid characters as pct-encoded
  180. # [16:46] * Parts: dean5 (n=opera@121-72-5-121.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  181. # [16:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: which is what is used everywhere, AFAIK
  182. # [16:47] <Philip`> "everywhere" does not include HttpClient, it seems
  183. # [16:47] <Philip`> Invalid uri 'http://www.springer.com/east/home?SGWID=5-102-70-1033334-detailsPage=journal|description|description': Invalid query
  184. # [16:47] <Philip`> (is what it complains about)
  185. # [16:48] <gsnedders> s/everywhere/WebKit\/Gecko\/Trident\/Presto/ then
  186. # [16:48] <Philip`> Elsewhere: "GET failed: HTTP/1.1 508 unused" - huh?
  187. # [16:49] * gsnedders headdesks
  188. # [16:51] <Philip`> java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Invalid uri 'http://www.metmuseum.org/special/se_event.asp?OccurrenceId={A238C1BA-B848-11D3-936D-00902786BF44}': Invalid query
  189. # [16:51] <Philip`> Ah, HttpClient does complain about braces too
  190. # [16:53] <Philip`> Quite a few invalid redirects too
  191. # [16:53] <Philip`> Error on http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/autoren/dauthend.htm : Invalid redirect location: http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/?id=19&autor=Dauthendey, Max&a
  192. # [16:53] <Philip`> utor_vorname= Max&autor_nachname=Dauthendey
  193. # [16:53] <Philip`> (...minus the linebreak)
  194. # [16:56] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  195. # [16:59] <gsnedders> more silly arguments on digg.
  196. # [16:59] <gsnedders> equal crime rates in a place where guns are illegal and one where they aren't, therefore you're safer if you have a gun.
  197. # [17:00] <hdh> just ban bullets and let people use their metal butts
  198. # [17:01] <gsnedders> That's the Swiss solution, IIRC
  199. # [17:01] <Philip`> If guns are banned, more bank robbers will have to use bananas instead, which are a good source of potassium, so everyone wins
  200. # [17:01] <gsnedders> (everybody who has done national service there has a gun, but the ammunition is sealed — the prison sentences for breaking that seal are c. 20 years IIRC)
  201. # [17:34] <hdh> POST is non-idempotent, so why don't input[type=button][method=POST] have a pushed state like a:visited?
  202. # [17:37] <Philip`> hdh: Shouldn't it be the other way around? Since POST is non-idempotent, it's different every time you click the button, whereas :visited is meant for things that are the same as what you've seen before
  203. # [17:40] <hdh> oh yes
  204. # [17:49] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-195-74.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  205. # [17:54] * Quits: Oeighty (n=polx@ip-118-90-79-50.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  206. # [18:19] * Joins: grimeboy (n=grimboy@78.144.138.14)
  207. # [18:32] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  208. # [18:35] <hdh> what's the progress' "denominator punctuation character"?
  209. # [18:36] <gsnedders> hdh: follow the reference to "steps for finding one or two numbers of a ratio in a string"
  210. # [18:36] * Joins: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-74-76-204-174.nycap.res.rr.com)
  211. # [18:36] <G0k> hey all
  212. # [18:36] * Joins: zcorpan_lap (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  213. # [18:36] * Parts: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-74-76-204-174.nycap.res.rr.com)
  214. # [18:36] * Joins: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-74-76-204-174.nycap.res.rr.com)
  215. # [18:36] <G0k> args
  216. # [18:36] <hdh> gsnedders: thanks
  217. # [18:36] <gsnedders> G0k: see you like to stay around
  218. # [18:37] <G0k> fucking colloquy
  219. # [18:37] <G0k> it lets me join a channel
  220. # [18:37] <G0k> then forgets to echo anything in it
  221. # [18:37] <G0k> so i have to rejoin
  222. # [18:37] <gsnedders> no, it does output stuff into it
  223. # [18:37] <gsnedders> the bug is in WebKit :P
  224. # [18:37] <G0k> how does it work sometimes but not other times?
  225. # [18:37] <G0k> and is there some other workaround?
  226. # [18:37] <gsnedders> G0k: Clear the window
  227. # [18:38] <gsnedders> G0k: shortcut is cmd + k, no idea what menu
  228. # [18:38] <G0k> cmd+k?
  229. # [18:38] <G0k> ah
  230. # [18:38] <G0k> yeah
  231. # [18:38] <G0k> so i have an idea wrt server sent events
  232. # [18:39] <gsnedders> http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14171
  233. # [18:39] <G0k> ah
  234. # [18:39] <G0k> well. poop.
  235. # [18:39] <G0k> anyway
  236. # [18:40] <G0k> so 90% of the proposed uses of server sent events has been for chat-style stuff
  237. # [18:40] <G0k> so rather than invent that new dom event stream protocol
  238. # [18:40] <G0k> how about we just use XMPP?
  239. # [18:41] <gsnedders> G0k: and add DOM hooks to it?
  240. # [18:42] <G0k> well i mean you could send dom events as the payload
  241. # [18:42] <G0k> or just use (for example) the messaging and presence functionality already in it
  242. # [18:46] * Joins: anne-mac (n=annevk@c529c1b12.cable.wanadoo.nl)
  243. # [18:46] * Quits: anne-mac (n=annevk@c529c1b12.cable.wanadoo.nl) (Client Quit)
  244. # [18:46] <Philip`> Hmm, using X3D inline in XHTML doesn't actually seem like a stupid idea any more, when I can import stuff like meshes from external files
  245. # [18:50] <hdh> and some nice CPU; I can't try x3d out, nobody builds for 64bit gnu/linux
  246. # [18:50] * Quits: grimeboy (n=grimboy@78.144.138.14)
  247. # [18:51] <Philip`> hdh: Do you mean normal X3D plugins, or Mozilla's canvas-3d extension?
  248. # [18:52] <hdh> I mean the two builds on http://philip.html5.org/demos/canvas/3d/x3d/test.html
  249. # [18:52] * Joins: anne-mac (n=annevk@c529c1b12.cable.wanadoo.nl)
  250. # [18:53] <Philip`> Ah, okay
  251. # [18:53] <Philip`> (I've just been running on Windows, since I don't have useful graphics hardware on my Linux computer)
  252. # [18:54] <G0k> we can combine 3D canvases with server sent evetns
  253. # [18:54] <hdh> quake clone?
  254. # [18:54] <Philip`> I would assume the Mozilla extension could be built, but Mozilla is not the quickest thing to compile
  255. # [18:55] <Philip`> I've already done an online multiplayer FPS using Canvex :-)
  256. # [18:55] <zcorpan_lap> Philip`: pointer?
  257. # [18:55] <hdh> I got the video-enabled fx3 here; I'll see about the plugin
  258. # [18:55] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@209.79.152.151)
  259. # [18:55] <G0k> yeah 3d games ftw
  260. # [18:56] <Philip`> (using pipelined XHR (in Opera) and dynamically-inserted <script>s (in Firefox) to get improved latency)
  261. # [18:56] <Philip`> zcorpan_lap: It's at file:/// somewhere, unfortunately
  262. # [19:01] * Quits: anne-mac (n=annevk@c529c1b12.cable.wanadoo.nl) (Remote closed the connection)
  263. # [19:04] <zcorpan_lap> Philip`: ok
  264. # [19:10] * Philip` updates his code
  265. # [19:11] <Philip`> Now you can export some static meshes from e.g. Blender, and then write something like http://philip.html5.org/demos/canvas/3d/x3d/scene.x3d to combine them and animate them, which seems useful
  266. # [19:13] <Philip`> I think that mostly addresses my concerns over how anyone could make complex scenes, which have too much mesh data to be editable in a text editor and too much complex XML linking to edit in a 3D editor
  267. # [19:14] <Philip`> though now I need to find some way to import an external mesh and then inject some extra nodes into it, like replacing its <Material>
  268. # [19:15] * Philip` guesses XSLT might be too complex
  269. # [19:32] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@233.80-203-100.nextgentel.com)
  270. # [19:32] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@233.80-203-100.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  271. # [19:45] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  272. # [19:58] * Quits: G0k (n=hmason@cpe-74-76-204-174.nycap.res.rr.com)
  273. # [19:59] <Philip`> Oh, maybe XSLT isn't that bad after all
  274. # [20:00] * Joins: dolphinling_ (n=chatzill@rbpool6-76.shoreham.net)
  275. # [20:16] * Quits: zcorpan_lap (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  276. # [20:19] * Quits: dolphinling (n=chatzill@rbpool3-68.shoreham.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  277. # [20:33] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-79.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  278. # [20:49] * Quits: Thezilch (n=fuz007@ip68-111-154-116.sd.sd.cox.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  279. # [20:49] * Joins: webben (n=benh@82.152.16.177)
  280. # [20:58] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-79.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  281. # [20:58] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9df3.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  282. # [21:05] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-79.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  283. # [21:05] <Dashiva> So the spec says that whitespace "after body" should be treated as "in body", and that whitespace in "trailing end phase" should be treated as in "main phase", which becomes "in body".
  284. # [21:05] <Dashiva> "in body" says "Append the character to the current node"
  285. # [21:06] <Dashiva> So if you have whitespace between </body> and </html>, and after </html>, is that one or two whitespace text nodes at the end of body?
  286. # [21:13] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  287. # [21:36] <webben> Is there no way to hide a machine-friendly version of a human-friendly duration in HTML5 as currently drafted?
  288. # [21:37] <webben> e.g. in XHTML 2 as currently drafted one could do: <span content="PT2M43S">almost three minutes</span>
  289. # [21:38] <Dashiva> Isn't that what <time> does?
  290. # [21:38] <Philip`> <time> seems to only do absolute times
  291. # [21:38] <webben> A duration is not a datetime.
  292. # [21:39] <Philip`> Is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-common1.html#time-offsets relevant?
  293. # [21:40] <webben> Philip`: If there were a DURATION with a VALUE attribute, it might be. Otherwise, it's just a way of parsing such values.
  294. # [21:43] <webben> The context for this is I'm wondering how hAudio durations could be correctly represented in HTML5. This problem of hiding machine-friendly versions of human-friendly data is just going to recur again and again.
  295. # [21:44] <Philip`> Does hAudio need machine-friendly vs human-friendly versions? I would assume something like "5:02" or "1:58:21" would be easy for both machines and humans
  296. # [21:46] * Philip` doesn't know if there are i18n concerns with writing times in that format
  297. # [21:46] <webben> Philip`: Funnily enough, that's the argument I've just put to the list (so I'll wait and see counterexamples or complaints from parser implementers). There is certainly one case where authors might want to not use a format like that: when you're describing a piece of audio in a paragraph of extended descriptions.
  298. # [21:46] <webben> *description.
  299. # [21:47] <webben> e.g. "and the tedious concerto lasts <duration value="1:04:24">a whole hour</duration>!
  300. # [21:48] <webben> My argument is that the i18n problems in this particular case probably don't justify hacking around in HTML 4.01, but it would be nice to have a clean way to represent such things in HTML5.
  301. # [21:49] <webben> e.g. if you look at http://www.top100.cn/Product/Product.aspx?productid=S0093820000 Chinese users are apparently happy with arabic numerals in minutes and seconds for durations.
  302. # [21:52] <Philip`> Looks like there's not as much variation as with dates/times, which is nice
  303. # [21:52] * Philip` sees that page has "2007-3-5"
  304. # [22:04] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@m140f36d0.tmodns.net)
  305. # [22:18] * Joins: grimboy (n=grimboy@85-211-243-20.dsl.pipex.com)
  306. # [22:24] * Joins: zcorpan_lap (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  307. # [22:37] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-31-79.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  308. # [22:59] * Parts: zcorpan_lap (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  309. # [23:08] * weinig is now known as weinig|lateLunch
  310. # [23:12] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)")
  311. # [23:13] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@m140f36d0.tmodns.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  312. # [23:49] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  313. # [23:53] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  314. # [23:53] * weinig|lateLunch is now known as weinig
  315. # [23:58] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-195-74.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  316. # Session Close: Mon Dec 17 00:00:00 2007

The end :)