/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-01-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jan 21 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:16] <annevk> is now the right time to drag that up again?
  4. # [00:17] <SadEagle> and yeah, I am not sure it'll do any good.
  5. # [00:19] <annevk> SadEagle, how exactly is KHTML different from WebCore at this point?
  6. # [00:20] <Philip`> Parse error at line 28: Expected ), got EOF
  7. # [00:20] * annevk actually thought KHTML was no longer maintained
  8. # [00:20] <SadEagle> annevk: very. I can't really say more in an accurate way.
  9. # [00:20] <SadEagle> annevk: that's false.
  10. # [00:20] <annevk> SadEagle, ok
  11. # [00:20] <SadEagle> (but I don't blame you for being mistaken)
  12. # [00:21] <annevk> so that makes 5 relatively mature rendering engines, nice
  13. # [00:21] <annevk> well, mature and maintained
  14. # [00:22] <Philip`> Shouldn't IE count as several?
  15. # [00:22] <annevk> the engine iCab had was also pretty good
  16. # [00:22] <annevk> Philip`, :(
  17. # [00:22] <SadEagle> well, it is more like 4.5, and we are certainly less likely to provide big features, unless we just lift them off Apple, which is still possible.
  18. # [00:24] <annevk> with not providing "big features" you mean not keeping up with the rest or not having lots of time to innovate yourselves?
  19. # [00:25] <SadEagle> I mean stuff like local DB, etc. I don't think we're really interested in innovating stuff, since realistically no one will use any extensions if we fell like inventing them.
  20. # [00:25] <SadEagle> I think you Opera folks should have a good idea of that... Well, I've certainly considered ripping off the browser JavaScript idea :-)
  21. # [00:26] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-43-39.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.80-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  22. # [00:30] <Philip`> You can innovate extensions then promote them as standards and have other browsers implement them and then people will start using the extensions and you'll already support them :-)
  23. # [00:31] <SadEagle> Philip`: you need spare manpower for that, though. And you need to be able to deal with stuff suddenly breaking, like IIRC it did on some sites for Opera due to WebForms 2.0
  24. # [00:32] <annevk> yeah, WF2 causes issues now and then
  25. # [00:33] <Philip`> It's best if those issues get discovered in browsers with very few users, so the specs can be fixed before anyone else is affected ;-)
  26. # [00:34] <Ketsuban> Bah, I want to install Konqueror so I can test my site design in it, but konqueror drags half of KDE kicking and screaming with it due to some really insane dependencies. konqueror-kde4 seems more well-behaved, but there's a disturbing amount of "core libraries" and other worrying-sounding packages which make me wonder if it's just the same as with konqueror, only the packages are divided up differently.
  27. # [00:35] <SadEagle> Ketsuban: you only need kdelibs and parts of kdebase.
  28. # [00:35] <SadEagle> though you probably want to lay off testing until 4.0.1 :-)
  29. # [00:36] <SadEagle> Philip`: the #1 issue any browser with small market share has is the user agent string.
  30. # [00:36] <annevk> Philip`, a major browser would simply get sites changed
  31. # [00:36] <SadEagle> .. as well as the minor browsers.
  32. # [00:38] * SadEagle is now known as SadKonversant
  33. # [00:38] * SadKonversant is now known as SadEagle
  34. # [00:38] <Ketsuban> SadEagle: Unless you can test for me. I don't plan on making any changes if it renders incorrectly, but I'm curious to know if it works. :P
  35. # [00:38] <SadEagle> Ketsuban: fair enough. I might throw the book at you, though :-)
  36. # [00:38] <Ketsuban> I'd like to test with Safari too, but I'm allergic to Macs.
  37. # [00:39] <SadEagle> Supposedly win Safari runs under Wine
  38. # [00:39] * Philip` can confirm that Safari works in Wine
  39. # [00:39] <Philip`> Something like http://browsershots.org/ might be useful for testing certain browser versions
  40. # [00:41] <Philip`> (Also, if you're allergic to Macs but not to Windows then you could just run Safari in Windows properly)
  41. # [00:41] <Ketsuban> At any rate: http://ketsuban.cleverpun.com/testing/blogdesign/index.html is the page to test. I know it works in Opera 9.5 weeklies, Firefox 2 and IE7, it "works" in Opera 9.25 (there's a bug regarding sizing with ems which I could work around with JavaScript, but an't willing to do) and doesn't work in IE6 or below (for which I have provided a slightly-snarky message telling people to upgrade to IE7).
  42. # [00:42] <othermaciej> whether UA checks are a problem depends on the type of site
  43. # [00:42] <othermaciej> unfortunately, fancy advanced "web app" type sites are the most likely to completely lock you out based on UA string
  44. # [00:42] <othermaciej> or otherwise rely on UA testing in a bad way
  45. # [00:43] <SadEagle> Ketsuban: looks fine, in both 3.5.something and 4.0.1-pre. Except it doesn't look so hot at 1024x768
  46. # [00:43] <Ketsuban> Normally if I'm working on a site design I'll write it in a compliant browser (generally I'll start off with Firefox, then make sure it works in standards-compliant browsers by testing in Opera) and then provide fixes for IE using conditional comments.
  47. # [00:43] <Philip`> Fancy advanced "web app" types sites are the most likely to do X, for any action X :-)
  48. # [00:44] <Ketsuban> SadEagle: Yeah, one thing I'm going to do is take out the 200px left margin - that's a relic from when I had an image there I wanted to show through. :P
  49. # [00:44] <Philip`> Unfortunately Firefox and Opera aren't standards-compliant :-p
  50. # [00:44] <SadEagle> othermaciej: jquery 1.2.something used to crash on its browser check is the browser wasn't one in a certain set of 4.
  51. # [00:44] <othermaciej> a certain Major Web App Vendor has code in many of their web apps that test if you have certain combinations of methods and properties available on the DOM Element and Document interfaces, and if so assumes what browser you are, and then makes completely unrelated assumptions
  52. # [00:44] <othermaciej> because their experts on the matter told them not to test the UA string
  53. # [00:45] <othermaciej> so they ended up finding a way to do it even worse
  54. # [00:45] <SadEagle> heh. browser fingerprinting is a fun topic, though.
  55. # [00:45] <othermaciej> (we found out because in Safari we fixed what methods were on Document and Element to better match other browsers, and they no longer detected us as Safari)
  56. # [00:45] <othermaciej> (so they started using Firefox designMode hacks instead of contentEditable for editing)
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  58. # [00:48] <annevk> I wonder what contenteditable quirks Firefox 3 will introduce
  59. # [00:49] <SadEagle> so othermaciej, are you awake enough to talk about the quirks in handling of Cf characters? :-)
  60. # [00:49] <Ketsuban> SadEagle: Would you prefer centred or left-aligned? I slightly prefer centred, but left-aligned may well work better at 1024x768.
  61. # [00:49] <othermaciej> SadEagle: we just don't do Cf dropping at all - we used to but it caused web compat problems with Firefox and IE
  62. # [00:49] <othermaciej> that's all I remember
  63. # [00:49] <SadEagle> Ketsuban: I have no artistic taste :-)
  64. # [00:49] <othermaciej> if BOMs are dropped it's probably at another level (text decoding or something)
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  66. # [00:50] <SadEagle> othermaciej: well, the point is that Mozilla drops -some- Cf's. (Not the soft-hyphen). It also handles zero-width space as a space...
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  68. # [00:50] <othermaciej> I don't know how exhaustively we match all their quirks
  69. # [00:51] <SadEagle> othermaciej: IE handles the BOM at whitespace, drops the inverse BOM at the beginning of the file, and has totally weird behavior in ~4 other characters, which is appears to permit in identifiers in some spots(?)
  70. # [00:52] <SadEagle> othermaciej: I don't see anything like that in your version of Lexer.cpp....
  71. # [00:52] <othermaciej> SadEagle: I don't think we do either of those sets of quirks
  72. # [00:53] <othermaciej> if you have a particular site breaking I can try it and see if I can figure out why/whether it works
  73. # [00:53] <SadEagle> tvguide.com :-)
  74. # [00:53] <othermaciej> I would guess our text codecs drop stray BOMs
  75. # [00:53] <SadEagle> probably. /me tries the testcase in Opera.
  76. # [00:53] <SadEagle> othermaciej: my tendency is probably just to handle it as whitespace, and not worry much unless something comes up.
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  78. # [00:54] <othermaciej> I think soft hyphen may be the only case we ran into where folowing the spec caused a real compat ssue
  79. # [00:56] <SadEagle> heh, and Opera 9.24 does something entirely different :-)
  80. # [00:56] <annevk> I think BOM as whitespace char is part of ES4
  81. # [01:00] <SadEagle> Opera9.24 seem to handle Cf as identifier characters, except leading BOMs are stripped, and ZWSP is stripped in some contexts(?)
  82. # [01:02] <SadEagle> Philip`: see, you're right, nothing is standards compliant. JSC tried following ES3, and it broke a website :-)
  83. # [01:11] <Philip`> Has anybody already mentioned that <canvas> ImageData won't work with high-end display systems that use 12-bit colour components, or floating point components?
  84. # [01:14] <SadEagle> I guess it should permit better precision in the same range?
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  86. # [01:15] <Philip`> That wouldn't help the floating-point HDR case, though maybe that case is a bit too theoretical
  87. # [01:16] <SadEagle> I suppose the clamping is the right behavior for a non-HDR implementation on HDR data, or am I mistaken?
  88. # [01:17] <Philip`> Depends on whether you consider data loss to be "right behavior" :-)
  89. # [01:19] <annevk> css has the same issue
  90. # [01:19] <SadEagle> well, premultiplied alpha is data loss, too ....
  91. # [01:19] <annevk> although CSS has the weird thing that it allows percentages too which allow for a far larger range than the integer alternative
  92. # [01:20] <Philip`> When we all have cyborg eyes that can detect four distinct colours, all this three-component RGB legacy will be a real pain
  93. # [01:20] <SadEagle> It definitely seems like something that should be permitted. So if an implementation supports 9 bits,and is given 179.5, it can represent it well.
  94. # [02:05] <roc> othermaciej: what was the soft-hyphen problem with following the spec?
  95. # [02:06] <roc> if there's some site depending on us not following the spec, I'll make sure we break them in Firefox 3 :-)
  96. # [02:06] <othermaciej> roc: the ECMAScript 3 spec says that soft hyphens in JS source should be skipped, but Mozilla doesn't do that (in fact the Mozilla JS regression tests had a test in the ecma_3 directory that tests for not doing it)
  97. # [02:06] <othermaciej> roc: I don't think dropping soft hyphens is a useful behavior anyway
  98. # [02:06] <othermaciej> it should just be dropped in ES4
  99. # [02:06] <roc> ah ok, JS, sorry, can't help you there
  100. # [02:07] <othermaciej> roc: I'm not sure breaking sites to follow the spec is always be best approach in any case
  101. # [02:07] <othermaciej> depends on the bug and the site
  102. # [02:07] <roc> yep
  103. # [02:07] <Dashiva> Philip`: Isn't part of the motivation for imagedata being able to fit it into bytes for an bytearray?
  104. # [02:08] <othermaciej> in that way I guess it's healthier to be doing testing and development on specs where a new version is under active development, so things can be fixed in the spec too
  105. # [02:08] <roc> specs need maintenance too
  106. # [02:10] <Philip`> We need an acid test for specs, to detect when the specs are broken
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  108. # [02:10] <othermaciej> yes and it's hard to develop against an unmaintained spec
  109. # [02:10] <Dashiva> Philip`: First we need a spec spec to say what's a conforming spec
  110. # [02:10] <othermaciej> I'd say DOM Core is probably the most unmaintained now
  111. # [02:10] <othermaciej> although for ES4 it's very hard right now to tell how much it is fixing ES3 spec bugs
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  114. # [03:13] <Lachy> interesting. IE6 supports security=restricted attribute for iframes http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/01/18/using-frames-more-securely.aspx
  115. # [03:14] <othermaciej> I'm curious how much detail is available about what they restrict
  116. # [03:14] <othermaciej> it might be a useful thing for ad frames or the like
  117. # [03:15] <othermaciej> or if you were willing to put user-generated content in an iframe you could use it for XSS robustness
  118. # [03:15] <webben> othermaciej: It says: "Frames running in the Restricted Sites zone cannot run script" so I'm guessing: not very useful.
  119. # [03:16] <othermaciej> webben: I guess it depends on how much of what your ad server does is client-side
  120. # [03:16] <othermaciej> I guess even a regular iframe off of a different domain is a useful security restriction
  121. # [03:16] <webben> Sure. But the typical graphical ad seems very JS-dependent.
  122. # [03:16] <othermaciej> they're either animated gifs or Flash
  123. # [03:16] <othermaciej> few of them use JS as part of the ad per se
  124. # [03:17] <SadEagle> a huge number use JS to boostrap it
  125. # [03:17] <webben> indeed
  126. # [03:17] <webben> pretty much all of them on the network I work on --- although most have a noscript fallback or whatever.
  127. # [03:18] <webben> that's not to say they genuinely require JS for what they do; but changing what ad authors do isn't necessarily easy
  128. # [03:18] <webben> (there's also the issue of JS used for click tracking etc)
  129. # [03:20] <SadEagle> Hmm, does window.location on a frame actually navigate the entire window, though?
  130. # [03:21] <othermaciej> no
  131. # [03:22] <othermaciej> it navigates the frame
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  133. # [03:23] <SadEagle> I thought so :-). yeah, so the example in the blog is wrong.
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  136. # [03:57] <weinig_> SadEagle: it could do top.location though
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  138. # [03:57] <SadEagle> weinig_: hmm, right, the XSS models permits setting of location href :(
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  179. # [10:43] <jruderman> Hixie: safari messes up http://www.libpr0n.com/ :(
  180. # [10:43] <jruderman> Hixie: i think acid3 should test whatever it is that makes safari mess it up
  181. # [10:44] <jruderman> clearly something related to the "@ debug" thing
  182. # [10:47] <othermaciej> jruderman: @ debug; * { border: 1px solid white ! important; } /* see below */ is matching
  183. # [10:47] <othermaciej> I'm not sure whether it should or not
  184. # [10:48] <othermaciej> as I do not know what is expected to terminate a bad @ rule
  185. # [10:48] <othermaciej> I am not sure why it uses such a weird-ass technique to comment that line
  186. # [10:48] <jruderman> "see below" has a long explanation
  187. # [10:49] <jruderman> it's there to give the site author an easy way to toggle that rule on and off (by switching between "@debug" and "@ debug")
  188. # [10:49] <othermaciej> crazy stuff
  189. # [10:50] <jruderman> yes, crazy stuff
  190. # [10:50] <othermaciej> I am too lazy to check the spec references
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  196. # [11:17] <annevk> at-rules are ; or { }-block terminated
  197. # [11:17] <annevk> so Safari is buggy
  198. # [11:19] <annevk> seems that Opera pre-9.5 got this wrong too
  199. # [11:19] <annevk> maybe pre-9.3 hmm
  200. # [11:20] <Ketsuban> I wasn't aware @debug was a valid at-rule.
  201. # [11:20] <annevk> it's not
  202. # [11:22] <Ketsuban> So changing @ debug to @debug ought to have no effect.
  203. # [11:22] <annevk> it should have effect
  204. # [11:23] <Philip`> Changing from @ debug to @debug changes it from invalid selector to invalid at-rule, which is different
  205. # [11:23] <annevk> there are generic parsing rules for at-rules
  206. # [11:23] * annevk initially thought the trick was @debug versus @debug;
  207. # [11:24] <Ketsuban> "User agents must ignore an invalid at-keyword together with everything following it, up to and including the next semicolon (;) or block ({...}), whichever comes first."
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  209. # [11:28] <Ketsuban> Either way this is a really stupid "trick" - if you want to "quickly switch on/off a style" comment/uncomment it.
  210. # [11:30] <annevk> it's just a hack
  211. # [11:31] <annevk> and probably not widely known
  212. # [11:33] <Philip`> It's probably intended to break as many non-Mozilla browsers as possible
  213. # [11:35] <annevk> yeah
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  215. # [11:39] <jruderman> hehe
  216. # [11:39] <jruderman> who owns libpr0n.com? hixie?
  217. # [11:42] <jruderman> http://libpr0n.com/links.html tries to link a porn site, but apparently its registration expired and now it displays a non-porn squatter page. what irony ;)
  218. # [11:51] <krijnh> Wow, I didn't disconnect :)
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  224. # [12:08] <othermaciej> the actual CSS file contains "@ debug;"
  225. # [12:09] <othermaciej> the trick is that this is the start of a bad selector, not a bad @rule
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  236. # [14:17] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  237. # [14:17] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  319. # [15:03] <gsnedders> a feed served as text/rdf. fun.
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  321. # [15:10] * Philip` wonders what makes it fun
  322. # [15:11] <gsnedders> Philip`: doing magic tricks working out what content is :)
  323. # [15:12] <gsnedders> (also note text/rdf is an unregistered MIME type, RDF should be application/rdf+xml)
  324. # [15:14] <Philip`> Having seen a "Content-Type: ��~/html;charset=UTF-8", I won't consider any content-type fun if it merely has the wrong letters in it
  325. # [15:15] <Philip`> Also, argh, those characters break my IRC display
  326. # [15:16] <gsnedders> :P
  327. # [15:36] <Ketsuban> Philip`: Can you give Unicode references for those? They got replaced with U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER.
  328. # [15:39] <Philip`> Ketsuban: I can't, since I only see U+FFFD and I can't just redownload the headers since they're random
  329. # [15:39] <Philip`> but see HEAD http://www.louvre.fr for a live demonstration :-)
  330. # [15:40] <Ketsuban> Looks normal to me.
  331. # [15:41] <gsnedders> looks fine to me too
  332. # [15:41] <Philip`> Using HEAD, not GET?
  333. # [15:42] <annevk> doesn't look normal to me
  334. # [15:42] <Ketsuban> If I knew what "using HEAD, not GET" meant I might be able to tell. :P
  335. # [15:42] <gsnedders> using HEAD.
  336. # [15:43] <zcorpan> http://www.rexswain.com/httpview.html says Content-Type:·text/html;·charset=iso-8859-1(CR)(LF)
  337. # [15:43] <Philip`> Oh, maybe my HEAD is following redirections
  338. # [15:43] <Philip`> Try it with http://www.louvre.fr/llv/commun/home.jsp instead
  339. # [15:43] <zcorpan> i tried with both follow and not follow redirects with rexswain
  340. # [15:44] <Ketsuban> Content-Type:·(B0)(HT)B(03)/html;charset=UTF-8(CR)(LF)
  341. # [15:44] <annevk> does that use HEAD requests though?
  342. # [15:44] <Philip`> Content-Type:·8(CC)D(06)/html;charset=UTF-8(CR)(LF)
  343. # [15:44] <zcorpan> ah yep
  344. # [15:44] <Philip`> Ketsuban: "(HT)" ?
  345. # [15:44] <annevk> I get a different response each time
  346. # [15:44] <Philip`> Oh, horizontal tab, not weird hex
  347. # [15:45] <zcorpan> ah, i didn't look at "Location 2" ...
  348. # [15:45] <annevk> �`D/html;charset=UTF-8 and P'/html;charset=UTF-8 ...
  349. # [15:45] <Philip`> annevk: Now you've made my IRC display blink :-(
  350. # [15:46] <zcorpan> ������������������������������
  351. # [15:53] <didymos> Philip`, Yeah, it's quite annoying
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  354. # [16:20] <harri> same here. funny that it's still possible in 2008.
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  374. # [18:30] <gsnedders> annevk: re: dragging it up again: it never went away
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  409. # [21:49] <zcorpan> http://sitegod.blogspot.com/2008/01/alright-i-come-clean-i-hate-html-5.html
  410. # [21:58] <roc> lame
  411. # [21:58] <roc> It's good to hear we control the W3C though
  412. # [21:59] <SadEagle> indeed lame. I don't agree with some things in html5, but I can't argue with the preference of getting useful features in there, instead of taking part in self-indulgent dances going nowhere.
  413. # [22:01] <jasonw22> it's too bad folks don't limit themselves to the technical details in this discussion, and resort to hysterical vitriol
  414. # [22:02] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T7ba5.t.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  415. # [22:03] <gsnedders> And get the technical details wrong
  416. # [22:04] <SadEagle> uhm, the guy is 16 :-)
  417. # [22:04] <gsnedders> SadEagle: uhm, I'm 15
  418. # [22:04] <jasonw22> ah, 'nuf said
  419. # [22:05] <gsnedders> So I guess I'm as dumb as him, just because of my age.
  420. # [22:05] <SadEagle> gsnedders: that's not what I meant. I mean that some people of your age are not quite mature yet.
  421. # [22:06] <Philip`> Some people of any age aren't :-)
  422. # [22:07] <gsnedders> … which is the entire issue of basing it on age
  423. # [22:07] <SadEagle> well, but they should be held to a somewhat higher standard :-)
  424. # [22:07] * SadEagle ponders shutting his mouth before he digs an even bigger hole.
  425. # [22:10] <gsnedders> on the subject of digging your way out of holes, I ought to write a post about local branch of Tesco
  426. # [22:14] <gsnedders> <http://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/Madras-pupils-voice-anger-over.3369908.jp> — very shortened copy of the article in newspaper
  427. # [22:14] <Philip`> There was almost a new Tesco store a couple of years ago around where I lived, built on top of a railway tunnel, but it got delayed a bit because the tunnel collapsed and they haven't restarted building yet
  428. # [22:15] <gsnedders> That was silly, to say the least.
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  430. # [22:16] <Philip`> (Fortunately there weren't any trains there at the moment it collapsed, but it did cause quite a lot of disruption)
  431. # [22:17] <gsnedders> the whole situation here was far more bizarre than that article leads to suggest
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The end :)