/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-12-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 31 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <gsnedders> broken gmail filters trying to apply non-existant labels, and archiving it.
  4. # [00:00] <Lachy__> ok
  5. # [00:00] <gsnedders> fix the filters and everything appears
  6. # [00:18] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-138-198-209.range86-138.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  7. # [00:32] <jgraham> So... slightly further off topic than the keyboard discussion in public-html; does anyone have any good/bad experience with the in ear sound isolating styl earbud headphones
  8. # [00:32] <jgraham> ?
  9. # [00:33] <jgraham> (add extra letters where required)
  10. # [00:34] <anne-mac> i bought a set and they didn't really stay in my ear so I gave them away...
  11. # [00:34] <anne-mac> (if you're referring the ones sold for the iPod among other things)
  12. # [00:34] <jgraham> do you remember which ones?
  13. # [00:35] <jgraham> (things like http://www.westone.com/content/215.html http://www.shure.com/PersonalAudio/Products/Earphones/ESeries/us_pa_E2c_content )
  14. # [00:35] <anne-mac> http://www.amazon.com/Apple-M9394G-B-iPod-Headphones/dp/B0001AP8CE
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  16. # [00:37] <anne-mac> my experience was similar to this one: http://www.amazon.com/review/R12VD3WYE1JU5/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm
  17. # [00:37] <anne-mac> although I did not bring them back
  18. # [00:38] <takkaria> jgraham: I have some shure e2cs
  19. # [00:39] <jgraham> Yeah, the general issue with these things seems to be finding ones that fit comfortably.
  20. # [00:39] <takkaria> they're pretty good
  21. # [00:39] <takkaria> they come with three different sizes of three different materials of earbud
  22. # [00:39] <jgraham> takkaria: Do they provide noticeable reduction in background noise?
  23. # [00:40] <takkaria> yup
  24. # [00:40] * jgraham cares more about reducing background noise than about perfect audio quality
  25. # [00:40] <takkaria> they allow me to walk around town happily without my ipod ast full volume
  26. # [00:40] <jgraham> Excellent
  27. # [00:41] <takkaria> around the middle of Manchester, nothing less
  28. # [00:41] <takkaria> I know other people who've had good luck with the e2cs, no-one who's used the apple ones
  29. # [00:42] * jgraham tries hard to avoid making some remark about the general danger of walking around manchester, let alone with one sense compromised
  30. # [00:42] <inimino> I tried some Ultimate Ears ones but they did not fit my ear canals
  31. # [00:42] <jgraham> My interest in the Westone ones stems from a site that said they were the most comfortable fit for most people
  32. # [00:43] <takkaria> nothing dangerous about walking round manchester
  33. # [00:43] <takkaria> cycling is a different matter, but I don't wear earphones for that. :)
  34. # [00:43] <jgraham> Unfortunately, they seem to be relatively hard to find in the UK
  35. # [00:43] <jgraham> takkaria: :)
  36. # [00:46] <jgraham> Thanks everyone :)
  37. # [00:56] <takkaria> np
  38. # [01:07] <virtuelv> jgraham: have you looked into the Shure headphones?
  39. # [01:09] <virtuelv> nm, /me reads backlog
  40. # [01:09] <virtuelv> I have some Koss Spark Plugs lying around
  41. # [01:09] <virtuelv> they're pretty horrible, and I've just always ended up using my Grados instead
  42. # [01:09] <virtuelv> which are everything but in-ear
  43. # [01:09] <jgraham> virtuelv: If you have any insight I'm still very much interested
  44. # [01:10] <virtuelv> jgraham: sound-quality-wise, they are supposed to be among the better in-ear solutions you can get
  45. # [01:10] <jgraham> Which ones?
  46. # [01:10] <virtuelv> problem is, they have an associated price tag
  47. # [01:10] <virtuelv> jgraham: shure in general
  48. # [01:10] <virtuelv> I only know shure from microphones
  49. # [01:11] <virtuelv> (the SM58 is a fantastic piece of kit, but that's beside the point)
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  51. # [01:12] <jgraham> My audiophile credentials are severely limited so I wonder how much sound quality issues will affect me
  52. # [01:13] <virtuelv> jgraham: while there is a lot of bollock science in audiophile circles, they at least have understood the quality of not getting tired listening to headphones
  53. # [01:14] <virtuelv> my golden rule is something like this: Don't buy audio equipment by mail order, unless you have pre-listened to them extensively
  54. # [01:14] <virtuelv> example: I recently (a week ago), got rid of my old DVD/CD player, and bought one with a darker sound
  55. # [01:15] <virtuelv> less impressive at first, but it allows me to listen for more extensive periods of time
  56. # [01:15] <virtuelv> (in this regard, ipods suck, they cause listening fatigue)
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  58. # [01:15] <virtuelv> so it's not really about being "audiophile", it's about "which pair of headphones would I want to use for eight hours on end"
  59. # [01:16] <gavin> I don't think I would ever want to use headphones for 8 hours on end regardless of how comfortable they were :)
  60. # [01:17] <jgraham> virtuelv: whilst that sounds eminently sensible, I have difficulty imaganing where I could go to try on in ear headphones
  61. # [01:17] <virtuelv> jgraham: your nearest hi-fi-pusher
  62. # [01:17] <virtuelv> and by that, I mean people who are serious about it
  63. # [01:17] <virtuelv> fwiw, http://www.stereophile.com/headphones/504shure/
  64. # [01:19] <virtuelv> you just have to get over the possible trauma of having someone else's earwax shared
  65. # [01:21] <jgraham> I guess it's worth a try.
  66. # [01:21] <virtuelv> jgraham: is there any specific reason for going with in-ear?
  67. # [01:23] <jgraham> virtuelv: They seem to be effective at cutting down background noise. At least that's the impression I get.
  68. # [01:24] <virtuelv> jgraham: yes, but so are active solutions, like Sennheiser PXC 450
  69. # [01:24] <virtuelv> looks ridiculous walking around town, but on flights and similar, they are guaranteed to be much more comfortable
  70. # [01:24] <virtuelv> http://www.sennheiser.com/nl/icm_nl.nsf/root/500643
  71. # [01:26] <virtuelv> 350's are slightly cheaper, but I haven't read any reviews yet
  72. # [01:26] <jgraham> virtuelv: There seem to be to problems with the active noise cancelling things - they are comparatively expensive for the same level of background reduction, and the active cancelling /seems/ to be more low-frequency-specific
  73. # [01:26] <jgraham> (I was originally looking at the active noise canceling ones)
  74. # [01:29] * jgraham -> bed
  75. # [01:29] <virtuelv> as long as you are aware of the disadvantages, though
  76. # [01:29] <virtuelv> listening fatigue being one
  77. # [01:30] <virtuelv> it's about optimizing the solution for the use-case
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  104. # [05:37] <doublec> <erg> git pull http://littledan.onigirihouse.com/factor.git
  105. # [05:37] <doublec> you can also: git pull git://onigirihouse.com/git/littledan.git
  106. # [05:37] <doublec> it's faster
  107. # [05:45] <doublec> oops, wrong channel
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  111. # [06:00] <Hixie> 53 more tests to write
  112. # [06:01] <Hixie> anyone got any tests they know that safari, mozilla, or opera fail?
  113. # [06:05] <G0k> http://www.css3.info/selectors-test/test.html fails some in safari
  114. # [06:05] <Hixie> wow, sweet test suite
  115. # [06:05] <G0k> and firefox
  116. # [06:06] <Hixie> i really want primarily dom and js tests, but these will definitely be useful
  117. # [06:09] <G0k> by js testing, do you mean like testing compliance with the ECMAScript spec?
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  119. # [06:12] <G0k> oh and of course http://bugs.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=9554
  120. # [06:12] <G0k> which i think only opera handles nicely right now
  121. # [06:12] <Hixie> yes
  122. # [06:13] <Hixie> JS spec and DOM specs
  123. # [06:15] <G0k> i actually had a question for you about the same-origin policy
  124. # [06:15] * Parts: littledan (n=littleda@70-101-64-218.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net)
  125. # [06:15] <G0k> should you be able enumerate variables across domains?
  126. # [06:15] <Hixie> webkit gets http://bugs.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=9554 correct
  127. # [06:16] <Hixie> (though i initially was confused sicne red and yellow are typically fail colours :-) )
  128. # [06:16] <Hixie> no
  129. # [06:16] <Hixie> or wait
  130. # [06:16] <Hixie> what do you mean?
  131. # [06:16] <G0k> hixie: they re-broke it in the latest nightly
  132. # [06:16] <G0k> ok, so
  133. # [06:16] <G0k> well actually, test case: http://bugs.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=9554
  134. # [06:16] <G0k> erps
  135. # [06:16] <G0k> http://mapseekret.com/staticmedia/document_a.html
  136. # [06:16] <G0k> that
  137. # [06:17] <G0k> basically, should a document from one domain be able to use a for..in loop to find the names of the variables in the window from another domain?
  138. # [06:17] <G0k> opera and firefox don't let you
  139. # [06:17] <G0k> safari currently does
  140. # [06:17] <G0k> safari does stop you from getting the actually values, but not the variable names
  141. # [06:17] <G0k> well actually, i put it better in this bug: http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16387
  142. # [06:18] <G0k> but is that actually a same-origin violation?
  143. # [06:18] <Hixie> i thought i was using the latest nightly
  144. # [06:18] <Hixie> the second test case does indeed fail
  145. # [06:18] * Hixie takes note of it
  146. # [06:19] <G0k> well alright the latest one i just compiled is a little wonkey in general
  147. # [06:19] <Hixie> waiiit
  148. # [06:19] <Hixie> i thought 9554 was a different attachment
  149. # [06:19] <Hixie> but it's the same one
  150. # [06:19] <Hixie> and it failed once and succeeded the other time
  151. # [06:19] <Hixie> wtf
  152. # [06:19] <G0k> are you sure you're not mixing up builds?
  153. # [06:19] <Hixie> re the same-origin thing, yes that's a security bug
  154. # [06:19] <Hixie> no, only one build
  155. # [06:20] <G0k> kdoke
  156. # [06:26] * MacDome is surprsied we'd break an existing test
  157. # [06:26] <MacDome> would suggest that the test never got landed
  158. # [06:29] <Hixie> it seems intermittent
  159. # [06:29] <MacDome> http://build.webkit.org/waterfall is generally quite good about catching regressions
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  167. # [08:05] <weinig> Hixie: http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16387 :)
  168. # [08:05] <weinig> Hixie: that's what you get for commenting in a bug that I should have fixed already
  169. # [08:05] <G0k> damnit, my test suggestion is foiled
  170. # [08:06] <G0k> i should get hixie to CC all my bugs. :)
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  175. # [09:19] <Hixie> can anyone think of a way of detecting if an element is matching a selector without using some 2004-or-earlier standards-based mechanism other than getComputedStyle()?
  176. # [09:21] * MacDome is now known as MacDomeSleep
  177. # [09:22] <MacDomeSleep> Hixie: well, in IE there is _hasLayout :)
  178. # [09:22] <MacDomeSleep> certain styles would certainly change the DOM behavior
  179. # [09:22] <Hixie> maybe you don't fully understand "2004-or-earlier standards-based mechanism" :-P
  180. # [09:22] <Hixie> er wait
  181. # [09:22] <Hixie> i misspoke
  182. # [09:22] <Hixie> i meant to ask "can anyone think of a way of detecting if an element is matching a selector using some 2004-or-earlier standards-based mechanism other than getComputedStyle()?"
  183. # [09:23] <Hixie> the without was a misedit
  184. # [09:23] <Hixie> appologies
  185. # [09:23] <MacDomeSleep> yeah,I understood the firstime
  186. # [09:23] <MacDomeSleep> Imust have read betweent he lines
  187. # [09:24] <MacDomeSleep> Hixie: I would use a style which I knew changed dom behavior
  188. # [09:24] <MacDomeSleep> things like height
  189. # [09:24] <MacDomeSleep> display
  190. # [09:24] <MacDomeSleep> etc.
  191. # [09:25] <Hixie> right but how can i tell the style has changed, without using getComputedStyle?
  192. # [09:25] <Hixie> and still following the specs?
  193. # [09:25] <Hixie> (from script)
  194. # [09:26] <MacDomeSleep> if you set a height with the selector, wouldn't element.height change?
  195. # [09:26] <Hixie> element.innerHeight isn't standards-based
  196. # [09:27] <MacDomeSleep> http://trac.webkit.org/projects/webkit/browser/trunk/WebCore/dom/Element.idl
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  198. # [09:28] <MacDomeSleep> I can't think of a standards based method
  199. # [09:29] <MacDomeSleep> Hixie: since all the useful properties on element in that file, are non-standards based
  200. # [09:29] <Hixie> bummer
  201. # [09:29] <Hixie> i don't like breaking IE on a whole series of tests just for not having getComputedStyle
  202. # [09:31] <MacDomeSleep> wasn't getComputedStyle back in like 2000?
  203. # [09:31] <Hixie> yeah
  204. # [09:31] <Hixie> i'm totally using it at least once
  205. # [09:31] <MacDomeSleep> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Style/css.html#CSS-ViewCSS
  206. # [09:31] <Hixie> just feels a bit over the top to totally screw IE on 16 tests in a row just for one bug
  207. # [09:32] <Hixie> oh well
  208. # [09:32] <Hixie> i'm not really targetting IE anyway
  209. # [09:32] <MacDomeSleep> it sorta sucks that IE screws developers over based on one bug :)
  210. # [09:32] <MacDomeSleep> or rather... one thousand bugs
  211. # [09:32] <Hixie> me giggles as he discovers his selectorTest() function works
  212. # [09:32] <Hixie> ^/
  213. # [09:34] * MacDomeSleep is now known as MacDome
  214. # [09:35] <Hixie> ok this is awesome
  215. # [09:35] <Hixie> i have a little framework for selectors tests
  216. # [09:35] <Hixie> now i can go crazy!
  217. # [09:35] <Hixie> mwuhahahaha
  218. # [09:35] <G0k> he's a mad man
  219. # [09:35] <G0k> someone sedate him
  220. # [09:36] * MacDome flails wildly in Hixie's direction, utterly failing.
  221. # [09:36] * MacDome ends up sedating himself
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  224. # [09:36] <Hixie> heh
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  252. # [12:36] <Philip`> Hixie: If you set an img width with CSS, then get the width DOM attribute and test if it equals the width set with CSS (to see if the selector matched), is that standards-based or is it just an undocumented feature?
  253. # [12:37] <anne-mac> standards-based per HTML5
  254. # [12:47] <hsivonen> IIRC, what the getComputedStyle spec says about returned units is utterly bogus
  255. # [12:47] <anne-mac> that's different from the width DOM attribute of <img> though
  256. # [12:47] <hsivonen> so if you want to build a test that is both Good for the Web and adheres to specs as of 2004, it might be hard
  257. # [12:48] <anne-mac> oh, like that
  258. # [12:48] <anne-mac> it's also pretty vague, so...
  259. # [12:48] * anne-mac hopes to fix getComputedStyle in due course
  260. # [12:49] <hsivonen> "The CSSStyleDeclaration is read-only and contains only absolute values."
  261. # [12:49] <hsivonen> my recollection was that it said absolute lengths
  262. # [12:49] <hsivonen> if absolute values means something else, please disregard my comment above
  263. # [12:50] <hsivonen> IIRC, the sensible approach is to normalize lengths to px which CSS calls "relative" not "absolute"
  264. # [12:52] <anne-mac> per CSS the computed value for border-top-width is the absolute length...
  265. # [12:52] <anne-mac> so I guess that's what getComputedStyle means too
  266. # [12:52] <anne-mac> it's not what getComputedStyle does though
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  317. # [15:02] <webben> hsivonen: btw validator (local build) is giving me a "Caused by: org.xml.sax.SAXException: Malformed spec: Expected dt to be context dt but it was not." error whenever I run it, in case you know what that's about
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  326. # [15:39] <hsivonen> webben: try starting with --html5load=http://about.validator.nu/spec.html
  327. # [15:39] <hsivonen> webben: evidently, I need to bundle a known-good copy of the spec with the software
  328. # [15:40] <hsivonen> webben: sorry about the inconvenience
  329. # [15:40] <webben_> python build/build.py run --html5load=http://about.validator.nu/spec.html gives me the same error.
  330. # [15:41] <hsivonen> Philip`: I pushed out a vastly updated http://about.validator.nu/
  331. # [15:41] <hsivonen> webben: you need python build/build.py --html5load=http://about.validator.nu/spec.html run
  332. # [15:41] <anne-mac> hsivonen, you missed the other error Philip` pointed out
  333. # [15:41] <anne-mac> "but only it if the DTD"
  334. # [15:42] <hsivonen> anne-mac: thanks
  335. # [15:42] <webben_> hsivonen: Ah great, that works. Thank you. :)
  336. # [15:42] <hsivonen> anne-mac: fixed
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  347. # [16:43] <zcorpan> div[align=left] {
  348. # [16:43] <zcorpan> }
  349. # [16:43] <zcorpan> <div align='LEFT'></div>
  350. # [16:43] <zcorpan> The CSS selector should match the HTML fragment because the value of the align attribute should be case insensitive in a HTML document
  351. # [16:43] <zcorpan> -- http://www.css3.info/selectors-test/test-attribute-equal.html#attribute-equal
  352. # [16:43] <zcorpan> hmm
  353. # [16:44] <zcorpan> html5 needs to define this
  354. # [16:44] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
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  356. # [16:46] * zcorpan would like to run the selectors tests in quirks mode
  357. # [16:49] <zcorpan> bah, it doesn't test case sensitivity of .class
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  359. # [16:56] <dbaron> zcorpan, There's a list of which attributes count for that in CSS2.1, I think.
  360. # [16:56] <dbaron> zcorpan, although actually it's defined in HTML4 as well...
  361. # [16:57] <zcorpan> i think html5 needs to define it
  362. # [16:57] <zcorpan> also for xhtml5
  363. # [16:58] <dbaron> hrm, actually not -- we just implement using the [CI] / [CS] in HTML4
  364. # [16:59] <zcorpan> does that mean ascii case insensitive or unicode case insensitive?
  365. # [17:00] <zcorpan> usemap="" is unicode case insensitive, iirc. some others are ascii case insensitive. although i haven't tested their case sensitivity wrt selectors
  366. # [17:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: why is usemap case-insensitive in any way?
  367. # [17:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: dunno
  368. # [17:02] <gsnedders> hsivonen: aren't @id normally case-insensitive?
  369. # [17:02] <zcorpan> usemap points to name=""
  370. # [17:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: have you tested selector case-insensitivity of with enumerated-value attributes in XHTML?
  371. # [17:02] <zcorpan> (per html4 anyway)
  372. # [17:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: no
  373. # [17:03] <hsivonen> gsnedders: id is supposed to be case-sensitive
  374. # [17:03] <gsnedders> hsivonen: and HTML is supposed to be SGML. What things are supposed to mean is irrelevant :)
  375. # [17:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is usemap case-insensitive only when comparing againts name or also with id?
  376. # [17:04] <zcorpan> i guess i'll make a thorough test suite for this in due course
  377. # [17:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in ie and opera it's insensitive for both
  378. # [17:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in saf and moz it's insensitive for name (html only) and sensitive for id (xhtml only)
  379. # [17:05] <hsivonen> I currently implement usemap checking using code-point-for-code-point equality
  380. # [17:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan: fun
  381. # [17:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan: but WebKit supports name in XHTML, too, doesn't it?
  382. # [17:07] <gsnedders> hsivonen: yeah
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  388. # [18:33] <zcorpan> hsivonen: not last time i tested, iirc
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  390. # [18:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "If you the automatic choice of parser ..." s/you // in http://about.validator.nu/
  391. # [18:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: btw, i'm not sure about the utility of allowing text/xsl as a lax content type, considering that iirc moz and ie don't actually accept it as a content type
  392. # [18:40] <zcorpan> (but ie requires "text/xsl" in the type pseudo-attribute)
  393. # [18:41] * webben_ can understand why one might want to treat name as ID in HTML for IE compat, but can't see the point in corrupting NAME in XHTML in the same way.
  394. # [18:42] <zcorpan> webben_: for HTML compat :)
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  396. # [18:42] <webben_> It's a silly habit in HTML to begin with, given that NAME is not unique.
  397. # [18:43] <zcorpan> <a name> or <map name> must be unique per html4
  398. # [18:43] <zcorpan> <div id="foo"><map name="foo"> is not conforming html4
  399. # [18:43] <webben_> zcorpan: Do you mean getElementById never returns <input type="radio" name="foo"> ?
  400. # [18:44] <zcorpan> that's not what i meant, and i don't see how you make that connection, but it might well do in ie
  401. # [18:45] <zcorpan> (it shouldn't, though)
  402. # [18:45] <webben_> zcorpan: If it's not the case that getElementById is special-cased for A and MAP, then I'm not sure how that uniqueness restriction helps.
  403. # [18:46] <Dashiva> webben_: How is getElementById on a duplicate id any different from on a duplicate name?
  404. # [18:46] <webben_> Dashiva: You're not supposed to have duplicate IDs.
  405. # [18:46] <Dashiva> That's not enforced, though
  406. # [18:46] <zcorpan> webben_: there are other interfaces than gEBI
  407. # [18:46] <webben_> Not much is enforced.
  408. # [18:46] <webben_> You are supposed to have duplicate NAMEs for radio buttons however.
  409. # [18:46] <Dashiva> Besides, many uses of name are also supposed to be unique
  410. # [18:46] <zcorpan> webben_: such as <img usemap>
  411. # [18:48] <Dashiva> webben_: There's not much of a use case for using gEBI on a radio button name, though
  412. # [18:49] <webben_> I don't see any usecase for using gEBI on NAMEs full-stop, especially in XML.
  413. # [18:49] <Dashiva> Easy access to form elements is one
  414. # [18:49] <webben_> I can see the backwards compat argument in HTML, although it's not massively strong given that relying on such behavior would break webapps in a lot of browsers.
  415. # [18:49] <zcorpan> Dashiva: dom0 has simpler access to form elements
  416. # [18:50] <webben_> I think ID makes form access pretty easy actually.
  417. # [18:50] <Dashiva> Sure, if you have a reference to the form
  418. # [18:50] <webben_> you need ID for form labels anyhow
  419. # [18:50] <webben_> (well, if you want them to actually work)
  420. # [18:50] <webben_> *field labels
  421. # [18:51] <Dashiva> If you use labels, and don't use containing labels, yes
  422. # [18:51] <webben_> Either way, I think that's a stronger argument for a getElementByAttributeValue('name','foo') or something
  423. # [18:51] <Dashiva> getElementsByName exists, yes
  424. # [18:51] <webben_> at least that would do what it says on the tin, and be usable for many more situations
  425. # [18:52] <webben_> e.g. getting all password inputs in a form.
  426. # [18:52] <webben_> s/password/text (probably a better example)
  427. # [18:53] <zcorpan> text inputs might not have a type attribute :)
  428. # [18:54] <webben_> They might not. That's an argument for something like getElementsBy (http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/docs/YAHOO.util.Dom.html)
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The end :)