/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-12-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Dec 22 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <hsivonen> Philip`: it's also relevant to not having gratuitously different conformance requirements so that you can take XHTML5 without foreign namespaces on throw it at a serializer that gives you HTMl5
  4. # [00:01] <Philip`> ...but it seems the problem may be with what 'equivalent' means - if HTML5 said you shouldn't use <script> in XHTML, then <script type=image/svg+xml><svg .../></script> and <svg xmlns="http://whatever">...</svg> would be the equivalent representations of the same high-level concept
  5. # [00:02] <Philip`> (which is a significant syntactic difference between the 'same' document in two serialisations)
  6. # [00:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: I don't consider those equivalent in DOM terms
  7. # [00:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: not even on a higher level as one requires a script to aid it
  8. # [00:03] <Philip`> (Replace "svg" with "some-custom-xml-dialect", so in both cases it's a lump of unknown XML which requires a script to aid it)
  9. # [00:06] <Philip`> <html lang=en> and <html xml:lang="en"/> are not equivalent in DOM terms, but they are conceptually equivalent at a slightly higher level, and that kind of difference is what DOM Consistency says should be minimised
  10. # [00:07] <Philip`> so similarly <script type=custom-stuff> and <custom-stuff xmlns="..."> are not equivalent in DOM terms, but are equivalent at a higher level, so that difference should be minimised too
  11. # [00:08] <Philip`> so I think I agree with your email :-)
  12. # [00:09] <hsivonen> good. :-)
  13. # [00:11] <annevk> so I watched parts of the IE8 Acid2 video
  14. # [00:12] <annevk> there's a scrollbar in their rendering...
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  18. # [01:03] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=409436 - whitespace in gecko - someone should track that
  19. # [01:03] <annevk> maybe i should point to html5...
  20. # [01:05] * annevk -> bed
  21. # [01:11] <Philip`> Hmm, silly Gentoo
  22. # [01:11] <Philip`> I upgraded Opera to 9.25, and now when I click on the Opera icon it launches Opera 9.50 Alpha inside Wine
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  28. # [01:36] <kig> http://glimr.rubyforge.org/cake/canvasmage.html hihih
  29. # [01:37] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  30. # [01:38] <Philip`> kig: Doesn't work in Opera 9.2 :-(
  31. # [01:38] <Philip`> "Syntax error while loading: line 55 of linked script at http://glimr.rubyforge.org/cake/canvasmage.js : }"
  32. # [01:39] <Philip`> (maybe due to a trailing comma in a { ... } list?)
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  34. # [01:40] <kig> thanks, took it out
  35. # [01:40] <Philip`> kig: Works better now - thanks :-)
  36. # [01:40] <Philip`> The creature looks pretty broken in Opera, but that's probably just arc bugs
  37. # [01:41] <kig> circle strokes with gaps and visible polygon segments?
  38. # [01:42] <Philip`> kig: http://tinyurl.com/3y9kp3
  39. # [01:43] <kig> dfsdg tinyurl data urls don't quite work in firefox
  40. # [01:43] <Philip`> Use Opera ;-)
  41. # [01:44] <inimino> with its buggy <canvas>? ;-)
  42. # [01:44] * Philip` ought to find a better way of uploading small files
  43. # [01:44] <kig> wow, that is messed up
  44. # [01:44] <Philip`> inimino: It's not really more buggy than anyone else's <canvas> :-)
  45. # [01:45] <inimino> Philip`: Perhaps, but when I tried to use <canvas> last the only bugs I hit were in Opera
  46. # [01:46] <jwalden> kig: dunno if you have time, but is tinyurl trying to 302 redirect to them or something?
  47. # [01:46] <kig> jwalden: it gives 301 with the data: url
  48. # [01:46] <jwalden> I seem to recall that intentionally not being supported, sec
  49. # [01:46] <kig> which looks funny when trying to wget
  50. # [01:46] <inimino> (specifically just arc() stuff, that was about as far as I got)
  51. # [01:48] <kig> Philip`: does it look any better now?
  52. # [01:48] <Philip`> kig: It looks one pixel high
  53. # [01:49] <kig> eh?
  54. # [01:50] <Philip`> The example images are about 640x1 and 320x1 and 1200x1, like lines with some yellow/black/white gradient
  55. # [01:50] <kig> ghhh
  56. # [01:50] <Philip`> (By the way, your .json files aren't really JSON because you'd need to quote the key strings)
  57. # [01:51] <jwalden> kig: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211999#c19 seems to say it's fixed in 3.0, doesn't sound like it'll be fixed for 2.0 unless somebody complains
  58. # [01:52] <kig> jwalden: alright
  59. # [01:52] <Philip`> jwalden: Can I complain? I like having a tinyurlfs - but then again I like telling people to use Opera so maybe it's good that FF2 doesn't support it ;-)
  60. # [01:53] <jwalden> Philip`: complain in the bug if you want :-)
  61. # [01:53] <jwalden> redirecting to data URLs isn't especially mainstream, so I'm not super-worried if it doesn't work, to be honest
  62. # [01:54] <Philip`> kig: By the way, you could perhaps use ctx.__defineSetter__('fillStyle', ...) in Firefox and Opera 9.5 (and maybe others?) to catch people saying 'ctx.fillStyle = ...', instead of requiring 'ctx.setFillStyle(...)'
  63. # [01:54] <jwalden> think Safari added getter/setter support recently, dunno if it's in 3 or not
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  65. # [01:56] <kig> Philip`: yeah, that'd be nice
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  68. # [01:58] <Philip`> kig: It's no longer one pixel tall - it looks about the same as it did before
  69. # [01:58] <Philip`> s/about/exactly/
  70. # [01:58] <kig> one pixel tall was using "draw, insert canvas, remove image"
  71. # [01:58] <Philip`> s/exactly/exactly except for a little bit around the beak/
  72. # [01:59] <kig> now it's using "draw, img.src = canvas.toDataURL()"
  73. # [01:59] <Hixie> acid2 is apparently fixed
  74. # [01:59] <Philip`> kig: Hmm, odd
  75. # [01:59] <kig> but i'm doing hackery with copying the image style to the canvas style, so that might screw things up
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  77. # [02:02] <kig> Philip`: try now
  78. # [02:02] <Philip`> kig: By the way, the CanvasMage thing is quite neat :-)
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  80. # [02:04] <Philip`> It looks slightly more broken in Opera, since the red rectangle is now a wide triangle
  81. # [02:05] <kig> alright, that's screwed up
  82. # [02:05] <kig> i'll have to try and debug on opera tomorrow
  83. # [02:05] <Philip`> Oh
  84. # [02:05] <Philip`> It's random
  85. # [02:05] <Philip`> (It tends to change each time I reload the page)
  86. # [02:06] <Philip`> Probably same bug as http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/operanondet.html which gets rendered as http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/operanondet.png (but differently each time you reload)
  87. # [02:07] <kig> okay, opera gets the wtf award of the day
  88. # [02:09] <Philip`> That's fixed in 9.50
  89. # [02:09] <Philip`> The whole image looks correct in 9.50, except for some gaps where curves don't join up neatly
  90. # [02:10] * Philip` would probably suggest giving up on Opera 9.2 because it's far too broken
  91. # [02:11] <kig> yeah :/
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  93. # [02:11] <Philip`> (or emulate the curve-drawing functions with JS)
  94. # [02:12] <kig> i thought of breaking circles into four beziers but then i found another shiny bauble
  95. # [02:12] <Philip`> Hmm, I thought it was impossible to represent circles as Beziers, but maybe I'm misremembering
  96. # [02:13] <Philip`> http://pages.sbcglobal.net/tymmott-smith/Math/Bezier.html - "we cannot get a circle with a Bezier curve" - ah, I wasn't wrong
  97. # [02:13] <Philip`> though maybe you can approximate something good enough
  98. # [02:14] <kig> flash (iirc) uses quadratic curves for everything
  99. # [02:14] <Philip`> Flash doesn't have to worry about interoperability or about passing annoying test cases that try to ensure curves are exactly the right shape ;-)
  100. # [02:16] <kig> did some tests with canvasmage animations, but they tend to be a bit big. 300k for 50 frames uncompressed, 30k gzipped
  101. # [02:17] <kig> 1k procedural
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  103. # [02:18] <Philip`> kig: What is the advantage of saving images/animations rather than just re-executing the original canvas script every time someone views it?
  104. # [02:19] <kig> faster to execute, more evil
  105. # [02:21] <Philip`> Maybe you could make the output much smaller by limiting the number of decimal places in all the floats, since those won't compress well
  106. # [02:21] <kig> e.g. image/animation based on heavy physics simulation, might take hours to generate, but the command array runs at 60fps
  107. # [02:23] <kig> yeah, let's see
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  109. # [02:27] * Philip` doesn't like how he keeps writing <script src=...> and forgetting the </script>
  110. # [02:29] <kig> stripping decimals might save 10-20%, but circles get gaps
  111. # [02:30] <Philip`> Can you strip fewer decimals?
  112. # [02:39] <kig> no visible gaps with four decimals, 10% smaller gzipped
  113. # [02:40] <kig> (599b vs 664b, i need a bigger test file)
  114. # [02:40] <Philip`> Try recording the output of Canvex ;-)
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  116. # [02:41] <kig> no image support yet :<
  117. # [02:46] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  118. # [02:51] <kig> but hmm, maybe it'll work. let's see
  119. # [02:53] <kig> would have to replace render_ctx with a RecordingContext and add frame markers to the command stream
  120. # [02:53] <jruderman> Philip`: i forget the </script> even for inline scripts
  121. # [02:53] <jruderman> Philip`: i wish firefox would warn me instead of just showing a blank page
  122. # [02:54] <jruderman> Philip`: and i'm the one who insisted on that behavior :P
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  152. # [10:29] <annevk> hmm, I didn't even get that bug about version= and baseProfile=
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  170. # [13:09] <salty-horse> hi. seen this? http://stephenfry.com/blog/?p=32
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  173. # [13:10] <annevk> "due out soon"
  174. # [13:10] <annevk> heh
  175. # [13:11] <annevk> seems also that WHATWG is now a synonym for W3C...
  176. # [13:12] <salty-horse> you're welcome to comment with corrections
  177. # [13:12] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@90-230-96-131-no112.tbcn.telia.com)
  178. # [13:14] <Philip`> "all subscribe to the Working Hypertext Application Technology Working Group mailing list (whatwg.org/mailing-list#specs) and exert pressure" - hmm, that probably won't have the desired effect
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  180. # [13:16] <hsivonen> ouch. I'm a bit disappointed. I expected more accurate posts on stephenfry.com
  181. # [13:17] <Lachy> omg, that's the most innacurate crap I've read in a while
  182. # [13:17] <Lachy> since when did Nokia claim any ownership of ogg?
  183. # [13:18] <Lachy> and Apple have explicitly stated that they're not pushing their own formats
  184. # [13:19] <Philip`> Lachy: What someone explicitly states is not necessarily what they are really doing
  185. # [13:19] <Philip`> so saying "Apple doesn't like ..." is not clearly wrong (whereas saying "Apple says it doesn't like ..." would be, since they don't say that)
  186. # [13:21] <Philip`> (and saying "Nokia claims ownership of some elements of Ogg" is wrong since they haven't claimed that (as far as I'm aware))
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  190. # [13:53] <kig> heh, svgtext.svg is 64k, 27k gzipped. svgtext.json is 79k, 22k gzipped
  191. # [14:03] <hdh> heh, that stephenfry post also conflates open source and open standard, not a good move
  192. # [14:11] <Dashiva> If it's not open source, it's not open at all!
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  194. # [14:13] <hdh> some business people twitch at open source (see "cancer"); but none can dispute the words "open standard"
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  196. # [14:36] <tndH> okay, so now guardian readers think html 5 is evil?
  197. # [14:37] <gsnedders> tndH: what? in today's? where?
  198. # [14:37] <tndH> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/dec/22/internet.digitalmedia
  199. # [14:38] <tndH> (same as the stephenfry.com link before)
  200. # [14:39] <hsivonen> well, the silver lining is that now the WHATWG list is noted on the Guardian
  201. # [14:39] <gsnedders> We're in print!
  202. # [14:40] <hsivonen> (if you believe that all publicity is eventually good)
  203. # [14:43] <gsnedders> Hey, more uninformed emails!
  204. # [14:52] <tndH> all i can imagine while reading through the stephen fry article is the QI siren going off and deducting him 10 points
  205. # [15:09] <salty-horse> are you going to email the guardian/post a comment?
  206. # [15:13] <maikmerten> err....
  207. # [15:13] <maikmerten> "The problem is that Nokia claims ownership of some elements of Ogg, which is essentially the file format for the streaming and delivery part of the codec"
  208. # [15:13] <maikmerten> that is... not correct
  209. # [15:14] <maikmerten> Nokia to my knowledge never made such a claim
  210. # [15:21] <gsnedders> salty-horse: the issue is most of the copies of that article will be in print, and already sold.
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  212. # [15:22] <maikmerten> actually here in Germany HTML5 is in print, too
  213. # [15:22] <maikmerten> in Magazin für Computertechnik (c't)
  214. # [15:22] <maikmerten> again mostly about <video> and codecs
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  216. # [15:24] <Philip`> There will eventually be a point at which we have enough bandwidth and processing power to store video losslessly at the maximum resolution the human eye can perceive, so this codec thing is only a temporary problem
  217. # [15:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: the total bandwidth needed once we get more and more online would be huge, though
  218. # [15:26] <maikmerten> and even then there's the question why anyone would want to be so wasteful with resources
  219. # [15:26] <salty-horse> gsnedders, he could issue a clarification in the next column -- it's not the first time a print article was wrong
  220. # [15:26] <gsnedders> salty-horse: that's true
  221. # [15:26] <maikmerten> video can be compressed by a factor > 10 without anyone noticing anything
  222. # [15:26] <maikmerten> (usual factor 100 and bigger)
  223. # [15:26] * gsnedders is half asleep doing too much
  224. # [15:27] * gsnedders sigha
  225. # [15:27] <gsnedders> *sighs
  226. # [15:27] <gsnedders> IE6 is still the most common UA to my site :\
  227. # [15:27] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  228. # [15:27] * gsnedders blames search referrers such as "why does life get complicated when you think you gay"
  229. # [15:28] <takkaria> hah
  230. # [15:28] <gsnedders> (OK, that only got one, but you get the ideA)
  231. # [15:28] <gsnedders> *idea
  232. # [15:32] <jwalden> hsivonen: too bad Hixie actually didn't think to make it a task force instead of a working group ;-)
  233. # [15:33] <gsnedders> WTF?
  234. # [15:33] <gsnedders> (as in WHATTF?)
  235. # [15:35] <jwalden> yes, exactly
  236. # [15:35] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  237. # [15:35] <jwalden> I remember him saying one time that if he'd thought of it he'd have done it :-)
  238. # [15:38] <hsivonen> jwalden: well, fantasai has whattf.org
  239. # [15:38] <takkaria> I dislike Christmas; people stop posting so often to mailing lists and I find myself reading slashdot instead
  240. # [15:38] <jwalden> well-played!
  241. # [15:46] * Joins: digx (n=rick@c-76-109-201-140.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
  242. # [15:52] <hsivonen> so I'm thinking that I should provide a setting for filtering out foreign namespaces
  243. # [15:52] <hsivonen> should it filter out tags or the entire subtree rooted at a dropped element?
  244. # [15:53] <hsivonen> I'm leaning towards dropping the entire subtree
  245. # [15:53] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  246. # [15:53] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  247. # [15:53] <hsivonen> (consider foreign metadata elements in <head> or SVG <metadata> and what would happen if only text content were left)
  248. # [16:05] * Joins: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  249. # [16:07] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  250. # [16:07] * Quits: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Client Quit)
  251. # [16:32] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
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  253. # [16:58] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  254. # [17:02] * gsnedders is amazed that Lachy is actually twittering about snow in Norway
  255. # [17:07] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  256. # [17:14] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
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  258. # [17:19] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  259. # [17:26] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@207.210.58.93)
  260. # [17:27] * Quits: Yudai (n=Yudai@p92097e.tokyte00.ap.so-net.ne.jp) ("SIGTERM received; exit")
  261. # [17:27] * Joins: Yudai (n=Yudai@p92097e.tokyte00.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  262. # [17:43] <annevk> html5.org got over a 100.000 page requests on 11 December
  263. # [17:44] <annevk> normal amount is about 800-1000 a day
  264. # [17:44] * gsnedders blinks, then realises annevk is doing the European norm of . being a thousand separator
  265. # [17:47] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Lachy is new in town :)
  266. # [17:48] <gsnedders> Dashiva: I know, it still seems odd.
  267. # [17:48] * gsnedders wants snow here (where here = east coast of Scotland)
  268. # [17:48] * takkaria wants snow in the middle of Manchester, UK, but it's not going to happen. :)
  269. # [17:49] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.94.8) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  270. # [17:49] * annevk would like 20 degrees in NL
  271. # [17:49] <gsnedders> haven't had proper snow here since 1997
  272. # [17:49] <annevk> (Celcius)
  273. # [17:50] <gsnedders> we have 275K here
  274. # [17:51] <gsnedders> (i.e., 2°C)
  275. # [17:55] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-SEVENTY-TWO.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
  276. # [18:26] * Joins: colione (n=colione@cust-155.geab-041-1.ephone.se)
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  280. # [19:17] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-135-224-200.range86-135.btcentralplus.com)
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  283. # [19:39] * Parts: salty-horse (n=ori@pdpc/supporter/active/salty-horse) ("Leaving")
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  289. # [20:13] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-208-38.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  290. # [20:20] * Quits: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  300. # [22:09] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  301. # [22:11] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L96e0.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
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  310. # Session Close: Sun Dec 23 00:00:00 2007

The end :)