/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-12-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 21 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:37] <jwalden> Hixie: outlook for a fixed version of acid2 (regarding fonts and their effects on how the chin displays), unofficially most likely, is very low, correct?
  8. # [00:39] <Hixie> there is a zero chance of the acid2 test changing to handle fonts with metrics much different from Arial and Times New Roman
  9. # [00:39] <Hixie> but i'll try to make sure to avoid that mistake in acid3
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  11. # [00:41] <jwalden> Hixie: even unofficially, to be clear? I'm creating a reftest for it and dbaron's last nagging question is about the fonts issue
  12. # [00:41] <Hixie> it would take me days to work out what was going on and fix the test
  13. # [00:41] <jwalden> about what I expected
  14. # [00:42] <jwalden> good to know, thanks :-)
  15. # [00:42] <Hixie> i'm happy to host an unofficial fixed version if someone makes one
  16. # [00:42] <jwalden> heh
  17. # [00:42] <Hixie> but frankly it's easier just to add Times Now Roman and Arial to the list of requirements for running the test
  18. # [00:42] <Hixie> in practice those fonts are available royalty free
  19. # [00:42] <Hixie> so it's not a huge blocker
  20. # [00:43] <Hixie> not ideal, though, i agree
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  25. # [01:22] <jruderman> Hixie: is the requirement to *have* one of those fonts, or to have one of those fonts set as the default?
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  27. # [01:26] <Lachy> Yay! Spec to by published Jan 22
  28. # [01:26] <Lachy> (see mail from MikeSmith on public-html)
  29. # [01:26] <othermaciej> that's cool
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  31. # [01:30] <Lachy> Selectors API should be published as LC tomorrow too
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  37. # [02:01] <Hixie> jruderman: have them set as your default serif and sans-serif, i think
  38. # [02:02] <jruderman> Hixie: what do you think of making the test ask for those fonts, so if you have something else set as your default, you still see a pass?
  39. # [02:03] <Hixie> sounds fine to me
  40. # [02:03] <jruderman> jwalden: ^^
  41. # [02:04] <jwalden> too late, just committed -- followup commit, I guess!
  42. # [02:04] <jwalden> although...
  43. # [02:05] * jwalden wonders whether tinderboxen will all have the specific fonts by name
  44. # [02:05] <jwalden> I'm going to Pretend This Works until we find out it doesn't
  45. # [02:06] <jruderman> ok
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  62. # [02:57] <Hixie> Lachy: there's still gonna be a vote...
  63. # [02:58] <Lachy> yes, I realise that
  64. # [02:58] <Lachy> I just forgot to mention it in my blog entry
  65. # [03:09] * Hixie is doing a study of Server: headers and wonders how to parse "Server: <a href=http://forpsi.com>FORPSI</a> Apache"
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  67. # [03:17] * hdh read Opera's first request the wrong way; it means IE on other platforms, not another Windows N
  68. # [03:18] <hdh> argh, wrong again, gotta catch some sleep, sorry
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  70. # [03:19] <jwalden> pretend it doesn't exist -- that doesn't match the RFC 2616 productions ;-)
  71. # [03:19] <jwalden> (that's tongue-in-cheek if it wasn't clear)
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  73. # [03:26] * Philip` saw http://www.vsemi-deseti.cz/ with the <a href=http://forpsi.com> Server header
  74. # [03:28] <Philip`> (http://http-parsing.gsnedders.com/ parses it into first token "<a")
  75. # [03:29] <Philip`> gsnedders: You should probably sort by string when the frequencies are identical, to make the long list of 1s easier to scan through
  76. # [03:30] <Hixie> (yeah i parsed it as a <a token)
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  83. # [04:41] <Hixie> i love the accusation in http://www.w3.org/mid/476B3222.3060309@55.co.nz that we "hijacked the group"
  84. # [04:41] <Hixie> given the history of html5
  85. # [04:42] * takkaria gets a 404 for that url
  86. # [04:42] <Hixie> it'll work in a few minutes
  87. # [04:43] <Hixie> "Microsoft-IIS/5.0,Apache-Coyote/1.1" seems like an odd Server header to send
  88. # [04:45] <takkaria> I wonder what possesses people to write strings like that
  89. # [04:45] <takkaria> surely it's not for the same reason that UA strings are so screwy?
  90. # [04:45] <roc> it probably is
  91. # [04:45] <Hixie> there are a lot of "Microsoft-IIS/5.0,Apache-Coyote/1.1" headers in my data
  92. # [04:45] <roc> to work around baroque sniffing techniques
  93. # [04:46] <Hixie> ah that seems to be ebay.
  94. # [04:47] <takkaria> roc: server-sniffing seems like an odd kind of thing to do, though...
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  96. # [04:48] <roc> maybe
  97. # [04:48] <takkaria> mind, I do seem to remember reading about some weird secret pact IE and IIS use to speed up connections
  98. # [04:48] <Lachy> Hixie, that link doesn't work yet http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Dec/0090.html
  99. # [04:48] <roc> proxies do all kinds of stupid things
  100. # [04:48] <roc> but who knows
  101. # [04:48] <Hixie> that particular string seems to just be what ebay sends
  102. # [04:51] <takkaria> Hixie: out of interest, why the survey of Server strings?
  103. # [04:51] <Hixie> takkaria: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2007Dec/0060.html
  104. # [04:53] <takkaria> oh, ta
  105. # [04:53] * takkaria should subscribe to more of these w3 lists so he stops missing things like that
  106. # [04:53] <roc> but then you'd have to read them
  107. # [04:53] <Hixie> yeah i'm not sure you're missing out
  108. # [04:54] <takkaria> I've got pretty good at skimreading, it probably won't add much to my daily skim
  109. # [04:55] <Hixie> http://xn--74h.damowmow.com/ lists the mailing lists i read
  110. # [04:55] <Hixie> (second column)
  111. # [04:55] <Hixie> those that are faded out are the ones i am subscribed to
  112. # [04:56] <takkaria> impressive
  113. # [04:57] <Hixie> (there's probably many more that i don't care about that i'm subscribed to too)
  114. # [04:57] <Hixie> (and some i've just forgotten from the list, like appformats)
  115. # [04:57] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah, that's the one. i think someone should explain to him exactly what the history of html5 is :-)
  116. # [05:00] <takkaria> I don't mind reading through technical bits and reasonable discussion, it keeps the Web bit of my head active, and it's easy to skip through trolling and flamebait
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  124. # [06:07] <Hixie> hopefully appformats will appreciate my desire to use actual data
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  147. # [08:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: great post on browser and server adoption rates
  148. # [09:04] <hsivonen> "RDF is meant for babies and grandmothers alike; and its text formats read like a romance novel, only less racey."
  149. # [09:04] <hsivonen> (from www-archive)
  150. # [09:15] <hsivonen> Philip`: I believe the Chris Wilson's standards mode stats on the video were the same that he posted to public-html about IIRC 200 top sites
  151. # [09:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: phrasing content or heading kinda makes sense and is expressible in RELAX NG. The RELAX NG error messages would suck, though, in the case where there is a heading followed by something else. And that case is probably just rare enough not to justify special-casing.
  152. # [09:19] <hsivonen> (special-casing in the validator UI layer that is)
  153. # [09:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: semantically, for non-layout tables, phrasing-only <th>s should be fine
  154. # [09:24] <hsivonen> takkaria: you need to do server sniffing if you support HTTP pipelining
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  168. # [11:09] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cstyle%3E%20p%20%7B%20border%3Asolid%20%7D%20%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3EFoo%20%3Cspan%3E%3Col%3E%3Cli%3Ebar%3C%2Fli%3E%3C%2Fol%3E%3C%2Fspan%3E%20baz%3C%2Fp%3E seems to not work in ie and opera...
  169. # [11:12] <zcorpan> Hixie: while http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cstyle%3E%20a%20%7B%20display%3Ablock%3B%20border%3Asolid%20%7D%20%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Ca%20href%3D%3E%3Ch1%3Efoo%3C%2Fh1%3E%3Cp%3Ebar%3C%2Fp%3E%3C%2Fa%3E works in ie, opera, safari and (most of the time) firefox... blocks in <a> has, afaict, higher demand from authors than lists in <p>
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  172. # [11:47] <webben> hsivonen: What if you want buttons for sorting tables by table headers?
  173. # [11:47] <webben> (or hiding/showing columns)
  174. # [11:47] <hsivonen> webben: buttons are phrasing, aren't they?
  175. # [11:48] <webben> hsivonen: What if you want a whole form (e.g. an input for filtering plus a button to submit)?
  176. # [11:50] <webben> actually what would be really nice is to able to declare part of th the heading proper
  177. # [11:50] <webben> and be able to reserve part of it for UI additions
  178. # [11:50] <hsivonen> webben: wouldn't it be more likely that the author would want every column heading button to be part of one form (either wrapping the table or using the form='' attribute)?
  179. # [11:51] <webben> hsivonen: Not necessarily, since you might have other UI on the table that does other things (and might say use POST rather than GET)
  180. # [11:52] <webben> the hard part is working out how to get it so that only the phrasing part of th is treated as the heading
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  182. # [11:52] <webben> but I think that's a problem that will need to be solved regardless of what it's formal content model is
  183. # [11:53] <webben> I guess abbr actually does that
  184. # [11:53] <webben> <th abbr="Address">Address<form><input><button></button></form></th>
  185. # [11:59] <hsivonen> webben: is abbr='' supported by UAs? abbr='' has the same bidi issues as title=''
  186. # [12:03] <webben> hsivonen: Not sure: doesn't seem to have been tested: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableAccessibility. I agree it has the same issues as title. They both of the advantage of already existing.
  187. # [12:03] <webben> hsivonen: maybe a nested <short> element would be nicer.
  188. # [12:03] <hsivonen> webben: pre-existence is an advantage if it exists in impls and not just in specs
  189. # [12:04] <webben> it would also be good to know exactly how such UAs/AT deal with forms and form controls in th
  190. # [12:05] <webben> Another thing this would need solving for is footnotes. I had to create tables for a funds site where a lot of the TH's had footnotes. We don't have any footnote markup yet (awaiting on CSS WG as I understand it) but when we do it will need to support multiple sub-blocks).
  191. # [12:10] <webben> hsivonen: JAWS has supported it since at least version 5 apparently: http://www.unt.edu/ACSGAL/jaws50/files/tables_challenge.html
  192. # [12:14] <webben> I have a feeling WE doesn't support it, but I'd need to confirm that.
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  196. # [12:19] <hsivonen> webben: ok
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  199. # [12:42] <webben> hsivonen: Okay, a quick test Window-Eyes 6.1 supports it too. (Don't know about previous versions.)
  200. # [12:42] <webben> *quick test shows
  201. # [12:47] <hsivonen> webben: OK. have you checked whether this is on Hixie's plate to ponder?
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  203. # [12:48] <webben> hsivonen: Nah, I was just thinking incoherently in response to your content model suggestion above.
  204. # [12:49] <Ben`> Is the Acid2 test broken? For some reason when I view it in Opera (9.24) it looks messed up.
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  206. # [12:51] * zcorpan looks at http://simon.html5.org/css21-properties and finds that he wrapped the whole table in a <form>
  207. # [12:52] <zcorpan> Ben`: yeah, it's a resource that should be 404 but is now 200
  208. # [12:53] <hsivonen> who's in charge of the webstandards.org server? I left a comment on Molly's blog
  209. # [12:53] <Ben`> zcorpan: Ok, thanks.
  210. # [12:57] <webben> zcorpan: Those are all GET type queries, not a mixture of querying and modification.
  211. # [13:09] <hsivonen> gotta love it when you hit something like this in a library: // FIXME missing two end-of-buffer cases
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  213. # [13:18] <Lachy> krijn, the logs seem to be down. server isn't responding.
  214. # [13:20] <krijn> Lachy: mysql is playing stupid :/
  215. # [13:20] <krijn> They work here btw
  216. # [13:21] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  217. # [13:23] <hsivonen> so Ælfred2 is broken and Xerces is complex
  218. # [13:26] <hsivonen> Ælfred2 has just 2 classes (but they contain partly bogus code)
  219. # [13:26] <hsivonen> Xerces has layers and layers of interfaces and abstract classes
  220. # [13:26] * hsivonen hasn't even found the code the actually implements the Xerces tokenizer
  221. # [13:32] <hsivonen> if it weren't for DTDs, I could grab the HTML5 tokenizer and hack until I had an XML tokenizer...
  222. # [13:32] <hsivonen> bad, bad DTDs
  223. # [13:35] <hsivonen> Xerces in unapproachable. Writing my own DTD handling doesn't seem like smart use of effort.
  224. # [13:36] <hsivonen> so I'm stuck with Ælfred2
  225. # [13:37] <webben> hsivonen: Can't you use ngsgml to handle XML DTDs for you?
  226. # [13:37] <hsivonen> webben: it's not Java
  227. # [13:37] <hsivonen> webben: so no
  228. # [13:39] <webben> hsivonen: I'd be tempted to hook in a shell process and use its output.
  229. # [13:39] <webben> e.g. http://search.cpan.org/dist/XML-DTD/lib/XML/DTD.pm
  230. # [13:40] <webben> maybe that would be too slow, I dunno.
  231. # [13:41] <hsivonen> webben: more to the point, it doesn't make sense to use an SGML tool written in C when there are XML tools written in Java
  232. # [13:41] <webben> hsivonen: I thought you were saying those are broken or over-complex?
  233. # [13:42] <webben> are there other Java options?
  234. # [13:42] <hsivonen> webben: yes, but I don't see pulling in an SGML tool and slapping it on with duct tape an improvement
  235. # [13:42] <hsivonen> webben: I'm looking at Piccolo and Crimson now
  236. # [13:42] <hsivonen> webben: though I suspect Piccolo isn't suitable modifiable, either
  237. # [13:43] <hsivonen> there's already quite a bit of sunk cost in my fork of Ælfred2
  238. # [13:43] <webben> hmmm ... you can /generate/ DTDs... but that's probably not helpful ;) http://saxon.sourceforge.net/dtdgen.html
  239. # [13:44] <hsivonen> OK. Piccolo is seriously non-hackable for my purposes.
  240. # [13:44] <hsivonen> a big part of the problem is the need to tweak the source location reporting carefully
  241. # [13:45] <webben> http://matra.sourceforge.net/ ... don't suppose that's any use
  242. # [13:45] <hsivonen> out-of-the box XML parsers don't report the source location in a way that fits the highlight feature of Validator.nu
  243. # [13:45] <webben> api here: http://matra.sourceforge.net/javadoc/0.8b/index.html
  244. # [13:48] <hsivonen> webben: thanks. that one looks like an overkill, too
  245. # [13:48] <hsivonen> if Crimson doesn't turn out to be exceptionally good, I'll just bite the bullet and hack Ælfred2 until it does what I want
  246. # [13:57] <hsivonen> Crimson internals are remarkably similar to Ælfred2
  247. # [13:58] <hsivonen> these parsers would benefit greatly from an HTML5-style loop around a "data state"
  248. # [13:59] <webben> hsivonen: What's a "loop around 'a data state'"?
  249. # [13:59] <hsivonen> webben: I mean the loop you'd use to implement the HTML5 parsing algorithm data state
  250. # [14:06] <gsnedders> Can we get a new version of Christmas? Christmas 5?
  251. # [14:07] <hdh> the Bible 5 hasn't get to that part yet, chance to tweak it your way!
  252. # [14:09] <hsivonen> I wonder what would happen if the XML mode of Validator.nu had a non-conforming parser that just gave a fatal error upon a doctype
  253. # [14:12] <hsivonen> whew. I finally found the bug
  254. # [14:14] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  255. # [14:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: no works: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fgolem.ph.utexas.edu%2F~distler%2Fblog%2F&schema=http%3A%2F%2Fc.validator.nu%2Fdebug%2F&showsource=yes
  256. # [14:40] <hsivonen> s/no/now/
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  259. # [15:28] <Philip`> hsivonen: If that fatal-doctype thing happened, I'd have to fix http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/83/play.xhtml so that it still pointlessly validated :-(
  260. # [15:29] <Philip`> which might not be a bad thing
  261. # [15:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: yeah, that's a use case
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  269. # [16:14] <hsivonen> wow, I didn't even remember how much I had to patch the XML parser to make it do the right thing with character encodings
  270. # [16:15] * hsivonen is diffing the forked parser against the current upstream HEAD
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  282. # [17:48] * weinig|zZz is now known as weinig
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  288. # [18:38] <hsivonen> hmm. http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww-math.mit.edu%2F18.013A%2FMathML%2Fchapter07%2Fsection01.xhtml&parser=xmldtd&laxtype=yes
  289. # [18:44] <hsivonen> looks like a parser bug...
  290. # [18:46] <hsivonen> aagh. not a parser bug
  291. # [18:46] <hsivonen> Namespaces in XML spec silliness
  292. # [18:46] <hsivonen> :-(
  293. # [18:54] <gsnedders> Philip`: ping
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  300. # [19:59] <Philip`> gsnedders: Pung
  301. # [19:59] <gsnedders> Philip`: can you see how mange pages have [if IE] on them (i.e., have no version check?)?
  302. # [19:59] <Philip`> s/mange/many/ ?
  303. # [19:59] <gsnedders> yeah
  304. # [19:59] * gsnedders is a guy
  305. # [19:59] * gsnedders can't multitask
  306. # [20:00] <Philip`> I think I can
  307. # [20:00] <gsnedders> I can do somethings at once
  308. # [20:00] <Philip`> Is there an easy regexp to find all the various conditional comments?
  309. # [20:00] <Philip`> (since that's more interesting than simply looking for [if IE])
  310. # [20:00] <gsnedders> how about…
  311. # [20:01] <gsnedders> no, that won't work.
  312. # [20:01] <gsnedders> matching things like [if (gt IE 5)&(lt IE 7)] is hard
  313. # [20:02] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  315. # [20:02] <Philip`> <!(--\[[^]]*\]>|\[[^]]*\]--)> should get the relevant bits, I think
  316. # [20:02] * Philip` goes off to eat instead of doing this
  317. # [20:04] <gsnedders> Philip`: somethings use <![if lt IE 5]> with no --
  318. # [20:19] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
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  321. # [20:29] <Philip`> gsnedders: Okay, I'll try looking for <!-*\[[^]]*\]-*>
  322. # [20:29] <Philip`> (assuming there's no nested square brackets allowed)
  323. # [20:30] <Philip`> By the way, did you mention looking for Location headers a while ago?
  324. # [20:31] <Philip`> (If so, I can't find them trivially, since I've got HttpClient doing its normal automatic redirection-following and only saved the post-redirection headers)
  325. # [20:33] * Philip` wonders how to do regular expressions in Java
  326. # [20:34] <hsivonen> Philip`: java.util.regex?
  327. # [20:54] <alp> i'm tracking down a bug in WebKit's cairo canvas implementation. our IDL says the last parameter for arc() is "in boolean clockwise" while the html5 spec says "in boolean anticlockwise"
  328. # [20:57] <Philip`> alp: When I last looked, all browsers implemented it as anticlockwise
  329. # [20:57] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@nat/canonical/x-807b18b11e8b45da) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  330. # [20:58] <Philip`> (e.g. 2d.path.arc.angle.1 on http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html )
  331. # [20:59] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://philip.html5.org/data/ccs.html
  332. # [21:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: thx
  333. # [21:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: and ergh.
  334. # [21:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: exactly why they need a new switch: everything just tests for IE with no version :\
  335. # [21:05] <Philip`> Has anyone documented IE's quirks mode logic?
  336. # [21:05] <gsnedders> Philip`: for entering quirks mode?
  337. # [21:05] <Philip`> Yes
  338. # [21:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: MS publishes it somewhere
  339. # [21:06] * Philip` should try to ask questions that actually say what the question is, instead of just the general topic
  340. # [21:06] <Philip`> I remember it having weird stuff like matching against the string "NETSCAP", but never saw that in any documentation
  341. # [21:06] <gsnedders> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb250395.aspx#cssenhancements_topic2
  342. # [21:06] <gsnedders> ah
  343. # [21:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: try asking Chris Wilson or Tantek
  344. # [21:07] * gsnedders expects you'd get an answer from one
  345. # [21:08] * Joins: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  346. # [21:08] <Philip`> Ah, it was http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070714#l-67
  347. # [21:08] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  348. # [21:10] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Dec/0186.html
  349. # [21:12] * Joins: roc (n=roc@222-154-25-108.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
  350. # [21:15] * jruderman_ is now known as jruderman
  351. # [21:15] <alp> Philip`: thanks. (filed as http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16558 for reference)
  352. # [21:17] <Philip`> Maybe Microsoft could set up something like their phishing filter, so IE asks MS's server whether a given URI should be quirks or IE7-bugs or IE8-bugs or real-standards mode, and MS can quickly update their database to include sites which need buggy rendering and which are important enough and complex enough that their owner complains to MS instead of updating their site
  353. # [21:18] <jwalden> *cough* privacy *cough* </wonk>
  354. # [21:18] <jwalden> surely somebody'd bring that up
  355. # [21:19] <Philip`> Privacy is so 20th century
  356. # [21:20] <Philip`> Anyway, they could do it like Firefox instead where it downloads a database of broken sites and just does checks against that local list
  357. # [21:21] <hsivonen> An admin-configurable mode setting for an "intranet zone" would probably address many intranet concerns: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2007/11/intranet_explor.html
  358. # [21:22] <gsnedders> Philip`: Fx works like that? oh :P
  359. # [21:22] <hsivonen> doesn't Opera's JS fixup system download patching scripts?
  360. # [21:22] <roc> gsnedders: Fx does not work like that
  361. # [21:22] <roc> it works like that for phishing and malware detection, sure
  362. # [21:22] * gsnedders blames Philip`
  363. # [21:22] <roc> but we don't classify quirks-mode pages as malware :-)
  364. # [21:24] <Philip`> That's why I said "like Firefox" instead of "precisely the same as Firefox", continuing the analogy between phishing filters and quirks-mode filters :-)
  365. # [21:24] <jruderman> you could have said "like Firefox does for phishing" :)
  366. # [21:25] <othermaciej> if they always put unknown doctypes in full standards mode, that somewhat mitigates the damage of multiple quirks modes
  367. # [21:25] <othermaciej> but now I see why they want the HTML doctype to be ever-changing
  368. # [21:29] <jwalden> they should just say <!DOCTYPE html> is super-hyper-mega-standards mode where they can and will break non-conformant pages without prejudice in the name of supporting standards
  369. # [21:29] <jwalden> and evangelize the heck out of that message
  370. # [21:29] * roc grumbles that every time he hears about intranet compatibility issues Boeing is always the example
  371. # [21:30] <jwalden> planely their intranet needs improvement
  372. # [21:30] <hsivonen> that kind of policy would work better if the Web devs were kept aware of constant change by churning out a new release every 6 months or more frequently
  373. # [21:30] <roc> Boeing is the reason MS can't roll out IE security updates fast, Boeing is the reason there need to be a bazillion compat modes
  374. # [21:31] <roc> They should use some other examples
  375. # [21:32] <roc> I agree, we probably can't (and maybe shouldn't) prevent IE offering one mode per IE engine, but we should have an "all standards, all the time, always the latest IE engine" mode
  376. # [21:34] <roc> they're making an interesting bed for themselves though, when IE10 is shipping 4 entirely separate layout engines, especially for mobile and QA
  377. # [21:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: ccs.html says 2007-17-17 :P
  378. # [21:35] <Philip`> What happens when a super-hyper-mega-standards compliant thing like Dreamweaver or Wordpress uses <!doctype html> because their users expect them to be super-hyper-mega standards compliant, and then millions of separate people use those things, and then actually they didn't quite follow the standards (or the standards change) and they break?
  379. # [21:35] <jruderman> IE8 actually contains older layout engines? as opposed to having backwards-compatibility switches within its engine?
  380. # [21:35] <gsnedders> jruderman: yeah
  381. # [21:35] <jruderman> yikes
  382. # [21:35] <gsnedders> jruderman: IE7 has Trident IV too
  383. # [21:35] <Philip`> gsnedders: Uh
  384. # [21:35] <Philip`> gsnedders: You pass the observation test!
  385. # [21:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: no, I don't
  386. # [21:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: someone else on www-style does :)
  387. # [21:36] <jwalden> Philip`: that's where the evangelism comes in, and Wordpress at least requires updates for security anyway
  388. # [21:36] <gsnedders> jwalden: loads of old copies of WP out there
  389. # [21:36] <gsnedders> (WP, ergh)
  390. # [21:36] <jwalden> not ones anyone cares about :-)
  391. # [21:36] <jruderman> wordpress needs auto-update
  392. # [21:36] <Philip`> gsnedders: Fixed
  393. # [21:36] <jwalden> yes, it does
  394. # [21:37] <roc> jruderman: they might merge the engines somehow, but that sounds like a maintenance nightmare
  395. # [21:37] <hsivonen> WP's standards update track record isn't that great. case study: Atom
  396. # [21:38] * gsnedders mentions <http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-hackers/2007-May/012987.html> and makes no further comment on WP
  397. # [21:38] <gsnedders> roc: IE6 is still maintained for older Windows releases, so they update the engine that way anyway
  398. # [21:38] <gsnedders> roc: and the maintenance has nothing to do with the IE team at all :P
  399. # [21:39] <roc> I mean ongoing development maintainance, not maintenance of old versions
  400. # [21:40] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  401. # [21:42] <jruderman> roc: i don't understand what you're saying. if a different team takes care of maintaining the old versions, why does keeping them around cause "ongoing development maintainance" issues?
  402. # [21:44] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9d18.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  403. # [21:44] <gsnedders> IE8 Standards Mode sometimes/always (I wasn't totally clear on what Chris meant) needs a re-parse of the HTML, FWIW
  404. # [21:49] <roc> I'm talkiing about maintenance activities like cleaning up the code to lay the groundwork for future improvements
  405. # [21:50] <roc> basically a single code base that implements N "modes" of which at least N-1 must never change behaviour in any way sounds really hard to work with
  406. # [21:51] <roc> but the obvious alternative, shipping N different versions of the code, sounds bad too
  407. # [21:51] <roc> maybe some automatic tool takes the N versions and weaves them together, sharing identical code where possible...
  408. # [21:51] <hober> roc: the worst part is the burden that could very well place on non-IE browsers, who might also be required to implement all N modes (they already implement 3? 4?)
  409. # [21:52] <roc> hober: no
  410. # [21:52] <hsivonen> I wouldn't be too surprised if the CSS formatter of IE8 new standards mode were separate code and the quirks mode and IE7 standards mode CSS formatters were one thing with conditional branches
  411. # [21:52] <roc> because at least in the case of Gecko, we have set expectations appropriately
  412. # [21:52] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Chris has said publicly that IE7 has both Trident IV and Trident V in it
  413. # [21:52] <roc> hsivonen: yeah
  414. # [21:53] <gsnedders> which implies two things
  415. # [21:53] <roc> oh OK, never mind then
  416. # [21:53] <gsnedders> (where Chris == Chris Wilson)
  417. # [21:53] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok
  418. # [21:53] <roc> the problem is not so much IE8 but that the pain must increase with every release
  419. # [21:53] <hober> roc: right. where does that leave the web in 10, 15, 20 years?
  420. # [21:53] <roc> hmm, the tool approach would be interesting, but would have its own limitations and surprises
  421. # [21:54] <gsnedders> I think part of their issue is they don't want to reimplement anything because people rely on bugs they might not kow about
  422. # [21:54] * Parts: placey (n=placey@c-71-233-236-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  423. # [21:54] <roc> hober: it leaves IE in a pickle and Gecko and Webkit looking better and better, I reckon
  424. # [21:54] <hober> roc: that's the optimistic outcome, sure
  425. # [21:54] <roc> the frozen intranets will either be stuck with IE swiss-army-knife or they'll figure out how to modernize themselves
  426. # [21:55] <roc> the frozen intranets are really a different thing from the public Web
  427. # [21:55] <hober> right, I'm completely uninterested in such intranets
  428. # [21:55] <roc> which is why I suggested in my blog Microsoft fork IE
  429. # [21:55] <hsivonen> It'll be interesting to see what the IE8 new standards more DOM will be like
  430. # [21:56] <hsivonen> for example, will it be the old one but the non-tree links turned off?
  431. # [21:56] <hsivonen> I'd expect a new CSS formatter to want a tree DOM
  432. # [21:56] <gsnedders> I'm wondering if they're doing one major thing a release: CSS parsing in IE7, layout engine in IE8…
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  438. # [22:12] <krijn> gsnedders: you really seem to like WP ;)
  439. # [22:12] <gsnedders> krijn: :P
  440. # [22:13] * krijn doesn't like it either
  441. # [22:13] <krijn> Too bloated
  442. # [22:14] <krijn> So in stead I've built my own bloated thing :\
  443. # [22:14] <gsnedders> I used Habari 0.4-alpha :P
  444. # [22:15] * Philip` wonders what the least bloated blog management system could be
  445. # [22:15] <krijn> QMS!
  446. # [22:15] <krijn> ;>
  447. # [22:15] <krijn> Not open source though
  448. # [22:16] <Philip`> Maybe a blog could just an Atom file, which you edit in your favourite text editor and then upload with FTP or whatever, and then the system checks it in the feed validator and publishes it if everything's okay
  449. # [22:16] <Philip`> s/just an/just be an/
  450. # [22:17] <hober> Philip`: that's almost exactly what my blog software is
  451. # [22:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: PyBlosxom?
  452. # [22:17] <Philip`> hober: Why only "almost"? :-)
  453. # [22:17] <hober> basically, I have a directory tree which contains a bunch of files, some of which are atom entry documents.
  454. # [22:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: that uses just files, not Atom
  455. # [22:17] <hober> the publish script is basically an atom-aware cp -r
  456. # [22:18] <Philip`> *Multiple* files? That's just bloat :-(
  457. # [22:18] <hober> heh.
  458. # [22:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: less to send to the feed validator, though :P
  459. # [22:23] <hober> yeah, were it a single file, it would be about 100,000 lines
  460. # [22:28] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  461. # [22:29] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no) (Client Quit)
  462. # [22:29] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no)
  463. # [22:38] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  464. # [22:44] <gsnedders> Bebo is so awesome. I just got a java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException.
  465. # [22:44] <jwalden> that got mentioned in the web2.0 video, dinnit?
  466. # [22:56] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@m810f36d0.tmodns.net)
  467. # [23:06] <hsivonen> jwalden: the Richter Scales video? yes.
  468. # [23:08] * Joins: Thezilch[FH] (n=fuz007@wsip-64-147-23-102.oc.oc.cox.net)
  469. # [23:08] * Quits: Thezilch (n=fuz007@wsip-64-147-23-102.oc.oc.cox.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  470. # [23:27] <Hixie> man the idea that we can get two complete and correct implementations of html5 in 3 years is so funny
  471. # [23:27] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@5352D922.cable.casema.nl)
  472. # [23:27] * Philip` sees http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=832 for a way to handle degradation of http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-December/013493.html
  473. # [23:28] <hsivonen> annevk: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=409404 Any comment on Opera behavior?
  474. # [23:29] <Philip`> I assume it needs two implementations which each do the entire spec correctly, rather than n implementations where each feature is correct in >= 2 of them?
  475. # [23:29] <annevk> svg:focusable is wrong
  476. # [23:29] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  477. # [23:29] <annevk> it's focusable in no namespace
  478. # [23:29] <othermaciej> IE ships multiple engines? really?
  479. # [23:29] <othermaciej> (was reading scrollback)
  480. # [23:30] <Hixie> IE8 will have three, as i understand it
  481. # [23:30] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  482. # [23:30] <Hixie> IE8, IE7, and IE5.5
  483. # [23:30] <annevk> hopefully Opera works nothing like what's suggested in that bug
  484. # [23:30] <annevk> if it does it would be a bug
  485. # [23:31] <annevk> (and I don't think Opera does, as far as I know we we "ignore" version= and baseProfile=)
  486. # [23:31] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  487. # [23:31] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, i'm really tempted to just tell people to use a quick script for that, given how easy it is to do
  488. # [23:31] <Hixie> Philip`: it really doesn't seem groundbreaking enough to warrant browser-side support
  489. # [23:33] <annevk> hsivonen, I don't think I need to comment on it, right?
  490. # [23:34] <hsivonen> annevk: no, I'll mention your opinion
  491. # [23:38] <hsivonen> I guess I should allow focusable in Validator.nu in due course even though the base schema is 1.1
  492. # [23:38] <hsivonen> ARIA, too
  493. # [23:40] <annevk> are people sure IE actually ships with _different_ layout engines?
  494. # [23:41] * annevk thought the APIs had some type of case/switch stuff for different versions
  495. # [23:41] <gsnedders> annevk: Chris Wilson ha said multiple times.
  496. # [23:41] <gsnedders> *has
  497. # [23:42] * Parts: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-135-224-200.range86-135.btcentralplus.com)
  498. # [23:42] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-135-224-200.range86-135.btcentralplus.com)
  499. # [23:42] <gsnedders> cmd+w on wrong tab
  500. # [23:42] <gsnedders> ergh.
  501. # [23:45] <annevk> hmm ok
  502. # [23:45] <annevk> that doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me
  503. # [23:46] <annevk> unless they can lock a large set of pages into each engine...
  504. # [23:47] * gsnedders waves g'nite
  505. # [23:47] <Philip`> hsivonen: The "DOM Consistency" principle seems to be about consistency of the DOM from the perspective of scripts, and about minimising syntactic differences in the HTML and XHTML representations of the same DOM; so I'm not sure how it's relevant to an author requirement to use some XHTML features unless you have a good reason otherwise (where e.g. needing to convert the document to HTML is a good reason)
  506. # [23:47] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-135-224-200.range86-135.btcentralplus.com) ("404: Not Found")
  507. # [23:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'm not saying XHTML5 authors should put stuff in script. I'm saying we shouldn't say that they shouldn't in normative language
  508. # [23:49] <othermaciej> I'm curious how the multiple engine thing will work out for their promised future "desktop grade" browser for Windows Mobile
  509. # [23:49] <othermaciej> maybe it will include only one of the engines
  510. # [23:50] <hsivonen> when was such a browser promised?
  511. # [23:51] <Philip`> hsivonen: That sounds reasonable to me; I don't understand the reference to DOM Consistency, though
  512. # [23:53] <hsivonen> Philip`: it permits doing stuff that you can do in HTML5 also in XHTML5
  513. # [23:53] <hsivonen> in DOM terms
  514. # [23:58] <Philip`> hsivonen: DOM Consistency sounds like it's only talking about UA conformance, and not about document conformance at all - it's only relevant to the design of the HTML parsing algorithm (HTML and 'equivalent' XHTML should be parsed the same) and the design of the HTML language (since HTML-serialised DOMs should look as similar as possible to XHTML-serialised DOMs)
  515. # Session Close: Sat Dec 22 00:00:00 2007

The end :)