/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-01-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jan 19 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:36] <Philip`> I wish I could use apostrophes in the comments in my canvas tests, without having to write them in pairs to avoid totally breaking Vim's YAML syntax highlighting
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  19. # [00:57] * Philip` spends a while adding descriptions to his test cases, then realises he's still only up to line 498 in the 7211-line source file and gives up
  20. # [01:02] <Philip`> hsivonen: Why does http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fmxr.mozilla.org%2Fmozilla%2Fsource%2Fcontent%2Fcanvas%2Ftest%2Ftest_2d.composite.image.copy.html%3Fforce%3D1&showsource=yes complain?
  21. # [01:02] <Philip`> with <body><canvas><p>
  22. # [01:02] <Philip`> when <body><p> is (I think) allowed, and <canvas> is transparent
  23. # [01:03] <annevk> ah good, <canvas> allows block-level content now?
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  34. # [01:27] <Philip`> Hixie: "The strokeRect() method must draw stroke the specified rectangle's path" - s/draw stroke/something/
  35. # [01:35] * SadEagle is now known as AwayEagle
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  38. # [01:40] <Hixie> "The strokeRect() method must something the specified rectangle's path" ? :-)
  39. # [01:40] <Philip`> Argh, my automatic spec-annotating script can't handle "Bézier"
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  42. # [01:41] <Philip`> Hixie: Sounds good to me!
  43. # [01:45] <Philip`> Hmm, can I complain that Opera's ImageData.data isn't a JS array?
  44. # [01:45] <Philip`> at least to the extent that ImageData.data.join(',') doesn't work
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  46. # [01:46] <Philip`> (where "complain" means "add a test case for", preferably with some kind of justification from specifications, except I can't see anything saying what IDL "int[]" means...)
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  48. # [01:50] <Hixie> Philip`: i'm waiting for dom bindings for js spec before really going there
  49. # [01:51] <Philip`> "The current path, shadow attributes, global alpha, clipping path, and global composition operator must not affect the getImageData() and putImageData() methods." - should that mention the CTM too?
  50. # [01:52] <Philip`> Hixie: Okay
  51. # [01:52] * Philip` will add a test anyway, because it causes interoperability problems in practice
  52. # [01:52] <Hixie> i thought i'd mentioned CTM with imagedata already
  53. # [01:52] <Philip`> I can't see it mentioned anywhere
  54. # [01:53] <Hixie> seems not indeed
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  60. # [02:02] <Philip`> Hixie: "The ImageData object's width is greater than zero." (and subsequent lines) is wrong, since it's talking about an object that's explicitly not an ImageData
  61. # [02:14] <Philip`> Hixie: What happens with NaN in ImageData.data? (It's not below 0, or above 255, and it can't be rounded to the nearest integer)
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  64. # [02:20] <Hixie> Philip`: i'm about to go offline for a few days, can you mail the last two lines you wrote to the list/me?
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  66. # [02:20] <Philip`> Hixie: Okay, will do
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  68. # [02:20] <Hixie> (well, not completely offline, but likely not working on the spec)
  69. # [02:20] <Hixie> thanks dude
  70. # [02:21] <Hixie> your help is, as ever, highly appreciated
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  74. # [02:25] <Philip`> Hmm, is NaN a Number?
  75. # [02:26] <AwayEagle> in ES sense, yes
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  77. # [02:26] <Philip`> Ah, thanks
  78. # [02:26] <othermaciej> it's not an instance of the Number builtin class, but it is an intance of the Number value type
  79. # [02:26] <Philip`> (That is mildly confusing...)
  80. # [02:26] <othermaciej> (to be exactingly clear)
  81. # [02:26] <Philip`> Oh
  82. # [02:26] <othermaciej> what, that Not a Number is a Number?
  83. # [02:27] <Philip`> Yes
  84. # [02:27] <Philip`> I'm mostly just wondering if "a data attribute whose value is an enumerable list of values that are either JS Numbers or the JS value undefined." is allowed to contain NaN
  85. # [02:27] <Philip`> so it sounds like it probably is
  86. # [02:27] <AwayEagle> I don't remember, is the Number constructor object a Number? :-)
  87. # [02:27] <othermaciej> in ECMA-262 terms, it's a 4.3.20 Number Type
  88. # [02:28] <othermaciej> not a 4.3.21 Number Object
  89. # [02:28] <Philip`> (or at least it's close enough to be worth being explicit about how it's handled)
  90. # [02:28] <othermaciej> sorry, I meant it's a 4.3.19 Number Value (NaN that is)
  91. # [02:28] <othermaciej> NaN is a JS Number, yeah, in that sense
  92. # [02:28] <AwayEagle> you could use 4.3.20 and 4.3.23 too ;-)
  93. # [02:28] <Philip`> Is e.g. 7 the same 4.3.19 Number Value too?
  94. # [02:28] <othermaciej> to be anal it could distinguish Number Type and Number Object
  95. # [02:29] <othermaciej> Philip`: yes
  96. # [02:29] <Philip`> Okay
  97. # [02:29] <othermaciej> the Number Object type only comes into play when you call methods on a number or explicitly invoke the Number constructor to make a wrapper object
  98. # [02:29] <othermaciej> primitive types in ECMAScript (Number, String, Boolean) have corresponding wrapper object types
  99. # [02:29] <Philip`> That makes sense
  100. # [02:30] <othermaciej> which are sometimes created automatically
  101. # [02:30] <AwayEagle> othermaciej: oh, I need to show you the nasty String.prototype.toString testcase I showed ggaren
  102. # [02:30] <Philip`> Similar to Java, I guess?
  103. # [02:30] <othermaciej> Philip`: yes, but worse
  104. # [02:34] <AwayEagle> othermaciej: http://rafb.net/p/jLOXKL92.html (speaking of worse)
  105. # [02:36] <Philip`> Hmm, Opera 9.5 has gone from 93% down to 81% on the ImageData tests
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  116. # [03:12] <heycam> Hixie, for an acid3 submission, what's the best way to get a new document? create an iframe and insert it into the document?
  117. # [03:13] <heycam> or should i use the getTestDocument() function?
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  134. # [03:48] <Hixie> heycam: just use createDocument on the DOMImplementation object
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  136. # [03:48] <Hixie> heycam: getTestDocument() is used too much already
  137. # [03:48] <Hixie> heycam: and creating an iframe is asynchronous and so wouldn't work in the function
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  142. # [04:05] <takkaria> gsnedders: I don't know how much data you have on the cookie5 issue, but
  143. # [04:06] <takkaria> gsnedders: http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/jmb/test/cookies.php yields the results shown in http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/jmb/test/results/cookies.txt for a bunch of major browsers
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  224. # [09:41] <MacDome> Hixie: I need you to explain your @font-face test at some point
  225. # [09:41] <MacDome> I dont' see why your X is in the right place
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  228. # [09:42] <Hixie> the containing block is the rectangle the size of the viewport, anchored at the origin
  229. # [09:42] <MacDome> Hixie: I guess the 20px is supposed to be measured from the top of the viewport instead of the top of the body?
  230. # [09:42] <Hixie> yes
  231. # [09:42] <Hixie> the body isn't position:relative or anything
  232. # [09:42] <MacDome> interesting
  233. # [09:42] <MacDome> I wonder if we get that wrong for all absolute positioning
  234. # [09:43] <MacDome> I don't think generated content would be treated differently here
  235. # [09:45] <MacDome> Hixie: well, I'll have to ask hyatt
  236. # [09:45] <Hixie> heh
  237. # [09:46] <MacDome> oh, actually
  238. # [09:46] <MacDome> hum... we seem to do this right most of the time
  239. # [09:46] <MacDome> why fail in this case?
  240. # [09:48] <MacDome> Hixie: and he margins on <html> don't affect this?
  241. # [09:48] <MacDome> or on :root ?
  242. # [09:49] <Hixie> why would they?
  243. # [09:49] * MacDome doens't know
  244. # [09:49] * MacDome hasn't read css 2.1 yet :)
  245. # [09:50] * MacDome kinda thinks of <html> as the viewport, but maybe its' not
  246. # [09:50] <MacDome> Hixie: yeah, margins on <html> seem to affect absolute positioning in Safari and FF
  247. # [09:50] <MacDome> your test would suggest that they're not supposed to
  248. # [09:51] <Hixie> see css2.1 section 10.1
  249. # [09:52] <Hixie> first bullet point
  250. # [09:55] <MacDome> it's actually bullet 4 which is most intersting
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  274. # [12:38] <hsivonen> Can someone remind me why Unicode reserves U+FFFE as a non-character?
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  276. # [12:41] <annevk> maybe for bitshifting?
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  278. # [12:44] <hsivonen> annevk: oh right. it's the byteswapped FEFF
  279. # [12:44] <hsivonen> silly me
  280. # [12:45] <hsivonen> thanks
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  290. # [13:22] <zcorpan> annevk: i think the 512 bytes thing for the <meta charset> is since long gone
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  297. # [13:46] <annevk> fixed
  298. # [13:52] <hsivonen> it is interesting how the mindset in some circles has shifted from everything-in-XML to everything-in-JSON
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  300. # [13:58] <othermaciej> I insist on everything in octet sequences
  301. # [13:58] <othermaciej> it's what the link layer demands!
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  303. # [13:59] <zcorpan> "These elements have new meanings in HTML 5 which are incompatible with HTML 4. The new meanings better reflect the way they are used on the Web or gives them a purpose so people can start using them."
  304. # [13:59] <zcorpan> i find this paragraph confusing and i think it gets the wrong point across
  305. # [13:59] <zcorpan> the point it gets across is that html5 is incompatible with html4
  306. # [14:00] <zcorpan> i'd suggest to change it to something along the lines of "These elements have slightly modified meanings in HTML5 to better reflect how they are used on the Web or make them more useful."
  307. # [14:02] <zcorpan> also, the last bullet point doesn't seem to fit in that section. it discusses the optionalness of an attribute -- not changed meanings
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  309. # [14:04] <zcorpan> i'd suggest to either strike it or phrase it in such a way that it discusses the meaning of <img> when it has no alt=''
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  311. # [14:09] <zcorpan> since <img> with no alt='' represents an image and <img> with alt='' also represents an image, it seems that the meaning hasn't really changed since html4
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  322. # [14:41] <jwalden> zcorpan: note Hixie's out for a few days and not watching, probably want to send email
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  324. # [14:42] <zcorpan> jwalden: this is about the differences document, which annevk is editing
  325. # [14:42] <jwalden> ah
  326. # [14:42] <jwalden> carry on!
  327. # [14:42] <zcorpan> :)
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  344. # [16:40] <SadEagle> Hixie: hi... are you perhaps here and have a second free?
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  349. # [17:12] <jwalden> SadEagle: he's gone for a couple days, send email
  350. # [17:14] <SadEagle> jwalden: thanks. does he have a preferred labeling scheme or something?
  351. # [17:14] <jwalden> "labeling scheme"?
  352. # [17:15] <SadEagle> as in titles, etc, to help him sort things out.
  353. # [17:17] <jwalden> dunno
  354. # [17:20] <Philip`> SadEagle: For emails? Things get sorted into folders like http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ manually, so the subject line doesn't seem critical
  355. # [17:21] <SadEagle> Philip`: thanks. is there an acid3 issues page, perhaps?
  356. # [17:22] * Joins: jgraham__ (n=jgraham@81-86-208-109.dsl.pipex.com)
  357. # [17:27] <Philip`> SadEagle: There isn't - I'd guess most Acid3 discussion is by IRC or private email
  358. # [17:29] <jwalden> so far I've found he's been responsive enough here to suffice
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  370. # [18:29] <annevk> zcorpan, fixed
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  374. # [19:32] <jgraham> Does anyone have a good example of a table where colgroups are needed, assuming that table headers naturally apply to all columns they span?
  375. # [19:35] <jgraham> (specifically I'm looking at the headers thing again, I understand that, in principle, colgroup can be used for other things)
  376. # [19:39] <jgraham> Presumably such a table would have a header that didn't span an entire colgroup but did apply to all the cells in the colgroup.
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  387. # [21:12] * Philip` installs KDE 4.0.0
  388. # [21:12] <takkaria> .0.0 releases make me nervous
  389. # [21:12] <Philip`> Now I can sort of run the canvas tests in Konqueror, except half of them say "Service Temporarily Unavailable"
  390. # [21:12] <Philip`> takkaria: That's why I'm not replacing KDE3.5 with it, and am running it under a separate user account :-)
  391. # [21:13] <takkaria> ah, good move. :)
  392. # [21:17] <SadEagle> Philip`: cool. But if you're building from source, you're better off using 4.0 branch. I fixed a bunch of whoppers on there
  393. # [21:17] <SadEagle> Philip`: and fredrikh made some canvas progress since then. I can give you my test results, but they're kind of cheating
  394. # [21:20] <Philip`> SadEagle: I'm just using Gentoo's packages for now - would it be straightforward to just compile Konqueror from source, without having to manually build the rest of KDE4?
  395. # [21:20] <SadEagle> depends on your definition of straightforward and the rest. You'd only need kdelibs. But I don't know if gentoo does any tricks for concurrent installs and whatnot
  396. # [21:21] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-143.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  397. # [21:22] <SadEagle> Philip`: do you have some sort of an AVM router?
  398. # [21:24] <Philip`> SadEagle: "straightforward" means copying-and-pasting a few commands to get it compiled and installed somewhere safe (like in /home since I don't want to mess up anything on my system) and running, ideally
  399. # [21:24] <Philip`> AVM router?
  400. # [21:26] <SadEagle> german(?) router vendor of some sort.. a lot of people reporting the timeout problem seem to have one of those.
  401. # [21:27] <Philip`> Ah
  402. # [21:27] <Philip`> I don't, and it was a server-side error message anyway
  403. # [21:27] <SadEagle> As for straightforward.. hmm, it's not too few commands, but there are howtos that are very safe, let me dig it up. Actually, if you're building with tests on, you only need kdelibs, though testkhtml isn't much of a browser :-)
  404. # [21:28] <Philip`> On a page with loads of iframes, is there some limit on how many concurrent connections Kwhatever will create?
  405. # [21:28] <Philip`> (I saw dozens of kio-something processes, which seemed odd)
  406. # [21:28] <SadEagle> not sure. I need to double check. there may be too many :(
  407. # [21:29] <SadEagle> note that there is a bug with onload events with many iframes using the same image -- that's the 'cheating' part I was referring to
  408. # [21:29] <Philip`> Ah
  409. # [21:30] <Philip`> Incidentally, please don't trust my tests to be correct if they're not saying something that's justified by the spec, since I haven't carefully reviewed them at all :-)
  410. # [21:31] <SadEagle> it should limit it to 32 requests, in theory, anyway
  411. # [21:31] <Philip`> Hmm, 32 seems a bit much when most browsers limit it to about 2...
  412. # [21:32] <SadEagle> that's global for the entire process, though.
  413. # [21:32] <SadEagle> may be it needs some sort of fancier policy
  414. # [21:33] * Philip` should run the tests on his local machine instead of potentially killing html5.org
  415. # [21:33] * SadEagle tests whether the limit really works.
  416. # [21:34] <SadEagle> oh.
  417. # [21:34] <SadEagle> there might be a problem with iframes without a content-type specified :(
  418. # [21:35] <SadEagle> wrt to # of requests.
  419. # [21:35] <Philip`> How do you specify a content-type on an iframe?
  420. # [21:40] <SadEagle> good point. only doable on object, right? :(
  421. # [21:41] <Philip`> Apparently so
  422. # [21:41] <Philip`> I used <iframe> rather than <object> because FF3-trunk didn't seem to do onload on <object> at the time when I was testing it
  423. # [21:41] <SadEagle> this may be hard to fix, will have to talk to some kparts gurus, better run it locally then.
  424. # [21:45] <Philip`> It's surprising how many bugs can be found in a test harness, without even considering the tests themselves :-)
  425. # [21:46] <Philip`> s/in/by/
  426. # [21:49] <SadEagle> the easiest way to build from source safely is to use this script, and not as .bashrc -- but an explicit one http://techbase.kde.org/index.php?title=Getting_Started/Increased_Productivity_in_KDE4_with_Scripts/.bashrc
  427. # [21:49] <SadEagle> then one can just source it in a terminal window for KDE4 stuff, and run things from there..
  428. # [21:51] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com)
  429. # [21:51] <SadEagle> most likely working steps would be: 1) cd 2) mkdir kde 3) cd kde 4) download that script as ~/kde4/setup-env 5) mkdir src 6) mkdir build
  430. # [21:53] <SadEagle> 7) cd src 8) svn checkout svn://anonsvn.kde.org/home/kde/branches/KDE/4.0/kdelibs 9) edit that setup-env script to remove the alias make=makeobj line 10) cd ../build && mkdir kdelibs && cd kdelibs 11) source ~/kde/setup-env 12) cmakekde
  431. # [21:53] <SadEagle> chances of me not making a mistake there: 0.
  432. # [21:54] <SadEagle> actially, step 10 is not needed :-)
  433. # [21:55] <Philip`> Thanks!
  434. # [21:55] * Philip` tries that
  435. # [21:55] <SadEagle> thanks for doing this
  436. # [22:01] <Philip`> "CMake Error: The source directory "/home/kde4/kde/src" does not appear to contain CMakeLists.txt."
  437. # [22:01] <Philip`> when doing step 12, having skipped step 10
  438. # [22:02] <SadEagle> cd ~/kde4/src/kdelibs, sorry.
  439. # [22:03] <Philip`> That seems happier - thanks again :-)
  440. # [22:04] <SadEagle> and thanks again for testing. Except now I'll have to fix the multi-frame image loading/onload bug ;-)
  441. # [22:25] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  442. # [22:31] <Philip`> Hmm, now I'm running something that might be the newly compiled version though I'm not certain
  443. # [22:31] <SadEagle> well, it didn't build konqueror, so probably not :-)
  444. # [22:31] <SadEagle> unless you also build kdebase when you weren't looking
  445. # [22:32] <SadEagle> what it did build is testkhtml.. go to ~/kde/build/kdelibs/bin, ./testkhtml <url goes here>
  446. # [22:32] <Philip`> I told it to run the old (4.0.0) Konqueror with the new ~/kde/lib directory
  447. # [22:33] <Philip`> and it prints lots of debug-like messages to the console, which it doesn't do when I run without ~/kde/lib
  448. # [22:33] <Philip`> so it sounds like it's doing something different
  449. # [22:34] <SadEagle> hmm, I am honestly not sure what will happen. easy way to check, though: cat /proc/<pid>/maps | grep khtml, and see where it comes from
  450. # [22:34] <Philip`> (Incidentally, Canvex seems to reveal a bug - the upscaling image filter wraps around the edges)
  451. # [22:34] <SadEagle> hmm, odd.
  452. # [22:35] <Philip`> b456b000-b4a3a000 r-xp 00000000 08:04 8930658 /home/kde4/kde/lib/libkhtml.so.5.0.0
  453. # [22:35] <SadEagle> sounds like it worked.
  454. # [22:35] <Philip`> (Also, Canvex reveals an apparent lack of XHTML support :-p )
  455. # [22:35] <Philip`> Also, View Source crashes
  456. # [22:36] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  457. # [22:36] <SadEagle> Philip`: for reasons I am too embarassed to admit. it's using the html parser. Actually, I completely forgot why we didn't switch it over.
  458. # [22:36] <Philip`> (but maybe it's not helped by me having a mixture of different KDE versions)
  459. # [22:38] <Philip`> I think parsing XML with an HTML parser is sadly non-conforming :-(
  460. # [22:39] <SadEagle> :(
  461. # [22:41] <SadEagle> one of those days I'll understand XHTML and flip the switch.
  462. # [22:43] <Philip`> Failed assertion ctx.fillStyle matches /^#(?!(FF0000|ff0000|f00)$)/ (got #ff0000[string])
  463. # [22:43] <Philip`> How come that doesn't match?
  464. # [22:44] <Philip`> Oops
  465. # [22:44] * Philip` missed the !
  466. # [22:45] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  467. # [22:46] <Philip`> Also, it'd be nice to have getImageData so the test results are more automatic :-)
  468. # [22:46] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  469. # [22:46] <SadEagle> yeah, if I can get Hixie to make it spec'd in a way I can do it w/o killing the GC
  470. # [22:47] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  471. # [22:59] <Philip`> Once this is all complete, you'll have to start on 3D canvas ;-)
  472. # [22:59] <SadEagle> that's for fredrikh, not me :-)
  473. # [23:11] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  474. # [23:16] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  475. # [23:17] * MacDome is now known as MacDomeOut
  476. # [23:50] * Philip` discovers that his bank now allows Opera, instead of redirecting to a page which supposedly lists supported browsers but actually they obviously didn't test that page since it didn't work
  477. # Session Close: Sun Jan 20 00:00:00 2008

The end :)