/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-12-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Dec 23 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:04] <gsnedders> oh I do love PHP. randomly using a 1-based array for unpack() :\
  6. # [00:06] <hdh> on PHP, I just came across this, http://zestyping.livejournal.com/233348.html
  7. # [00:06] <gsnedders> hdh: not taught? it shouldn't exist!
  8. # [00:07] <hdh> http://zestyping.livejournal.com/124503.html?thread=690519#t690519 ← is that you ?-P
  9. # [00:07] <gsnedders> bo
  10. # [00:07] <gsnedders> *no
  11. # [00:07] <hdh> :)
  12. # [00:09] * gsnedders wonders whether to rely on PHP have this bizarre behaviour forever or not
  13. # [00:11] <Philip`> Regardless of that particular bizarre behaviour, it's probably quite safe to rely on PHP having some bizarre behaviour forever, and thus use Perl or Python or Ruby or anything else :-)
  14. # [00:11] <gsnedders> no, Philip`, the PHP devs claim to not break b/c then break it in some bizarre way that breaks everything :)
  15. # [00:11] <gsnedders> (and I don't have choice about programming language, sadly)
  16. # [00:12] * hdh is still temped towards touching some PHP, the HTML embedness feels nice, like XSLT
  17. # [00:14] <gsnedders> hdh: don't.
  18. # [00:14] <gsnedders> hdh: As someone who's used PHP for years, I can wholeheartedly say you don't want to use PHP.
  19. # [00:14] <Philip`> hdh: There are about three million different HTML templating systems in pretty much every language, so that's no reason to choose PHP :-)
  20. # [00:15] <hdh> uhm, ye, I haven't checked any out yet
  21. # [00:16] * hdh spent some moments looking for a nice [Tt] and [Ff], and found "WƮƑ?", to avoid spiders making his page as non-safe
  22. # [00:17] <hdh> s/making/marking/
  23. # [00:18] * gsnedders wonders how his UTF-32 decoder is more expensive than his UTF-16 one
  24. # [00:19] <gsnedders> re-running it makes UTF-32 < UTF-8 < UTF-16 which is still odd
  25. # [00:19] <gsnedders> third time I get UTF-32 < UTF-16 < UTF-8 which is the expectation
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  27. # [00:21] * Philip` is currently using Template Toolkit in Perl, but doesn't really like it because it has seemingly-arbitrary syntactic restrictions so e.g. you can't use expressions inside [...]-style list literals
  28. # [00:23] * hdh got a flash like "hook cheetah to pyblosxom"; a name to hunt down
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  38. # [00:48] * Philip` must remember not to set up web pages that do stuff like <a href="edit/[%message_id]">[% message_title %]</a> when message_title might be an empty string
  39. # [00:48] <Philip`> Uh, s/[%message_id]/[% message_id %]/
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  57. # [02:01] * hdh votes for <m> staying, it makes more sense than strong i b em for highlighting blockquotes
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  60. # [02:22] <Lachy_> hdh, where was there any discussion of removing <m>?
  61. # [02:22] <hdh> #the-m says so
  62. # [02:23] <hdh> "This section has a large number of outstanding comments and will likely be rewritten or removed from the spec."
  63. # [02:24] <Lachy_> nooo! It absolutely must stay
  64. # [02:24] <hdh> ai'ight, two votes :)
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  123. # [15:04] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2007OctDec/0409.html
  124. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> annevk - I commented over on #html-wg about your link pointing to XForms WG aiming at Turing completeness
  125. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> If all working groups were expected/required to working under the expectation that all major features of their specs should be explicitly mentioned in their charters, I wonder what the verdict would be on the XForms WG resolution to add a capability for user-defined functions.
  126. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> looking at the XForms charter, almost none of its actual features are mentioned in the scope section or anywhere else in that charter at all.
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  128. # [15:10] <annevk> yeah, dunno
  129. # [15:11] <annevk> I thought part of the idea of XForms was that it was not turing complete so that you can "reason" about it or something
  130. # [15:21] <MikeSmith> annevk - I think it's great for it to evolve along to meet whatever is needed by the people who are actually using it or want to use it. But I think it would be hard for anybody to claim that the group's charter gives an accurate description of the scope of what XForms has evolved into or what they seem to be further evolving it into.
  131. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> If that charter were held to the same standard that some seem to expect the HTML WG charter to be held to, it would need to be a lot more explicit about particular features than it is now.
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  141. # [17:35] <gsnedders> nice emails on http-wg
  142. # [17:35] <gsnedders> "Specifying behaviour for handling every conceivable error isn't possible"
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  144. # [17:36] <takkaria> surely if you can conceive of an error then you can say how you should handle it?
  145. # [17:36] <gsnedders> takkaria: oh, you just define what happens for any possible next byte.
  146. # [17:36] <gsnedders> like HTML5 :P
  147. # [17:37] <gsnedders> But I must remember seeming I'm doing it for HTTP outwith the WG that it isn't possible.
  148. # [17:37] <Philip`> takkaria: I can conceive of every positive integer, but I can't necessarily say how every positive integer should be handled since they might each need different handling
  149. # [17:39] <gsnedders> I guess if it is infinite then you can't
  150. # [17:39] <gsnedders> (if you don't use a state machine)
  151. # [17:39] <gsnedders> (or something else that can run forever)
  152. # [17:43] <Philip`> If you're willing/able to define your error handling in a finite set of rules, then that's alright, but that's a special case and doesn't apply in general
  153. # [17:47] <gsnedders> for HTTP you can definitely define error handling, though not always for what is transmitted over it
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  160. # [19:03] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1047614078&count=1 — a perfectly linear one which she climbs quicker and quicker? or maybe she gains mass?
  161. # [19:05] <Philip`> Or a mountain which is less steep near the summit, so you go faster and have larger momentum as you climb?
  162. # [19:07] * hdh lol @ the twitter status
  163. # [19:09] <gsnedders> Philip`: but if it's steeper getting up to that less steep part, your average velocity would surely be lower?
  164. # [19:10] <gsnedders> because you'd waste so much time on the steep part
  165. # [19:10] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why is average velocity relevant?
  166. # [19:11] <Philip`> (Also, can I be pedantic and point out that average speed is more useful than average velocity, particularly if you're going up then back down the same side of the mountain?)
  167. # [19:12] <gsnedders> Philip`: momentum = mass * average velocity
  168. # [19:14] <Philip`> momentum = instantaneous mass * instantaneous velocity :-p
  169. # [19:14] * gsnedders headdesks
  170. # [19:14] <gsnedders> that's true.
  171. # [19:15] <gsnedders> which means the fact it is velocity is irrelevant.
  172. # [19:16] <Philip`> That's relevant since it means momentum is a vector quantity
  173. # [19:16] <gsnedders> and of course we're comparing it
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  175. # [19:18] <Philip`> We're implicitly considering the magnitude of it before comparing car vs mountain-climber, I guess
  176. # [19:19] <gsnedders> Philip`: but if it is less steep near the summit, surely she'd need to move really quickly to keep the momentum growing
  177. # [19:20] <Philip`> She could be going really slowly on the steep bits, and then just start moving slightly quicker as it becomes continually less steep - there's no need to ever go really quickly
  178. # [19:20] <gsnedders> but comparatively
  179. # [19:22] <Philip`> She should start off at 30 kg m s^-1 where it's really steep near the start, and then end up at 30.01 kg m s^-1 towards the end where it's much less steep, which would still be gaining momentum but wouldn't be comparatively really quick
  180. # [19:23] <gsnedders> but to compensate for the difference in direction?
  181. # [19:30] <gsnedders> I'm sure enough of us could come up with mad theories about how it works out :)
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  210. # [23:31] <Lachy__> http://blog.fawny.org/2007/12/23/janefonda/
  211. # [23:31] <Lachy__> That's more complaints about HTML5 accessibility issues
  212. # [23:36] <takkaria> that article is high on rhetoric and appeals to emotion using a bad analogy
  213. # [23:37] <gsnedders> oh, I've seen worse analogy.
  214. # [23:38] <takkaria> I don't believe I was disputing that. :)
  215. # [23:38] <takkaria> the last paragraph is amusing too
  216. # [23:38] <takkaria> all the bits of HTML4 and XHTML1 that don't work very well now will continue not working very well into the future. :)
  217. # [23:39] <gsnedders> For example: a potential divider is somehow related to a ladder coming out of water.
  218. # [23:43] <csarven> "benevolent dictator, Hixie, with Maciej as court jester" woah
  219. # [23:43] <gsnedders> well, Hixie is a benevolent dictator :P
  220. # [23:44] * csarven wonders if he ever gives it a break with the complaints and bashing
  221. # [23:44] * gsnedders takes a sausepan, and bashes csarven about over the head
  222. # [23:44] <gsnedders> sorry, I had to
  223. # [23:45] <takkaria> he says benevolent dictator as if it's a bad thing
  224. # [23:45] <Philip`> gsnedders: That doesn't make no sense - the (gravitational) potential difference between the top of the ladder and the water, and the water and the bottom of the ladder, is analogous to the electrical potential difference in the divider, e.g. the two differences add up to a constant but you can move things up and down within a certain range
  225. # [23:45] <Philip`> It's not an especially great analogy, since it doesn't give any insight into additional behaviours, but it's not like it's totally wrong :-)
  226. # [23:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: yeah, I did get it.
  227. # [23:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: But how my teacher explained it left me more confused than before he started.
  228. # [23:49] <Philip`> I liked the idea of coulomb beetles (charge) walking through pipes (circuits), with each beetle carrying a backpack with some number of Mars bars (voltage) of which some get removed when passing through components in the circuit
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  231. # [23:52] <ray> better than a malevolent dictator
  232. # [23:52] <gsnedders> Philip`: that's nice
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  237. # Session Close: Mon Dec 24 00:00:00 2007

The end :)