/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-12-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 25 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:25] <Lachy> OMG, Dean Edridge is attacking me, Anne and Hixie by private email to me
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  95. # [19:31] <nickshanks> is anyone likely to be doing a survey of current element usage on the web?
  96. # [19:47] <MikeSmith> nickshanks - you've seen http://code.google.com/webstats/ ?
  97. # [19:48] <nickshanks> mike: yes, i am asking if ian or someone like him is going to do an update
  98. # [19:50] <nickshanks> i want to add <image></image> to HTML, but people have said that you can't do that, as sites already use that when they mean <img>. But no-one's ever provided any stats to back this up
  99. # [19:50] <nickshanks> and ian said he was too busy last time i asked (about mid-2006)
  100. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> nickshanks - I see. I think he's since run some one-off reports for specific things. maybe if you remind him
  101. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> Philip` runs some now and then
  102. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> but on a smaller set of pages
  103. # [19:52] <nickshanks> how big a sample? where does he get the sample from?
  104. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> At least some of them from dmoz.org I think
  105. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> not sure how big a sample
  106. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> Shawn Medero (smedero) from the HTML WG has access to a very big index and has talked about setting up some reporting mechanism for that
  107. # [19:53] <nickshanks> anyway, i think adding <image></image> and deprecating <img alt=""> would be a step forward, even if only in standards mode
  108. # [19:54] <nickshanks> hmm, interesting. i'm not familiar with him
  109. # [19:54] <MikeSmith> smedero over on #html-wg on irc.freenode.net
  110. # [19:54] <MikeSmith> err
  111. # [19:54] <MikeSmith> I mean
  112. # [19:54] <MikeSmith> irc.w3.org
  113. # [19:54] <nickshanks> yep :) i guessed
  114. # [19:55] <MikeSmith> but definitely worth asking Philip` about it too if you can catch him
  115. # [19:56] <nickshanks> do you think this would be a good idea? i draw parallels with the resently introduced <video> and <audio> elelments. previously the idea was shot down by people saying "why not just use <object> ?" but now i have a counterpoint to that
  116. # [20:13] <Lachy> nickshanks, <image> is already handled by the browsers exactly the same as <img>. It can't be changed without breaking back compat
  117. # [20:13] <nickshanks> yeah, i know. i still want it changed in standards mode. it can stay the same in tag soup mode
  118. # [20:18] <nickshanks> anyway, will have to come back later
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  120. # [20:20] <annevk> yeah, we're not going to do that
  121. # [20:24] <annevk> 2 promille of the page out there are using <image> and introducing more standards mode / quirks mode differences is silly
  122. # [20:25] <annevk> s/page/pages/ ...
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  125. # [21:14] <Philip`> nickshanks (if you see this message): See http://www.imdb.com/ for an example of <image> on a site which browsers probably don't want to break
  126. # [21:17] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/pages/tag/image lists where I found <image> in ~8K pages
  127. # [21:18] <annevk> interesting, that matches the 2 promille figure
  128. # [21:18] <annevk> even though this sample is much smaller, hmm
  129. # [21:28] * Lachy wonders if "promille" is supposed to mean "permille"
  130. # [21:34] * annevk wonders why promille is Dutch-specific
  131. # [21:35] <annevk> anyway: ‰
  132. # [21:35] <annevk> oh, seems Finnish and German have it too
  133. # [21:36] <webben> I thought "standards mode" and "tag sop mode" where the same thing in HTML5?
  134. # [21:36] <webben> *soup
  135. # [21:36] <webben> (in terms of HTML parsing anyhow)
  136. # [21:36] <annevk> there's quirks mode, limited quirks mode and no quirks mode in HTML5
  137. # [21:37] <annevk> parsing currently only deals with no quirks mode, although it does do DOCTYPE processing already
  138. # [21:37] <webben> oh okay
  139. # [21:39] <Philip`> annevk: Why should the smaller sample size make it not match? :-)
  140. # [21:40] <webben> <picture> is probably a more promising line of inquiry, given it has no legacy
  141. # [21:41] <annevk> doing away with <img> would be silly imo
  142. # [21:41] <annevk> and there's always <object>
  143. # [21:41] <annevk> otherwise
  144. # [21:41] <webben> Does object for images actually work well enough to be used?
  145. # [21:41] <kig> promille is from latin, permille is the english bastardization (i guess)
  146. # [21:41] <webben> or does it require conditional comments to make it work?
  147. # [21:42] <Philip`> (I think 15 out of 7739 gives standard deviation around 4, so it's too small to get an especially accurate figure out)
  148. # [21:42] <Philip`> (*too small a sample)
  149. # [21:43] <webben> also: could one specify an API for images included via OBJECT?
  150. # [21:43] <Philip`> webben: See http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/pages/tag/picture for <picture>
  151. # [21:43] <webben> Philip`: I'm more worried about what UAs do or don't do with it.
  152. # [21:43] <Philip`> <!--webbot bot="PhotoAlbum" U-Include="photogallery/photo18322/real.htm" clientside TAG="BODY" startspan --> <picture file-href="photogallery/photo18322/real_p.htm" />
  153. # [21:44] <webben> Philip`: but thanks for the link :)
  154. # [21:44] <Philip`> Argh, second link has Java and crashed Opera :-(
  155. # [21:44] <annevk> apart from getImageData() I'm not sure what API you'd want
  156. # [21:45] <annevk> and even getImageData() is not really needed given that there's drawImage()
  157. # [21:45] <Philip`> <!--webbot bot="PhotoAlbum" U-Include="photogallery/photo25215/real.htm" clientside TAG="BODY" startspan --> <picture file-href="photogallery/photo25215/real_p.htm" />
  158. # [21:46] <Philip`> Looks like both pages using <picture> get it via the same PhotoAlbum software
  159. # [21:47] <webben> annevk: Can getImageData() be used with OBJECT?
  160. # [21:47] <webben> (how large the API is less of a question than whether having an image-specific API is even possible for OBJECT)
  161. # [21:47] <webben> IIRC one of the rationale's for forking OBJECT to create VIDEO was that it made providing a dedicated API easier.
  162. # [21:48] <Philip`> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/813736 - ah, those <picture>s are from Microsoft FrontPage
  163. # [21:48] <annevk> for images, a dedicated API on <object> is less of an image, but this is all highly theoretical anyway
  164. # [21:48] <annevk> less of a problem, even :)
  165. # [21:48] <webben> annevk: It's not theoretical.
  166. # [21:48] <annevk> it is, there's no proposed API for images other than <canvas>
  167. # [21:49] <annevk> and <img> already works pretty damn well
  168. # [21:49] <annevk> compared to using <object> for video that is
  169. # [22:02] <kig> annevk, Philip`: re: canvas spec, i'll mail some comments on the ml, based on writing an svg renderer on canvas
  170. # [22:03] <annevk> cool
  171. # [22:03] <annevk> hopefully hixie will take another look at again as well
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  176. # [22:41] <G0k> hey all
  177. # [22:42] <G0k> how's the party?
  178. # [22:43] <takkaria> "not on IRC"
  179. # [22:44] <G0k> ouch, cut my heart out why don't you
  180. # [22:47] <takkaria> :P
  181. # [22:47] <takkaria> hey, I'm on IRC too
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The end :)