/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-01-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 15 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:18] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@87.102.16.84) ("ChatZilla 0.9.80-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
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  6. # [00:42] <Hixie> vote it up :-) http://programming.reddit.com/info/65fdm/comments
  7. # [00:43] <annevk> so the three votes are arve, you and me? :)
  8. # [00:44] <Hixie> i guess :-)
  9. # [00:45] * gavin doesn't have a reddit account
  10. # [00:47] <annevk> takes 10 seconds
  11. # [00:48] * kingryan is number 5 :)
  12. # [00:49] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@140.247.250.252)
  13. # [00:52] * Lachy registers a reddit account
  14. # [00:53] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  15. # [00:55] * Lachy is number 9
  16. # [00:56] <hober> I was 4 or 5 I think
  17. # [00:57] <Lachy> hober, you must have been 4, kingryan said he was 5
  18. # [01:00] <Philip`> I will attempt to win by waiting until I can get the largest number
  19. # [01:00] <Lachy> Reddit's UI is really horrible. Where do I find the links to the comment pages for other posts?
  20. # [01:01] <annevk> the links that say "comment"?
  21. # [01:01] * annevk thinks the UI is pretty obvious
  22. # [01:01] <Hixie> Philip`: you win by convincing other people to vote as well -- it's the count of how many people you can convince to vote for it
  23. # [01:02] <Hixie> Philip`: so far i think i'm up to about 5
  24. # [01:02] <Lachy> oh, it's just hidden with non-obvious links in the same colour as other text
  25. # [01:03] <Lachy> I prefer Digg, it's so much better organised
  26. # [01:03] <Hixie> Lachy: feel free to vote for that blog entry on digg too :-)
  27. # [01:03] <annevk> i once got on digg, wasn't pretty
  28. # [01:03] <gavin> I thought I was 5
  29. # [01:04] <annevk> i was one, hah
  30. # [01:04] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-208-116.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  31. # [01:05] * Lachy twitters the URL.
  32. # [01:08] <Lachy> Hixie, I think the contest needs a better prize
  33. # [01:08] <Hixie> like what?
  34. # [01:08] <Hixie> and yes, i agree
  35. # [01:09] <Lachy> hmm... well, a million dollars would be nice :-) But how about a JavaScript development book
  36. # [01:09] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  37. # [01:10] <Dashiva> How about a signed copy of the html5 spec (when it's done) :)
  38. # [01:10] <jruderman_> tour of google?
  39. # [01:10] <Hixie> Dashiva: i don't want to encourage people to consider my signature worth anything.
  40. # [01:11] <Dashiva> Not yours, the entire WG's
  41. # [01:11] <Hixie> lordy
  42. # [01:11] <Lachy> or alternatively, a voucher for an online store
  43. # [01:11] <Hixie> that would be scary
  44. # [01:11] <annevk> one of the five handwritten versions of the HTML5 :p
  45. # [01:11] * Hixie ponders on the issue
  46. # [01:11] <Dashiva> We need something to put in a museum to document it all
  47. # [01:11] <annevk> we will also sell one to amazon for a billion dollars to buy off patents
  48. # [01:11] <Hixie> my concern is that if there's a prize with monetary value it becomes a whole legal issue that i'm not competent to deal with
  49. # [01:12] <jruderman_> rumor has it that if the prize is worth less than $5000 you don't have to deal with too much crap
  50. # [01:12] * Hixie notices a google exercise ball has rolled into his cube and wonders where it came from
  51. # [01:12] <Hixie> jruderman_: oh?
  52. # [01:13] <Dashiva> I always imagined google would have other polygons than just simple cubes
  53. # [01:14] <Philip`> The number of sides of the polygon represents the status of the employee, and the people at the very top have rooms that are indistinguishable from circles
  54. # [01:14] <Hixie> i love that book
  55. # [01:14] <Lachy> Hixie, a signed copy of Bible5 ;-) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Jun/0008.html
  56. # [01:14] <Dashiva> Wasn't there going to be a movie?
  57. # [01:14] <Hixie> Lachy: :-P
  58. # [01:15] <Hixie> what's it called. flatworld? flatland?
  59. # [01:15] <Dashiva> Flatland, I think
  60. # [01:15] <Hixie> great book
  61. # [01:15] <Philip`> http://xahlee.org/flatland/index.html
  62. # [01:15] <Dashiva> I read it on gutenberg, worked surprisingly well
  63. # [01:15] <Hixie> oh the other problem with prizes is there are sixteen tests, and likely they'll be built from many more than 16 submissions :-P
  64. # [01:16] <Lachy> so how will the winner be decided?
  65. # [01:16] <Lachy> or were you intending to just say everyone who's test was included was a winner
  66. # [01:16] <Hixie> well currently everyone who ends up contributing a test that i use will be mentioned in the source
  67. # [01:17] <Hixie> but i could probably come up with some "best" test determination somehow
  68. # [01:17] * Lachy needs to write a test
  69. # [01:17] <Lachy> any known bugs that don't have tests in there yet?
  70. # [01:17] <Hixie> not good ones
  71. # [01:18] * Philip` wonders about the sibling-selector dynamic update bug he mentioned a while ago
  72. # [01:18] <Hixie> that's already tested at least twice, i believe
  73. # [01:19] <Philip`> Ah, good
  74. # [01:20] * Joins: jgraham (n=james@81-86-208-116.dsl.pipex.com)
  75. # [01:20] <Lachy> I came across a bug today in Firefox, but I don't think it qualifies due to the spec requirements (unless I can reproduce it without those parts)
  76. # [01:21] <jruderman_> Hixie: isn't the real prize that you can be almost certain that gecko and/or webkit developers will fix your bug? ;)
  77. # [01:23] <Lachy> at the very least, the winner should get a free upgrade of their favourite browser :-)
  78. # [01:23] <Dashiva> The winner gets to choose the code name for Firefox 4
  79. # [01:24] * Quits: grimboy (n=grimboy@78-105-162-250.zone3.bethere.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  80. # [01:24] <Hixie> jruderman_: that's what i figured, but apparently people want more!
  81. # [01:25] * kingryan is going to start a pool to take bets on which browser passes it first and when
  82. # [01:25] <Philip`> Dashiva: There's http://www.flatlandthemovie.com/ and http://www.flatlandthefilm.com/ (I'd only heard of the second one before now)
  83. # [01:25] * Lachy votes Opera
  84. # [01:26] * Philip` votes Konqueror
  85. # [01:26] <Dashiva> Probably same as for acid2 :)
  86. # [01:26] <Lachy> (I wonder if I'm inelible for this pool, since I work for Opera?)
  87. # [01:26] <kingryan> Lachy, Philip`: yeah, but how long will it take? :)
  88. # [01:26] <Lachy> *ineligible
  89. # [01:27] <Dashiva> Opera passes acid3 in May 2009
  90. # [01:28] <Philip`> kingryan: 2008-08-27T16Z
  91. # [01:28] <Philip`> (for development builds)
  92. # [01:29] <Dashiva> Pssh, those don't count. If you can't do it without breaking the web, it's cheating :)
  93. # [01:29] <Lachy> My guess is the next major version of Opera that ships after 9.5 (currently in beta)
  94. # [01:30] <kingryan> of course, we don't know when the test itself will be done yet
  95. # [01:30] <kingryan> nor what specifically it will test
  96. # [01:30] <Lachy> we know about 84% if the tests
  97. # [01:30] <Lachy> s/if/of/
  98. # [01:31] <Philip`> Dashiva: Okay, then I'll say 2008-12-09T11Z for a released build
  99. # [01:31] <Philip`> Oops, I got confused by timezones, I meant 2008-12-09T12Z
  100. # [01:33] * Joins: jwalden_ (n=waldo@STRATTON-ONE-FORTY-TWO.MIT.EDU)
  101. # [01:33] <Lachy> Philip`, guesses should be down to millisecond precision :-)
  102. # [01:35] <Philip`> Lachy: That would be too hard to judge - there might be two people guessing correctly to the nearest second, but the internet latencies and FTP timestamp imprecisions would make it too hard to tell them apart
  103. # [01:35] <kingryan> second precision is probably enough :)
  104. # [01:37] <jgraham> Hmm. I guess webkit passes first, but neither Webkit nor Gecko are at the right point in their release cycle to ship soon...
  105. # [01:37] <Philip`> Could you give me a couple of weeks before I settle on the minute and second portions of my predictions?
  106. # [01:37] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  107. # [01:37] <jgraham> Maybe IE8 will astound everyone :)
  108. # [01:38] <Lachy> if the time is for the final release build that passes the test, then all votes need to be in before any preview releases are available
  109. # [01:38] <Philip`> Lachy: Can you give that vote deadline in seconds please?
  110. # [01:39] <Hixie> how do you define "preview releases"?
  111. # [01:40] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-THREE-O-EIGHT.MIT.EDU) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  112. # [01:40] <Lachy> any publicly available build that passes the test
  113. # [01:40] <Philip`> jgraham: It'd be interesting to know how many fixes Firefox 3.1 might include
  114. # [01:40] <Lachy> including nightlies
  115. # [01:40] <Hixie> Philip`: so... it looks like safari and firefox aren't changing their path construction to ignore the CTM as per spec
  116. # [01:40] <Hixie> Philip`: so i guess i'll have to change the spec
  117. # [01:40] <Hixie> Philip`: any advice on this matter?
  118. # [01:42] <jgraham> Philip`: Are the Mozilla folks planning to release 3.x versions?
  119. # [01:43] <annevk> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22firefox+3.1%22
  120. # [01:44] <Philip`> Hixie: Seems sensible - I'd expect the most complex bit would be describing how strokes are transformed (I think Firefox and Safari do it the same, which is helpful), and maybe issues with pattern fill transforms, and I'm not sure what else
  121. # [01:45] <Hixie> can you elaborate on those?
  122. # [01:46] <gavin> jgraham: what do you mean?
  123. # [01:46] <gavin> 3.0.x security releases are planned
  124. # [01:46] <Lachy> Hixie, you got a response on reddit.
  125. # [01:46] <Philip`> jgraham: I'd hope so, because Moz2 (presumably for FF4) sounds like a potentially risky step and it'd be nice to get some intermediate improvements :-)
  126. # [01:46] <gavin> but there are no plans for "major minor" releases, as in 3.1
  127. # [01:47] <jgraham> gavin: Yeah, that's what I had thought
  128. # [01:47] <gavin> the release after 3 is most likely to be 4, in my opinion
  129. # [01:47] <gavin> subject to change, IANAL, etc, etc ;)
  130. # [01:48] <jgraham> gavin: which means, to return to the original context, that a released gecko won't pass acid 3 for several years
  131. # [01:48] <gavin> several years?
  132. # [01:49] <jgraham> since mozilla 2 is unlikely to be quick :)
  133. # [01:49] <gavin> I don't think anyone really knows when the next gecko release will be
  134. # [01:49] <gavin> it might be 1.9.1
  135. # [01:50] <Philip`> Hixie: The CTM's scale/rotation is applied to the stroke lines when stroke() is called, so e.g. rect(...); scale(n, n); stroke(); makes the lines n times wider
  136. # [01:51] <Philip`> Hixie: and http://tinyurl.com/2bfvog has a more interesting interaction of stroke and rotation/scale
  137. # [01:52] <Philip`> (Translations have no effect)
  138. # [01:52] <jgraham> gavin: Well FF2 shipped in october 2006 which is, I guess, roughly an 18 month release cycle for FF2-3. Wildly extrapolating into the future, I conclude that "several years" was probably a slight overstatement but "not soon" is probably accurate
  139. # [01:53] * jwalden_ is now known as jwalden
  140. # [01:53] <Hixie> Philip`: o_O
  141. # [01:53] <gavin> a 1.9.1-based release could be pretty soon
  142. # [01:53] <gavin> more of a FF1.5-FF2 timeframe
  143. # [01:54] <Hixie> Philip`: well that's just fucking _weird_
  144. # [01:54] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=jgraham@81-86-209-97.dsl.pipex.com)
  145. # [01:55] <Philip`> (Hmm, I think I didn't actually test that Safari acts the same as Firefox in those cases)
  146. # [01:56] <Philip`> Hixie: Maybe ask e.g. Cairo developers if there's a relatively straightforward explanation of how their strokes are rendered?
  147. # [01:56] <Philip`> or leave it as implementation-defined behaviour :-)
  148. # [01:57] <Philip`> or at least don't worry much about it now since it's not as important as just applying the CTM to points at the right times
  149. # [01:58] <fredrikh> Hixie: speaking of paths, the arcTo specification in HTML5 seems to disagree with postscript and CG on one point
  150. # [01:58] <Hixie> fredrikh: send mail :-)
  151. # [01:59] <Philip`> fredrikh: Maybe see http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-July/012117.html first in case that mentions it already :-)
  152. # [01:59] <fredrikh> Philip`: yeah, that's what i'm talking about :)
  153. # [02:03] <Philip`> Hixie: About pattern fills, I have no idea how it's implemented already, but I guess it'd do something like use the current CTM at the time where fill() is called (so fillStyle=createPattern(...); rect(...); scale(n, n); fill(); would let you scale the pattern without affecting the path) or something
  154. # [02:03] <Philip`> I should probably try testing that some day (not today) to see what happens...
  155. # [02:04] <kig> Philip`: that works in firefox and safari
  156. # [02:04] <Hixie> Philip`: k
  157. # [02:04] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  158. # [02:04] <Philip`> kig: The pattern thing?
  159. # [02:04] * Hixie mumbles something about all this being way over his head
  160. # [02:04] <kig> but it's a hack because transforms change the stroke
  161. # [02:05] <Philip`> kig: Ah, okay, thanks
  162. # [02:09] <kig> (how i'm doing it in the SVG renderer is: setup path transform, create path, setup fill pattern transform, fill, setup stroke pattern transform, tweak ctx.lineWidth, stroke)
  163. # [02:09] <Philip`> Hixie: Anything I can help with (preferably not something very complex since I only barely know enough to pretend to know more than I really do)? :-)
  164. # [02:09] <Philip`> kig: Does that break when there's a non-uniform scale?
  165. # [02:09] <kig> yes
  166. # [02:10] <Philip`> Okay
  167. # [02:10] <Philip`> kig: Do you have ideas for redesigning the canvas API in a backward-compatible way so that it actually makes sense? ;-)
  168. # [02:11] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-208-116.dsl.pipex.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  169. # [02:11] * Quits: jgraham__ (n=jgraham@81-86-208-116.dsl.pipex.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  171. # [02:11] <Hixie> Philip`: review the new text when i'm done, i guess :-)
  172. # [02:13] <kig> Philip`: have a transformation matrix for gradient/pattern objects
  173. # [02:14] <kig> that's applied after determining which pixels to draw on, but before the actual drawing
  174. # [02:16] <kig> var g = createLinearGradient(...); g.setTransform(1,0,0,1,0,0); g.rotate(0.5); g.translate(20,50); g.scale(0.4, 2.6); g.transform(1,0.9, -0.9,1, 0, 0);
  175. # [02:16] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  176. # [02:18] <Philip`> g.save(); g.restore() or is that not needed?
  177. # [02:19] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.209)
  178. # [02:21] <kig> i don't really need those..
  179. # [02:23] <Philip`> This doesn't seem useful for linear gradients because you can just manually apply the transform to the two end points
  180. # [02:23] <kig> radial gradients on the other hand
  181. # [02:24] <Philip`> Radial gradients with non-uniform scaling?
  182. # [02:24] <Philip`> (I can't think of any other cases where it'd matter)
  183. # [02:25] <kig> and if you don't have it for linear gradients, you need a fork in the fill/stroke-path to create a new linear gradient based on the old one whenever you need to transform it..
  184. # [02:26] * Joins: csarven- (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  185. # [02:27] <kig> the "not really possible currently" thing is stroking with a pattern/gradient that has non-uniform scale
  186. # [02:28] <kig> and/or shear
  187. # [02:30] <kig> fwiw, cairo already has cairo_pattern_set_matrix
  188. # [02:31] * Philip` wonders if Quartz(?) has something similar
  189. # [02:31] * Philip` wonders if Opera's thing has a name at all
  190. # [02:32] <kig> quartz has pattern matrix, specified at pattern creation time(?)
  191. # [02:33] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  192. # [02:33] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.209)
  193. # [02:35] <fredrikh> Philip`: QBrush, if it uses Qt in its canvas implementation
  194. # [02:36] <fredrikh> and it supports that as well
  195. # [02:38] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) ("Leaving")
  196. # [02:40] <fredrikh> (opera, that is)
  197. # [03:07] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("Leaving")
  198. # [03:07] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
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  201. # [03:22] <jwalden> Hixie: any chance you could change tests 31 and 32 to handle error reporting the usual way instead of giving no error messages if the test fails?
  202. # [03:24] <Hixie> done
  203. # [03:24] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-1a0f4181ef11eb8e)
  204. # [03:26] <Hixie> it's very sad, i haven't even received a single usable suggestion yet for acid3
  205. # [03:26] <jwalden> you, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar
  206. # [03:27] <jwalden> I could write up <http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16690> into a test, although pedantically speaking that's probably better as part of the test HTML
  207. # [03:29] <Hixie> you couldn't write it into a single JS function
  208. # [03:29] <jwalden> I could, I'd just have to modify the acid3 DOM
  209. # [03:30] <jwalden> Hixie: 32, |captureCount| is undefined
  210. # [03:30] <Hixie> fixed
  211. # [03:31] <Hixie> jwalden: you couldn't write it into a single JS function without something else as well, such as changing the markup before the test runs
  212. # [03:31] <Hixie> jwalden: but i'd rather not do anything that can't be done from a single JS function
  213. # [03:31] <jwalden> yeah
  214. # [03:31] <jwalden> oh, true
  215. # [03:31] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/acid/003/competition/
  216. # [03:32] <Hixie> Philip`: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/index-diff is the diff of the changes for the path stuff
  217. # [03:32] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/index-diff#the-2d
  218. # [03:33] * Philip` will look tomorrow since he has to sleep now
  219. # [03:33] <Hixie> k
  220. # [03:33] <Hixie> nn
  221. # [03:34] <Lachy> Hixie, where will the final test be hosted and publicised? on WaSP again?
  222. # [03:34] <Hixie> that's still being figured out, but yeah, basically
  223. # [03:38] <Lachy> ok. I gotta go to bed and hope I don't sleep in tomorrow morning (I've set 2 alarms).
  224. # [03:38] <Lachy> I can't be late for work again. cya
  225. # [03:38] <Hixie> heh
  226. # [03:38] <Hixie> nn
  227. # [03:38] <jruderman_> any good acid3 competition submissions so far?
  228. # [03:38] <Hixie> jruderman_: none
  229. # [03:39] <jruderman_> oh, you said that 13 minutes ago
  230. # [03:39] <Lachy> Hixie, I will try to get one in by the end of the week
  231. # [03:39] <Hixie> Lachy: you might have to try for 16 :-)
  232. # [03:39] <Hixie> jruderman_: it's very sad
  233. # [03:39] <Lachy> if you could send me a list of bugs, that would help :-)
  234. # [03:40] <Lachy> ok, really gotta go. cya
  235. # [03:40] <Hixie> i really have no known bugs
  236. # [03:40] <Hixie> if i did, i'd have written tests already
  237. # [03:42] <Philip`> Lachy: Only two alarms? I've got four set now...
  238. # [03:42] * Hixie is glad he doesn't have to use alarms
  239. # [03:42] <Hixie> though i occasionally set an alarm for 5pm so i make sure to get to work before dinner
  240. # [03:43] <jwalden> heh
  241. # [03:43] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@guest-229.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  242. # [03:46] <jruderman_> do either of these look interesting? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2212 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2056
  243. # [03:48] <jruderman_> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3655
  244. # [03:48] <jruderman_> are css 3 selectors fair game?
  245. # [03:48] <Hixie> if you can find a way to test them from JS in a way you can reproduce in http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/acid/003/competition/ then please send them to ian@hixie.ch
  246. # [03:48] <Hixie> i have to go now
  247. # [03:48] <Hixie> (and yes, anything that matches those rules are fair game. selectors are widely tested in Acid3 already in fact.)
  248. # [03:48] <Hixie> gotta go now
  249. # [03:48] <Hixie> nn
  250. # [03:49] <jruderman_> k
  251. # [04:01] <jwalden> dangit dangit dangit
  252. # [04:02] <jwalden> okay
  253. # [04:02] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  254. # [04:02] <jwalden> test 31 is buggy
  255. # [04:03] <jwalden> the input it inserts into the page has no type attribute
  256. # [04:03] <jwalden> HTML4 says the default is text
  257. # [04:04] <jwalden> and <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/html.html#ID-6043025> clearly says that .click() isn't supported for inputs of type text
  258. # [04:04] <jwalden> Hixie: ^ when you get back
  259. # [04:04] <jwalden> if you get back tonight, that is
  260. # [04:08] <jwalden> hey, that exposes a webkit bug!
  261. # [04:09] * Joins: fantasai (i=fantasai@66.252.19.122)
  262. # [04:09] <jwalden> seems click() isn't a noop on at least inputs with type="text"
  263. # [04:10] <fantasai> Does anyone know if "The DOM attributes height and width must return the rendered height and width of the image, in CSS pixels" is implemented?
  264. # [04:11] <jwalden> fantasai: <http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/content/html/content/src/nsHTMLImageElement.cpp#275> says Gecko does
  265. # [04:12] <fantasai> jwalden: does it get modified by CSS?
  266. # [04:12] <fantasai> e.g. if I set "width: 100px" on a 200px-wide image, does width return 100px or 200px?
  267. # [04:14] <jwalden> I'm guessing from reading nsFrame::GetContentRect that it probably does, but it's probably faster to write a testcase
  268. # [04:14] <jwalden> than to read the code
  269. # [04:17] <fantasai> k. If the spec doesn't say anything about a DOM attribute reflecting the content attribute, does that mean they are independent?
  270. # [04:18] <jwalden> no idea
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  281. # [05:02] <fantasai> /w/window 4
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  283. # [05:20] <jruderman_> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=254144 might be a good test for acid3
  284. # [05:21] <jruderman_> if it's justifiable using specs, which maybe it isn't
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  320. # [08:48] <Hixie> jwalden: i think the spec could be read either way, but i've made it type=reset to avoid ambiguity
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  329. # [09:57] <Philip`> Hixie: About the canvas shadow thing: see http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-June/011799.html :-)
  330. # [09:58] * Joins: webben (n=benh@general-kt-195.t-mobile.co.uk)
  331. # [10:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the ns filtering warning is now triggered by attribute filtering, too
  332. # [10:04] <hsivonen> (it is a one-time warning)
  333. # [10:04] <Lachy> dammit. Slept in again cause my backup alarm was still set to Australian time :-( But not quite late for work though.
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  342. # [10:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I fixed the HTML octet-stream thing. You have to force one of the HTML parsing modes, though, since XML is more likely to have a bogus type than HTML
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  346. # [10:50] <annevk> Philip`, so not all transformations affect the current path?
  347. # [10:50] * annevk didn't know that was the case
  348. # [10:52] <hsivonen> IIRC, Gecko has (had?) some stroke transformation weirdness with SVG. was that a Cairo thing or an SVG thing?
  349. # [10:55] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  350. # [10:57] <Philip`> annevk: Not entirely sure what you mean
  351. # [10:58] <hsivonen> is there a way to detect when a page is being redisplayed due to the user pressing Back?
  352. # [10:58] <hsivonen> in JS that is?
  353. # [10:59] <hsivonen> The v.nu UI script modifies the form onsubmit. when the user presses Back in Firefox, the form is unusable
  354. # [10:59] <annevk> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080115#l-137
  355. # [11:00] <Philip`> annevk: Oh - translations just don't affect the stroke shape of a path
  356. # [11:00] <Philip`> (The path itself still gets translated)
  357. # [11:01] <Philip`> (but then the stroke goes over that path, with just the stroke width (and some skewiness) affected by the CTM)
  358. # [11:01] <OmegaJunior> hsivonen: I wouldn't know
  359. # [11:01] <OmegaJunior> I can imagine comparing a timestamp in the page with a timestamp in javascript
  360. # [11:02] <OmegaJunior> but that has issues with caching proxies etc.
  361. # [11:04] <hsivonen> hmm. Is the form submission data built before or after the unload event?
  362. # [11:04] <OmegaJunior> Before
  363. # [11:05] <hsivonen> excellent
  364. # [11:05] <hsivonen> then I can modify the form onsubmit and modify it back onunload
  365. # [11:05] <OmegaJunior> Yes, or just modify it onunload, to prevent a second submit
  366. # [11:06] <hsivonen> I want to *allow* Back button plus second submit
  367. # [11:06] <hsivonen> that's the problem
  368. # [11:06] <OmegaJunior> Ah
  369. # [11:07] <hsivonen> I just want to make the GET URI parameters pretty by disabling fields that have an empty value
  370. # [11:07] <OmegaJunior> With some ajaxed handling you may find a lack of onunload.
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  372. # [11:21] <annevk> hmm http://www.dreamhoststatus.com/2008/01/15/billing-issues/
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  378. # [12:46] <mpt> hsivonen, ah, shades of the "Bugzilla query.cgi URLs should be shortened" bug
  379. # [12:46] <mpt> Why not eat the unused parameters on the server and redirect?
  380. # [12:48] <hsivonen> mpt: because that would break the simplicity of request-response
  381. # [12:48] <hsivonen> mpt: I think I have it covered in JS now. (tested Firefox 2, Safari 3 and Opera 9.5 beta)
  382. # [12:50] <Lachy> Firefox seems to have a bug with moving elements between documents. I'll have to investigate that more thoroughly later and write a test case for acid3 if I can
  383. # [12:50] <othermaciej> hsivonen: Firefox has a (nonstandard) event when loading something from the back/forward cache, but on a back that doesn't get the special b/f cache treatment you get a load event instead (makes it kinda hard to use)
  384. # [12:51] <othermaciej> Lachy: moving elements between documents is not allowed, per official DOM specs
  385. # [12:51] <Lachy> really? Opera allows it
  386. # [12:51] <othermaciej> (WebKit supports it anyway due to compat requirements to emulate Mozilla)
  387. # [12:51] <othermaciej> (probably Opera for the same reason)
  388. # [12:52] <othermaciej> this and getAttribute("nonexistent") returning null instead of "" are our only two DOM 1 Core violations that I am aware of (both intentional for compat with teh Fox)
  389. # [12:52] <hsivonen> othermaciej: ok. thanks. I already addressed the issue using onunload, and the same codepath works for Gecko/WebKit/Opera.
  390. # [12:52] <hsivonen> othermaciej: do you happen to remember the name of the event?
  391. # [12:52] <othermaciej> I was going to suggest onunload
  392. # [12:52] <othermaciej> I don't remember
  393. # [12:53] <hsivonen> othermaciej: ok
  394. # [12:53] <othermaciej> using it would not work in Safari or Opera anyway
  395. # [12:53] <Lachy> Then, when using XHR to retrieve an XML document, obtaining the DOM from responseXML (which returns a Document), how is one supposed to move those elements into the DOM of the main document?
  396. # [12:53] <annevk> using importNode()
  397. # [12:53] <othermaciej> adoptNode() or something like that
  398. # [12:53] <othermaciej> it's a lame restriction
  399. # [12:54] <Lachy> ok.
  400. # [12:54] <hsivonen> also, making each node know their owner document seems an inefficient idea
  401. # [12:54] <Lachy> annevk, you should consider adding an example of that to the XHR spec.
  402. # [12:54] <annevk> feel free to write one
  403. # [12:54] <Lachy> ok, will do later
  404. # [12:55] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I think there's reasons beyond that which require every node to know their owner document
  405. # [12:55] <othermaciej> (even ones not currently in a document)
  406. # [12:55] <othermaciej> the DOM is not really designed for efficiency
  407. # [12:55] <annevk> so Firefox does it arguably we could test for it in Acid3
  408. # [12:55] <othermaciej> otherwise it wouldn't expose child nodes as both a linked list *and* an array
  409. # [12:56] <hsivonen> I think in a Java environment it can even happen in practice that different trees are backed by different DOM impls.
  410. # [12:56] <annevk> the DOM also has all kinds of quirks such as CDATASection and EntityReference
  411. # [12:56] <othermaciej> (which results in a set of operations that can't possibly all be efficient)
  412. # [12:57] <othermaciej> (I think it may have even been proven with information theory that you can't make append, prepend, insert, remove, next, previous, and get nth all O(1) )
  413. # [12:57] <hsivonen> I think it would be good to guarantee certain efficiency properties for central operations
  414. # [12:58] <hsivonen> like iterating over a children with increasing index
  415. # [12:58] <Lachy> hmm. importNode isn't tested in acid3. maybe I should look for bugs with that - its spec looks quite complicated
  416. # [12:58] <othermaciej> Safari and Mozilla have fundamentally different performance profiles
  417. # [12:58] <hsivonen> or document order traversal using firstChild/nextSibling
  418. # [12:58] <othermaciej> WebKit has a linked list internally so previousSibling/nextSibling are very fast and childNodes relies on a cache
  419. # [12:58] <othermaciej> Mozilla has an array internally so childNodes is fast and previousSibling/nextSibling rely on a cache
  420. # [12:59] <othermaciej> (though I think in many common cases WebKit's indexed access ends up being faster than Mozilla's anyway)
  421. # [12:59] * Lachy wonders if it's possible to have a combined array/linked list data structure to get the best of both worlds
  422. # [12:59] <othermaciej> Lachy: not really
  423. # [13:00] <othermaciej> it might be possible to design a data structure where none of the operations I listed are worse than O(log N), but even that is very hard
  424. # [13:00] <hsivonen> exposing the index to app code seems ugly anyway (like charAt()). I think firstChild/nextSibling traversal looks better that way
  425. # [13:00] <othermaciej> using one or the other with a cache seems to be the best you can do
  426. # [13:00] <Lachy> it would make inserting into the array a pain, since you'd have to update the array indexes as well as the pointers from the previous and next objects
  427. # [13:00] <othermaciej> firstChild/nextSibling is easier to extend to a full preorder tree traversal
  428. # [13:01] <othermaciej> (internally in webkit we have a Node::traverseNextNode() method that gives you the next node in document order
  429. # [13:01] <othermaciej> it might be handy as a public API for JS someday
  430. # [13:01] <othermaciej> certainly easier to use than nonsense like TreeWalker
  431. # [13:01] <hsivonen> othermaciej: how does it distinguish between initial visit and revisit of a parent?
  432. # [13:02] <othermaciej> hsivonen: in preorder traversal you never revisit a parent
  433. # [13:02] <othermaciej> (document order == preorder)
  434. # [13:02] <othermaciej> or rather, whenever you run out of next siblings, you go up until you find an ancestor that has a next sibling and go there
  435. # [13:02] <hsivonen> othermaciej: depends on use case. when serializing, you definitely want the preorder travelsal to revisit
  436. # [13:04] <othermaciej> that can't be done with an equally simple API afaik
  437. # [13:04] <othermaciej> though a callback-driven API could do it with no more than one node's worth of internal state
  438. # [13:04] <zcorpan> JS has innerHTML for serializing... :)
  439. # [13:04] <othermaciej> (possibly an extra outermost container node, which our traverseNextNode handles)
  440. # [13:07] <othermaciej> but yeah, in a tree structure with parent pointers you can do just about any traversal of interest without either recursion or an explicit stack
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  445. # [14:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: here's an idea for a test: have element in the DOM with an id attribute, replace the element with a different one with the same id attribute value, try to getElementById and see if you get the new element back (without spinning in the event loop in between)
  446. # [14:44] <hsivonen> my hypothesis is that the getElementById hash is inconsistent until event loop spin
  447. # [14:44] * gavin would be surprised if that was the case in gecko
  448. # [14:45] <hsivonen> gavin: oh. then I'm seeing some other weirdness in my attempts to polish the Validator.nu UI
  449. # [14:46] <hsivonen> hmm. scratch that.
  450. # [14:47] <hsivonen> I'm seeing weirdness but I misdiagnosed it
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  458. # [15:50] <mpt> hsivonen, the tooltip for "Encoding" refers to "the schema field above", but it's below
  459. # [15:51] <mpt> Also, I think you could get away with s/The * field //g
  460. # [15:52] <mpt> (capitalizing the next word in each tooltip as appropriate)
  461. # [15:52] <mpt> "Don't override" might be clearer as "As specified by the document" or similar
  462. # [15:53] <hsivonen> mpt: it's the wrong tooltip. I thought I had already pushed out a fix. (already fixed locally)
  463. # [15:53] <hsivonen> mpt: I'll make wording changes for the next iteration. thank you
  464. # [15:53] <hsivonen> afk
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  466. # [15:54] <mpt> Yay for supporting https: URLs :-)
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  518. # [19:12] <gsnedders> the py html5lib just calls the filters with, "treewalker = Filter(treewalker)". How does calling __init__ call __iter__?
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  536. # [20:31] <jgraham_> gsnedders: I'm not quite sure what your question is, but __iter__ is automatically called when looping over an object
  537. # [20:32] <jgraham_> See http://docs.python.org/lib/typeiter.html for full details
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  548. # [21:14] <gsnedders> jgraham_: but when does the looping happen? looking at the serialiser, all it calls is Filter(treewalker), and __init__ doesn't do any looping…
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  550. # [21:22] <Lachy> gsnedders, your last email to www-archive wasn't clear whether your comments were aimed at James or Dean
  551. # [21:23] <gsnedders> Lachy: oops. just follow the "to"
  552. # [21:23] <Lachy> from what you wrote, I assume it was supposed to be aimed at Dean, despite directly responding to James
  553. # [21:24] <Lachy> yeah, I looked at that after I started reading and wondered why you were saying all those things to James
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  556. # [21:26] <Lachy> It's strange how external floppy drives and CD drives were common in the early days, then they were integrated into computers for convenience, and now the MacBook Air is shipping only with an optional external drive.
  557. # [21:27] <Lachy> I guess Apple's Time Machine must work too well :-)
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  565. # [22:08] <Lachy> Maybe we could distinguish between the language and the serialisation by calling them HTML (for the language) and HTMS (Hypertext Markup Serialisation)
  566. # [22:08] <Lachy> or Hypertext Markup Syntax
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  568. # [22:23] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Look at filters/_base.py __init__ doesn't call __iter__ (that would be odd); it just adds a .source attribute to the filter pointing to the treewalker Then __iter__ returns an iterator over .source. Subclasses then alter the tokens produced by this iterator
  569. # [22:23] <jgraham_> (see e.g. filter/whitespace.py)
  570. # [22:23] <gsnedders> quite when is __iter__ controller?
  571. # [22:24] <gsnedders> what the ehll did I just type?
  572. # [22:24] <gsnedders> *hell
  573. # [22:24] <gsnedders> quite when is __iter__ called?
  574. # [22:24] <gsnedders> that makes more sense.
  575. # [22:24] <jgraham_> When you do something like "for x in y:" you call y.__iter__
  576. # [22:25] <jgraham_> which has to return an object with a .next() method
  577. # [22:25] <jgraham_> In the html serializer it happens on line 103
  578. # [22:25] <jgraham_> for token in treewalker:
  579. # [22:26] <gsnedders> jgraham_: ah, so it just applies all the filters then?
  580. # [22:27] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.110.3)
  581. # [22:27] * gsnedders is finally making sense of this
  582. # [22:27] <jgraham_> Indeed. It's just a way of chaining things together
  583. # [22:28] <gsnedders> It finally makes sense!
  584. # [22:28] <gsnedders> thanks
  585. # [22:29] <gsnedders> jgraham_: actually, where is next() defined?
  586. # [22:30] <jgraham_> gsnedders: If you use yield it automatically does the right thing wrt .next()
  587. # [22:30] <gsnedders> ah
  588. # [22:34] * gsnedders wonders whether to write his own RSS Profile
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  590. # [22:48] <Lachy> gsnedders, why would you want to use RSS for anything, even if you wrote your own profile? Atom is better
  591. # [22:49] <gsnedders> Lachy: oh, I wouldn't. But as I can tell you, and anyone else who's read the spec can tell you, the spec is useless for implementing it from either a UA POV or an authoring POV.
  592. # [22:49] <Lachy> oh, so you want to write RSS5
  593. # [22:50] <gsnedders> basically.
  594. # [22:50] <gsnedders> Probably ought to call it that.
  595. # [22:50] <Lachy> yeah, I'd wait for XML5 first, though.
  596. # [22:51] <Lachy> or you could spec the vocabulary and the processing requirements, leave parsing requirements for later
  597. # [22:51] <gsnedders> even <http://www.rssboard.org/rss-profile> is too vague, and I disagree with some of the advice (despite being listed as one of the four contributors)
  598. # [22:52] <gsnedders> Lachy: peh, I'd just help with XML5 (though annevk advised me to revise for my exams, which start tomorrow)
  599. # [22:52] <gsnedders> Lachy: I could also do the HTML 5 solution so XML 1.0 or any later version
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  601. # [22:52] <Lachy> RSS5 should handle all 10 versions of RSS from 0.90 to 2.0
  602. # [22:53] <Lachy> note that they're all incompatible with each other too :-)
  603. # [22:53] <gsnedders> Lachy: the RDF and non-RDF ones need to be handled differently though
  604. # [22:53] <gsnedders> Lachy: (on top of the other incompatibilities)
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  606. # [22:54] <Lachy> so, the important question is, what would RSS5 stand for? Rich Site Summary, RDF Site Summary or Really Simple Syndication?
  607. # [22:54] <gsnedders> Really Stupid Syndication
  608. # [22:54] <Lachy> LOL
  609. # [22:55] <Dashiva> Rather Silly Stuff
  610. # [22:55] <Dashiva> RSS5 is already known as Atom :P
  611. # [22:55] <Lachy> authoring conformance requirements would be easy, though.
  612. # [22:55] <gsnedders> (the sad thing is, I'm actually serious about that)
  613. # [22:55] <gsnedders> Lachy: author the subset of all RSS versions
  614. # [22:55] <Lachy> "Authors must not use this languague"
  615. # [22:55] <Dashiva> Lachy: Try writing a feed parser and you'll join the "RSS is evil and needs to be destroyed" club soon enough
  616. # [22:56] <Lachy> Dashiva, I'm already in the club
  617. # [22:56] <gsnedders> Lachy: the two are entirely equivalent, AFAIK
  618. # [22:57] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.110.3)
  619. # [22:57] <Dashiva> The largest common subset would probably end up being the <title> tag
  620. # [22:57] <gsnedders> I'm actually about to step-down from lead developer of SimplePie
  621. # [22:57] <gsnedders> Dashiva: no, it's content model and whether you have to sniff it depends on the version
  622. # [22:57] <Lachy> "Authors must produce RSS documents that conform to the requirements specified in The Atom Syndication Format. [RFC4287]"
  623. # [22:57] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Sure, but the tag itself is mandatory :)
  624. # [22:58] <gsnedders> Dashiva: and whether it is in a namespace (for RSS 0.90 or RSS 1.0)
  625. # [22:58] <Dashiva> Lachy: I love it
  626. # [22:58] <gsnedders> Lachy: Hmm, I wouldn't put that, probably only should (but must not conform to any version of RSS)
  627. # [22:59] <Lachy> unfortunately, future specifications can't retroactively change the conformace of documents with respect to the older specifications. So people will still be able to claim conformance
  628. # [22:59] <Dashiva> User agent conformance: Must pretend to handle it
  629. # [23:00] <gsnedders> "Authors MUST NOT use this language. The editor RECOMMENDS usage of The Atom Syndication Format. [RFC4287]"
  630. # [23:00] <gsnedders> (in RFC2119 document)
  631. # [23:00] <Dashiva> I didn't know recommends was a special word. Interesting.
  632. # [23:01] <gsnedders> alias for SHOULD
  633. # [23:02] <Dashiva> So, what does RSS5 say about hamburger vs pasta for dinner?
  634. # [23:03] * Joins: markp (n=mark@adsl-221-79-53.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  635. # [23:03] <gsnedders> Pasta.
  636. # [23:03] * Lachy made hamburgers
  637. # [23:03] <Lachy> ... real Aussie hamburgers (in Norway)
  638. # [23:03] <gsnedders> markp: I sent you an email a day of two about the remote base atom autodiscovery test-suite tests being broken, FYI
  639. # [23:04] <gsnedders> (seeming your always months behind emails, and it's nice to have test suites that work :))
  640. # [23:05] <Lachy> Dashiva, the choice between burgers and pasta really depends on what you have to put on the burger
  641. # [23:05] <Dashiva> I have all the required condiments
  642. # [23:05] <gsnedders> "The editor RECOMMENDS eating pasta while implementing this specification. Lachlan Hunt RECOMMENDS eating hamburgers while implementing this specification."
  643. # [23:06] <Lachy> so long as there's beef, lettuce, tomato, onion, egg, pineapple and, most importantly, beetroot, you're set.
  644. # [23:06] <Dashiva> ... using pineapple on burgers is a criminal offense in many places
  645. # [23:07] <Lachy> pineapple is one of the 2 essential ingredients
  646. # [23:07] <Lachy> well, 3, cause I forgot to count beef.
  647. # [23:07] <Dashiva> And the buns?
  648. # [23:07] <Lachy> sure
  649. # [23:08] <Lachy> in fact, the only optional ingredients are egg and onion
  650. # [23:09] <Lachy> (I'm surprised you haven't objected to the beetroot yet. Most non-Aussies do)
  651. # [23:09] <gsnedders> "The food MUST contain beef, lettuce, tomato, pineapple, beetroot, as well as bread and MAY contain egg and onion."
  652. # [23:09] <gsnedders> (is that right?)
  653. # [23:10] <gsnedders> Lachy: oh, certainly, I'm objecting by not implementing Lachy's food REC
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  655. # [23:10] <Dashiva> I'm gonna be as bold as to add ketchup
  656. # [23:10] <Lachy> Food5
  657. # [23:10] <Lachy> of course, sauce is ok
  658. # [23:10] <gsnedders> Lachy: that'll cause endless flamewars.
  659. # [23:11] <Dashiva> The flamewars are even more pronounced when the flame-broiling is brought up
  660. # [23:11] * gsnedders needs to go sleep, though
  661. # [23:11] <Lachy> nn
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  663. # [23:11] <gsnedders> hope that I don't fail the English exam tomorrow afternoon for me :)
  664. # [23:12] <Lachy> I should start a burger shop called Burger5
  665. # [23:12] <Dashiva> Then I'll compete with my newly founded Burgr
  666. # [23:13] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Client Quit)
  667. # [23:16] * zcorpan will do Semantic Burger 2.0
  668. # [23:16] <zcorpan> with support for ARIA
  669. # [23:16] <zcorpan> and RDF
  670. # [23:18] <Dashiva> Really Delicious Food
  671. # [23:19] <zcorpan> Ain't Really ... hmm, can't come up with anything for "ARIA"
  672. # [23:19] <othermaciej> Lachy: ozzie burgers are funny
  673. # [23:20] <othermaciej> (never seen pineapple on them before though)
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  675. # [23:23] <Philip`> Really Simple Burgers - you have two pieces of bread, and inside you can put either the filling or a recipe for the filling, and there is no way for someone to tell the difference until they try eating it
  676. # [23:24] <Dashiva> And they try to check, you flame them for doing it wrong!
  677. # [23:26] <Lachy> othermaciej, fyi, it's spelt "Aussie" (unless you're referring to Ozzie Ostrich) - but what's funny about them?
  678. # [23:28] <othermaciej> Lachy: I've seen Australians use the term, but they are probably the bad kind from not-the-city-you're-from and your rugby team can totally beat their rugby team
  679. # [23:29] * Joins: Molly__ (n=Molly@ip72-200-124-50.tc.ph.cox.net)
  680. # [23:29] <Dashiva> Did I mention my markup language can beat up your markup language?
  681. # [23:29] * jgraham_ was about to object to pineapple+burger when he realised that his local pub does pineapple+stilton burger
  682. # [23:29] <Molly__> :: enters with an enormous piece of steak ::
  683. # [23:30] * Molly__ is now known as molly
  684. # [23:30] <jgraham_> Molly__: You can only come in if you're sharing
  685. # [23:30] <Dashiva> It's creepy when people enter the channel and join in on conversation that happened before they joined
  686. # [23:31] <molly> nah, there were rumors about a food fight in here
  687. # [23:31] <molly> I couldn't not join in :)
  688. # [23:31] <molly> jgraham : oh, I'll share
  689. # [23:31] <jwalden> mm, pineapple
  690. # [23:32] <gsnedders> molly: as long as you don't blame me.
  691. # [23:32] <Lachy> molly, we were discussing the merits of putting pineapple and beetroot on burgers, and the possibility of writing a Burger5 specificaion
  692. # [23:32] <jgraham_> Excellent, I'll have mine rare.
  693. # [23:32] <gsnedders> jgraham_: ewwww
  694. # [23:32] <molly> what's the Burger4 spec say?
  695. # [23:32] <molly> in re pineapple and beetroot?
  696. # [23:32] <gsnedders> molly: who needs Burger4? We just have Food4 and Burger1!
  697. # [23:33] <molly> but how will we style the burger?
  698. # [23:33] <Philip`> We need to do a survey of existing burgers to find the current best practices
  699. # [23:33] <jgraham_> Unless it's really nice in which case maybe some sort of steak tartare
  700. # [23:33] <Lachy> Well, the McOz was a success for McDonalds in Australia, and I think that was based on Burger3.2
  701. # [23:33] <molly> what about all this buzz about BurgerML?
  702. # [23:33] * gsnedders points molly at IM.
  703. # [23:34] <gsnedders> Am I emo, or not?
  704. # [23:34] <gsnedders> </totally_out_of_context>
  705. # [23:34] <jgraham_> <bun><meat origin="unidentified"/></bun>
  706. # [23:34] <molly> apparently, this allows for burger extensibility
  707. # [23:35] <molly> I'm not sure how this plays into the grander scheme of burger specs
  708. # [23:35] <gsnedders> molly: nonono, Burger5 needs to be an XML5 application.
  709. # [23:36] <molly> has that already been decided?
  710. # [23:36] <gsnedders> No, but the emo kid says so, so it must be true.
  711. # [23:36] <molly> I'm not sure how far we could extend a burger
  712. # [23:36] <gsnedders> Pineapple?
  713. # [23:36] <molly> I mean, a burger is a fairly well-defined entity
  714. # [23:37] <molly> is that an extension?
  715. # [23:37] <jgraham_> Presumably McDonalds could embed almost anything from ChemML into a burger
  716. # [23:37] <molly> or merely a style variation?
  717. # [23:37] <molly> jgraham now that worries me a bit
  718. # [23:37] <molly> hmm, do I detect a namespace concern?
  719. # [23:39] <gsnedders> well we definitely need to embed ChemML into Burgr5.0
  720. # [23:40] <annevk> I think burgers are already addressed by http:// and tel:
  721. # [23:40] <molly> I don't like the idea of a meat element
  722. # [23:40] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  723. # [23:40] <molly> we need something more generic that would include non-meat ingredients
  724. # [23:41] <gsnedders> Food5?
  725. # [23:41] <molly> it's too presentational
  726. # [23:41] <Philip`> Use DTD modularisation to create a vegetarian profile
  727. # [23:41] * molly thinks we might be on to something!
  728. # [23:41] <jgraham_> The meat affects the burger semantics for sure
  729. # [23:41] <annevk> <meat> is presentational?
  730. # [23:41] <annevk> hmm
  731. # [23:41] <molly> well you can have a veggie burger
  732. # [23:41] <molly> which doesn't have meat
  733. # [23:42] <annevk> sure
  734. # [23:42] <jgraham_> veggie burger is not a presentational variation on a proper burger by any strech of the imagination
  735. # [23:42] <molly> do we really need TWO elements or one more semantic element?
  736. # [23:42] <annevk> but <burger><meat/></burger> would be quite a different burger from <burger><salad/></burger>
  737. # [23:42] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) ("Leaving")
  738. # [23:42] <molly> but it's called a veggie "burger"
  739. # [23:42] <annevk> in practice it turns out that more elements is better
  740. # [23:42] <annevk> see HTML <object>
  741. # [23:43] <jgraham_> Sure. <burger> would be the root element
  742. # [23:43] <Philip`> You could grow a chicken out of Quorn and then have a vegetarian chickenburger
  743. # [23:43] <molly> that's a fair point
  744. # [23:43] <molly> but wouldn't a veggie burger be a variant?
  745. # [23:43] <molly> so you'd have <meat variant="veggie" />
  746. # [23:43] <molly> that doesn't make any sense
  747. # [23:44] <molly> I know, how about "filler"
  748. # [23:44] <jgraham_> <burger><bread type="bun"><cheese/><meat type="bacon"/><meat type="beef"/></bread></burger>
  749. # [23:44] <molly> <filler type="beef" />
  750. # [23:44] <Lachy> as long as vege-burgers are not supported in BurgerML, I'm happy
  751. # [23:44] <molly> Lachy, why not?
  752. # [23:44] <Lachy> s/vege/vegie/
  753. # [23:44] <Lachy> cause a buger isn't a burger without meat
  754. # [23:45] * Quits: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Client Quit)
  755. # [23:45] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@c-76-124-50-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  756. # [23:45] <molly> being a voracious carnivore myself I'd tend to agree
  757. # [23:45] <molly> but that's not true in a broader social context
  758. # [23:45] <Lachy> damn, I still didn't spell "veggie" right :-(
  759. # [23:46] <molly> now I'm hungry
  760. # [23:52] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  761. # [23:53] * molly takes a big bite of her fully compliant and accessible Steak 2.2
  762. # [23:59] <Philip`> Does anyone happen to know if an affine-transformed Bézier curve is equal to an untransformed Bézier between transformed control points?
  763. # Session Close: Wed Jan 16 00:00:00 2008

The end :)