/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-01-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 08 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  35. # [03:14] <Hixie> so tempted to test E4X in Acid3
  36. # [03:17] <jruderman> eww
  37. # [03:17] <jruderman> i'm not a fan of E4X
  38. # [03:18] <jruderman> do you test trailing commas in array literals and object literals?
  39. # [03:19] <Hixie> yup
  40. # [03:20] <Hixie> test 81
  41. # [03:20] <Hixie> at least, i do for array literals
  42. # [03:20] <Hixie> how should i test it for oject literals?
  43. # [03:22] <eseidel> { "foo": "bar",} ?
  44. # [03:23] <Hixie> but how do i test it?
  45. # [03:23] <Hixie> what's the failure condition?
  46. # [03:23] <eseidel> eval? for a parse error?
  47. # [03:23] * eseidel doesn't know
  48. # [03:23] <Hixie> oh, there are browsers that have parse errors with that?
  49. # [03:23] <Hixie> wow
  50. # [03:23] * Hixie tests
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  52. # [03:24] <eseidel> Hixie: I doubt there are
  53. # [03:25] * eseidel doesn't understand what support would mean other than not erroring out
  54. # [03:25] * Hixie can't find object literals in es3
  55. # [03:28] <Hixie> so uh
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  57. # [03:28] <Hixie> {a:0,} is illegal
  58. # [03:29] <Hixie> safari and opera allow it
  59. # [03:29] <Hixie> firefox and ie throw
  60. # [03:32] <othermaciej> Hixie: are you sure?
  61. # [03:32] <othermaciej> javascript:alert({a:0,})
  62. # [03:32] <othermaciej> that works for me in Firefox
  63. # [03:33] <Hixie> what does it alert?
  64. # [03:33] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/js-eval-window/ for {a:0,} raises a SyntaxError for me
  65. # [03:33] <othermaciej> [object Object]
  66. # [03:33] <othermaciej> (it's obviously not a parse error)
  67. # [03:33] <othermaciej> I think the syntax error might be because it parses it as a block
  68. # [03:33] <Hixie> ah indeed
  69. # [03:34] <othermaciej> if you put it in parens I bet it works
  70. # [03:34] <Hixie> yeah
  71. # [03:34] <Hixie> that's what i just did
  72. # [03:34] <Hixie> i'm so not going near this in acid3
  73. # [03:34] <othermaciej> Safari and Opera probably are doing extra semicolon insertion
  74. # [03:34] <othermaciej> when parsing as a block
  75. # [03:34] <othermaciej> or something
  76. # [03:35] <othermaciej> actually 0, isn't even a valid comma expression
  77. # [03:35] <othermaciej> I'm not sure why it parses
  78. # [03:35] <Hixie> yeah
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  100. # [04:46] <jwalden> Hixie, eseidel: ES4 is making the trailing comma in object literals optional -- and furthermore, it's not a spec violation because the spec explicitly allows extensions to what it considers valid syntax
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  103. # [04:50] <othermaciej_> jwalden: by making the optional, you mean, making it optional for implementations, or optional for code (i.e. mandatory for implementations to support)
  104. # [04:50] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  105. # [04:52] <jwalden> othermaciej: right now the spec grammar doesn't allow them; ES4 will allow them to be present (but have no semantic effect)
  106. # [04:53] <othermaciej> jwalden: by "right now" you mean ES3, right?
  107. # [04:53] <othermaciej> and the ES4 grammar will allow them?
  108. # [04:53] <jwalden> othermaciej: yes
  109. # [04:53] <jwalden> yes
  110. # [04:53] <jwalden> allow in the same way that the trailing comma in an array literal is allowed to be present but otherwise has no effect (in the absence of any other trailing commas, that is)
  111. # [04:53] <jwalden> so 1 === [1,] and 2 === [1,2,]
  112. # [04:54] * othermaciej hopes ES4 has a work-in-progress spec draft to reference soon
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  114. # [04:54] <jwalden> brendan follows rather more closely than I do; I don't know the state of what's publicly published as of yet
  115. # [04:55] <jwalden> er, with .length after those examples
  116. # [04:57] <othermaciej> yeah I know how commas in array literals work
  117. # [04:57] <othermaciej> and I think everyone now implements trailing commas in object syntax too
  118. # [04:59] <jruderman> i think IE still rejects object literals with trailing commas
  119. # [05:00] <jruderman> but since it isn't covered by a 2004-or-earlier spec, i guess it's out for acid3
  120. # [05:00] <jruderman> too bad, that one annoyed me ;)
  121. # [05:04] <jwalden> Opera threw a SyntaxError for awhile; lemme track down the blog post grumbling about it :-)
  122. # [05:06] <jwalden> http://my.opera.com/hallvors/blog/show.dml/26650
  123. # [05:09] <jwalden> Hixie: oh, on commas: another test which Firefox fails is javascript:alert(1 in [0, , 2] ? "FAIL" : "PASS")
  124. # [05:17] * aa is now known as dglazkov
  125. # [05:18] <othermaciej> I bet Microsoft's JS compatibility document would be a goldmine of JS bugs in all browsers
  126. # [05:18] <othermaciej> (have they posted that publicly anywhere?)
  127. # [05:19] <othermaciej> linked here as a PDF: http://blogs.msdn.com/jscript/archive/2007/10/29/ecmascript-3-and-beyond.aspx
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  129. # [05:23] <jruderman> othermaciej++
  130. # [05:24] <othermaciej> I mean, they conveniently documented their bugs for the world to see
  131. # [05:24] <othermaciej> so that's handy
  132. # [05:25] <jruderman> exactly
  133. # [05:28] <MacDome> othermaciej: holy crap, they've documented our bugs too!
  134. # [05:30] <jwalden> yeah, that thing was amazing
  135. # [05:31] <jwalden> also because it exactly laid out just how much IE's JS sucks :-)
  136. # [05:34] <othermaciej> in some cases I think the IE behavior should just be declared correct, but it's hard to tell which way is more of a compat issue sometimes
  137. # [05:35] <othermaciej> some of the things they label as "deviations" are actually technically unspecified
  138. # [05:35] <othermaciej> perhaps also vice versa
  139. # [05:37] <othermaciej> oh, I guess I missed the section break actually
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  141. # [05:42] <jruderman> what's the highest possible score in the current version of acid3?
  142. # [05:43] <gavin> 100%
  143. # [05:43] <gavin> incomplete tests are treated as passes, afaik
  144. # [05:43] <gavin> non-existent, I should say
  145. # [05:43] <jruderman> oh, wow, gecko and webkit have a ways to go then ;)
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  148. # [05:59] <Hixie> jwalden: where in the spec does it say what should happen for that?
  149. # [06:00] <jwalden> gnarliness in 11.1.4, sec
  150. # [06:06] <othermaciej> Hixie: you should check out the Microsoft compat document I linked
  151. # [06:12] <jwalden> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=260106 while I'm tracking through to find the exact details
  152. # [06:14] <jwalden> The production Element List: ElementList , ElisionAssignment Expression is evaluated as follows:
  153. # [06:15] <jwalden> step 2 is "Evaluate Elision_opt, if not present use the value zero"
  154. # [06:15] <jwalden> (insert "_opt " after the first "Elision" two lines ago)
  155. # [06:16] <jwalden> and then step 6 calls [[Put]] with arguments (Result(2) + Result(5)) and Result(4)
  156. # [06:16] <jwalden> 4 calculates the element's value
  157. # [06:16] <jwalden> Result(5) is the length of the partially-constructed array
  158. # [06:16] <jwalden> Elision is evaluated as "Return the numeric value 1"
  159. # [06:17] <jwalden> so an elision shifts all inserted values up an index, but it doesn't result in any value being inserted at the elided index
  160. # [06:17] <jwalden> so that index/property is not present, so |index in array| should be false
  161. # [06:17] <jwalden> Hixie: ^
  162. # [06:31] <MacDome> jruderman: the nightlies are OK at acid3
  163. # [06:31] <MacDome> jruderman: there were like 17 fixes or something since 3.0.4
  164. # [06:31] <MacDome> jruderman: still awful :)
  165. # [06:31] <MacDome> but better than 3.0.4
  166. # [06:32] <MacDome> Hixie: the blog comments also list more bugs :)
  167. # [06:34] <jruderman> MacDome: cool
  168. # [06:37] <jruderman> eep, at 14%, both webkit trunk and firefox trunk hang for a bit
  169. # [06:38] <jruderman> webkit trunk gets 71% and firefox trunk gets 67%. not that it means anything, since hixie is taking bug suggestions from both teams ;)
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  173. # [06:40] <jruderman> it triggers
  174. # [06:40] <jruderman> ###!!! ASSERTION: ReplaceElementAt(negative index): 'aIndex >= 0', file nsVoidArray.cpp, line 491
  175. # [06:40] <jruderman> nice
  176. # [06:40] <jruderman> might be https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=378969
  177. # [06:41] <jruderman> which appears to be a TreeWalker bug
  178. # [06:41] <jwalden> jruderman: see the spreadsheet, known
  179. # [06:41] <jruderman> the spreadsheet?
  180. # [06:42] <jwalden> jruderman: and the "hang" is Hixie triggering GC
  181. # [06:42] <jwalden> bug acid3
  182. # [06:42] <jwalden> lemme add you to the editor list, actually
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  184. # [06:48] <jwalden> the instability of the numbering isn't helping things all that much :-)
  185. # [06:49] <jruderman> hehe
  186. # [06:49] <jruderman> maybe we can convince hixie to give them names instead of numbers?
  187. # [06:50] <jwalden> it's also fun sometimes to load it and get a random debugging alert that halts the test :-)
  188. # [06:50] <jwalden> possibly
  189. # [06:50] <jwalden> although that just means it's harder to find specific tests in the source
  190. # [06:51] <jwalden> don't think there's a good solution here no matter how it's cut
  191. # [06:51] <jwalden> and this will all be immaterial when it's actually finished
  192. # [06:52] <jruderman> wow, that GC thing is evil
  193. # [06:52] <jruderman> var loops = (((new Date()).valueOf() - 1.07e12) / 32e9) * 0x800; // increases linearly over time
  194. # [06:53] <jwalden> oh, it's ghastly all right
  195. # [06:53] <jruderman> and a kungFuDeathGrip!?!?!?
  196. # [06:53] <jwalden> on the other hand...kungFuDeathGrip!
  197. # [06:53] <jwalden> haha
  198. # [06:54] <jwalden> you can't possibly not love the name
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  201. # [07:00] <Hixie> jwalden: k
  202. # [07:02] <Hixie> jruderman: the tests sometimes get merged, too
  203. # [07:02] <Hixie> jruderman: (and more rarely, split)
  204. # [07:02] <Hixie> jruderman: (and sometimes removed altogether)
  205. # [07:02] <jruderman> k
  206. # [07:03] <Hixie> the GC thing is pretty evil, but i like the idea of sliding a perf test for DOM manipulation into the middle of the test there :-)
  207. # [07:03] <Hixie> safari does way better on that perf test than firefox at the moment
  208. # [07:04] <othermaciej> jwalden: I think Mozilla has that name all over internally
  209. # [07:04] <jwalden> Hixie: btw, the parens around |new Date()| aren't needed, as whatever's new'd ends at the first pair of parens
  210. # [07:04] <othermaciej> (kungFuDeathGrip)
  211. # [07:04] <Hixie> jwalden: interesting
  212. # [07:04] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, that's where i got the name from
  213. # [07:04] <othermaciej> we usually call variables for that same purpose "protect" or "protector" or something
  214. # [07:05] <Hixie> kungFuDeathGrip is so much more vivid a variable name
  215. # [07:05] <Hixie> jruderman: any idea what test triggers the assert?
  216. # [07:05] <jwalden> Hixie: jruderman could tell you all about that (or maybe he should have brendan tell you, seeing as brendan spent so much quality time on such issues somewhat recently) :-)
  217. # [07:05] <othermaciej> shich part of the test is secretly a perf test?
  218. # [07:05] <jwalden> Hixie: it's the treewalker test with currentNode mutations; the assert doesn't have any bad side effects
  219. # [07:05] <othermaciej> *which
  220. # [07:06] <Hixie> othermaciej: test 26, the part that attempts to force a GC
  221. # [07:06] <Hixie> (and which will do more and more loops with each passing day)
  222. # [07:06] <jwalden> or at least that's which one it appears to be based on inspection+stack of the assertion
  223. # [07:06] <Hixie> (though i really should increase the number of loops quadratically to take into account moore's law)
  224. # [07:07] <jruderman> Hixie: the spreadsheet says which test it is
  225. # [07:07] <Hixie> jwalden: k
  226. # [07:07] <othermaciej> Hixie: is it because the bug it is testing for fails only when a GC happens?
  227. # [07:07] <Hixie> jruderman: there's a spreadsheet?
  228. # [07:07] <othermaciej> moore's law does not apply to RAM bandwidth
  229. # [07:07] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah
  230. # [07:07] <jruderman> Hixie: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pNgBCwWdyRTT2JeiZn4B2Yw
  231. # [07:07] <jruderman> Hixie: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=acid3 links to it
  232. # [07:08] <jwalden> that bug needs another URL field
  233. # [07:08] <Hixie> jruderman: cool
  234. # [07:08] <jruderman> jwalden: hah
  235. # [07:09] <Hixie> jruderman: the tests from 49 to 80 massively changed numbers recently, btw
  236. # [07:09] <Hixie> basicaly bucket 5 is empty right now
  237. # [07:09] <Hixie> i merged what was 4 and 5 into 5
  238. # [07:10] <jruderman> how do you decide how large each test should be? (wrt splitting / merging)
  239. # [07:11] <jwalden> Hixie: the earlier test numbers changed, too, probably a bit less, but I fixed them in the last hour or so :-)
  240. # [07:12] <Hixie> jruderman: judgement call, but basically i'd like each test to fail in at least one browser, and the more browsers fail each test the better
  241. # [07:12] <jruderman> hah
  242. # [07:12] <jruderman> if we fix a bug too soon, will it be removed from acid3 and replaced by something else?
  243. # [07:14] <Hixie> you can't fix a bug too soon
  244. # [07:15] <Hixie> however, if a test ends up not failing in any browser before the test is done, it might get replaced, if i can find something better
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  259. # [08:45] <kig> having written my own isPointInPath is proving to be a clairvoyant decision
  260. # [08:46] <kig> screw browsers, they can't be trusted anyhow
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  286. # [11:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: regarding iframe fallback content: should the fallback be expected to be targeted at Netscape 4 or is HTML5 meant to bless Opera-style disabling of iframes?
  287. # [11:52] <Hixie> i hadn't really thought about it
  288. # [11:52] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if someone should write a spec for Gecko's DTD catalog behavior so that the behavior could be considered grandfathered
  289. # [11:52] <Hixie> what difference does it make for you?
  290. # [11:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: If the parser has to treat it as CDATA and the validation layer needs to reparse it as markup, the cost/utility ratio of the whole thing is going to be seriously bad
  291. # [11:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: it is far easier to either parse it as markup the first time round or to do what is done now: parse as CDATA and not to place any conformance constraints on the text
  292. # [11:54] <Hixie> yeah i dunno
  293. # [11:54] <Hixie> i'm tempted to just say it shoul be the empty string
  294. # [11:55] <Hixie> but i dunno
  295. # [11:55] <hsivonen> as for the DTD catalog thing, I have long had an idea shelved away about validator support
  296. # [11:55] <hsivonen> that is, I could add a parser mode with Gecko DTD catalog emulation
  297. # [11:55] <Hixie> we can't parse as markup the first time around (i.e. we need to have a reparse stage somehow) because otherwise the DOM might not match reality, as it were
  298. # [11:55] <hsivonen> but I'm not sure if it would be worthwhile and Good for the Web
  299. # [11:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: OK, in that case, do we really care about checking the iframe contents?
  300. # [11:56] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  301. # [11:56] <Hixie> but if we allow <script> in the <iframe> contents, we're screwed in oh so many ways
  302. # [11:56] <Hixie> i dunno
  303. # [11:56] <hsivonen> wow. good point
  304. # [11:56] <Hixie> if we don't care, i'm just gonna require it be blank
  305. # [11:57] <Hixie> is <iframe> support widespread enough?
  306. # [11:57] <Hixie> (lynx, etc?)
  307. # [11:57] <hsivonen> can authors put a <script> in there and annoy Opera users who disable iframes?
  308. # [11:57] <Hixie> i have no idea what oepra does
  309. # [11:58] <hsivonen> Hmm. I haven't used Lynx for real browsing in a long time
  310. # [11:58] <othermaciej> DTD catalog?
  311. # [11:58] * othermaciej read the logs
  312. # [11:58] <othermaciej> I guess I should google it
  313. # [11:58] <Hixie> othermaciej: the list of bugs that microsoft put out has some bugs (things that they claim are bugs but are in fact not)
  314. # [11:59] <hsivonen> othermaciej: lxr.mozilla.org :-)
  315. # [11:59] <othermaciej> Hixie: you should wait for their list of bugs, SP1
  316. # [11:59] <Hixie> hehe
  317. # [11:59] <hsivonen> othermaciej: Gecko hard-wires certain public IDs to certain bogo-DTDs that only list character entities
  318. # [12:00] <hsivonen> othermaciej: and real Web content out there depends on it
  319. # [12:00] <othermaciej> awesome
  320. # [12:10] <hsivonen> othermaciej: http://lxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/parser/htmlparser/src/nsExpatDriver.cpp#285 that's the magic list
  321. # [12:11] <hsivonen> FWIW, I don't like the "resource://gre/res/mathml.css" bit at all
  322. # [12:13] <othermaciej> hsivonen: hey, it's your fault!
  323. # [12:14] * Quits: kfish (n=conrad@61.194.21.25) ("Pike!")
  324. # [12:14] <othermaciej> (WebKit has some hardcoded suport for HTML entities in XHTML content, probably because of that)
  325. # [12:14] <hsivonen> othermaciej: my fault?
  326. # [12:14] <othermaciej> oh, sorry
  327. # [12:14] <othermaciej> I saw you listed as the only "Contributor"
  328. # [12:15] <othermaciej> and forgot that there's also an "Original Code" statement
  329. # [12:16] <othermaciej> it's heikki's fault (whoever that is, sounds Finnish though)
  330. # [12:17] <Hixie> http://markus.fischer.name/about/archives/2005/10/17/ie-having-fun-with-js-and-links/
  331. # [12:18] <Hixie> weirdest IE7 bug ever
  332. # [12:19] <othermaciej> Hixie: holy toledo
  333. # [12:20] <Hixie> that's going in acid3 for sure
  334. # [12:20] <OmegaJunior> Yet another reason to hate MSIE
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  336. # [12:22] <othermaciej> I don't even understand how that bug could happen
  337. # [12:22] <othermaciej> it has to be somehow on purpose
  338. # [12:23] <Hixie> that's now test 99
  339. # [12:25] <Hixie> 19 bugs to go
  340. # [12:35] <Hixie> ok, i have 16 tests to write
  341. # [12:35] <Hixie> all on one topic
  342. # [12:35] <Hixie> i could cave and test svg
  343. # [12:35] <Hixie> or i could test a more modern spec that we really want implemented
  344. # [12:36] <Hixie> or i could test e4x
  345. # [12:36] <Hixie> any preferences?
  346. # [12:36] <Hixie> i could test xbl2 :-)
  347. # [12:37] <othermaciej> is e4x a desirable thing to have implemented?
  348. # [12:37] <othermaciej> we don't consider WebKit's lack of support a bug
  349. # [12:38] * Philip` almost wants DOM3 XPath
  350. # [12:39] <othermaciej> unfortunately that one is only a Note
  351. # [12:39] <Philip`> The previous version is a CR, though
  352. # [12:40] <othermaciej> so Note was just the way to abandon it before REC?
  353. # [12:40] <othermaciej> I'm actually not sure if WebKit's XPath API is that one or only the nonstandard IE stuff
  354. # [12:41] <Philip`> "The W3C DOM Working Group participants do not expect to provide two interoperable implementations of this module, /using the same binding/."
  355. # [12:41] <Philip`> Not quite sure what that means
  356. # [12:41] <hsivonen> guessing from package names, Xerces2-J has some kind of XPath DOM API
  357. # [12:41] <othermaciej> I guess they expected one Java one and one JS one
  358. # [12:41] <hsivonen> I'd expect it to be based on some kind of W3C document
  359. # [12:42] * Philip` doesn't really care what the API is, as long as it can do "find all elements matching this string" without much effort, and it seems that at least Firefox and Opera can do that in the same way
  360. # [12:46] <othermaciej> I think every major browser has some kind of XPath API
  361. # [12:46] <othermaciej> I am not sure to what extent they match
  362. # [13:01] <Hixie> i like e4x as a compile-time-syntax-checked replacement for innerHTML
  363. # [13:08] <Hixie> i have no idea what to test with these 16 tests
  364. # [13:08] <othermaciej> you mean JS-parse-time instead of HTML-parse-time (on actual use of innerHTML) syntax-checked?
  365. # [13:08] <othermaciej> (cause there is no compile time)
  366. # [13:08] <Hixie> yeah
  367. # [13:08] <Hixie> when the JS is compiled
  368. # [13:09] <othermaciej> JS parse failures tend to be more catastrophic than HTML syntax errors
  369. # [13:09] <Hixie> right, which is why you want to catch them at compile time
  370. # [13:10] <Hixie> either the script compiles, or it doesn't
  371. # [13:10] <othermaciej> if hard failure is desirable, then at least XML's model makes the cause of the failure obvious
  372. # [13:11] <othermaciej> script parse errors make the page break with no meaningful error message displayed normally
  373. # [13:11] <Hixie> manipulating markup as strings is a horrible way to work
  374. # [13:11] <othermaciej> that's true
  375. # [13:11] <Hixie> manipulating markup as DOM objects is a horrible way to work
  376. # [13:11] <Hixie> E4X provides a third option, that imho is not quite so horrible
  377. # [13:12] <Hixie> (however, given its status as quite controversial, it obviously doesn't belong in acid3)
  378. # [13:12] <Hixie> i don't know what to test in bucket 5 though
  379. # [13:12] <othermaciej> but using XML literals as part of a language syntax is gross
  380. # [13:12] <Hixie> eh
  381. # [13:12] <othermaciej> and no one implements it in a useful way anyway
  382. # [13:12] <Hixie> no more gross than using numeric literals, imho
  383. # [13:13] <Hixie> i agree that mozilla's implementation is dumb
  384. # [13:13] <othermaciej> <, = and " already have meaning in JS
  385. # [13:13] <Hixie> svg is the only thing i can think of and i really don't want to test the svg dom in acid3
  386. # [13:13] <Dashiva> heredoc xml next stop?
  387. # [13:13] <othermaciej> something with a clear delimiter would be better
  388. # [13:14] <othermaciej> so I'd actually be more excited about heredoc xml
  389. # [13:14] <othermaciej> Hixie: do you have XML tests?
  390. # [13:14] <Hixie> othermaciej: like what?
  391. # [13:14] <othermaciej> (XML DOM on actual XML documents)
  392. # [13:15] <othermaciej> presence of HTML dom on XHTML documents might be interesting too
  393. # [13:15] <othermaciej> although that's kind of in the "gratuitously mean to IE" category
  394. # [13:16] <Hixie> i have some dom2 xml tests
  395. # [13:17] <Hixie> that use the xhtml namespace
  396. # [13:17] <Hixie> i'm not sure i can come up with 16 more
  397. # [13:18] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I don't think it is gratuitously mean
  398. # [13:19] <othermaciej> ah, shit, Mac IE somehow made itself the default application for XHTML on my new laptop
  399. # [13:19] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I had a good-faith script that wasn't trying to expose any bugs that failed in WebKit in XHTML, because WebKit didn't do all the HTML DOM stuff on the XHTML side
  400. # [13:19] <othermaciej> yeah, I'm trying to remember if we fixed that yet in trunk
  401. # [13:19] <othermaciej> and whether it was broken in Safari 3
  402. # [13:20] <hsivonen> the great December content model change leads to the deletion of a lot of code...
  403. # [13:21] <Hixie> well i'll work something out tomorrow for this remaining bucket of 16 tests
  404. # [13:21] <Hixie> (suggestions welcome)
  405. # [13:22] <Hixie> nn
  406. # [13:26] <othermaciej> yeah, HTMLDocument in xhtml works in WebKit trunk (though not in Safari 3)
  407. # [13:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: nice. thanks
  408. # [13:31] <othermaciej> (we did support HTML element interfaces on xhtml elements already)
  409. # [13:34] <othermaciej> the way the E4X spec is written is weird
  410. # [13:38] <hsivonen> fun fun fun: fixing all the test cases that testing bimorphic stuff
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  414. # [15:08] <zcorpan> wtf... https://www.tdnam.com/trpItemListing.aspx?miid=10238899
  415. # [15:10] <othermaciej> did whatwg itself formerly have the .com?
  416. # [15:11] <zcorpan> don't think so
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  418. # [15:26] <zcorpan> Hixie: please test svg in acid3... not necessarily the weird svg udom parts, but basic support and support for svg in <img> and 'background' would be nice
  419. # [15:28] <zcorpan> without svg in 'background', svg is basically unusable for layout purposes
  420. # [15:29] <zcorpan> this is way more requested by authors than e4x
  421. # [15:29] <zcorpan> (in fact, i think no-one even cares about e4x)
  422. # [15:30] <zcorpan> see e.g. http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=523315
  423. # [15:33] <othermaciej> zcorpan: using SVG in CSS backgrounds is pretty bleeding-edge and not clearly justified by any spec that has ever reached CR
  424. # [15:33] <othermaciej> zcorpan: that being said I do think it is a really good feature
  425. # [15:34] <OmegaJunior> I think internal builds of Opera 9.5 have an implementation of exactly that.
  426. # [15:35] <othermaciej> WebKit trunk has an implementation of it as well
  427. # [15:36] * Philip` wondered why his page was using the incorrect font size inside <table>s, and then realised he had written <DOCTYPE HTML>
  428. # [15:36] <othermaciej> (ain't just internal)
  429. # [15:36] <Philip`> (so quirks mode is not much fun even when I'm specifically trying to avoid using it)
  430. # [15:37] <Philip`> OmegaJunior: Non-internal Opera 9.5 alphas/betas have that too
  431. # [15:39] <othermaciej> WebKit even suports svg images in -webkit-border-image
  432. # [15:40] <Philip`> Does WebKit support SVG images in canvas drawImage?
  433. # [15:40] <othermaciej> if they are in an <img> tag I'm sure it does
  434. # [15:41] <Philip`> Including SVG with foreignContent?
  435. # [15:41] <othermaciej> I don't think it supports drawImage of an <svg> element
  436. # [15:41] <othermaciej> foreignObject you mean
  437. # [15:41] <Philip`> Oops, yes
  438. # [15:41] <othermaciej> I don't see why that wouldn't work, though I haven't tried it myself
  439. # [15:42] <othermaciej> it can certainly render svg in an img or as a CSS image if it embeds non-SVG markup
  440. # [15:42] <othermaciej> I guess you could use that as a very cheesy way to get text rendering in <canvas>
  441. # [15:43] <Philip`> Does it attempt to avoid security issues, like by preventing toDataURL / getImageData after you've drawn an SVG image?
  442. # [15:43] <Philip`> If not, that may be a potential problem :-)
  443. # [15:44] <othermaciej> we don't have toDataURL or getImageData (yet)
  444. # [15:44] <othermaciej> so not an issue
  445. # [15:44] <Philip`> Oh, good point
  446. # [15:44] <othermaciej> I imagine SVG images would be subject to the same security restrictions for those purposes as regular type images
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  449. # [15:48] <Philip`> othermaciej: That might be inadequate, because it'd still let you e.g. move an <input type=file> into a same-origin SVG image and then render it onto a canvas and read the pixels to extract the file path and circumvent the browser's attempts at privacy
  450. # [15:48] <OmegaJunior> Hmm... can svg be used to draw real 3d objects? or are they mere simulations in 2d? I can imagine a conflict.
  451. # [15:49] <OmegaJunior> A conflict with getContext()
  452. # [15:49] <othermaciej> Philip`: you can read the value of <input type="file"> through the DOM
  453. # [15:50] <othermaciej> noted however that there may be security ieeus
  454. # [15:51] <othermaciej> OmegaJunior: it doesn't have real 3d, though you can sort of simulate it by moving polygons around in 2d
  455. # [15:51] <OmegaJunior> Good
  456. # [15:51] <Philip`> othermaciej: Oh, maybe I'm misremembering - Opera only returns the filename (not the displayed path) but FF and IE6 still seem to return the whole path
  457. # [15:52] <othermaciej> Safari doesn't even display the full path
  458. # [15:52] <othermaciej> (it doesn't have a type-in box for <input type="file">)
  459. # [15:53] <Philip`> (Hmm, Opera 9.2 draws a peculiar button for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cbutton%3ETest%20test_test_test_test%3C%2Fbutton )
  460. # [15:53] <Philip`> OmegaJunior: I'm not sure what you mean by "a conflict"
  461. # [15:55] <Philip`> (http://apike.ca/prog_svg_threed.html says "SVG has no 3D support. In fact, it is almost anti-3D.", which sounds possibly true - I don't remember seeing anything more advanced than a 3D cube in SVG)
  462. # [15:55] <OmegaJunior> Well, the mozilla tutorial I'm reading says only the 2d context is defined. The 3d context is theoretical at best. If SVG is used to display something in a canvas element, it will need to get a context. Following the tutorial, it will be a 2d context. However, if the SVG has 3d, it needs a 3d context. Hence the conflict. Since SVG does not do 3d, the conflict does not exist.
  463. # [15:57] <Philip`> OmegaJunior: Even if SVG did 3D things, SVG would describe how it's converted into a flat rectangular 2D bitmap, and that bitmap can be drawn onto a 2D canvas, so there wouldn't be a problem
  464. # [15:57] <OmegaJunior> Exactly.
  465. # [15:58] <Philip`> (The 3D context isn't really theoretical, given that there's at least two attempted implementations :-) )
  466. # [15:58] <OmegaJunior> Really? Awesome.
  467. # [15:58] <Philip`> http://blog.vlad1.com/2007/11/26/canvas-3d-gl-power-web-style/
  468. # [15:58] <othermaciej> this has some neat pseduo-3d in svg: http://www.lutanho.net/svgvml3d/index.html
  469. # [15:58] <Philip`> http://my.opera.com/timjoh/blog/2007/11/13/taking-the-canvas-to-another-dimension
  470. # [15:59] <OmegaJunior> OpenGL did come to mind, yes. Especially for web games.
  471. # [15:59] <othermaciej> (the rubik's cube one is neat)
  472. # [16:01] <Philip`> othermaciej: Aha, that looks better than plain cubes :-)
  473. # [16:01] <Philip`> It flickers a bit nastily in Firefox while redrawing, though
  474. # [16:01] <othermaciej> http://www.kevlindev.com/geometry/3D/js3d/index.htm
  475. # [16:02] <Philip`> Bah, wireframe is cheating :-p
  476. # [16:06] * zcorpan would appriciate feedback about http://simon.html5.org/specs/xml-stylesheet5 from webkit and mozilla people
  477. # [16:09] <othermaciej> is it substantively different from the current xml-stylesheet PI spec?
  478. # [16:10] <zcorpan> it is pretty much aligned with firefox/ie/safari, actually
  479. # [16:11] <zcorpan> the parsing part is aligned mostly with firefox, i think
  480. # [16:11] <othermaciej> I'm not sure what this means: "When the UA is to stop parsing, it must return pseudo-attributes so that the appropriate semantics can be applied."
  481. # [16:11] <othermaciej> I think the syntax would be better expressed as a BNF grammar than a state machine
  482. # [16:12] <zcorpan> yeah, i don't know how to phrase that sentence
  483. # [16:12] <zcorpan> ok. but can BNF express how to handle error conditions?
  484. # [16:13] <zcorpan> for some errors you just drop the pseudo-attribute, for others you ignore the rest of the PI
  485. # [16:15] <zcorpan> stop parsing means basically... stop the state machine and return pseudo-attributes. is that clearer?
  486. # [16:18] <othermaciej> I'm not sure "return" is the right word
  487. # [16:18] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-9bd0e2265a2e4209)
  488. # [16:18] <othermaciej> writing this in such an operational style makes it hard for me to follow
  489. # [16:18] <othermaciej> may review more later but not right now
  490. # [16:18] <zcorpan> ok
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  492. # [16:18] <zcorpan> thanks
  493. # [16:19] <othermaciej> (gotta admit ?xml-styleshet? PI interop isn't that high on my personal priority list)
  494. # [16:19] <zcorpan> yeah, but the parsing part also applies to access-control and xbl
  495. # [16:20] <othermaciej> it would really be better if XML PIs applied XML-style draconian parsing to PI pseudo-attributes, just as if they were XML element attributes
  496. # [16:21] <othermaciej> that would be more consistent
  497. # [16:21] <othermaciej> I don't know if that creates compatibility issues for ?xml-stylesheet? specifically
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  499. # [16:23] <Philip`> Does anyone know how current content relies on PI parsing?
  500. # [16:24] <othermaciej> I don't think there is that much CSS-styled XML on the web in general
  501. # [16:24] <othermaciej> (I guess the PI can also request XSLT processing, which may be more common; dunno)
  502. # [16:25] * Philip` sees things like <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
  503. # [16:25] <Philip`> (in text/html documents)
  504. # [16:27] <othermaciej> looks like that syntax might be part of an obsolete version of Namespaces in XML: http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/WD-xml-names-19980518
  505. # [16:28] <othermaciej> nowadays use of that syntax would not be namespace-well-formed
  506. # [16:30] <OmegaJunior> Knowing the vendor, that means our parsers and validators have to allow for their kinks.
  507. # [16:30] <othermaciej> if that's in text/html content I am not sure it has much bearing on what needs to be allowed in XML
  508. # [16:31] <OmegaJunior> Hopefully none
  509. # [16:34] <Philip`> <?xml version=\"1.0\" encoding=\"UTF-8\"?>
  510. # [16:34] <Philip`> <?xml-stylesheet type=\"text/css\" href=\"css/standard.css\"?>
  511. # [16:34] <Philip`> on http://www.kletterzentrum-badtoelz.de/ though that redirects immediately away from there anyway
  512. # [16:34] <Philip`> Does xml-stylesheet ever do anything in text/html?
  513. # [16:35] <OmegaJunior> Yes, it works perfectly in Internet Explorer
  514. # [16:35] <OmegaJunior> (Tried it)
  515. # [16:36] <OmegaJunior> Remember that Internet Explorer doesn't do application/xhtml+xml, so anything that resembles html or xhtml will have to be sent as text/html
  516. # [16:36] <OmegaJunior> Hopefully this will change with MSIE8, but I doubt it.
  517. # [16:36] <OmegaJunior> As a result, MSIE renders xhtml as tag soup.
  518. # [16:40] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/pis.html is everything starting with "<?" in ~15K pages
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  520. # [16:49] <Philip`> http://www.montere.it/ - <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1 Transitional//IT" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> - hmm, not quite the right idea there
  521. # [16:56] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-137-236-187.range86-137.btcentralplus.com)
  522. # [17:00] <kig> hmm
  523. # [17:07] <kig> this'll be either difficult, slow, or a pain
  524. # [17:08] <Philip`> That's not too bad, if it's 'either' rather than all
  525. # [17:08] <kig> (drawing and animating a full-screen svg on canvas)
  526. # [17:09] <kig> difficult: only redraw portions that have changed
  527. # [17:09] <kig> slow: redraw everything
  528. # [17:10] <kig> pain: manually split document into layers, render them into images and hope that the html image renderer is faster than the canvas one
  529. # [17:11] * Joins: aroben (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  530. # [17:11] <Philip`> Given the performance of background-position:fixed, I don't think I'd trust the browser to render layers fast
  531. # [17:12] <Philip`> (at least when the layers are moving relative to each other)
  532. # [17:12] <Lachy> wow, what a great example of why RDFa is a bad idea. http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/01/rdfa_and_html_imagemap.html - That's so complex and unnecessary. The SVG effect could be done entirely without the RDFa
  533. # [17:14] <Philip`> Lachy: The SVG effects *is* done entirely without the RDFa
  534. # [17:14] <Philip`> (or at least I can't see any RDFa bits in the XSLT code)
  535. # [17:17] <hsivonen> http://dubinko.info/blog/2008/01/07/yahoo-introduces-mobile-xforms/ is that a multi-UA thing or using a W3C spec as part of a single-UA system (like, e.g., Joost)?
  536. # [17:19] <Lachy> Philip`, yes, I know. That's why I said the RDFa wasn't necessary. It's just there as useless metadata
  537. # [17:24] <hsivonen> if a metadatum falls in the forest and there's no one to interpret it, is it a metadatum?
  538. # [17:25] <Philip`> Yes by definition, sine you already said it was a metadatum :-)
  539. # [17:25] <Philip`> *since
  540. # [17:27] <Lachy> hsivonen, I think that should be "if a metadatum falls in the forest and there's no one to interpret it, is it [useful?]"
  541. # [17:29] <Philip`> I assume the problem comes from saying "I'd like a way to say, "this area of the image depicts the person who is the primaryTopic of http://danbri.org/".", rather than e.g. "I'd like a way to say "who is in this picture?" so that I can stalk people by finding all the photos (on a certain subset of web sites) that are linked to their homepage"
  542. # [17:30] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  543. # [17:32] <Philip`> but maybe that's just a simple fundamental difference of perspective, about the value of providing data without prior knowledge of how the data will be used
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  548. # [17:39] <zcorpan> othermaciej: opera does drocanian parsing for xml-stylesheet currently
  549. # [17:39] <zcorpan> but i don't think it makes sense
  550. # [17:39] <zcorpan> what do you do when you create or update the PI with script?
  551. # [17:40] * Parts: OmegaJunior (n=ZJr@a82-95-48-162.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  552. # [17:40] <zcorpan> should the xml processor have to know about xml-stylesheet, access-control and xbl? and other future PIs that might use pseudo-attributes?
  553. # [17:42] <zcorpan> speaking of which... i think i'll move the requirement about the placement of the PI from the parsing rules to the processing rules... since future PIs with pseudo-attributes might want to allow them in other places than in the prolog
  554. # [17:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: by definition, no, but the next layer should
  555. # [17:43] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  556. # [17:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok, wrongly phrased... why should the well-formedness of a given document depend on whether the UA supports xml-stylesheet, access-control or xbl?
  557. # [17:46] <hsivonen> zcorpan: well-formedness shouldn't. but rephrasing: why should YSoD depend on support for a particular PI
  558. # [17:47] <hsivonen> the Web is probably better off if there are as few YSoD reasons as possible
  559. # [17:47] <zcorpan> indeed
  560. # [17:47] <zcorpan> that's why my spec removes fatal errors for PIs
  561. # [17:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan: you could, though, be Draconian about what causes a PI to be rejected from further processing
  562. # [17:48] <zcorpan> yes
  563. # [17:48] <zcorpan> <?xml-stylesheet =="" href="a"?> is the same as <?xml-stylesheet?>
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  572. # [18:55] <kig> Philip`: http://glimr.rubyforge.org/cake/canvas.html#DesignSketching <- the "pain" approach, not that it's much faster than the "slow" approach (20fps vs 10fps. though, if that were 60fps vs 30fps...)
  573. # [18:59] <Philip`> kig: Opera 9.2 really isn't very good at this :-(
  574. # [18:59] <kig> i can imagine
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  580. # [19:03] <kig> might be easiest to make the site an svg document with html on top and a clipped canvas. but. uh.
  581. # [19:04] <kig> that's not going to look nice in firefox
  582. # [19:04] <Philip`> Why not?
  583. # [19:05] <kig> because firefox doesn't double-buffer svgs
  584. # [19:06] <Philip`> Ah
  585. # [19:06] <kig> (and i'd like to stay as far away from the <object>-tag as humanly possible)
  586. # [19:07] <Philip`> You could just use a PNG ;-)
  587. # [19:13] * Quits: aroben (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  588. # [19:15] <kig> or wmv..
  589. # [19:15] <Philip`> You can use APNG to do things like slowly-fading-out trails, in a not-too-inefficient way
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  608. # [20:43] <kig> creating fewer arrays per frame sure reduces GC runs
  609. # [20:44] <kig> reusing a matrix arrays now..
  610. # [20:44] <kig> -a
  611. # [20:48] <Philip`> You should avoid the GC entirely by packing all your data structures into integers
  612. # [20:49] <Philip`> Store two 10.5 fixed-point values per variable, use three variables per matrix, and it'll work perfectly!
  613. # [20:49] <kig> ssss
  614. # [20:49] <kig> sounds like a plan!
  615. # [20:50] <kig> i thought of writing a temp object allocator
  616. # [20:50] <Philip`> (How are you detecting the number of GC runs?)
  617. # [20:51] <kig> by watching the fps histogram when running an animation and "hey, it's 0.5fps now, go GC go!"
  618. # [20:52] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  619. # [20:52] <Philip`> Perhaps not quite the most scientific method :-)
  620. # [20:54] <kig> i could automate the fps-watching and draw pretty graphs titled "fps glitches per minute per browser"
  621. # [20:54] <kig> or maybe not bother
  622. # [20:54] <Philip`> I was thinking more of getting the GC system itself to tell you what it's doing
  623. # [20:54] * Philip` goes away a bit
  624. # [20:54] <kig> that'd be harder :|
  625. # [21:00] <kig> temp array allocator: free-stack and reserved-list, alloc : function() { var a = free.pop(); reserved.push(a); }, free : function(a) { reserved.deleteFirst(a); maybeClear(a); free.push(a); }; all the joys of C with none of the performance
  626. # [21:28] <Philip`> I think I got useful GC numbers out of SpiderMonkey when embedding it into some other application, without too much bother, so perhaps Firefox could be modified a bit to report some numbers
  627. # [21:28] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  628. # [21:28] <Philip`> (or maybe it's easier to just use DTrace or something, except I haven't got a clue how to use that)
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  631. # [21:37] <gsnedders> Philip`: DTrace for what? JS?
  632. # [21:37] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  633. # [21:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: Yes
  634. # [21:38] <Philip`> (particulary garbage collection)
  635. # [21:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: there's a patch for SpiderMonkey out there somewhere, IIRC
  636. # [21:39] <gsnedders> (which of course requires an OS that supports DTrace)
  637. # [21:40] <Philip`> (It's not like many people have Solaris desktops, so you might as well just say "OS X" :-p )
  638. # [21:42] <gsnedders> Only Leopard :P
  639. # [21:42] <gsnedders> And only OpenSolaris based Solaris builds :P
  640. # [21:42] <gsnedders> (or is DTrace in Solaris 10?)
  641. # [21:42] * gsnedders looks up
  642. # [21:42] <gsnedders> seemingly yes
  643. # [21:44] <Philip`> Seems it was in Solaris 10 and not in 9
  644. # [21:45] <Philip`> except http://www.usenix.org/event/usenix04/tech/general/full_papers/cantrill/cantrill_html/ was before Solaris 10 was released, apparently
  645. # [21:45] <Philip`> (and says it was publicly available at that time)
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  647. # [21:54] * eseidelOut is now known as eseidel
  648. # [22:02] <kig> Philip`: btw, happen to know a way to do an in_fill check for a bezier path?
  649. # [22:05] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@202.0.36.64)
  650. # [22:08] <eseidel> Philip`: I think http://apike.ca/prog_svg_threed.html is broken. I think it depends on broken ASV behavior (of running all scripts *after* the document fully loads)
  651. # [22:11] <Philip`> kig: I guess you could do the non-zero-winding thing just with line/Bezier intersections, like http://www.kevlindev.com/gui/math/intersection/Intersection.js intersectBezier3Line, though that sounds a bit inefficient
  652. # [22:11] <eseidel> Philip`: Opera, FF and Safari all fail with that SVG
  653. # [22:11] <eseidel> Philip`: if you believe it's a browser error, we'd love to see a bug filed
  654. # [22:12] <Philip`> eseidel: Hmm, I thought I remembered seeing it working in a sensible browser at some point in the past
  655. # [22:12] <kig> Philip`: thanks, it isn't really speed-critical as i can ditch most paths with a bbox check
  656. # [22:14] <Philip`> eseidel: but I can't get it to work in any browser now, so I'll guess the code is just broken
  657. # [22:14] <eseidel> Philip`: it might work in IE+ASVG
  658. # [22:14] <eseidel> ASV, rather
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  671. # [23:42] * Philip` wonders how best to handle multiple lights in GLSL
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  676. # [23:57] * jgraham notes the main network in his department is entirely Solaris-on-the-desktop (though I think they are all running Solaris 9)
  677. # Session Close: Wed Jan 09 00:00:00 2008

The end :)