/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-01-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 03 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-06beb976794d8c0d)
  4. # [00:12] <webben> Philip`: What are you actually making btw? A renderer that will take X3D input and produce a canvas rendering?
  5. # [00:12] <webben> (just curious)
  6. # [00:13] <Philip`> webben: Yes (using Firefox's/Opera's 3d canvas contexts)
  7. # [00:13] <Philip`> Well, it's not just producing a rendering - it does some animation and user-controlled camera movement and stuff
  8. # [00:13] <webben> I see.
  9. # [00:17] <Philip`> My idea is that X3D can't be implemented natively by browsers (because there would be approximately no interoperability, given how it's defined), so they have to implement something like OpenGL, but OpenGL is really painful to use for anything non-trivial, so a higher-level 3D engine is needed, and X3D is a vaguely sensible way of doing that
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  12. # [00:27] <othermaciej> http://torgo-x.livejournal.com/1013176.html
  13. # [00:29] * Philip` found some Netscape 3.0 floppy disks at home today
  14. # [00:29] <Philip`> but I think that's the oldest version I've used, except when intentionally searching for ancient versions
  15. # [00:35] <othermaciej> what I find interesting about that post is that netscape 0.9b pretty much can't browse the current web
  16. # [00:35] <othermaciej> and that the showstopper problems are mostly at the HTTP level
  17. # [00:36] <Hixie> the bus i'm on just totally ran a red light
  18. # [00:36] <Hixie> good times
  19. # [00:38] <webben> the current web works pretty bad in mosaic IIRC too.
  20. # [00:38] <webben> or at least whatever mosaic is available for Windows systems from evolt
  21. # [00:38] <webben> can't remember if the problems were HTTP-related though
  22. # [00:39] * webben wonders if worldwideweb works at all
  23. # [00:40] <othermaciej> I dunno
  24. # [00:40] <othermaciej> the current web works pretty bad in Amaya
  25. # [00:40] <othermaciej> so I guess a browser doesn't have to be old to fail
  26. # [00:40] <othermaciej> but I don't think Amaya fails quite as badly as Netscape 0.9
  27. # [00:41] <Hixie> amaya is a browser to the same extent that a hybrid SUV is a way to save on carbon emissions
  28. # [00:42] <webben> Well, Amaya can't render text properly or handle HTTPS, but I think it can handle ordinary HTTP in a vaguely similar way to other browsers.
  29. # [00:43] <webben> Though I probably shouldn't whinge about it's text rendering without trying the latest version.
  30. # [00:44] <Philip`> Hooray, now I've got text, though it's upside-down and repeated five times and squashed so there's lots of empty space
  31. # [00:45] <webben> Now that sounds like Amaya's text rendering ;)
  32. # [00:45] <webben> (well except maybe the upside-down bit)
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  49. # [02:26] <Hixie> i could do a form post to an iframe and have the server respond with a 204 response and a Link: header, and check that the iframe has its stylesheet updated
  50. # [02:26] <Hixie> but maybe that's a bit contrived
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  53. # [02:53] <Hixie> gotta say, it's hard to find bugs in teh processing of URIs
  54. # [02:55] <jruderman> how about bugs related to escaping and charsets?
  55. # [02:55] <jruderman> proper handling of backslash \
  56. # [02:55] <jruderman> proper handling of % within javascript: or data: URIs
  57. # [02:56] <Hixie> got any specific examples of bugs?
  58. # [02:56] <Hixie> everything i've tried has worked in all browsers
  59. # [02:56] <jruderman> properly rejecting <img src="https:..."> when the cert is invalid
  60. # [02:56] <Hixie> (except for backslashes in data:, which is in the test)
  61. # [02:56] <Hixie> who says you should reject that?
  62. # [02:56] <Hixie> the problem is all the bugs i've found are things that aren't actually required by any specs
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  64. # [02:58] <jruderman> common sense says you should reject that?
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  66. # [02:58] <jruderman> how about <script src="https:...">
  67. # [02:58] <Hixie> sadly common sense isn't normative
  68. # [02:58] <Hixie> and i have to be able to justify everything in acid3 with normative text
  69. # [02:59] <jruderman> so add something to HTML5 saying that embedded stuff (especially <script> and <style>) pointing at https has to be ignored if the server has a bogus cert. if browsers get that wrong (i don't know whether they do) it's pretty bad for security.
  70. # [03:00] <Hixie> can you send me mail reminding me to add that?
  71. # [03:00] <Hixie> that'd be useful to add
  72. # [03:00] <othermaciej> Hixie: relative URL resolution when the relative part has too many ./ or ../ used to not match the URI spec (not sure if that is still true)
  73. # [03:00] <jruderman> ok
  74. # [03:00] <othermaciej> but that likely needs to be fixed in the spec
  75. # [03:00] <Hixie> not useful for acid3, though, i'm trying to target 2004-or-earlier only
  76. # [03:00] <othermaciej> (regarding URI processing bugs)
  77. # [03:00] <jruderman> 2004-or-earlier specs?
  78. # [03:01] <Hixie> jruderman: yeah. anything that was in CR or REC in 2004 or earlier.
  79. # [03:01] <jruderman> so that you can have "acid 5" test html5? ;)
  80. # [03:01] <Hixie> othermaciej: i just tried some stuff like that and couldn't find any bugs
  81. # [03:01] <Hixie> jruderman: good idea :-D
  82. # [03:02] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think browsers may also collapse together ../ and ./ in the non-relative part with ones in the relative part
  83. # [03:02] <othermaciej> or something like that
  84. # [03:02] <othermaciej> (I'm not sure that's even possible)
  85. # [03:02] <Hixie> can you give me an example? i'm not really following. how can a non-relative part have .. parts?
  86. # [03:02] <othermaciej> or maybe there is ./ and ../ processing in absolute URIs
  87. # [03:03] <othermaciej> I don't think a non-relative part can, I'm not remembering this very well
  88. # [03:03] <Hixie> yeah that's my problem too
  89. # [03:03] <othermaciej> since I last dealt with this stuff in like 2002 or so
  90. # [03:03] <Hixie> none of my tests are finding anything useful to test
  91. # [03:04] <othermaciej> <a href="http://bsalert.com/./news/./2196/./Programmer_Testifies_He_Was_Paid_To_Hack_Florida_Election.html">check</a>
  92. # [03:05] <othermaciej> I think browsers collapse away the ./ components there
  93. # [03:05] <Hixie> yeah, that's per spec
  94. # [03:05] <Hixie> rfc 3986 section 5.2.4
  95. # [03:05] <jruderman> hixie: test proper handling of <a href="//www.google.com/"> perhaps?
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  99. # [03:07] <jruderman> hixie: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=284474 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=261929 (which parts of urls get sent as utf-8 and which parts get sent in the page's charset) ... dunno if any of that is covered by specs
  100. # [03:09] <Hixie> everyone seems to handle "//..." correctly
  101. # [03:09] <Hixie> sadly the character encoding stuff is wrong in the specs
  102. # [03:09] <Hixie> so i can't test it, lest i prevent the specs from being fixed
  103. # [03:09] <Hixie> man, testing URIs is a pain
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  105. # [03:12] <jruderman> because browsers aren't buggy enough?
  106. # [03:13] <Hixie> no, because the specs are so vague
  107. # [03:13] <jruderman> i see #fragments in my server's referrer logs sometimes, but i don't know whether that's due to browsers being buggy or something else
  108. # [03:13] <Hixie> if they were written like HTML5, with very specific things that must happen, it would be easy to see if it was working
  109. # [03:13] <Hixie> most bad HTTP seems to be down to spammers' spiders, as far as i can tell
  110. # [03:14] <Hixie> right. no more URI and HTTP tests. maybe I'll focus on DOM Traversal and DOM Range instead
  111. # [03:14] <Hixie> those don't have much testing
  112. # [03:14] * Philip` has never seen href="//..." except on slashdot.org
  113. # [03:15] <jruderman> test that IDN works?
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  115. # [03:15] <Hixie> Philip`: it's suprisingly common
  116. # [03:15] <othermaciej> I think I need a new laptop
  117. # [03:16] <jruderman> test that port 25 is blocked? ;)
  118. # [03:16] <Philip`> othermaciej: You could get a nice HP one
  119. # [03:17] <othermaciej> Philip`: sure, I'll keep it next to my Zune and my Windows Mobile phone
  120. # [03:18] <jruderman> huh, RFC 3986 explicitly disallows URIs that use IP address formats other than dotted-decimal
  121. # [03:19] <Hixie> jruderman: but does it say what the error handling for the others should be?
  122. # [03:19] <Philip`> You could test IPv6 URIs
  123. # [03:19] <Hixie> Philip`: not sure how :-)
  124. # [03:19] <jruderman> nope, it says "many implementations allow..."
  125. # [03:19] <othermaciej> jruderman: does that include ruling out IPv6 addresses?
  126. # [03:19] <Hixie> jruderman: typical
  127. # [03:20] <jruderman> so i guess it doesn't exactly disallow them, just says they aren't valid URIs
  128. # [03:20] <Hixie> it disallows them, just like <em><i></em></i> is disallowed
  129. # [03:20] <Hixie> but that doesn't mean much for UAs
  130. # [03:22] <Philip`> Hixie: I'm not quite sure how you could do it so it's only testing the browser and not the whole network path to some external server :-(
  131. # [03:22] <Hixie> yeah
  132. # [03:23] <othermaciej> you could test that IPv6 IP addresses in a URI are not rejected
  133. # [03:23] <othermaciej> by using the <a> element's attributes to see that the host part is right
  134. # [03:24] <othermaciej> that would not test the network path at all
  135. # [03:24] <othermaciej> HTMLAnchorElement.host etc
  136. # [03:24] <Hixie> sadly those attributes aren't in DOM2 HTML :-(
  137. # [03:24] <othermaciej> they're not?
  138. # [03:24] <Hixie> (html5 has them)
  139. # [03:24] <Hixie> not as far as i can tell
  140. # [03:24] <Hixie> i may have missed them
  141. # [03:24] <othermaciej> good gravy
  142. # [03:24] <Hixie> but i couldn'd find them
  143. # [03:25] <othermaciej> yeah, only href
  144. # [03:25] <othermaciej> though you can use that to test relative URI resolution without having to load the target
  145. # [03:25] <Philip`> Is there any other way to detect invalid URI vs unreachable URI?
  146. # [03:25] <Hixie> othermaciej: true
  147. # [03:35] <Philip`> Does anything say that e.g. <iframe src="http://[::1]"> .src should give back an absolute URI like "http://[::1]/"?
  148. # [03:37] <othermaciej> it's so weird that HTMLFrameElement and HTMLIFrameElement don't inherit from anything in common besides HTMLElement
  149. # [03:38] <othermaciej> but anyway, it appears that the src property is not specified to resolve the value of the src attribute
  150. # [03:38] <othermaciej> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/html.html#ID-50708718
  151. # [03:38] <othermaciej> though it's hard to tell what the actual normative requirement is if any
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  154. # [03:43] <Hixie> html5 requires any dom attribute reflecting a content attribute that contains a url to be absolute/resolved
  155. # [03:43] <Hixie> bbiab
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  157. # [03:44] <Philip`> Hixie: If you'd just worked a bit faster and got HTML5 published as CR in 2004, you'd have saved yourself a lot of problems writing these tests
  158. # [03:45] <Hixie> if i'd gotten html5 done in 2004, either it would be as crap as all these specs are, or i'd be dead.
  159. # [03:45] <Hixie> :-)
  160. # [03:45] <Hixie> so i disagree :-P
  161. # [03:46] * Hixie goes to dinner
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  165. # [04:11] <MacDome> kig: there are plenty o' tablets aroudn me
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  170. # [05:16] <kig> MacDome: good to hear :)
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  243. # [14:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: I deployed a very quick and very dirty temporary fix for the astral character issue in the XML serializer
  244. # [14:32] <hsivonen> I'm not yet sure whether I should 1) wait for the Xalan folks to fix it upstream, 2) develop a proper fix that not only fixes my use case but their myriad of other configurations that I don't need or 3) write my own serializer
  245. # [14:41] <hsivonen> note to whoever flagged my statement about hacking Xalan serializer in the IRC logs: a reasonable non-prettyprinting SAX ContentHandler to UTF-8 byte stream serializer should take one or two smallish source files. The Xalan serializer does a lot more and has 93 source files, so quickly hacking just what I need could easily break something else that someone else uses the code for
  246. # [14:42] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  247. # [14:46] <Hemebond> I have no idea what you just said.
  248. # [14:46] <Hemebond> Isn't that awful?
  249. # [14:48] <hsivonen> Hemebond: did I say something that didn't make sense?
  250. # [14:48] * Philip` wonders if anyone has a C preprocessor implementation in JavaScript
  251. # [14:48] * Joins: colione_ (n=colione@17.247.241.83.in-addr.dgcsystems.net)
  252. # [14:48] <Hemebond> hsivonen: No. I just have no idea what it means.
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  255. # [14:57] <kig> how are the svg filters implemented? software renderer is draw to temp surface, apply filter, composite? hardware, shader chain
  256. # [15:00] <Philip`> kig: I believe Firefox's SVG uses Cairo, which does different things on different platforms (e.g. sending commands to X on Linux so it can use whatever hardware acceleration the X driver supports)
  257. # [15:01] <Philip`> and different things for different compositing/filtering/etc modes, depending on what features the backend provides and what it has to emulate itself
  258. # [15:02] * Parts: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.91.126)
  259. # [15:03] * krijnh doesn't get http://arjaneising.nl/me/2007-as-an-html-element :s
  260. # [15:06] * Joins: MugginsM (n=jennyj@202.127.9.159)
  261. # [15:16] <kig> Philip`: okay, but if you want to do them using the 2d canvas?
  262. # [15:17] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  263. # [15:17] <kig> it's going to be hellishly slow, but better than not having them..
  264. # [15:21] <Philip`> I guess that depends on what the filter is - some look fairly straightforward, but others could only be done with getPixelData
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  267. # [15:28] <zcorpan> Hixie: something for acid3 (assuming the spec covers it): # in data: url
  268. # [15:34] <Lachy> # in URLs is, I believe, covered by the URI RFC. It's always supposed to mean a fragment identifier in all URIs
  269. # [15:35] <Lachy> is anyone able to access http://lachy.id.au/ ? It's timing out for me.
  270. # [15:36] * Philip` wonders if he's forgetting an easy way to load stuff from one XML file into scripts in another XHTML file, without requiring something irritating like XHR
  271. # [15:37] <Philip`> Oh, maybe <iframe> does it
  272. # [15:37] <zcorpan> Lachy: well, that doesn't really make sense for e.g. mailto: or javascript:
  273. # [15:37] <Philip`> except that's a bit ugly :-(
  274. # [15:39] * zcorpan can't access http://lachy.id.au/
  275. # [15:39] <zcorpan> Lachy: but in any case, firefox and opera treat # in data: differently
  276. # [15:39] <Philip`> Lachy: I can ping it and ssh into it and connect to port 80, but then it times out before responding
  277. # [15:41] <Lachy> Philip`, same result I'm getting
  278. # [15:41] <Lachy> thanks
  279. # [15:41] * Lachy emails tech support...
  280. # [15:42] <Lachy> that's weird, I can't ssh to it.
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  283. # [15:49] <Philip`> $ ssh lachy.id.au
  284. # [15:49] <Philip`> The authenticity of host 'lachy.id.au (207.210.111.50)' can't be established.
  285. # [15:49] <Philip`> RSA key fingerprint is 5e:13:16:fc:77:53:f5:f5:2a:7a:62:04:38:b2:9b:53.
  286. # [15:49] <Philip`> ...seems to indicate that it's connecting fine
  287. # [15:50] * Philip` wonders how cryptographically hard it is to get a "near collision" between RSA key fingerprints, so that somebody comparing two of them by eye will think they're the same
  288. # [15:51] <Philip`> (I usually compare MD5 checksums by only looking at the first half a dozen hex digits, which doesn't do much good to its security properties)
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  293. # [15:57] <Lachy> Philip`, I once read an article somewhere that discussed the usability of fingerprints, and IIRC, it said if the first and last few chars are the same, it's enough to fool most people.
  294. # [15:58] <MugginsM> would be an interesting programming problem, produce matching hexes that to a passing glance, look the same
  295. # [15:58] <Lachy> looks like lachy.id.au is back up
  296. # [16:01] <Philip`> Ooh, 'gl_FragColor = normal' makes prettily-coloured spheres
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  309. # [17:01] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Ctextarea%20style%3D%22overflow%3Avisible%22%3E%0D%0A1%0D%0A2%0D%0A3%0D%0A4%0D%0A%3C%2Ftextarea%3E
  310. # [17:01] <zcorpan> try that in ie
  311. # [17:02] <zcorpan> seems useful... any reason why we shouldn't copy this behavior?
  312. # [17:06] <krijnh> Please copy that, it's super handy :)
  313. # [17:08] <zcorpan> i wonder why ie only does it in quirks mode
  314. # [17:09] <krijnh> Does it?
  315. # [17:09] <zcorpan> yeah
  316. # [17:09] <krijnh> I've used it in standards mode
  317. # [17:10] <zcorpan> ...in ie7
  318. # [17:10] <zcorpan> ie6 does it in standards mode too
  319. # [17:10] <krijnh> IE7 as well
  320. # [17:10] * krijnh tests
  321. # [17:11] * krijnh still sucks at that
  322. # [17:11] <krijnh> You're right :)
  323. # [17:11] <zcorpan> perhaps they dropped it because they didn't know how to do it with correct impl of 'height'
  324. # [17:12] <zcorpan> should the text overflow outside the textarea when you've set a height?
  325. # [17:13] <zcorpan> or should height act as min-height?
  326. # [17:13] <krijnh> You shouldn't set a height when you want it to be as high as the content
  327. # [17:14] <zcorpan> that doesn't tell what UAs should do
  328. # [17:15] <zcorpan> ignore height altogether?
  329. # [17:15] <zcorpan> (act as min-height seems more useful of the alternatives, like ie6)
  330. # [17:17] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  331. # [17:19] <krijnh> Yeah, I think so
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  336. # [17:37] <Philip`> http://www.microsoft.com/beta/downloads/About.aspx - hmm, the "Step 2" text on the right gets drawn underneath some other text in FF/Opera - does it work better in IE?
  337. # [17:38] <krijnh> Yes
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  413. # [23:52] <jruderman> Hixie: does the nodelist returned by getElementsByClassName have to be in document order?
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  416. # Session Close: Fri Jan 04 00:00:00 2008

The end :)