/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-01-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jan 14 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <gsnedders> Nice, my… would be thankful.
  4. # [00:00] <gsnedders> Wait, I don't have any relatives over >108.
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  10. # [00:48] <jwalden> Hixie: if you want a really evil testcase for createElementNS, createElementNS("http://example.com/", "a:\u0BC6") should throw with e.code == 14 (the Unicode char is a CombiningChar, which is NCNameChar but not Letter | "_")
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  19. # [01:24] <jwalden> Hixie: or, really, anything in <http://bugs.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=18427>, but watch out for the ones where the printed message says that I think either can apply
  20. # [01:26] <jwalden> blah
  21. # [01:27] <jwalden> Hixie: createElementNS(null, ":div") can't be tested because ":div" is both an invalid XML name and an invalid QName, so either exception might be thrown
  22. # [01:27] <jwalden> given the spec's prose
  23. # [01:30] <jwalden> oh, blah
  24. # [01:30] <jwalden> I'm wrong about that in the XML 1.0 spec
  25. # [01:30] <jwalden> more blah
  26. # [01:31] <jwalden> it depends on the current XML version
  27. # [01:31] <jwalden> crazy, crazy mess
  28. # [01:33] * jwalden wonders whose idiotic idea it was to not put namespaces in XML 1.0 if they wanted namespaces to happen compatibly
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  30. # [01:44] <anne-mac> @media not all and (bogus) should not match I think
  31. # [01:44] <anne-mac> in fact, the entire rule should be ignored
  32. # [01:45] <anne-mac> having said that, this might not be clear in older versions of the media queries spec
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  34. # [01:49] <jwalden> sigh
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  38. # [01:59] <othermaciej> jwalden: which bit were you wrong about
  39. # [01:59] <othermaciej> ?
  40. # [01:59] <othermaciej> ;s
  41. # [01:59] <othermaciej> is ":div" actually a valid QName
  42. # [01:59] <othermaciej> or a valid XML name?
  43. # [01:59] <jwalden> not QName, but it's a valid XML name
  44. # [01:59] * jwalden uploads the fixed test to the webkit bug
  45. # [02:00] <jwalden> at least in XML 1.0
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  58. # [06:40] <Hixie> MacDome_: the test is based on this sentence in the media queries spec: "Expressions involving unknown media features or unknown/illegal values are always false"
  59. # [06:40] <Hixie> MacDome_: where i'm interpreting "expression" to mean "media_que... oh. wait. that's wrong.
  60. # [06:40] <Hixie> hm.
  61. # [06:41] * Hixie goes to fix the test
  62. # [06:45] <Hixie> yay, it found a new bug in webkit
  63. # [07:07] <Hixie> sayrer: the range tests were a bitch to write, the spec is so damned vague
  64. # [07:18] <Hixie> hey if anyone is around, i just updated the text at the bottom of acid3, what do you think? http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/acid/003/NOT_READY_PLEASE_DO_NOT_USE.html
  65. # [07:22] <jruderman> it's covered by a red square with a cat in it
  66. # [07:22] <jruderman> i don't see how you can expect the animation to be smooth with the gc hack / "perf test" in the middle
  67. # [07:23] <jruderman> what changed in that text? just 100% --> 100/100?
  68. # [07:26] <othermaciej> the animation is pretty smooth in Safari
  69. # [07:26] <othermaciej> it does visibly pause very briefly around 20 though
  70. # [07:26] <othermaciej> I don't think it's fair to require other browsers to be as fast as Safari
  71. # [07:27] <jruderman> whether perf is adequate depends on the machine and is subjective. i don't think perf testing belongs in acid3.
  72. # [07:31] <Hixie> i think it's entirely fair to requires browsers to be as fast as safari, given what's in the perf test and what the Web is headed towards (big web apps that do DOM manipulation up the wazoo)
  73. # [07:31] <Hixie> the whole point of acid3 is to guide browsers towards being better for running big web apps
  74. # [07:32] <Hixie> jruderman: (btw the red cat is showing a bug in whatever browser you tested)
  75. # [07:33] <jruderman> safari 3. kinda annoying that it covers the instructions ;)
  76. # [07:34] <Hixie> :-)
  77. # [07:34] <Hixie> oh wow yeah, safari 3 covers them up more than the webkit trunk
  78. # [07:35] <othermaciej> Hixie: maybe after a few hardware generations they will have a chance
  79. # [07:36] <Hixie> actually they won't, the test increases the number of loops based on the current time :-P
  80. # [07:39] <othermaciej> exponentially?
  81. # [07:40] <Hixie> no, linearly
  82. # [07:41] <Hixie> it's not really CPU bound, i would imagine
  83. # [07:41] <Hixie> probably more memory-bound
  84. # [07:41] <Hixie> there's a lot of allocation in the loop
  85. # [07:42] <othermaciej> isn't it a lot of allocation of things that are immediately garbage
  86. # [07:42] <othermaciej> ?
  87. # [07:42] <Hixie> not immediately
  88. # [07:42] <Hixie> but yes, at the end of the loop
  89. # [07:44] <Hixie> it creates a date, and then converts that to a string using a lambda, and then creates a text node with that string's value, then creates an element with that text node as a child, then inserts that node into the document, does a regexp on it, sets a class with that element's textContent, and then finally removes it from the document and drops it on the floor
  90. # [07:45] <Hixie> so it's mostly shuffling data around memory, not intense computation.
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  92. # [07:45] <Hixie> i thought i'd leave that to sunspider
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  97. # [08:35] <MacDome_> Hixie?
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  100. # [08:36] <Hixie> MacDome: yo
  101. # [08:36] * MacDome thinks it's totally fair to ask browsers to be faster than Safari
  102. # [08:37] <MacDome> Hixie: new bug in WK?
  103. # [08:37] * MacDome hurt his thuumb playing guitar tonight :(
  104. # [08:37] <Hixie> WK?
  105. # [08:37] <Hixie> new bug?
  106. # [08:37] * Hixie confused
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  108. # [08:39] <MacDome> webkit
  109. # [08:40] <MacDome> WK=WebKit, FF=Firefox, IE=Internet Explorer, WC=WebCore, SS=SunSpider, JSC=JavaScriptCore
  110. # [08:40] <MacDome> I think that's all the acronyms I use on a regular basis :)
  111. # [08:40] <MacDome> "<Hixie> yay, it found a new bug in webkit"
  112. # [08:41] <Hixie> oh
  113. # [08:41] <Hixie> heh
  114. # [08:41] <Hixie> that
  115. # [08:42] <Hixie> i fixed a bug, and was expecting webkit to totally pass the relevant subtest
  116. # [08:42] <Hixie> but then one of the next bits of that test still failed
  117. # [08:42] <Hixie> so i was happy
  118. # [08:45] <MacDome> sweeeet. no morning meetings!
  119. # [08:47] <MacDome> Hixie: if you'd liek to demonstrate brokeness in WebKIt, manipulate the DOM not using Range methods and watch the Range get out of sync :(
  120. # [08:47] <Hixie> already in the test
  121. # [08:47] <MacDome> k
  122. # [08:47] <MacDome> Hixie: I also found a few more Range edge cases in my testsing
  123. # [08:47] <MacDome> which I've not yet fixed, but plan to fil a bug on
  124. # [08:50] <Hixie> cool
  125. # [08:50] <Hixie> cc me :-)
  126. # [08:52] * MacDome doesn't quite understand what's going wrong with the cursor test
  127. # [08:53] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-35-155.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  128. # [08:55] <MacDome> Hixie: why would this match?
  129. # [08:55] <MacDome> style.appendChild(doc.createTextNode('@media (bogus), all { #h { text-transform: uppercase; } }')); // matches
  130. # [08:55] <MacDome> shouldn't it fail to parse?
  131. # [08:55] <Hixie> why would it fail to parse?
  132. # [08:56] <Hixie> it's an expression with an unknown keyword, which evaluates to false, and a media query "all", which always evaluates to true
  133. # [08:56] <MacDome> but ( is not a valid keyword char
  134. # [08:57] <MacDome> Hixie: I mean... the spec isn't very clear. and I'm not sure what our impl is actually doing in that case, maybe @media (monchrome), all would be a better test
  135. # [08:57] <MacDome> since IMO that should also fail due to a misparse
  136. # [08:57] <othermaciej> Range is a crazy API
  137. # [08:58] <MacDome> Hixie: the grammar is quiet clear, the question is if ( and ) can be interpreted as part of a media_feature and thus be an "unknown media feature" and thus be false
  138. # [08:58] <MacDome> Hixie: if they can't be part of a media_feature, than it's a parse error, and is silently ignored
  139. # [08:58] <Hixie> "@media (monchrome), all" would be a very different test, since it would be testing something else on a monochrome UA
  140. # [08:58] <MacDome> IMO it's a parse error :)
  141. # [08:59] <MacDome> Hixie: well, the point there was that it's a valid keyword with extra parenthesis
  142. # [08:59] <Hixie> he spec very clearly says: "Expressions involving unknown media features or unknown/illegal values are always false"
  143. # [08:59] <MacDome> yeah, so the only part of that which applies here is "unknown media features"
  144. # [08:59] <MacDome> since "values" is on the other side of a colon
  145. # [08:59] <MacDome> so can ( ) be part of an "unknown media feature" ?
  146. # [09:00] <Hixie> oh i see, you're saying "(color)" is not valid because it doesn't have a media keyword first
  147. # [09:00] <MacDome> I kinda doubt it. the parser would reject them as being a different token
  148. # [09:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan: restored method="post" enctype="multipart/form-data" on the file upload form. sorry about that.
  149. # [09:00] <Hixie> hm, some parts of media queries say the media keyword is required and others don't
  150. # [09:00] <MacDome> Hixie: it's kinda like saying if @media ,,,,,,, , all { } should match
  151. # [09:00] <MacDome> saying that ",,,,,,," would be an "unknown media feature"
  152. # [09:01] <MacDome> which I would argue is rather a "parse error"
  153. # [09:01] <Hixie> we're arguing different things
  154. # [09:01] <Hixie> i had thought <media_type> was optional, as some of the examples imply it is
  155. # [09:01] <MacDome> Hixie: yes, @media (color) is equally invalid
  156. # [09:01] <Hixie> but it seems the examples are invalid
  157. # [09:02] <MacDome> the spec is quite clear on where parens are allowed
  158. # [09:02] <MacDome> even if stupidly clear
  159. # [09:02] <MacDome> equally so for the "not" keyword
  160. # [09:03] <Hixie> fixed subtest h
  161. # [09:03] <Hixie> fixed subtest l too
  162. # [09:04] <jwalden> Hixie: test 5 isn't done yet, right?
  163. # [09:05] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  164. # [09:06] <jwalden> Hixie: the line which compares against "!!!" -- I don't see how that could possibly be in the DOM at that point
  165. # [09:07] <Hixie> oops, crap, i forgot to fix the tests depending on !!!
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  167. # [09:07] <Hixie> when i removed the !!!
  168. # [09:08] <jwalden> heh
  169. # [09:08] * MacDome thinks hixie might have actually found a bug finally in kompo's code with test v
  170. # [09:08] <MacDome> so far Kompo's code has been BUG FREE :)
  171. # [09:09] <jwalden> just like all the code I've ever written, right?
  172. # [09:09] <jwalden> and all the code you've ever written
  173. # [09:09] <jwalden> :-P
  174. # [09:09] <Hixie> fixed test 5
  175. # [09:09] <MacDome> jwalden: oh, my code is never bug free :)
  176. # [09:09] <MacDome> I just write a lot of it to make up for it
  177. # [09:09] <MacDome> and surround myself with people who seem to be good and cleaning up my messes
  178. # [09:09] <Hixie> MacDome: nope, sadly for me, webkit now passes the media queries test
  179. # [09:09] <MacDome> (and seem to enjoy it)
  180. # [09:09] <MacDome> Hixie: oh, was "v' wrong too?
  181. # [09:10] <jwalden> nobody's code is bug-free
  182. # [09:10] <Hixie> MacDome: yeah
  183. # [09:10] <MacDome> oh
  184. # [09:10] <MacDome> Hixie: blame Kompo
  185. # [09:10] <jwalden> 66->67 pass now in my build :-)
  186. # [09:10] <Hixie> there has to be SOME bug here
  187. # [09:10] <Hixie> :-P
  188. # [09:10] <Hixie> the real test i want to do involves shrinking the viewport dynamically
  189. # [09:10] <MacDome> Hixie: there are are a bunch which we don't implement
  190. # [09:11] <MacDome> color-index is one
  191. # [09:11] <MacDome> Hixie: there is a bug I filed on it
  192. # [09:11] <Hixie> oh
  193. # [09:11] <Hixie> well
  194. # [09:11] <MacDome> Hixie: but you're kinda venturing into the obscure now
  195. # [09:11] <Hixie> yes
  196. # [09:11] <jwalden> "now"?
  197. # [09:11] * MacDome pulls Hixie back from the crazy weeds before he gets lost
  198. # [09:11] <Hixie> jwalden: ?
  199. # [09:12] <jwalden> Hixie: nothing other than the echoing of bz's sentiments, more or less
  200. # [09:12] <MacDome> woh. suddenly were back up to 73!
  201. # [09:12] <MacDome> 74 if I fix up my :div patch
  202. # [09:13] <Hixie> jwalden: which ones?
  203. # [09:13] * MacDome wants to see Darin's patch land and fix all the iterator tests
  204. # [09:13] <jwalden> jwalden: that the tests are getting obscure in what's being tested
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  206. # [09:14] <jwalden> I mean, I really don't know that ranges are used all that often, tbh
  207. # [09:14] <jwalden> or would be if browsers all implemented them correctly
  208. # [09:15] <Hixie> jwalden: DOM ranges are used a lot, actually, mostly for handing text selection
  209. # [09:15] <Hixie> handling
  210. # [09:16] <Hixie> people complain about them all the time
  211. # [09:16] <Hixie> that's how i came across the bugs that i tested in acid3
  212. # [09:16] <othermaciej> ranges are used a fair amount
  213. # [09:16] <othermaciej> TreeWalker and NodeIterator, I think not so much
  214. # [09:16] <jwalden> huh
  215. # [09:17] <MacDome> jwalden: I would agree, I think Ranges are useful
  216. # [09:17] <othermaciej> execCommand is probably used more than either, but has not yet gotten to CR (or even WD yet) in standard form
  217. # [09:18] * MacDome is very much in favor of fixing ranges
  218. # [09:18] <Hixie> TreeWalker and NodeIterator would be used a lot more if they actually worked and people knew about them.
  219. # [09:19] <jwalden> Hixie: in moz-land it's been pointed out to me that |var nullInRegexpArgumentResult = 0 < /script/.test('\0script') ? "failed" : "passed";| should correctly return "failed", because test() returns true
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  224. # [09:52] <Hixie> i'm about to announce a competition to get more tests for acid3
  225. # [09:52] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/acid/003/competition/
  226. # [09:52] <Hixie> can anyone proof-read the rules and see if i missed anythin?
  227. # [09:55] <jwalden> I'd not say 'returns "5"' if you don't want someone to submit something which returns the string "5"
  228. # [09:56] <Philip`> It would be helpful to give an example of how you indicate failure
  229. # [09:56] <Philip`> (like what kind of exception to throw)
  230. # [09:57] <Philip`> It's not really a competition if there's no prizes
  231. # [09:57] <jwalden> I assume Hixie's going to clean up submitted tests to report in the way all the others are reporting
  232. # [09:57] <jwalden> with just as good error messages, etc.
  233. # [09:58] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  234. # [09:58] <Hixie> he prize is your name in the source :-P
  235. # [09:59] <Hixie> (and thanks for the other suggestions; fixed)
  236. # [09:59] <jwalden> oh, Hixie: you should add an extra way to display test results that uses window.open with a data: URL, so you can reasonably see all the results without blowing away display of acid3 :-)
  237. # [10:00] <Hixie> yeah
  238. # [10:00] <Hixie> good idea
  239. # [10:00] <Hixie> will look into it
  240. # [10:01] <Hixie> oh oops, i missed off the paragraph saying the name would be in the source
  241. # [10:01] <Hixie> duh
  242. # [10:03] <Hixie> ok, blogged it
  243. # [10:04] * MacDome is now known as MacDomeSleep
  244. # [10:05] <MacDomeSleep> Hixie: looks fine... but I'm sad that you require trunk builds to fail :(
  245. # [10:05] * MacDomeSleep had hoped to get away with Safari 3 failing
  246. # [10:05] <Hixie> MacDomeSleep: heh
  247. # [10:06] <MacDomeSleep> I guess trunk builds failing means that it won't be a repeat of one of your existing tests
  248. # [10:09] <Hixie> :-)
  249. # [10:10] <MacDomeSleep> Hixie: you realize that you're deincentivizing us from fixing existing acid3 tests
  250. # [10:10] <MacDomeSleep> encouraging us to wait :)
  251. # [10:10] <MacDomeSleep> hyatt has at least decided to wait
  252. # [10:11] <Hixie> well, if you wait it'll certainly make _my_ life easier :-)
  253. # [10:11] <MacDomeSleep> really?
  254. # [10:11] <MacDomeSleep> why so?
  255. # [10:11] <MacDomeSleep> we're doing lots of work for you!
  256. # [10:11] <Hixie> won't have to keep coming up with new tests :-P
  257. # [10:11] <MacDomeSleep> we're debugging your darn test!
  258. # [10:11] <Hixie> yes, that actually is very helpful
  259. # [10:11] <jwalden> true 'dat
  260. # [10:11] <MacDomeSleep> Hixie: I'm suggesting you not come up with new ones :)
  261. # [10:11] <MacDomeSleep> it's OK if WebKit passes w/ 100% when you release :)
  262. # [10:12] <MacDomeSleep> so long as FF and Opera don't :)
  263. # [10:12] <Hixie> if i were you i would not let the acid3 test affect your priorities either one way or the other
  264. # [10:12] <MacDomeSleep> Hixie: well, I just do it for fun
  265. # [10:12] <Hixie> you should prioritise the bugs based on how important they are
  266. # [10:12] <Hixie> sure
  267. # [10:12] <MacDomeSleep> then again, that's pretty much all my webkit hacking
  268. # [10:12] <MacDomeSleep> my actual "priorities" lie elsewhere
  269. # [10:14] <Hixie> i just meant you as in the project as a whole
  270. # [10:16] <Hixie> bed time
  271. # [10:16] <Hixie> nn
  272. # [10:16] <MacDomeSleep> Hixie: German, French or Italian?
  273. # [10:16] <MacDomeSleep> for some definition of "german" :)
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  279. # [10:43] <Philip`> Hixie: Maybe you could test something like http://tinyurl.com/38d3lj if you haven't already - unless something changed since I last looked, WebKit doesn't handle dynamic updates with sibling selectors
  280. # [10:44] * hsivonen smiles at Hixie commit message for the subtitle
  281. # [10:44] <hsivonen> Hixie's even
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  287. # [11:30] <Lachy> Hixie, why is the subtitle missing from the whatwg version of the spec?
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  295. # [12:09] <Dashiva> Lachy: Probably because whatwg doesn't have the same process requirements as w3c
  296. # [12:09] <Dashiva> (to put it in a nice way)
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  299. # [12:20] <Lachy> maybe, but we want people to understand that the specs are mostly identical (excluding the metadata at the top), and differences like that might send the wrong message.
  300. # [12:20] <hsivonen> I agree with Lachy
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  303. # [12:34] <Philip`> Lachy: The subtitle is metadata at the top
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  305. # [12:37] <Philip`> kig: With http://glimr.rubyforge.org/cake/canvas.html#ImageDataFill are you aware that the putImageData won't necessarily draw 640x120 canvas pixels (e.g. it might be drawn at half the intended size in some implementations)?
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  307. # [12:39] <Lachy> Philip`, I was just referring to the the links to version history/other versions, copyright statement, etc.
  308. # [12:39] <Philip`> and the abstract?
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  310. # [12:41] <hsivonen> is there a sure exec trick for self-restarting a CPython script regardless of what the interpreter and script paths are?
  311. # [12:41] <Lachy> yeah, everything down to the TOC. But, arguably, the abstract should be identical
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  314. # [12:44] <kig> Philip`: . uh .. really?
  315. # [12:46] <kig> it's not quite fast enough to be of much use anyhow but screwing up blitting is pretty high on the "why do they even bother"-scale
  316. # [12:46] <Philip`> kig: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-the-canvas.html#getimagedata says "Note: The width and height (w and h) might be different than the sw and sh arguments to the function, e.g. if the canvas is backed by a high-resolution bitmap."
  317. # [12:47] <Philip`> and the example below says "The data returned by getImageData() is at the resolution of the canvas backing store, which is likely to not be one device pixel to each CSS pixel if the display used is a high resolution display. Thus, while one could create an ImageData object, one would net necessarily know what resolution the canvas expected (how many pixels the canvas wants to paint over one coordinate space unit pixel)."
  318. # [12:47] <kig> oh that
  319. # [12:47] <Philip`> The problem is that WebKit wants to implement it with that kind of scaling, and it seems like a big pain since it'll break everyone because nobody expects it
  320. # [12:48] <kig> i'm correcting for that in the mouse coords (discounting -webkit-transform) but haven't done anything with putImageData
  321. # [12:49] <Philip`> (so it'd be nice to have a better solution for this, where authors don't have to be so careful to not get it wrong and break Safari)
  322. # [12:50] <kig> get the real width and real height, scale
  323. # [12:50] <Philip`> kig: It's not about CSS scaling (or transforms) of the displayed canvas - it's about how many pixels the implementation stores for a <canvas width=100 height=100>
  324. # [12:51] <kig> ah
  325. # [12:51] <kig> search for pixel width & pixel height with one-pixel putImageData + getImageData -combos?
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  327. # [12:53] <Philip`> I think you can't get the right numbers from one-pixel ImageDatas, since there might be 0.5 real-pixels per canvas-pixel, or might be 1.5, etc
  328. # [12:53] <kig> okay, so don't use ImageData
  329. # [12:53] <kig> problem solved, let's use gl canvas instead
  330. # [12:54] <Philip`> That makes the feature a bit useless, which isn't a great solution :-)
  331. # [12:55] <Philip`> It'd be nice if we could fix ImageData but I don't know how :-(
  332. # [12:56] <kig> ditch the "ha ha ha the real width of a canvas in pixels is UNKNOWABLE!", perhaps?
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  335. # [12:58] <Philip`> kig: The objection to that is that people want to run e.g. Safari on OS X with a 400% UI scaling factor on a really-high-res display, and want the canvas to be implemented with 4x as many pixels per side so that it's still sharp and vector-like
  336. # [12:58] <kig> that doesn't stop you from knowing the width of the canvas in pixels
  337. # [12:59] <kig> canvas.getPixelWidth(), getPixelHeight() ?
  338. # [12:59] <Philip`> Ah, so you'd manually read canvas.realWidth or something?
  339. # [13:00] <Philip`> then I guess you'd use putImageData({ width: w*Math.round(canvas.realWidth/canvas.width), ... })
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  341. # [13:01] <Philip`> and also your array-filling code would take n^2 more time when the scaling factor increases, which sounds like great fun
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  343. # [13:05] <Philip`> Maybe it'd be nearly as good to just use getImageData(x, y, w, h) first to get the .width and .height, then overwrite all the .data and put it back
  344. # [13:05] <Philip`> since the extra cost of creating a JS array of integers should be negligible compared to the cost of manipulating it with JS and then converting it back into a C array
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  348. # [13:16] * kig counted something like nine branches per pixel in firefox's canvas.putImageData
  349. # [13:18] <kig> for each component, errorcheck value, check if float or int, cast accordingly
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  352. # [13:53] <kig> Philip`: why doing SVD to decompose transformation matrices into rotate+scale+rotate is a bad idea: http://glimr.rubyforge.org/cake/benchmark.html
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  354. # [13:54] <Philip`> kig: Firefox needs to do more comparisons to clamp to 0-255, too
  355. # [13:55] <Philip`> kig: There's broken character encoding on benchmark.html :-p
  356. # [13:56] <Philip`> Also, that does look like a problem
  357. # [13:57] <zcorpan> Hixie: hmm, why w3c version only? i think more people "don't read" the whatwg version
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  359. # [14:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fphilip.html5.org%2Fdemos%2Fcanvas%2F3d%2Fx3d%2Ftest.xhtml&charset=&nsfilter=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.web3d.org%2Fspecifications%2Fx3d-namespace
  360. # [14:09] <hsivonen> enjoy the creeping featurism :-)
  361. # [14:15] <Philip`> hsivonen: Looks good :-)
  362. # [14:16] <Philip`> though could the "Namespace Filter" words be made non-breakingly-spaced, since there's plenty of horizontal room on the screen and it looks a little inconsistent when it's wrapped?
  363. # [14:18] <zcorpan> hsivonen: now we're talking :D
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  365. # [14:20] <Lachy> Hixie, is the prize for the acid3 competition simply being attributed in the comments in the file?
  366. # [14:20] <Philip`> hsivonen: Would it be sensible to emit a warning/comment that there is some filtered-namespace content and it isn't being validated and so the document may not be valid?
  367. # [14:22] <Philip`> Also, it's not clear that this doesn't affect the text/html parser if you try to filter the HTML namespace
  368. # [14:25] <Philip`> hsivonen: Why is http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fphilip.html5.org%2Ftests%2Fcanvas%2Fsuite%2Ftests%2Fresults.html (number of <col> != number of columns) an error?
  369. # [14:25] <annevk> for something that only needs a URI the UI of the validator is becoming increasingly complex
  370. # [14:26] <Philip`> annevk: Use http://html5.validator.nu/ if you want to avoid the complexity of XML :-)
  371. # [14:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: yeah, the length of "Namespace Filter" is a problem. I have to try out different options with that one
  372. # [14:28] <hsivonen> Philip`: presumably you'd put stuff in the filter field in order to suppress messages, so a warning wouldn't be very productive. Could be argued either way, though.
  373. # [14:29] <hsivonen> btw, there might be a bug with the automatic schema selection mechanism and the namespace filter. need to debug :-(
  374. # [14:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: the encoding override emits a warning... i'd expect namespace override to emit a warning as well
  375. # [14:29] <hsivonen> Philip`: I can't recall if the col thing is based on HTML 4, WHATWG list email from Hixie or my own judgment
  376. # [14:30] <zcorpan> otherwise it's easy to fool people that a document validates when they're not paying attention to the URL
  377. # [14:30] <hsivonen> annevk: http://html5.validator.nu/ has simple UI. for the generic case, people want to be able to do stuff while others want simplicity. UI design is hard.
  378. # [14:31] <Philip`> People could put "Valid XHTML5!" buttons on their web page, linking to the validator with nsfilter=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
  379. # [14:31] <hsivonen> annevk: in any case, you can paste a URI in the Document field and hit return and get sensible defaults
  380. # [14:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan, Philip`: ok, I'll add a warning
  381. # [14:32] <hsivonen> schema override doesn't warn though
  382. # [14:32] <hsivonen> by design
  383. # [14:32] <zcorpan> that's fine :)
  384. # [14:33] <hsivonen> annevk: not that on the HTML5 side, encoding override and ns filter are subtle :-)
  385. # [14:33] <hsivonen> s/not/note/
  386. # [14:34] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think I'll add JavaScript for dimming the ns filter field when an HTML parser option is chosen.
  387. # [14:34] <annevk> hmm, I'd think html5.validator.nu should be on validator.nu and what's now on validator.nu should be on advanced or complex.validator.nu
  388. # [14:34] <annevk> but nevermind
  389. # [14:35] <hsivonen> Philip`: I don't know how to communicate the applicability when the parser choice is in the auto state
  390. # [14:35] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, that has occurred to me
  391. # [14:35] <hsivonen> annevk: at least I should make links between them
  392. # [14:36] <annevk> in the end i'd want this validator to be on w3.org but that may be hard :)
  393. # [14:36] <Philip`> hsivonen: I'm not sure how much it matters since the only thing that would affect text/html is filtering http://blah/xhtml, and that's a silly thing to do
  394. # [14:36] <hsivonen> Philip`: actually, there's also the XML namespace
  395. # [14:37] <hsivonen> Philip`: since the implementation of lang is magic
  396. # [14:37] <Philip`> Ah
  397. # [14:37] <Philip`> Still doesn't sound like anyone would have a valid reason to filter namespaces from text/html, though
  398. # [14:38] <hsivonen> annevk: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-qa-dev/2007Dec/0000.html
  399. # [14:40] <hsivonen> food before software fixes...
  400. # [14:40] <annevk> ah cool, discussion seems to continue as well
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  405. # [15:04] <annevk> crap
  406. # [15:05] * annevk only saw the first four e-mails of the <canvas> security stuff
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  427. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> annevk (or anybody) - Can you find out when the first public release of Opera with XHR support was?
  428. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> If so, I would appreciate it.
  429. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> I guess it would have been a development/beta release of Opera 8
  430. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> early 2005 or late 2004
  431. # [16:03] <annevk> http://snapshot.opera.com/windows/w760p1.html
  432. # [16:04] <Philip`> MikeSmith: http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/04/opera-8 has relevant comments like "Opera 8 only supports enough of XMLHttpRequest to get gmail working correctly. They're only supporting it because of gmail."
  433. # [16:04] <annevk> (g opera xmlhttprequest changelog)
  434. # [16:06] <annevk> oh, I was still promoting xml:id back then
  435. # [16:07] <hsivonen> Opera 8 lacked quite a bit HTTP header manipulation stuff
  436. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> "2004-08: First public release of Opera with XHR support (v7.60 Technical Preview for Windows)"
  437. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> is probably good enough for me
  438. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> since elsewhere I already have:
  439. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> 2000-07: XMLHttpRequest support lands in Mozilla codebase
  440. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> (thanks to Gavin)
  441. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> http://bonsai.mozilla.org/cvslog.cgi?file=mozilla/configure.in&rev=1.692
  442. # [16:15] <gavin> "XMLHttpRequest support enabled by default in Mozilla codebase" might be more accurate
  443. # [16:15] <gavin> doesn't matter much to me, though :)
  444. # [16:16] <Philip`> When did IE get it?
  445. # [16:16] <Philip`> (or its equivalent)
  446. # [16:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: Trident V, IE7
  447. # [16:18] <Philip`> (where by "equivalent" I mean the XMLHTTP ActiveX thing)
  448. # [16:18] <Philip`> Oh, apparently IE 5.0
  449. # [16:19] <Philip`> which would be 1999-03
  450. # [16:25] <hsivonen> eventually this compound document stuff is going to lead to one huge Web schema and checking that the content type matches the root element
  451. # [16:25] <hsivonen> Atom+XHTML5+SVG1.1+MathML2+XBL2
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  457. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> gsnedders - thanks, I reworded now with your phrasing
  458. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> oops
  459. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> make that,
  460. # [17:03] <gsnedders> reworded what?
  461. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> gavin - thanks, I reworded now with your phrasing
  462. # [17:03] <gsnedders> ah. not me.
  463. # [17:03] <gsnedders> that makes more sense :)
  464. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> gsnedders - thanks to you also, for various unspecified stuff
  465. # [17:04] <gsnedders> :D
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  476. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> anybody remember when the first public draft of Web Apps 1.0 was posted?
  477. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> was there any announcement?
  478. # [18:04] <annevk> it's on hixie's site
  479. # [18:05] <zcorpan> WF2 came first...
  480. # [18:05] <annevk> http://www.hixie.ch/specs/html/apps/web-apps-1
  481. # [18:05] <annevk> oh yeah, started all with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2003Sep/att-0014/hfp.html
  482. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> annevk, zcorpan - thanks
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  484. # [18:08] <annevk> working on an essey on "recent" web history? :)
  485. # [18:10] <Philip`> I think he's planning to go back in time and stop all these events to prevent the future destruction of human civilisation
  486. # [18:10] <annevk> that sounds more realistic indeed
  487. # [18:11] <zcorpan> i think i read through an early version of WF2 in 2004, probably on hixie's site, before i knew what whatwg was
  488. # [18:12] <zcorpan> when i realised that it wasn't implemented anywhere i thought "why the heck am i reading this?" :)
  489. # [18:14] <zcorpan> i don't remember how or why i was reading it, i was probably trying to learn about xhtml and stumbled upon hixie's blog
  490. # [18:14] <Dashiva> A common feeling
  491. # [18:14] <gsnedders> zcorpan: half the specs I read aren't implemented anywhere, or uniformly differently from the spec.
  492. # [18:16] <Dashiva> Fortran 2003 will rock your world (not implemented)
  493. # [18:17] <Philip`> http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/Fortran2003 ?
  494. # [18:18] <Philip`> It doesn't appear to be not implemented...
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  534. # [20:52] <jwalden> Hixie: another bug -- in test 90, |assert((/(1)\0(2)/.test("1\02")), "NUL in regexp didn't match correctly")| should correctly fail because "1\02" is a two-character string where the \02 is an octal escape
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  541. # [21:16] <zcorpan> "character access by index "foo"[1] (part of the ECMAScript 4 spec)." -- http://ejohn.org/blog/acid3-tackles-ecmascript/ hmm, not in es3?
  542. # [21:17] <gavin> don't think so
  543. # [21:17] <zcorpan> then i would guess that acid3 can't test that...
  544. # [21:17] <gavin> although that example does work in a trunk firefox
  545. # [21:18] <zcorpan> yeah, it works everywhere except ie, iirc
  546. # [21:30] <Hixie> acid3 doesn't test that (anymore)
  547. # [21:30] <Hixie> jwalden: thanks, will fix
  548. # [21:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok
  549. # [21:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: have you thought about how to be able to run the test on opera mobile or iphone?
  550. # [21:36] <zcorpan> acid2 was no problem, but acid3 causes wrapping, i think
  551. # [21:37] <Hixie> Acid3 requires a browser with a width of 665 pixels minimum.
  552. # [21:38] <Hixie> in opera you'd have to switch to desktop mode
  553. # [21:38] <Hixie> i don't recall how wide iphone's viewport is
  554. # [21:59] <othermaciej> not 665 pixels
  555. # [21:59] <othermaciej> even in landscape
  556. # [22:00] <aroben> othermaciej: but the default viewport is 980px, I believe
  557. # [22:00] <aroben> *wide
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  559. # [22:00] <eseidel_> wb dbaron
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  561. # [22:01] <othermaciej> oh, the viewport
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  573. # [22:25] <eseidel> Hixie: see my comments on http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16797 when you get time
  574. # [22:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: in the reference rendering, opera wraps in the result div at the "/" because the parent has a width of 0
  575. # [22:26] <Hixie> zcorpan: fixed
  576. # [22:26] <zcorpan> Hixie: thanks
  577. # [22:26] <Hixie> eseidel: oops
  578. # [22:27] <eseidel> Hixie: the "cursor: none;" getting treated as "cursor: crosshair;l" is *awesome*
  579. # [22:28] <Hixie> eseidel: fixed; can't seem to reproduce the none/crosshair issue though
  580. # [22:28] <Hixie> afk biab
  581. # [22:28] <eseidel> Hixie: I think it might be a regression in TOT
  582. # [22:28] <Hixie> k
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  588. # [22:47] <zcorpan> "Junto a la definición de HTML 5 también se está haciendo lo mismo con XHTML 5 (Extensible HyperText Markup Language), que no es más que el mismo HTML pero cumpliendo con todas las características del XML y, por lo tanto, aún más estandarizado." -- http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-87178.html
  589. # [22:48] <zcorpan> oh... so once a vocabulary is serialized as xml, it becomes even more standardized. that's great, then :)
  590. # [22:49] <Philip`> ("Together with the definition of HTML 5 is also doing the same with XHTML 5 (Extensible HyperText Markup Language), which is not More than the same HTML but complying with all the features of XML and therefore even more standardized.")
  591. # [22:50] <annevk> fun
  592. # [22:50] <Dashiva> "More standardized". Nice
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  604. # [23:23] <zcorpan> hsivonen: why does validator.nu think that application/octet-stream is an xml mime type? (and non-html mime type)
  605. # [23:24] <zcorpan> (the net effect being that i can't validate extensionless html documents with file upload, even with the lax option set)
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  608. # [23:32] <zcorpan> filtering http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml makes xhtml documents invalid... which is probably a good thing :)
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  614. # [23:45] <zcorpan> hsivonen: v.nu doesn't warn about filtered attributes
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  616. # Session Close: Tue Jan 15 00:00:00 2008

The end :)