/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-01-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 22 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:10] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.ca/867866 should fix your parse error Philip` as well as one or two other issues
  4. # [00:13] <gsnedders> (again, and further comments are welcome)
  5. # [00:13] <gsnedders> (and, before it's asked: the discussion about the issue never ended sadly, this won't make anything worse happen :P)
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  21. # [02:38] <Hixie> 5 tests to go
  22. # [02:38] <SadEagle> aha, hi Hixie.
  23. # [02:38] <SadEagle> I gotta some feedback/questions on some of the traversal ones, do you have time for that
  24. # [02:38] <Hixie> not right now, can you send mail?
  25. # [02:38] <Hixie> ian@hixie.ch
  26. # [02:39] <jwalden> SadEagle: curious, which ones, on the chance I know why they work?
  27. # [02:41] <SadEagle> test 02, this step: expect(10, i.nextNode(), t3); // filter 4
  28. # [02:41] <SadEagle> I don't see why that filter should ever run, since it's at the end of the physical list at that point (// B 1 2 [3] *, as commented)
  29. # [02:43] <SadEagle> Though, I am not sure the entire design of that test, and #1 really, is kosher due to "However, the exact timing of these filter calls may vary from one DOM implementation to another"
  30. # [02:44] <jwalden> SadEagle: ah, sorry -- was hoping it was treewalker, which I actually do understand (and which Gecko *does* implement) :-)
  31. # [02:44] <SadEagle> jwalden: those work fine for me :-)
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  34. # [03:00] <Hixie> SadEagle: fixed
  35. # [03:01] <SadEagle> thanks
  36. # [03:05] * jwalden is sad SVG made it into acid3
  37. # [03:05] * jwalden would have preferred an SVG acid test
  38. # [03:05] <Hixie> me too
  39. # [03:05] <Hixie> but i have tests to fill, and those were the tests people sent
  40. # [03:06] <jwalden> also, testing NamedNodeMap seems...less than truly useful :-\
  41. # [03:06] <jwalden> ([gs]et|has)Attribute is what people will actually use
  42. # [03:06] <Hixie> send better tests, and they can replace the ones there :-)
  43. # [03:07] <jwalden> I totally would, if I knew where people were hitting real bugs
  44. # [03:07] <Hixie> ditto
  45. # [03:07] <jwalden> care for any tests for HTML5 postMessage? I have some that completely trash at least Safari ;-)
  46. # [03:07] <jwalden> (I know you don't, now)
  47. # [03:08] * SadEagle could make totally useless ES262 tests that don't work anywhere :-)
  48. # [03:08] <Hixie> the rules for what can be in the test are at ln.hixie.ch
  49. # [03:08] <Hixie> e4x doesn't quite make the cut
  50. # [03:09] <Hixie> (es3 does, of course)
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  52. # [03:10] <jwalden> Hixie: seriously, you don't want E4X even if it did make the cut
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  54. # [03:10] * Hixie likes e4x, actually
  55. # [03:10] <jwalden> it looks nice
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  57. # [03:10] <Hixie> it would be so much better than innerHTML
  58. # [03:10] <jwalden> until you realize that 60-70% of the bugs that get filed against your implementation are bugs in the specification
  59. # [03:11] <jwalden> and that the spec isn't rigorously written to ensure XML type-safety
  60. # [03:11] <jwalden> or serialization validity
  61. # [03:11] <jwalden> or many other things
  62. # [03:11] <SadEagle> Hixie: your node traversal tests seems to assume that the nodefilter implementation doesn't move reference node to the candidate position before calling the filter. I am not sure that's justified (the spec is rather vague on effects of non-pure filters)
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  64. # [03:11] <Hixie> jwalden: i'm not familiar with the spec itself, but the idea certainly would be better than innerHTML
  65. # [03:12] <jwalden> Hixie: the syntax might work, more or less, but I think you need a clean base on which to build it; E4X is fundamentally flawed, and I would welcome a replacement that didn't suck
  66. # [03:12] <Hixie> SadEagle: surely moving the reference node before you knew if that node was rejected or not would make no sense?
  67. # [03:12] <Hixie> jwalden: i can't speak to that
  68. # [03:12] <jwalden> sure
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  70. # [03:12] <jwalden> just trying to educate
  71. # [03:12] <jwalden> ask brendan about it sometime
  72. # [03:12] <Hixie> :-)
  73. # [03:13] <SadEagle> Hixie: it makes a huge amount of sense from implementation robustness POV, and it's indistinguishable unless filters do iffy stuff.
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  75. # [03:13] <SadEagle> hmm, might not be so bad, actually.
  76. # [03:13] <Hixie> SadEagle: what would be different?
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  78. # [03:14] <SadEagle> could you please elaborate on that question?
  79. # [03:15] <SadEagle> actually, please ignore me for a bit. My head isn't working well right now, so I am likely wasting both of our's time
  80. # [03:15] <Hixie> heh
  81. # [03:16] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  82. # [03:16] <Hixie> i just meant what test result would be different
  83. # [03:17] <SadEagle> I'll defer that for a while to avoid any overly wrong answers...
  84. # [03:17] <Hixie> hehe
  85. # [03:17] <othermaciej> jwalden: if E4X style APIs are super convenient, it might be nice to use them on an in-tree DOM
  86. # [03:17] <othermaciej> E4X bundles together a couple of different things which make it an awkward fit with other web APIs
  87. # [03:18] <jwalden> othermaciej: quite possibly; the specification of those APIs is most but not all of the problem
  88. # [03:18] * SadEagle is now known as AwayEagle
  89. # [03:19] <othermaciej> 1) inline checked syntax for markup in JavaScript; 2) separate object model for XML documents/fragments; 3) simple (but to me kind of icky) API for manipulation and querying of XML chunklets
  90. # [03:19] <othermaciej> I think the sweet spot would be a cleaned up version of 1 and 3 without 2
  91. # [03:19] <Hixie> agreed
  92. # [03:55] <jwalden> oh, Hixie: I may have some postMessage tests for you to host somewhere, if I can work out a reasonable way to export them and make them runnable in any browser; I'll keep you posted
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  95. # [04:07] <Hixie> jwalden: cool. you're probably best off talking to anne about tests, he's got testsuites.org or whatever it's called
  96. # [04:07] <Hixie> or just submit them ot the html5 wg
  97. # [04:07] <Hixie> there's some sort of cvs system for tests there
  98. # [04:07] <jwalden> Hixie: problem is they require proxy mucking, due to the cross-domain requirement, so it's not quite as simple as "visit this page"
  99. # [04:08] <jwalden> but easy enough to handle, given the right tools
  100. # [04:08] <jwalden> and ability to tweak proxy autoconfig
  101. # [04:08] <Hixie> ah
  102. # [04:09] <jwalden> Hixie: I make liberal use of the reservations of example.com and example.org :-)
  103. # [04:09] <Hixie> heh
  104. # [04:09] <Hixie> my cross-site tests use another.domain.libpr0n.com and hixie.ch
  105. # [04:13] <Ketsuban> I don't suppose I could ask for some CSS selector assistance?
  106. # [04:14] <Ketsuban> I know it's not strictly on-topic, but #html is silent and this place isn't. :P
  107. # [04:15] <othermaciej> maybe #css would be a good place to ask about CSS
  108. # [04:17] <Ketsuban> I only realised that channel existed after I'd already asked here. Now I feel stupid. :P
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  118. # [07:38] <Hixie> bed time
  119. # [07:38] <Hixie> nn
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  121. # [07:59] <MacDome> holy crap
  122. # [07:59] <othermaciej> MacDome: eh?
  123. # [07:59] <MacDome> those are some wicked SVG tests
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  125. # [08:00] <othermaciej> in acid3?
  126. # [08:00] <MacDome> definitely living up to the directory name of "evil"
  127. # [08:00] <MacDome> although verging on "useless"
  128. # [08:00] <MacDome> but having good SVG font and animation support across all browsers could be very good for the web
  129. # [08:00] <MacDome> at least the bleeding edge bwe
  130. # [08:00] <MacDome> web
  131. # [08:02] <MacDome> I'm surprised that Safari 3.0.4 fails so badly on those SVG tests
  132. # [08:02] <MacDome> othermaciej: it's sad that most of the compat issues for the web are not the specified ones
  133. # [08:03] <MacDome> at least that's what I've seen in my limited experiance
  134. # [08:03] <othermaciej> MacDome: maybe you should submit tests that actually affect compat
  135. # [08:03] <MacDome> othermaciej: I agree, I think that's a good idea
  136. # [08:03] <MacDome> any of the bugs from help.improve.safari would be good candidates :)
  137. # [08:03] <othermaciej> I'm guessing these tests are effective in part due to testing some not-universally-implemented features
  138. # [08:04] <MacDome> assuming they can actually be found in a spec
  139. # [08:04] <othermaciej> testing the edge cases might be more effective than just testing a very basic case
  140. # [08:09] <MacDome> othermaciej: odd that getSVGDocument would fail on <object>
  141. # [08:09] <MacDome> I'm quite certain I implemented that... at least for <embed>
  142. # [08:09] <othermaciej> MacDome: it's a dumb API anyway, they should just use contentDocument
  143. # [08:09] <MacDome> supposedly that's failing too
  144. # [08:10] <MacDome> maybe it's expecting a "Document" instead of an "SVGDocument"
  145. # [08:10] <othermaciej> for an <object> containing SVG?
  146. # [08:10] <MacDome> I'll have to look at it
  147. # [08:10] <MacDome> for an object pointing to an SVG
  148. # [08:10] <MacDome> I haven't looked at the test yet
  149. # [08:10] <MacDome> (in detail)
  150. # [08:10] <MacDome> I expect that Hixie and I may have to go a couple rounds on it :)
  151. # [08:10] <othermaciej> I do see a getSVGDocument() call
  152. # [08:11] <othermaciej> in the IDL
  153. # [08:11] <othermaciej> but it checks for the document being an SVGDocument, not a document
  154. # [08:11] <othermaciej> (not sure if that is what's happening here)
  155. # [08:11] <MacDome> it was one of the first things I remember adding when SVG moved into WebCore from DrawCore :)
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  158. # [08:12] <MacDome> othermaciej: this might be our problem:
  159. # [08:12] <MacDome> Unsafe JavaScript attempt to access frame with URL data:image/svg+xml;base64,
  160. # [08:12] <MacDome> othermaciej: I see 4 of those in the console log
  161. # [08:12] <MacDome> othermaciej: I'm surprised data: urls aren't special cased
  162. # [08:13] <othermaciej> MacDome: they are special cased to deny all access
  163. # [08:13] <othermaciej> in both WebKit and Gecko
  164. # [08:13] <othermaciej> they have no privs and no access
  165. # [08:13] <othermaciej> so I think the test is invalid
  166. # [08:13] <othermaciej> unless something specifies the security model for data: URLs
  167. # [08:14] <othermaciej> (it's actually really hard to get a model that allows any form of access and is secure)
  168. # [08:16] <MacDome> othermaciej: well I filed it as http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16968, you and Hixie and weinig can debate it out there
  169. # [08:27] <MacDome> othermaciej: so why is it unsafe to allow access to data urls?
  170. # [08:28] <MacDome> because it's impossible to know where the data came from?
  171. # [08:28] <othermaciej> MacDome: well, the tempting model is to treat it like about:blank or javascript: URLs
  172. # [08:29] <othermaciej> MacDome: treating it like javascript: URLs would mean you have to prevent ever navigating a frame you don't have access to, to a data: URL
  173. # [08:29] <othermaciej> like we do for javascript:
  174. # [08:29] * MacDome doesn't know enough about the problem... but it seems to me like a data: url would be very similar to a javascript: url
  175. # [08:29] <othermaciej> I think there are complications
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  177. # [08:29] <othermaciej> weinig and I drew it up on the whiteboard
  178. # [08:29] <othermaciej> hi weinig
  179. # [08:29] <weinig> hi othermaciej
  180. # [08:30] <weinig> what did we draw?
  181. # [08:30] <MacDome> weinig: perfect timing!
  182. # [08:30] <weinig> :)
  183. # [08:30] <MacDome> weinig: we were just discussing http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16968 and why we deny all data: url access
  184. # [08:30] <othermaciej> weinig: I was explaining why we ended up with a no-access policy for data: URLs
  185. # [08:30] <weinig> ah
  186. # [08:30] <othermaciej> MacDome: we actually tried to have something more generous, one reason we backed of was Firefox denying all access to/from data: URLs
  187. # [08:31] <MacDome> the opera guys who wrote those tests seem to assume that a js generated iframe with a data: url SVG document contents should be accessible
  188. # [08:31] <MacDome> but it would be easy to rewrite the test to use separate files
  189. # [08:31] <othermaciej> or, ironically, a javascript: URL would work
  190. # [08:31] <othermaciej> no, wait, ti wouldn't
  191. # [08:32] <othermaciej> you can't use 'em for svg
  192. # [08:32] <othermaciej> they are assumed text/html w/ a string result
  193. # [08:32] * othermaciej eats his chicken soup
  194. # [08:32] <weinig> yum
  195. # [08:33] <MacDome> well, weinig, one of you two should comment in the bug, to motivate hixie to change the test :)
  196. # [08:41] <othermaciej> I don't think any qualifying spec defines the security policy so you could certainly claim the test as written is not justified by specs
  197. # [08:41] <othermaciej> (HTML5 does define the security policy, but I don't recall what it says about special cases for data:, javascript: and about: URIs)
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  200. # [09:04] <hsivonen> I find it interesting that the IE version switch syntax gets announced on ALA instead of the IE blog
  201. # [09:06] <takkaria> my reaction that article, I think, is "ew"
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  206. # [09:08] <takkaria> and being able to set it as a HTTP header is horrible from a save-to-disk perspective
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  208. # [09:19] <roc> from an implementation point of view, it seems to me they're making life very hard for themselves
  209. # [09:19] <jwalden> hsivonen: I'm cynically not surprised, except that I'd have expected the blog post much later so people would blow their tops on a site other than the IE blog
  210. # [09:19] <jwalden> this is only an hour or two of difference
  211. # [09:32] <jwalden> anyone know whether Opera's implementing array extras, e.g. forEach and friends?
  212. # [09:41] <othermaciej> roc: they seem to be willing to ship as many separate engines as it takes
  213. # [09:41] <othermaciej> in some ways, that is easier than carefully navigating between the rocks of standards and compatibility
  214. # [09:42] <othermaciej> changing the IE user agent string would probably be the best way to dodge the compat legacy
  215. # [09:42] <othermaciej> for the public web
  216. # [09:42] <othermaciej> but it would kill them on IE-only intranet sites
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  219. # [09:48] <hsivonen> othermaciej: Intranet Explorer could have a different UA string for an admin-set intranet zone
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  224. # [10:11] <virtuelv_> sigh
  225. # [10:11] <virtuelv_> (I'm reading a list apart)
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  229. # [10:21] <roc> othermaciej: shipping many separate "engines" isn't easy
  230. # [10:21] * Joins: arve__ (n=virtuelv@65.80-202-82.nextgentel.com)
  231. # [10:21] <roc> there's footprint
  232. # [10:22] <roc> which components are separated? layout presumably. style system? DOM? JS engine?
  233. # [10:22] <othermaciej> roc: clearly it's not what I would choose as a strategy, given the choice
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  235. # [10:22] <roc> different versions have to interact due to iframes etc
  236. # [10:22] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@65.80-202-82.nextgentel.com)
  237. # [10:23] <roc> you still have to fix crasher and security bugs in each version
  238. # [10:23] <roc> the burden gets heavier and heavier with each release
  239. # [10:23] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  240. # [10:26] <mpt> Like successive editions of the Oxford English Dictionary
  241. # [10:26] <roc> mmm, thinking about security just makes me queasy
  242. # [10:26] <roc> talk about attack surface
  243. # [10:26] <mpt> each of them trying to include all words that have been used in the history of Modern English
  244. # [10:27] <roc> well
  245. # [10:28] <roc> it's more like each edition has to include a complete copy of the previous edition, plus all the words currently in use
  246. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> we should eliminate all the useless words from English
  247. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> make them non-conformant for authors
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  249. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> reduce the complexity of the spec
  250. # [10:29] <takkaria> MikeSmith: isn't that pretty much what already happens?
  251. # [10:29] <roc> I understand why they're doing what they're doing
  252. # [10:29] <takkaria> as in, their use is non-comformant, people still have to understand them
  253. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> takkaria - yeah, but that's mostly just through stupidity
  254. # [10:30] <roc> but it still seems non-viable for the long term
  255. # [10:30] <mpt> They're doing it because it'll make IE8 easier, and they won't be around when the developers of IE17 are cursing them.
  256. # [10:30] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@65.80-202-82.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  257. # [10:31] <roc> maybe they're betting that the Web is going to grind to a halt
  258. # [10:31] <roc> but they bet that before and lost
  259. # [10:31] <mpt> Well, the same compatibility factors would apply to successive versions of Silverlight, no?
  260. # [10:32] <mpt> or whatever the Hypercard du jour is
  261. # [10:32] <roc> I don't know what their compat plan for Silverlight is
  262. # [10:34] <roc> maybe they'll just do side-by-side; interaction between Silverlight versions is probably very limited
  263. # [10:34] <roc> mpt, are you still in Nelson?
  264. # [10:35] <roc> maybe MS has some magic technology that makes multiple engines easier than it looks
  265. # [10:36] <roc> but the only thing I can think of is some tool that stitches together common code to reduce footprint
  266. # [10:37] <jgraham> I would have thought the backwards compatibility problems for Silverlight would be relatively easy to solve since they can always define Silverline n+1 to be easy to implement in the Silverlight n codebase
  267. # [10:37] <roc> other way around?
  268. # [10:37] <mpt> roc, no, London
  269. # [10:38] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  270. # [10:38] <jgraham> I mean they can decide Silverlight n+1 will only have features that they can implement easily given their existing Silverlight n code
  271. # [10:38] * Joins: Camaban (n=adrianle@81.133.245.5)
  272. # [10:38] <roc> ah yes, sure.
  273. # [10:39] * Joins: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  274. # [10:39] <mpt> jgraham, yeah, but then Silvernight n+m would become unreasonably complicated with all its inherited quirks (similar to how de-facto-HTML would have become in the absence of HTML5, and to some extent is even in HTML5)
  275. # [10:40] <mpt> Any language is subject to exactly the same dynamics, I think
  276. # [10:40] <annevk> hmm, the anti-competitive, infinite amount of quirks mode switches, has been announced, bah
  277. # [10:40] <mpt> whether markup, programming, or human
  278. # [10:40] <jgraham> mpt: Perhaps. (How) has Flash managed to avoid the issue?
  279. # [10:40] <mpt> jgraham, it's too soon to say. ;-)
  280. # [10:41] <mpt> Flash is half the age of HTML
  281. # [10:41] <roc> annevk: why anti-compeitive?
  282. # [10:41] <roc> Flash does ship duplicate components of some stuff
  283. # [10:43] <annevk> of sites start to rely on this behavior we have to emulate it, but hopefully not
  284. # [10:43] <jgraham> annevk: it kind of seems like they've taken the least-bad approach
  285. # [10:43] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@65.80-202-82.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  286. # [10:43] <jgraham> from our point of view
  287. # [10:44] <annevk> but i'd expect for intranets it's definitely anti-competitive
  288. # [10:49] <takkaria> annevk: given that more people are using other browsers than IE thesedays, I would hope that it shouldn't make too much of a difference
  289. # [10:50] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  290. # [10:50] <hsivonen> oops. I forgot to announce the new HTML parser release
  291. # [10:52] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  292. # [10:52] <roc> I think we don't track IE quirks closely enough for this tag to matter
  293. # [10:52] <hsivonen> are people going to XTech this year?
  294. # [10:55] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  295. # [10:58] <annevk> i was hoping to
  296. # [10:58] * Quits: kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  297. # [11:00] <takkaria> grr. anyone know how to disable the new security certificate warnings in firefox3?
  298. # [11:01] <Philip`> Fixed the security certificates?
  299. # [11:01] <Philip`> Uh
  300. # [11:01] <Philip`> Fix the security certificates?
  301. # [11:01] <takkaria> not my server, but it's not letting me check my webmail as a result
  302. # [11:02] <Philip`> Oh
  303. # [11:02] <takkaria> googling doesn't seem to give me much in the way of help, but persevence may be the key
  304. # [11:02] * Philip` knows little about it
  305. # [11:11] <jgraham> takkaria: Which version, exactly? I thought they added a "Add to whitelist" type button recently, but it might have been after the last beta
  306. # [11:14] <jgraham> hsivonen: re:XTech I suspect not, but I'm not really sure yet
  307. # [11:17] * Philip` wonders what happens if he sends two X-UA-Compatible HTTP headers for a page
  308. # [11:17] <hsivonen> I won't be presenting and haven't arranged funding, so I'm most likely not going to XTech
  309. # [11:18] <hsivonen> Philip`: see, that's wrong with the mindset on this channel. constantly breaking things with edge cases. :-)
  310. # [11:18] <takkaria> jgraham: beta 2
  311. # [11:20] <roc> Philip`: the latest trunk builds have a way to get around it
  312. # [11:21] <Philip`> roc: Do you mean "takkaria: "?
  313. # [11:21] <roc> er sorry yes
  314. # [11:23] * Philip` also wonders about <meta http-equiv=x-ua-compatible content=ie8> and <meta http-equiv=x-ua-compatible content=IE=8;IE=7> and hopes Microsoft will define this properly somewhere
  315. # [11:26] <takkaria> I think you're a little too hopeful there
  316. # [11:26] <annevk> how do DOCTYPEs and x-ua-compatible work together?
  317. # [11:27] <annevk> can you trigger standards mode without the DOCTYPE?
  318. # [11:29] * hsivonen notes that http-equiv=x-ua-compatible is invalid as HTML5 given the current draft
  319. # [11:30] <annevk> good
  320. # [11:32] <Philip`> The HTTP header isn't invalid for HTML5, though
  321. # [11:32] <takkaria> I wonder if IE8 will do XHTML and if it will, how that will interact with the meta tag
  322. # [11:46] <Philip`> I guess we'll just have to wait for a (beta?) release and reverse-engineer it
  323. # [11:49] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  324. # [12:18] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  325. # [12:19] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-5-117.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  326. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> Is it me, or does it seem kind of odd that the Web Standards Project didn't reckon it was worth having a real public discussion about this before they cooked it up?
  327. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> [[
  328. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> Microsoft reached out to The Web Standards Project (of which I am a member) and to several other standards-aware developers, and asked for our help in coming up with a better method of allowing developers to “opt in” to proper standards support. The goal was to find a method that was more explicit than the DOCTYPE switch, and could be implemented in any browser, not just IE.
  329. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> ]]
  330. # [12:21] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  331. # [12:21] <annevk> they were probably all made to sign nda's and happily obliged so they could get a paid visit to MS
  332. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> So they have a discussion about it behind closed doors and the best they can come up with it meta@http-equiv
  333. # [12:22] <annevk> it's just insane that the group that advocated Acid2 now lets MS get away with not supporting it
  334. # [12:22] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-5-117.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  335. # [12:22] <MikeSmith> something they were well aware was not conformant with the current HTML5 spec
  336. # [12:22] <annevk> i doubt wasp is aware of html5 in so much detail
  337. # [12:22] <takkaria> I wonder if we'll have a round of "WaSP is dead to me" posts now
  338. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> [[
  339. # [12:23] <annevk> so far all the standardistas are advocating this insanity
  340. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> We considered many syntax options, including a conditional comment-like syntax, processing instructions a la the XML prolog, and even HTML profiles such as those adopted by the Microformats community, but few seemed to fit the job as well as the meta element.
  341. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> ]]
  342. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> what advantages does meta@http-equiv have over a PI?
  343. # [12:23] <annevk> they apparently never thought about whether this is the right solution
  344. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> a real brain trust
  345. # [12:24] <annevk> i'm so amazed Eric Meyer suggests that this would lead browsers to introduce new features faster
  346. # [12:24] <annevk> if anything, it's the exact opposite of that
  347. # [12:25] <annevk> having to test features in various modes increases the amount of work quadratically (maybe a bit less)
  348. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> aside from discussion about whether it's a good idea or not, it'll be interesting to hear their rationale for the choice of meta@equiv over the alternatives
  349. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> particuarly the alternative of just using a PI
  350. # [12:26] <annevk> PI doesn't work in HTML
  351. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> a specific PI would
  352. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> for their browser
  353. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> concern about making it implementable by other browsers seems like not particularly important
  354. # [12:28] <annevk> that would be even less compatible with the HTML language though
  355. # [12:29] <annevk> I think they did have that concern is they're trying to get other browsers to join this crazyness
  356. # [12:29] <annevk> see the various examples in the Alist Apart article about ="IE7;FF3"
  357. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> yeah, well, having a unilateral decision made about it ahead of time
  358. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> that's doesn't seem likely to motivate other browser vendors to support
  359. # [12:31] <annevk> it's a good thing that IE doesn't have its 90% market share anymore
  360. # [12:32] <annevk> that would've made this even worse
  361. # [12:32] <annevk> but it's still pretty bad
  362. # [12:38] <Camaban> I'm hoping that at the very least, everyone else ignores it
  363. # [12:39] <annevk> afaict that's pretty much guaranteed as far as earlier statements of Safari, Mozilla, and Opera representatives count
  364. # [12:39] <annevk> regarding this subject
  365. # [12:39] <annevk> but please do tell if anyone is reconsidering their position
  366. # [12:40] <Camaban> good, I'm not keen on seeing things borked in Opera because someone couldn't be arsed testing in it, and gave it some default old rendering version to use
  367. # [12:41] <Philip`> The real problem is that Opera and Safari don't have nice short acronyms, unlike IE and FF/Fx
  368. # [12:41] <Camaban> lol
  369. # [12:42] <Philip`> (Calling them "S" and "O" just sounds stupid)
  370. # [12:42] <Camaban> not to mention Opera mini/mobile/wii
  371. # [12:42] <Philip`> and also there's the problem that SeaMonkey and Camino would be unhappy with "FF3"
  372. # [12:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I wrote preper docs for &out=gnu: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_GNU_Output
  373. # [12:44] <Philip`> (Will other Trident browsers/embedders have to make use of the "IE7" flags too?)
  374. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - looks great
  375. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> you might want to add a link to http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Errors
  376. # [12:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oops. yeah
  377. # [12:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: fixed
  378. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - cool. So I hope some other people will try this with URIs and test the error messages with Emacs or whatever
  379. # [12:47] * Philip` doesn't like C code with ^L control characters in it
  380. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> so that I don't have to :)
  381. # [12:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I guess I should add support for this format to html5check.py
  382. # [12:48] <Lachy> damn, that ALA article about IE's bug mode switch is sad.
  383. # [12:49] <Lachy> especially at the end where he says "I, for one, hope other browser vendors join Microsoft in implementing this functionality." - that would be a complete disaster and I hope no other browsers resort to it
  384. # [12:50] <Camaban> Lachy: I kind of think Meyer's article is worse. Starting off going WTF like everyone else, and then seemingly arguing in favour of it (with reservations)
  385. # [12:50] <hsivonen> Lachy: there seems to be a notable disconnect between how ALA-famous designers and how people close to browser vendors see this issue
  386. # [12:51] <Camaban> hsivonen: or people who actually believed in the idea of browser sniffing being bad the first time
  387. # [12:52] <Lachy> where's Meyer's article?
  388. # [12:52] <Camaban> it's the 2nd of this weeks ala articles
  389. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - having it supported in html5check.py would certainly seem to make a lot of sense :)
  390. # [12:53] <Camaban> I've only very briefly scanned it, but it seems he goes from WTF to kind of supporting it in the space of one article
  391. # [12:53] * Quits: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  392. # [12:54] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  393. # [12:54] <Lachy> I'll have to read Eric's later. I'm going to have to write a rebuttal against the technique later and explain why it's a really bad idea and needs to be used as a temporary work around only
  394. # [12:55] <Lachy> and why no other browser should ever implement it
  395. # [12:55] <Philip`> It would be good to suggest a better idea too
  396. # [12:57] <Lachy> I have suggested a better idea before. Use the bug mode switch for HTML4/XHTML1 DOCTYPES, and always use full standards mode with the HTML5 DOCTYPE
  397. # [12:57] <Camaban> I'm slightly apathetic about that, MS got themselves into this situation by doing things badly before, now they want us to bail them out
  398. # [12:57] <Camaban> though as a front end coder, I do have a vested interest in IE getting it's act together I guess
  399. # [12:58] <Lachy> that allows MS to use the time it will take to transition from HTML4 to HTML5 in order to get IE on par with other browsers and then allow for progressive enhancement
  400. # [12:58] <hsivonen> Lachy: if you suggest that, you need a plausible story why IE8 to IE9 with the HTML5 doctype already around the Web wouldn't cause a situation similar to IE6 to IE7
  401. # [12:58] <Camaban> I'm not convinced I want to use HTML5 yet, so please don't go suggesting borking HTMl4 and XHTML1
  402. # [12:59] <Lachy> unfortunately, we need to discourage wide adoption of the HTML5 DOCTYPE until IE is ready for it
  403. # [12:59] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes, indeed. ( http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/#html5 )
  404. # [13:03] <Lachy> Aaron's article didn't mention that unknown doctypes incl. <!DOCTYPE html> would make the meta redundant for IE8. I wonder if that was a strategic decision to avoid encouraging early adoption
  405. # [13:05] <hsivonen> Lachy: if it was a strategic decision, what's the strategy behind announcing the meta before shipping IE8 beta?
  406. # [13:07] <Lachy> hsivonen, I have no idea
  407. # [13:11] <Lachy> so how will this affect Acid3? As a matter of principle, I hope Hixie doesn't add the meta element, but that means IE will never support it as-is
  408. # [13:11] <madmoose> Nor acid2.
  409. # [13:11] <Lachy> indeed
  410. # [13:11] <madmoose> Despite their claims to the contrary.
  411. # [13:15] <annevk> it should affect acid3 as much as acid2
  412. # [13:18] <Philip`> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fromswitchestotargets - "If a page doesn’t have any version-targting information, then the DOCTYPE will be used as a proxy for version targeting. For example, all the HTML4 and XHTML1 DOCTYPEs will be targeted to IE7 by default. In the future, HTML5 DOCTYPEs might by default be targeted to IE9 or IE10, depending on how things shake out."
  413. # [13:21] <Philip`> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"> is used little enough that maybe it could be not included in the list of "HTML4 and XHTML1 DOCTYPEs", and so Acid2 would get handled differently
  414. # [13:21] <gsnedders> wow. so much has happened last night.
  415. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> gsnedders - you pinged me here yesterday but I was away
  416. # [13:24] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: in #html-wg, did I not?
  417. # [13:24] <gsnedders> I saw there, but I pinged you here as well?
  418. # [13:24] <gsnedders> I can't remember :)
  419. # [13:27] <MikeSmith> gsnedders - I guess it was on #html-wg mayve
  420. # [13:27] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I saw your response, though
  421. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> oh, OK
  422. # [13:53] <Philip`> Does anyone happen to have a mechanism for automatically detecting browsers' doctype-sniffing behaviours on various inputs?
  423. # [14:02] <annevk> I have one but it doesn't work in IE
  424. # [14:02] <annevk> http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/parsing/doctype/001.htm
  425. # [14:02] <Philip`> Ah, thanks, but IE is the more interesting case to test :-)
  426. # [14:03] <annevk> my IE doesn't let itself easily debug
  427. # [14:04] <Philip`> In IE6 I get a mixture of Errors and Quirks Mode
  428. # [14:05] <annevk> yeah, me to
  429. # [14:05] <annevk> too
  430. # [14:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://about.validator.nu/html5check.py
  431. # [14:07] <hsivonen> Now we need someone to script emacs to pipe the current buffer to python html5check.py -geh
  432. # [14:15] <hsivonen> annevk: what's the implementation status of Method-Check using OPTIONS?
  433. # [14:24] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  434. # [14:29] <Philip`> <meta http-equiv="x-ua-compatible" content="ie=edge;ff=feist;o=guts">
  435. # [14:30] <Dashiva> funn
  436. # [14:30] <hsivonen> :-)
  437. # [14:31] <hsivonen> am I the only one who thinks using = in the attribute value is a bad design choice?
  438. # [14:31] <krijnh> Why can't IE8 just use the HTML5 doctype as a switch and replace IE with MSIE in conditional comments and move on?
  439. # [14:32] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  440. # [14:32] <Dashiva> krijnh: Because they're committed to an incomplete implementation, so they'd need a new switch for IE9
  441. # [14:32] <Philip`> hsivonen: Why do you think that?
  442. # [14:32] <krijnh> <!--[if IE]> would just become <!--[if IEnewandimproved]>
  443. # [14:33] <krijnh> Dashiva: all browsers have that issue, why can't they just ship and keep updating/bug fixing
  444. # [14:34] <Dashiva> krijnh: That's what everyone else is wondering too
  445. # [14:34] <krijnh> Then what is everyone else missing?
  446. # [14:35] <hsivonen> Philip`: see what happened with charset= when people omitted quotes
  447. # [14:35] <Philip`> People build big complex fragile intranet applications on IE6; they don't build such things on Firefox or Opera or Safari
  448. # [14:35] <Philip`> which seems like a significant difference
  449. # [14:35] <hsivonen> krijnh: Boeing, Chevron, etc.
  450. # [14:36] <krijnh> They can still do that, don't they?
  451. # [14:36] <krijnh> Just use the same doctypes we use now, same conditional comments, if needed
  452. # [14:36] <krijnh> IE8 should of course still include IE6/7 engines, that's pretty logical
  453. # [14:37] <Dashiva> But they probably want people to make big complex fragile intranet applications in IE8 too
  454. # [14:37] <krijnh> You can already do amazingly complex things in IE6/7
  455. # [14:37] <krijnh> Just not using standards :)
  456. # [14:38] <hsivonen> krijnh: if the same intranet has insanely complex stuff depending on IE 5.5, IE 7 and IE 8, switching to Firefox, Safari or Opera will be even harder
  457. # [14:39] <Dashiva> Please note the topic, common sense doesn't work. You have to consider business sense
  458. # [14:39] <krijnh> Why should you switch to a non-MS UA in an intranet
  459. # [14:40] <krijnh> Dashiva: I know, but I don't get it from that point either :)
  460. # [14:40] <hsivonen> krijnh: say you wan to upgrade from Windows XP to Ubuntu?
  461. # [14:40] <krijnh> hsivonen: and I'm in a huge corporation, where intranets apply?
  462. # [14:40] <krijnh> With sysadmins and stuff
  463. # [14:41] <krijnh> I think I'm not really into switching to Ubuntu then
  464. # [14:41] <hsivonen> krijnh: some corporations are into switching to RedHat, though
  465. # [14:41] <hsivonen> or SuSE
  466. # [14:42] <Camaban> some run a lot of mac's, and IE/mac is hardly useful anymore
  467. # [14:42] <krijnh> Yeah, well then they shouldn't have bought or developed IE only intranet apps
  468. # [14:43] <krijnh> I'm fine with a meta thing for IE, I just don't get why Fx and Opera also should be included
  469. # [14:43] <Camaban> so as to make it look like a generic internet thing, rather than jsut catering to IE's failings?
  470. # [14:44] <krijnh> We're catering to IEs failings every day
  471. # [14:44] <krijnh> Why should that be different in the near future? :)
  472. # [14:45] <annevk> hsivonen, it will be in Firefox 3 as i understand it
  473. # [14:45] * Camaban shrugs
  474. # [14:45] <krijnh> That's the perfect world we live in, no?
  475. # [14:45] <Camaban> at the moment I generally fix IE6 using liberal use of haslayout, other than that, I don't get 'too' many problems
  476. # [14:46] <krijnh> Me neither
  477. # [14:46] <hsivonen> annevk: have you seen it in the nightlies yet?
  478. # [14:46] <krijnh> Camaban: I just consider that part of our job
  479. # [14:46] <annevk> hsivonen, I hope Jonas is on top of it
  480. # [14:46] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  481. # [14:47] <Camaban> krijnh: it's only part of our job due to IE's previous failings
  482. # [14:47] <Camaban> between IE6 and 7, Opera released 4 major versions
  483. # [14:47] <krijnh> Camaban: I know, we'll have to live with that
  484. # [14:48] <Camaban> if MS are now struggling with how to update their browser, while not screwing up the stuff that their old software did, I'm thinking that's their issue, not somehting to be used to lump us with extra restrictions
  485. # [14:48] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  486. # [14:48] <Camaban> the reason for HTMl specs in the first place is so that this kind of thing shouldn't be our job
  487. # [14:49] <krijnh> We wouldn't have a job in a perfect world..
  488. # [14:49] <annevk> hsivonen, if you could push them as well that would be appreciated
  489. # [14:49] <annevk> hsivonen, btw, as seen on public-appformats we may need to change the Access-Control header slightly
  490. # [14:49] <Camaban> oh we would, there's plenty in web development beyond getting a site to work cross browser
  491. # [14:50] <krijnh> In a perfect world there wouldn't be browsers ;)
  492. # [14:50] <krijnh> Anyway
  493. # [14:51] <annevk> in a perfect world humanity wouldn't exist
  494. # [14:51] <hsivonen> annevk: I'll ask sicking
  495. # [14:51] <annevk> cool
  496. # [14:51] <annevk> perfect world arguments are kind of silly
  497. # [14:51] <Camaban> and as Opera/Mozila etc... have managed to do fairly well in the last few years, wanting IE to match them in terms of support is hardly requesting a perfect world
  498. # [14:55] <hsivonen> does someone have a WHATWG blog post about the W3C WD drafted?
  499. # [14:55] <Lachy> hsivonen, I don't
  500. # [14:55] <hsivonen> what about a Slashdot submission?
  501. # [14:56] <Lachy> I could submit to slashdot
  502. # [14:56] <Lachy> what time is the spec going live?
  503. # [14:57] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
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  505. # [15:12] <annevk> interesting
  506. # [15:12] <annevk> WaSP will host Acid3: http://www.webstandards.org/2008/01/16/whats-the-best-test-for-acid3/
  507. # [15:12] <annevk> Lachy, in theory 5PM your time
  508. # [15:13] <Lachy> ok, I'll do it as soon as the press release is published
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  513. # [15:59] <Philip`> Hmph, Opera doesn't call onload for iframes if I have lots of them :-(
  514. # [16:01] <Philip`> Oh, actually, that was because I had infinitely recursing iframes
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  516. # [16:10] <krijnh> Ow, wait, it's almost April 1 ...
  517. # [16:11] <krijnh> annevk: nice post
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  521. # [16:17] <zcorpan_> Hixie: ping
  522. # [16:23] <Philip`> <!doctype html 2> = quirks, <!doctype html 1> = standards
  523. # [16:23] <Philip`> (in IE)
  524. # [16:24] <Philip`> (<!doctype html 5> = standards too - you're just not allowed 2, 3 or 4)
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  526. # [16:27] <zcorpan_> <!doctype dtd html 4.>
  527. # [16:29] <zcorpan_> <!doctype dtd html 4. transitional//>
  528. # [16:30] <Philip`> <!doctype transitional// dtd html 4.>
  529. # [16:30] <Philip`> (It just does substring matches)
  530. # [16:33] <Philip`> <!doctype netsc dtd xhtml> vs <!doctype netsc dtd html>
  531. # [16:33] * Philip` wants to find a good way to work out which order it's doing the substring comparisons in
  532. # [16:36] <Philip`> Oh, that's trivial for pairs
  533. # [16:54] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) ("Verlassend")
  534. # [16:56] <Lachy> MikeSmith, is everything still on schedule to publish in the next 5 minutes?
  535. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> Lachy - roughly
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  538. # [17:02] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/docs/quirks.txt
  539. # [17:04] <Philip`> I don't think that's entirely complete, but I don't know any cases it's wrong on
  540. # [17:04] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  541. # [17:04] <annevk> HTML5 is published
  542. # [17:04] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
  543. # [17:04] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/
  544. # [17:04] <annevk> we can party now
  545. # [17:05] <krijnh> Congrats :)
  546. # [17:05] <jdandrea> w00t!
  547. # [17:07] <mpt> awesome
  548. # [17:09] <Philip`> (Argh, it's more complex with some " Frameset//" bits...)
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  553. # [17:12] * mpt wonders if there should be a "roughshod" content model for <ins>, <del>, and <m>
  554. # [17:13] * Lachy submitted it to slashdot
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  561. # [17:14] <annevk> oh, who's doing the WHATWG blog entry?
  562. # [17:15] <annevk> "Moments ago the join effort of the W3C HTML WG and WHATWG resulted in publication of two documents in the W3C Technical Report space: ... and ..."
  563. # [17:15] <Lachy> maybe hsivonen?
  564. # [17:15] <Lachy> if not, you can.
  565. # [17:16] <hsivonen> I just submitted to Slashdot.
  566. # [17:17] <annevk> ok, i'll try
  567. # [17:17] <Philip`> annevk: http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/parsing/doctype/001.htm has some DOCYTPEs
  568. # [17:17] <hsivonen> that would be nice. afk
  569. # [17:17] <Lachy> hsivonen, I told you I would (and did already)
  570. # [17:17] <Lachy> oh well
  571. # [17:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: I was following the wrong channel, so I didn't notice you were on the case.
  572. # [17:18] * Parts: jdandrea (n=jdandrea@24.228.42.231)
  573. # [17:19] <hsivonen> well, having two entries in the pipeline doesn't hurt
  574. # [17:19] * Joins: jdandrea (n=jdandrea@24.228.42.231)
  575. # [17:19] <hsivonen> afk for real
  576. # [17:19] <annevk> bye
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  580. # [17:24] <annevk> Lachy, you can publish drafts right?
  581. # [17:24] <annevk> I submitted something for review
  582. # [17:25] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  583. # [17:27] <annevk> "The WHATWG version of this specification is available under a more permissive license." is interesting
  584. # [17:28] <jgraham_mibbit> annevk: in your blog post s/join/joint/
  585. # [17:29] <jgraham_mibbit> You should probably repeat the bit about it being a FPWD in the body too because people don't read titles
  586. # [17:30] <annevk> kk
  587. # [17:30] <annevk> can you allow me to post?
  588. # [17:31] <annevk> euhm, i can't find the post I drafted anymore
  589. # [17:32] <jgraham_mibbit> Dunno. I thought I could post without review before but maybe I was mistaken
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  593. # [17:33] <jgraham_mibbit> http://blog.whatwg.org/wp-admin/post.php?action=edit&post=131
  594. # [17:33] <jgraham_mibbit> I think
  595. # [17:34] <hsivonen> I wonder if we are going to make it to the digg front page
  596. # [17:34] <annevk> made some changes
  597. # [17:34] <annevk> if someone can press publish, allow me to publish, etc. that would be cool
  598. # [17:35] <hsivonen> annevk: I can press publish
  599. # [17:35] <annevk> ok, i think it's ready now
  600. # [17:36] <annevk> so go ahead :)
  601. # [17:36] <hsivonen> I already pressed the button. did I do it too early?
  602. # [17:36] <hsivonen> the blog is already slow
  603. # [17:37] <annevk> seems to be there now, sorry
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  605. # [17:38] <annevk> it has an awesome long URI
  606. # [17:38] <annevk> oops
  607. # [17:38] <tndH> the tags got eaten in Lachy's /. post, at least on http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=480454
  608. # [17:38] <tndH> though i suppose that's why /. has editors ;)
  609. # [17:38] <virtuelv> draft now public?
  610. # [17:39] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/html-5-published-as-w3c-first-public-working-draft
  611. # [17:39] <annevk> maybe I should translate it to Dutch
  612. # [17:39] <krijnh> Yeah :)
  613. # [17:40] <annevk> and everyone here who knows another language than English should do the same so we have a lot of national announcements available on the WHATWG blog
  614. # [17:40] <virtuelv> http://reddit.com/r/programming/info/668qq/details/
  615. # [17:50] * Philip` wishes he could set Gmail to never put WHATWG messages into the Spam folder
  616. # [17:54] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.91.226)
  617. # [17:55] <annevk> zcorpan_, I have a hard time understanding how your ignoring is different from mine
  618. # [18:04] <zcorpan_> http://digg.com/design/W3C_HTML5_draft_published_2
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  623. # [18:16] * gsnedders wonders if the IE team will still be alive tomorrow
  624. # [18:16] * jgraham_mibbit wonders why they wouldn't be
  625. # [18:16] <Camaban> depends if they can run faster than the WaSP team
  626. # [18:17] <Philip`> That won't help them, since wasps can fly
  627. # [18:17] <annevk> hmm, I get e-mails for comments on my WHATWG blog post?
  628. # [18:17] <annevk> and I can't seem to disable that
  629. # [18:19] <Lachy_> My post got accepted to slashdot, should be published soon
  630. # [18:27] <gsnedders> Lachy_: what post?
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  639. # [19:02] * MacDomeSleep is now known as MacDome
  640. # [19:07] <Philip`> Rather than <meta>, I think IE should look for a <img src="iexplore.gif" alt="Best viewed in IE $n!"> and fall back to the appropriate rendering mode
  641. # [19:10] <gsnedders> :D
  642. # [19:16] * Joins: cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206)
  643. # [19:26] <hsivonen> yay. Lachy's post on slashdot's front page
  644. # [19:30] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  645. # [19:34] <annevk> html5-diff is not updated though
  646. # [19:34] <annevk> it's a fpwd too
  647. # [19:34] <annevk> oh well
  648. # [19:41] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  649. # [19:44] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.ca/868809 if anyone wants to read over it (and bug me about it making no sense)
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  655. # [20:02] <Lachy_> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/01/22/175243
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  658. # [20:04] <takkaria> Lachy_: nice to see people missing the point so earlyon
  659. # [20:05] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  660. # [20:05] <jdandrea> I don't even think they really read it. I think those commenters just like to hear themselves complain.
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  663. # [20:20] <zcorpan_> hmm. the ie8 meta tag should, for reasonable compat with other browsers, only have an effect if the page has a doctype that triggers full standards mode in other browsers
  664. # [20:20] <zcorpan_> i.e. no doctype and quirky doctypes override the meta
  665. # [20:21] <zcorpan_> otherwise pages start to use the ie8 meta with no doctype and expect standards mode
  666. # [20:22] <Hixie> i expect, in 5 years, to see a large number of pages say <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge" />
  667. # [20:22] <Hixie> (though i expect a majority not to have the flag at all)
  668. # [20:22] <zcorpan_> right
  669. # [20:22] <zcorpan_> at which point they might be tempted to introduce a new switch mechanism
  670. # [20:23] <Ketsuban> I expect <!--[if IE]><meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge"><![endif--> and <!--[if IE]><meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge" /><![endif--> depending on DOCTYPE. =P
  671. # [20:23] <Ketsuban> <![endif]-->*
  672. # [20:24] <zcorpan_> why the cc?
  673. # [20:24] <Ketsuban> Because it's a pointless piece of code if other UAs don't implement it.
  674. # [20:24] <Philip`> To hide it from HTML5 validators
  675. # [20:25] <zcorpan_> people don't hide <meta noimagetoolbar> with cc
  676. # [20:25] <Ketsuban> I'd love it if other UAs had conditional comments too - if I had a penny for every time I've wanted <!--[if Opera]>...<![endif]--> I'd be richer than I am.
  677. # [20:26] <zcorpan_> if you file a bug everytime you wanted a cc for opera, perhaps you wouldn't need it anymore :)
  678. # [20:27] <zcorpan_> (i.e. not about the lack of cc, but for the reason you want to use a cc)
  679. # [20:27] <Ketsuban> I do file bugs, but that's only a future fix for any problems, and sometimes the problem I've run into is an undefined or ambiguous case in the specification. :P
  680. # [20:27] <Philip`> Ketsuban: Use <![CDATA[ stuff that only Opera should display ]]> and it'll be an invisible comment in Firefox :-)
  681. # [20:28] <zcorpan_> that doesn't work if what you want to include contains >
  682. # [20:29] <Ketsuban> At any rate what I have now works in Firefox and IE7, should work in Opera 9.5, works in Opera 9.25 with the exception of the known quantisation error for values > 20.47em, probably works in Safari and Konqueror but hasn't been tested.
  683. # [20:29] <Philip`> zcorpan_: It does work, as long as it doesn't contain a > after two more ]s than [s
  684. # [20:29] <zcorpan_> Philip`: > will truncate the comment in firefox
  685. # [20:30] <Philip`> Oh
  686. # [20:30] <Philip`> Good point :-)
  687. # [20:31] <zcorpan_> furthermore you can't use markup in cdata, which makes it not very interesting even if it didn't truncate the comment in fx
  688. # [20:31] <zcorpan_> (and you can't use cdata sections in <script> or <style>, either)
  689. # [20:31] <Philip`> Okay, maybe it's not an absolutely perfect solution :-(
  690. # [20:32] <zcorpan_> works if you want to say "ZOMG i couldn't be bothered to test in opera" :)
  691. # [20:34] <Philip`> <![CDATA[ Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better browser. ]]>
  692. # [20:35] <Ketsuban> I already have a big ugly red <div> telling users of IE6 and below to upgrade to IE7. :P
  693. # [20:40] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@216.239.45.19)
  694. # [20:41] <Hixie> i wonder if the timing of the IE8 quirks mode switch was timed to match the release of html5
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  697. # [20:48] <jasonw22> is html5 support planned for ie8?
  698. # [20:50] <roc> It would be useful if there was some comment from Webkit people on the Safari blog about the new IE switch
  699. # [20:51] <Hixie> jasonw22: html5 likely won't be done by the time ie8 ships
  700. # [20:51] <Hixie> roc: i believe they are working on it, but i could be wrong
  701. # [20:51] <roc> cool
  702. # [20:51] <Hixie> othermaciej would know
  703. # [20:53] <jasonw22> Hixie, I guess I just didn't understand what you meant, "i wonder if the timing of the IE8 quirks mode switch was timed to match the release of html5"
  704. # [20:57] <hdh> he means the first W3C stamped WD
  705. # [21:01] <Hixie> right
  706. # [21:01] <Hixie> we released the first "public" working draft today
  707. # [21:02] <jasonw22> ah, got it
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  709. # [21:06] * Quits: jdandrea (n=jdandrea@24.228.42.231) ("ciao")
  710. # [21:06] <Hixie> holy crap, the html5 press release didn't once mention xhtml
  711. # [21:06] <Hixie> and only once mentioned xml
  712. # [21:09] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.ca/868809 — any comments?
  713. # [21:12] <roc> yeah. Just because there's not much wikipedia Theora content now doesn't mean there couldn't be in the future
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  715. # [21:14] <gsnedders> roc: people aren't going to create content unless decoders are widespread
  716. # [21:14] <roc> people with an agenda might
  717. # [21:14] <roc> NBC is going to stream Olympics footage via Silverlight, that's not widespread
  718. # [21:15] <gsnedders> So I have an agenda? I would only use a codec if I can rely on it being supported for the vast majority of my site's users
  719. # [21:15] <gsnedders> (and even then only a standardised codec)
  720. # [21:15] <Philip`> Hmm, now I can emulate IE's quirks-mode algorithm for the ~550 unique doctypes on ~15K pages, except for <!doctype html public "-//"AOL Hometown//html 3.0 transitional//en"> ...
  721. # [21:16] <roc> wasn't I clear?
  722. # [21:16] <Philip`> Oh, and that's just broken because it's got odd quotes, which I'm not trying to handle
  723. # [21:16] <roc> Microsoft has an agenda -> Microsoft pays content vendors to use Silverlight even though people have to download the viewer
  724. # [21:17] <roc> Wikipedia has an agenda -> publishes Theora content even though people have to download the viewer (actually though, they don't, the Java viewer is OK)
  725. # [21:17] <gsnedders> roc: I took the comments to be only partially related, and the former to be related to Theora too
  726. # [21:18] <Philip`> Does anyone happen to know why "strings -el mshtml.dll" shows "http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/strict.dtd" amongst a list of doctype-detection strings? As far as I can tell, it's not actually used for anything...
  727. # [21:18] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  728. # [21:21] <roc> so it doesn't follow that technical superiority is a cast-iron requirement. It's possible that Wikipedia and other sites might just start using Theora for ideological reasons and that could drive client vendors to support it.
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  730. # [21:26] <Philip`> Exception in thread "pool-1-thread-153" java.lang.StackOverflowError at java.util.regex.Pattern$Loop.match(Pattern.java:4179) at java.util.regex.Pattern$GroupTail.match(Pattern.java:4111) ...
  731. # [21:26] <Philip`> Hmm
  732. # [21:37] <Philip`> Oops, I was wrong about the AOL Hometown thing, that was just a bug in my code :-(
  733. # [21:38] <Philip`> I'm slightly sure that http://philip.html5.org/docs/quirks.txt is now correct
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  740. # [21:44] <webben> I'm vaguely remembering someone providing some stats about doctype distribution.
  741. # [21:44] <webben> I'm trying to put a rough figure on how much of the web depends on standards vs quirks mode.
  742. # [21:45] <Philip`> I can give you information about 15K pages from dmoz.org, and what proportion IE treats as standards vs quirks
  743. # [21:45] <jasonw22> http://ejohn.org/blog/meta-madness/
  744. # [21:49] <webben> Philip`: is that info online already or do you mean you'd need to run your tests?
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  746. # [21:54] <Philip`> webben: It's not online in a summarised form anywhere, but I've already got the data and can stick it in a table easily
  747. # [21:55] <webben> Philip`: Are you able to differentiate between IE7 and IE6 (e.g. for quirks mode triggered by XML prolog)?
  748. # [21:55] <webben> I'd be interested to see that :)
  749. # [21:57] <Philip`> webben: Hmm, I'd have to modify my code (which would be easy iff someone can say exactly what to change it to) and re-run it (which would take about thirty seconds), so it could be possible
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  751. # [22:00] <webben> Did they change anything about standards/quirks in IE7 other than not switching to quirks when there's an XML prolog?
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  753. # [22:03] <gsnedders> webben: nope
  754. # [22:03] <webben> Philip`: Any other info you'd need?
  755. # [22:04] <gsnedders> dunno if anything apart from XML prologs get through before it, though, FWIW
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  757. # [22:04] <Philip`> webben: I'll say nope too, and with more justification since I've just tried IE7 on a few hundred doctypes and it does the same as IE6
  758. # [22:04] <Philip`> (when considering just the part inside the <!doctype...> string)
  759. # [22:05] <Philip`> webben: It would be helpful to know what an XML prolog is
  760. # [22:05] <webben> hehe
  761. # [22:05] <webben> I see.
  762. # [22:05] <webben> How much stuff is that looks vaguely like an XML prolog, but isn't?
  763. # [22:05] <Philip`> Compare e.g. <?xml ""'?> vs <?xml "" '?>
  764. # [22:05] <webben> *is there
  765. # [22:05] <annevk> I think he meant XML declaration
  766. # [22:05] <gsnedders> is <?…?> an XML prolog
  767. # [22:05] <webben> oh
  768. # [22:05] <webben> yeah I mean the declaration
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  770. # [22:06] <webben> I think that is the prolog
  771. # [22:06] <webben> isn't the generic term processing instruction?
  772. # [22:06] <annevk> the XML prolog is everything up to including the DOCTYPE
  773. # [22:06] <webben> oh right, okay
  774. # [22:06] <annevk> well, everything until the root element start tag
  775. # [22:07] * gsnedders starts to correct annevk on that but gets beaten
  776. # [22:07] <Philip`> webben: http://philip.html5.org/data/pis.html is stuff that looks vaguely like an XML prolog or whatever it's called
  777. # [22:07] <annevk> webben, you're not the only one btw: http://www.google.com/search?q=xml+prolog+declaration
  778. # [22:07] <webben> gsnedders: Yeah, that's what the spec says: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-prolog-dtd
  779. # [22:09] * annevk curses BNF
  780. # [22:09] <webben> I see distinguishing doctype and prolog is an MSism: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb250496.aspx
  781. # [22:10] <webben> how /very/ helpful of them
  782. # [22:10] <Philip`> So... It looks like /^(\s|<\?xml [^>]*>)*$doctype/i is a reasonable approximation for what IE7 accepts
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  784. # [22:11] <Philip`> and $doctype is (?xi) <!doctype [^>\\s]* ( ( \\s+ | \"[^\"]*\" | '[^']*' ) [^>\\s]* )* > as exactly as I can make out
  785. # [22:11] <Philip`> Uh, but with the double-slashes unslashed
  786. # [22:11] <webben> Regular expressions: how to make anything instantly more confusing ;)
  787. # [22:11] <Philip`> and the slash-quotes unslashed too
  788. # [22:11] <annevk> if someone can convert all BNF in http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/ and tell me the result that would be cool :)
  789. # [22:12] <Philip`> I added whitespace to the doctype one for readabilty :-p
  790. # [22:12] <webben> annevk: convert it into what? Human?
  791. # [22:13] <Philip`> Hmm, actually, I think detecting IE7 vs IE6 would take too much time for me to bother with tonight, since I'd have to change all my string matching and everything
  792. # [22:14] <webben> fair enough ... it's worth knowing the difference (at least AFAI am concerned)
  793. # [22:15] <Philip`> I'll see if I can work on that during the day tomorrow
  794. # [22:16] <webben> awesome :)
  795. # [22:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=426306&cid=22143528
  796. # [22:17] <jgraham> lol
  797. # [22:18] <Philip`> Counting doctypes (not pages), I see 3598 IE-quirks, 4165 IE-standards
  798. # [22:19] <Philip`> and then something like 7-8K pages with no doctype being quirks
  799. # [22:19] <Philip`> so actually I do need to change all my string matching and everything before being able to get more useful numbers for that
  800. # [22:20] <Philip`> but still it'll be about half with no doctype, and half of the remainder with quirky doctype
  801. # [22:24] <webben> Philip`: interesting, thanks for that :)
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  803. # [22:29] <Philip`> webben: http://philip.html5.org/data/doctypes.txt is the individual counts, after replacing all whitespace by spaces so it displays better
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  806. # [22:34] <annevk> sorry, to ABNF
  807. # [22:34] <annevk> oops
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  809. # [22:43] <Philip`> http://www.zeldman.com/2008/01/22/in-defense-of-version-targeting/
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  815. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: "What's wrong with it?" — it belongs in 1999! :P
  816. # [22:53] <Hixie> well i agree it's a bit late, but there's not much i can do about that
  817. # [22:56] <gsnedders> sad that half the comments clearly haven't even read the PR yet alone the spec itself
  818. # [22:57] <inimino> congrats on WD publication, all
  819. # [22:58] <gsnedders> FWIW, for those who don't follow me on Twitter (i.e., most of you): "FPWD of HTML 5 published. Sometimes I wondered if this day would ever come."
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  822. # [23:00] <Hixie> you know, i'm amused
  823. # [23:00] <Hixie> when whatwg got slashdotted, the comments were quite positive
  824. # [23:01] <Hixie> e.g. last october when we published html5
  825. # [23:01] <Hixie> but now that the w3c gets slashdotted, the comments are quite negative
  826. # [23:01] <Hixie> i wonder if maybe we were better off without hte w3c stamp
  827. # [23:01] <ray> maybe you're better off not reading the slashdot comments :)
  828. # [23:02] <Dashiva> Well, there are also the comments saying "Finally Opera and Mozilla and Adobe will have to implementing standards" :)
  829. # [23:02] <Dashiva> *to start
  830. # [23:04] <gsnedders> life in the HTML WG is fun
  831. # [23:04] <Philip`> Has anybody actually told the HTML WG that the spec has been published now?
  832. # [23:05] <Hixie> oh btw, http://www.acidtests.org/
  833. # [23:05] <gsnedders> I don't think so, actually.
  834. # [23:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: lovin' the references thrown around the page :)
  835. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Hixie: how is "Content-Type" tested in Acid3?
  836. # [23:06] <othermaciej> roc: what sort of comment did you have in mind?
  837. # [23:06] <roc> I dunno
  838. # [23:06] <roc> whether you think it's a good idea
  839. # [23:06] <roc> whether you'll implement it
  840. # [23:06] <annevk> Hixie, nice
  841. # [23:06] <Hixie> gsnedders: several ways
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  844. # [23:06] <Hixie> gsnedders: mostly near <object>
  845. # [23:07] <roc> Aaron Gustafson said "I hope other browsers implement this!" so I think it's a good idea to let him know we won't
  846. # [23:11] <hdh> http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/01/ie8-versioning-mechanism.html label the ALA article as "WASP article"
  847. # [23:11] <Philip`> In IE: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cbody%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Edocument.createElement('bar')%3C%2Fscript%3E%0D%0A%3Cfoo%3Efoo%3C%2Ffoo%3E%0D%0A%3Cbar%3Ebar%3C%2Fbar%3E%0D%0A%3Cbaz%3Ebaz%3C%2Fbaz%3E%0D%0A
  848. # [23:12] <Philip`> <bar> gets parsed like a recognised element
  849. # [23:12] <Hixie> woah
  850. # [23:13] <Hixie> freaky
  851. # [23:13] <Philip`> (via http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/01/22/Best-Standards-Support#c1201006277 )
  852. # [23:13] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cbody%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Edocument.createElement('bar')%3C%2Fscript%3E%0D%0A%3Cfoo%3Efoo%3C%2Ffoo%3E%0D%0A%3Cbar%3Ebar%3C%2Fbar%3E%0D%0A%3Cbaz%3Ebaz%3C%2Fbaz%3E%0D%0A
  853. # [23:13] <Hixie> well well well
  854. # [23:13] <Hixie> this changes matters
  855. # [23:13] <annevk> you're not going to host the tests on acidtests.org?
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  857. # [23:16] <Hixie> acid3 probably will be
  858. # [23:16] <Philip`> <script>/* HTML5 compatibility toolkit */ document.createElement('section'); document.createElement('header'); ...</script>
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  860. # [23:18] <Hixie> Philip`: actually i'm not sure this really changes much at all, except that it means our life is going ot be way easier
  861. # [23:19] <Philip`> Also excanvas should just do a document.createElement('canvas') instead of its funny tree-reconstruction tricks
  862. # [23:19] * Philip` wonders why nobody knew about this before
  863. # [23:20] <Philip`> s/nobody/a very small though non-zero number of people/
  864. # [23:27] <othermaciej> roc: we usually say more what we *are* going to do (or more specifically what we already *have* done) than what we're not going to do, but I'll see if there is something useful to say
  865. # [23:27] <othermaciej> roc: has anyone from Mozilla posted on the topic?
  866. # [23:29] <othermaciej> roc: for what it's worth, unofficially, we want to stick to just quirks and standards mode and not lock in new modes
  867. # [23:29] <roc> yeah
  868. # [23:29] <roc> I posted
  869. # [23:29] <Philip`> No Dashboard compatibility mode?
  870. # [23:30] <roc> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/01/post_2.html
  871. # [23:30] <roc> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/01/slipping_the_ba.html
  872. # [23:30] <roc> it's not an official position, but Mozilla doesn't usually have official positions :-)
  873. # [23:31] <othermaciej> roc: and I think the whole thing is a bad idea, but I'm not sure publicly criticizing Microsoft's browser strategy is necessarily appropriate for the webkit blog
  874. # [23:31] <Philip`> Is "post_2" just what happens when you auto-URLify "<META HTTP-EQUIV="X-BALL-CHAIN">"? :-)
  875. # [23:31] <roc> something like that yeah
  876. # [23:31] <roc> othermaciej: I understand
  877. # [23:32] <roc> maybe a response in some other forum then
  878. # [23:32] <othermaciej> Philip`: we do also have the Dashboard quirks mode, but I hope that can be phased out because it sucks to have a mode that's not just anti-standards but also anti-web-compatibility
  879. # [23:33] <gsnedders> Dashboard quirks mode?
  880. # [23:33] <jacobolus> Philip`: is there any reason whatsoever for people to use a quirky doctype?
  881. # [23:33] <roc> I didn't really slam their strategy the way others are slamming it. I think it's dumb for them but hopefully it won't affect us too much if we just ignore it.
  882. # [23:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks for the pointer
  883. # [23:34] <jacobolus> Philip`: or do they just do it for fun?
  884. # [23:34] <Philip`> jacobolus: I'd assume (based on no evidence or experience) that most people copy and paste the quirky doctype from somewhere, without understanding what it's for
  885. # [23:35] <roc> but Microsoft and the ALA people were playing it up as some sort of generous cross-browser approach to compatibility and I think we should make it clear it's not
  886. # [23:35] <Philip`> jacobolus: but some people might legitimately want compatibility with IE5.5, so they need to make other browsers act as much like IE5.5 as possible, and they still want to use validators, so they use a quirky doctype
  887. # [23:36] <jacobolus> ah, validators. okay
  888. # [23:37] <gsnedders> They need some way to not break existing content, as so blatantly caused issues with naïve assumptions that all IE versions forever and ever will have the same bugs as happened with IE7
  889. # [23:37] <Philip`> jacobolus: I've got no idea if anybody actually uses that reason, though
  890. # [23:38] <jacobolus> Philip`: seems like that's a bug in the validator then though; it should just assume no doctype = quirks, no?
  891. # [23:38] <Philip`> jacobolus: The (W3C) validator doesn't know about quirks at all, so it couldn't assume something like that
  892. # [23:38] <jacobolus> Philip`: I guess it just seems surprising that ~half the pages with doctypes would have quirks doctypes, if that does nothing useful
  893. # [23:40] <jacobolus> so does adding quirks doctype do anything useful for the w3c validator? it just treats it the same as any doctype?
  894. # [23:41] <gsnedders> jacobolus: for the spec'd ones, yeah
  895. # [23:41] <Philip`> jacobolus: 98% of pages have <head> even though that does nothing useful (since it's optional and almost never has attributes)
  896. # [23:41] <jacobolus> fair enough :)
  897. # [23:41] <gsnedders> jacobolus: for the non-standards ones it throws an error
  898. # [23:42] <jacobolus> Philip`: but people are told to use <head>. Does anyone recommend using a quirks doctype?
  899. # [23:44] <jacobolus> don't bother answering that. :)
  900. # [23:45] <Philip`> jacobolus: People recommend using HTML4 Transitional, which is quirks
  901. # [23:46] <Philip`> though I've not seen anybody recommending <!DOCTYPE !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN\"> so that was presumably all down to the site's author
  902. # [23:50] <annevk> heh
  903. # [23:50] <jacobolus> :D
  904. # [23:50] <annevk> i got two comments on HTML5 by private e-mail
  905. # [23:50] <annevk> (from one person)
  906. # [23:50] <annevk> both were CSS requests
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  908. # Session Close: Wed Jan 23 00:00:00 2008

The end :)