/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-01-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jan 25 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:09] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/01/firefox-html5#comment-6433
  6. # [00:09] <annevk> <input type=date> styling in IE
  7. # [00:09] <Dashiva> Wow, that last mail about ogg really made me rethink everything said so far
  8. # [00:10] <Dashiva> The last PS of anti-microsoft paranoia really closed the deal
  9. # [00:19] <Hixie> "Can we make standards ISO compliant" -- isn't MPEG an ISO standard?
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  11. # [00:20] <Hixie> or at least ISO standards track?
  12. # [00:21] <dbloom> Moving Picture Experts Group is a working group of ISO
  13. # [00:21] <billmason> There are various mpeg references in http://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/index.html if that's significant.
  14. # [00:21] <dbloom> so i would hope so
  15. # [00:21] <Hixie> k
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  18. # [00:23] <takkaria> annevk: that's pretty awesome
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  22. # [00:32] <hubick> Any HTML5 Java programmers here that know if it's possible to get a javax.xml.transform.Transformer to output a <!DOCTYPE HTML> header, being that there doesn't seem to be an OutputKeys.DOCTYPE_NAME I can set on it?
  23. # [00:32] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  24. # [00:35] <annevk> I don't know about Java, but I do know that with XSLT you need to output literal text using <xsl:text> or something to get the DOCTYPE out correctly
  25. # [00:36] <annevk> As XSLT is currently not HTML5 aware
  26. # [00:37] <hubick> annevk: hmm... I am feeding this thing a DOM tree, and if that contains such literal text, I think it would be encoded upon output
  27. # [00:37] <annevk> you also need disable-output-escaping or something like that
  28. # [00:38] <hubick> in my simple case, the transformer is used with no XSLT, just simply as an XML serialization tool (hack)
  29. # [00:39] <annevk> I see
  30. # [00:39] <hubick> hmm, i may be forced to look into DOM Load/Save code... though I don't know if that actually ships with Java yet in 1.6 or 1.7
  31. # [00:39] <annevk> http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/ might have a better serializer
  32. # [00:40] <annevk> that's the only HTML5 Java project I know of
  33. # [00:40] <hubick> annevk: good idea. I'm already using Henri's stuff on the input side
  34. # [00:41] <annevk> I suspect he went to bed already, in about 8-9 hours he might be online
  35. # [00:53] <weinig> Hixie: If you have some time, I would be curious as to what your thoughts on http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16968 are?
  36. # [01:04] <Hixie> yeah it's a known issue i will deal with before acid3 is done
  37. # [01:07] <hubick> if (user agent Accept's HTML5) then output <header> else output <div class="header">; Is there a way to know if the user agent accepts html5?
  38. # [01:09] <hubick> or am I expected to fallback to regular old HTML and not XHTML, if there is no Accept: application/xhtml+xml?
  39. # [01:10] <Hixie> for now i'd just use <div class="header">.
  40. # [01:10] <hubick> (also, I don't see this answered in the FAQ, which I would think it must be one)
  41. # [01:11] <annevk> feel free to add questions to the faq where the answer is "..."
  42. # [01:11] <annevk> as far as detecting HTML5 support, there's not really such a thing
  43. # [01:12] <annevk> the Web evolves incrementally
  44. # [01:12] <hubick> Hixie: I am trying to be forward looking and code in XHTML5 support to my software today, with a property to disable it.
  45. # [01:12] <annevk> anyway, bedtime
  46. # [01:12] <annevk> g'night all
  47. # [01:12] <hubick> I guess it will need to be a property for the whole server, not based on user agent
  48. # [01:12] <hubick> annevk: gnight, thanks for your advice
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  65. # [02:27] <Hixie> i really think SOMEONE on slashdot has a think for henri
  66. # [02:27] <Hixie> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=426306&cid=22165240
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  71. # [02:32] <jwalden> yeah, that Henri Sovinen dude
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  73. # [02:35] * Hixie blinks at the current svg discussion on whatwg
  74. # [02:36] <Hixie> sure which i understood what people were talking about
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  92. # [04:27] * heycam is hungry at the thought of a "laughing stock of tag soup" (from that slashdot comment)
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  94. # [04:30] <Hixie> someone just pointed me to a blog post by anne in 2006 as an argument for why application/javascript is better than text/javascript
  95. # [04:30] <Hixie> since when can anne be used to appeal to authority over me :-P
  96. # [04:37] <othermaciej> Hixie: you need to remind him of his official Mindless Hixie Minion agreement
  97. # [04:37] <othermaciej> heycam: I prefer a chicken stock
  98. # [04:37] <othermaciej> or beef stock
  99. # [04:37] <othermaciej> I don't think laughing stock makes very good soup
  100. # [04:37] <heycam> :)
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  109. # [05:48] <MikeSmith> Hixie - minor suggested edit to text you added in latest checkin
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  111. # [05:49] <Hixie> yeah?
  112. # [05:49] <MikeSmith> "Zero length line segments" might better be "Zero-length line segments"
  113. # [05:49] <Hixie> good call
  114. # [05:51] <jwalden> Hixie: quick question about event.uri for a message posted from a data: page -- is the property based on the page that opened the data: page, or is it the data: URL? former seems better for compat with how about:blank is handled, for what it's worth
  115. # [05:51] <Hixie> i have no idea, i don't think i ever considered posting from a data: page when writing this part of the spec
  116. # [05:52] <jwalden> okay
  117. # [05:52] <jwalden> I shall boldly forge a path through this insanity!
  118. # [05:52] <Hixie> :-)
  119. # [05:52] <Hixie> please do mail the list with your conclusions :-)
  120. # [05:52] <jwalden> and unilaterally make it act like about:blank does
  121. # [05:52] <jwalden> yes
  122. # [05:52] <jwalden> I'll have a nice tidy set of testcases to post at that point as well
  123. # [05:53] <jwalden> just trying to fight through the review process now before posting the full set, which is always fun (more than triply so at this point in the release cycle)
  124. # [05:55] <Hixie> cool
  125. # [05:57] <othermaciej> jwalden: data: pages don't normally get the security domain of their opener in most contexts
  126. # [05:57] <othermaciej> at least in Firefox and Mozilla
  127. # [05:57] <othermaciej> er
  128. # [05:58] <othermaciej> in Firefox and Safari
  129. # [05:58] <othermaciej> (or Gecko and WebKit if you prefer)
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  131. # [05:59] <jwalden> othermaciej: not in webkit, but in Gecko a data page can do whatever its opener's domain can do
  132. # [05:59] <jwalden> opener, parent
  133. # [05:59] <othermaciej> jwalden: are you sure?
  134. # [05:59] <othermaciej> jwalden: they used to have no privileges at all
  135. # [05:59] <othermaciej> did this change recently?
  136. # [06:02] <othermaciej> (my last info on this is an email from Boris Zbarsky from October of last year, I guess I can make a test case)
  137. # [06:04] <jwalden> pretty sure it's always been that way
  138. # [06:04] <othermaciej> I remember specifically reading a mozilla bugzilla bug saying that all access to/from data: was disallowed
  139. # [06:04] <jwalden> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=255107
  140. # [06:04] <othermaciej> (because it's more complicated to deal with than about:blank)
  141. # [06:04] <jwalden> ^ wants to make it more complicated, but hasn't
  142. # [06:06] <othermaciej> I see, I misremembered
  143. # [06:06] <othermaciej> so yeah, if data: URIs have their opener's principal
  144. # [06:07] <othermaciej> then either you have to define opener differently than for about:blank (where it's the window.open sense opener or the parent frame always), and instead track which frame triggered opening the data: URL even for things like targeted links, or a frame self-navigating to a data: URL if it has a parent or opener....
  145. # [06:07] <othermaciej> or you have to disallow navigation of a frame that is or would be in a different security domain to a data: URL if you follow the about:blank / javascript: rule
  146. # [06:08] <othermaciej> either of these is pretty tricky to get right (either way it has to be somewhat more restrictive than javascipt: URLs)
  147. # [06:11] <othermaciej> (in other words, for data: URIs the origin has to be the origin of the Referer (in the http sense) which we don't currently have a good way to track
  148. # [06:11] <othermaciej> (it might not be derivable just from the Referer URI, imagine a site at example.org with an about:blank frame containing a data: frame)
  149. # [06:12] <othermaciej> it seems that Firefox's current behavior allows XSS exploits, if I understand it correctly
  150. # [06:13] <othermaciej> if you can get a site to embed you as a subframe and navigate yourself to a data: URI for instance
  151. # [06:13] <jwalden> yeah
  152. # [06:13] <jwalden> I kind of agree; I don't know if it'll change, tho
  153. # [06:13] <othermaciej> that means an ad in an iframe can always xss exploit its containing document in Firefox
  154. # [06:14] <othermaciej> (of course ads that are served as a JS script you embed can exploit you even esier but still, this kills iframe as a way to mitigate)
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  156. # [06:15] <jwalden> anyway...
  157. # [06:15] <jwalden> for now I think I'll go with the uri/domain of the parent/opener
  158. # [06:15] <jwalden> and I think with the methods I'm using, if we change how data: works that'll change too
  159. # [06:16] <jwalden> in any case, this isn't likely to be a huge use case, so if we change it later I don't think it's going to be a big problem
  160. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> Hixie - what's the relationship between the "source" and "index" files for the spec. Is the index file generated from source + header-whatwg ? it seems like not completely at least, because I notice that there are sometimes comments in the index file that aren't in the source file..
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  179. # [09:29] <hsivonen> Whoa! iCab has dropped legacy OS support!
  180. # [09:31] <othermaciej> and, more significantly, their engine
  181. # [09:34] <hsivonen> othermaciej: WebKit now?
  182. # [09:34] <othermaciej> hsivonen: that appears to be the case
  183. # [09:35] <hsivonen> interesting
  184. # [09:38] <othermaciej> the number of WebKit-based browsers is reaching crazy levels
  185. # [09:38] <othermaciej> (though I'm not sure how many could truly be considered polished products just yet, especially ones on non-Mac platforms)
  186. # [09:40] <hsivonen> I just discovered that iCab 3 has at least a standards mode and a quirks mode
  187. # [09:41] <othermaciej> I think WebKit can take credit for having killed at least 4 layout engines now
  188. # [09:41] <hsivonen> and if it does have an almost standards mode, it is different from Gecko/WebKit/Opera
  189. # [09:42] <hsivonen> iCab, Nokia in-house, Tasman and ?
  190. # [09:42] <othermaciej> I wasn't even counting the Nokia one - I'm not sure if that is totally abandoned but I guess so
  191. # [09:42] <othermaciej> other ones were Apple's old htmldisplay framework (now not in the OS any more) and OmniWeb's old engine
  192. # [09:43] <hsivonen> ok.
  193. # [09:43] <hsivonen> I had forgetten about the old OmniWeb engine
  194. # [09:43] <othermaciej> that was actually our first (and entirely unintentional) non-Apple design win
  195. # [09:44] <hsivonen> it sure was legacy. and, yet, Mac users like Cocoa so much that there was pressure on Mac-related sites to support it
  196. # [09:44] <othermaciej> (so to speak - we're not exactly doing CFPs or anything)
  197. # [09:44] <othermaciej> it had many problems but at the time was the only engine to do high-quality text rendering on OS X
  198. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> kind of sad to see the iCab engine go
  199. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> I was always kind of amazed at that guy
  200. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> it's always been a one-man project, right?
  201. # [09:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IIRC, the JS engine was written by another guy
  202. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> ah, OK. well still pretty commendable for one guy to produce a web engine of that level
  203. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> e.g., able to pass ACID2
  204. # [09:48] <hsivonen> yes
  205. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> I paid the iCab license fee.. can't remember how much it was, but very little 20 USD or something I think
  206. # [09:49] <hsivonen> hmm. HTML5 doctype is quirks in iCab 3.0.3
  207. # [09:51] <othermaciej> I have bittersweet feelings about most of WebKit's layout engine victims
  208. # [09:51] <othermaciej> (not htmldisplay though, that was just total crap)
  209. # [09:51] <othermaciej> even Tasman was a very nice engine for its day and quite good on standards compliance, compared to Trident
  210. # [09:52] <hsivonen> Tasman certainly had a lot of potential
  211. # [09:52] <hsivonen> IIRC, Tantek had something about a win32 port on his resume
  212. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> Tasman was the first to implement full support for CSS1, right?
  213. # [09:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes
  214. # [09:53] <othermaciej> I wonder if the next few years will see any significant new entrants to either browser or engine markets
  215. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> othermaciej - would bet probably not new engines, given the amount of work involved
  216. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> if anything, maybe only on mobile
  217. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> there's a browser that runs on Docomo handsets here in Japan
  218. # [09:55] <othermaciej> it would be hard to launch a new open source one
  219. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> Picsel
  220. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> yeah, I don't reckon we are going to see a new open source one
  221. # [09:55] <othermaciej> and few companies have both the means and the resources to do a new proprietary one
  222. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> I know Netsurf project is still going
  223. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> othermaciej - yeah, question is what value it would be for them to build a whole new engine
  224. # [09:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: is Picsel's browser developed in-house or based on something better-known?
  225. # [09:56] <hsivonen> is it good?
  226. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> I haven't tested Picsel so much, but it has a very good UI, developed in-house. I don't know about their engine for sure, but I think it was developed in-house as well
  227. # [09:57] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-204-145-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  228. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> there is a handset here in Japan -- a true mobile phone, with keypad -- that has an actual pointing device on it
  229. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> like an IBM trackpoint
  230. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> instead of 5-way arrow-key thing
  231. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> Picsel runs on that handset
  232. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> so the browser UI on that has a cursor
  233. # [10:00] <hsivonen> it seems that Picsel isn't for end users to install but something that is sold for bundling with a handset
  234. # [10:00] <hsivonen> right?
  235. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> yeah
  236. # [10:00] <hsivonen> who ships it? Panasonic?
  237. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> here in Japan, NEC
  238. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> not sure which others, if any
  239. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> I know a couple of developers who work at the Picsel office here
  240. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> in Tokyo
  241. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> anyway, that's only "new" browser for mobile that's come along recently that I know of
  242. # [10:01] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  243. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> well, with exception of Java ones
  244. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> J2ME ones, like Opera Mini
  245. # [10:02] <hsivonen> I don't recall ever noticing anyone from Picsel in a W3C or WHATWG context
  246. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> which all rely on proxies on the server side to do the rendering
  247. # [10:02] <hsivonen> oh, are there others than Opera Mini in the Opera Mini product category?
  248. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - yeah, they've not been involved
  249. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - yeah
  250. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> one here in Japan called "Jig"
  251. # [10:03] <hsivonen> ok. Japan-only?
  252. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> I think it may be downloadable
  253. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> for J2ME
  254. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> super-fast scrolling behavior in that thing
  255. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> and Bitstream makes a browser too
  256. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> Thunderhawk
  257. # [10:05] <hsivonen> interesting
  258. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> proxied system like Opera Mini
  259. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> in fact, I reckon we probably will see more of those
  260. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> along with Opera Mini, Jig, Thunderhaw, I mean
  261. # [10:06] <othermaciej> I think in a few years (max 5) even basic feature-phone hardware will have as much power as today's iPhone
  262. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> yeah
  263. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> that is the way we are headed
  264. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> btw, here's a page with info about some mobile browsers, including Japan-specific ones
  265. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/フルブラウザ
  266. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> "full browser" is the name of the article
  267. # [10:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: is it known what those non-Opera J2ME offering use as their engines on the server?
  268. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> this page has good info too
  269. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbrowser
  270. # [10:10] <Hixie> MikeSmith: in the subversion repo, you mean?
  271. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> Hixie - yeah
  272. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - Thunderhawk and Jig both use engines they have developed in-house
  273. # [10:12] <Hixie> MikeSmith: source is a snapshot of the file i edit
  274. # [10:12] * MikeSmith nods
  275. # [10:12] <Hixie> MikeSmith: and index is header-whatwg + source after going through several preprocessors
  276. # [10:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. I find it interesting that there are developers of full browser engines that don't send a rep to the HTML WG.
  277. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - that's not for lack of my trying to get them involved
  278. # [10:13] <Hixie> i've often wondered why the smaller browser and AT vendors aren't more active in the w3c and other standards forums
  279. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> s/of my/of me/
  280. # [10:13] <Hixie> it's not like they haven't been invited many times by many people
  281. # [10:13] <hsivonen> I didn't doubt invitations
  282. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> yep. I think the main reason is lack of people
  283. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> qualified people who have the time
  284. # [10:14] <Hixie> it doesn't take much to at least pay attention
  285. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> true
  286. # [10:14] <Hixie> and the cost has to be far outweighed by the benefits
  287. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> I need to try harder to get the in, I guess
  288. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> I spent a lot of time at it when the HTML WG was first formed
  289. # [10:15] <Hixie> well at some point you have to just figure that they don't care and screw 'em, imho
  290. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> even before I was the team contact for the group
  291. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> Hixie - yeah, that's kind of what ended up happening -- not exactly screw 'em, but at least thinking, maybe this ain't paying off for the time I'm putting into it
  292. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> but with the FPWD publication, maybe a good opportunity to try again
  293. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> btw, Christian Sejersen from Mozilla mobile team is a member of the HTML WG
  294. # [10:16] <Hixie> i think we have enough people involved now that i can honestly say that they'd benefit more from taking part than we would from their taking part
  295. # [10:17] <Hixie> which is why i don't understand why they don't take part, given how much we have invited everyone
  296. # [10:17] <Hixie> anyway
  297. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> certainly would be to their big benefit to be paying attention
  298. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> Hixie - the thing that confused me about index and source is the comments
  299. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> comments that are in index but not in source
  300. # [10:18] <Hixie> ~like what?
  301. # [10:20] <othermaciej> it's pretty hard to even get the people at major browser vendors really actively engaged
  302. # [10:20] <othermaciej> (in fact, among Microsoft, Mozilla, Apple and Opera, degree of active HTML5 standards engagement seems inversely proportional to market share)
  303. # [10:20] <Hixie> that makes sense
  304. # [10:20] <Hixie> you benefit more from standards if you are a small player
  305. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> Hixie - hang on, let me find the diff I was looking at
  306. # [10:21] <othermaciej> but there's a cliff at Opera
  307. # [10:21] <Hixie> yeah
  308. # [10:21] <Hixie> it's od
  309. # [10:21] <othermaciej> I think players below that are just too small to play
  310. # [10:21] <Hixie> i also don't understand why, apart from google, and aol -- but only in css really -- the big publishers don't seem to take part either
  311. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2008/000369.html
  312. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> r1170
  313. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> oops
  314. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> um, er, ignore me
  315. # [10:24] <Hixie> heh
  316. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> I see it's in the source...
  317. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> too many nights without much sleep recently
  318. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> Hixie - last brilliant question/suggestion I will offer for today
  319. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> this one:
  320. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> might be good to have an ID on the list of doctypes for quirks mode
  321. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> in the spec
  322. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> that is the list in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#tree-construction0
  323. # [10:26] <othermaciej> I would expect Yahoo to participate
  324. # [10:27] <othermaciej> but some of it could be quirky interests of their self-proclaimed standards experts
  325. # [10:27] <othermaciej> Yahoo is active in ECMAScript standardization
  326. # [10:27] <othermaciej> (though in a somewhat unusual way)
  327. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> I really don't understand why Yahoo doesn't participate more
  328. # [10:29] * Joins: Camaban (n=adrianle@host81-133-253-248.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  329. # [10:30] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah, i should do that
  330. # [10:30] <othermaciej> Doug thinks JavaScript is the source of, and solution to, all Web problems
  331. # [10:31] <othermaciej> I blew people's minds today when I pointed out that a "secure JavaScript" dialect for in-page embeddable widgets would do no good without a restricted DOM design
  332. # [10:31] <othermaciej> (which is incredibly hard)
  333. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie - reason I suggested it was just because I had been planning to write a blog entry about "HTML5, IE8, doctype switching, and version targeting"
  334. # [10:32] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: all the cool kids are doing it
  335. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> heh
  336. # [10:32] <Hixie> i have added an id
  337. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie - thanks
  338. # [10:34] * Joins: peepo (n=Jay@host217-42-95-198.range217-42.btcentralplus.com)
  339. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> othermaciej - passé now to that all the cool kids have had their say
  340. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> but maybe still useful to let people know that doctype switching is part of the spec
  341. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> and that it's a mechanism meant to work in standard way across browsers
  342. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> not targeting any specific browser or version
  343. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> etc.
  344. # [10:36] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: seems like a good thing to mention
  345. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> well, I'll try to get it written up on W3C Q&A blog today
  346. # [10:37] * MikeSmith stumbles upon http://www.winningsolutionsinc.com/services/webDesign/w3cInformation.asp?gclid=CObbg5OJkZECFQZLbwodry3_Pw
  347. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> speaking of participation...
  348. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> "Winning Solutions, Inc. (WSI) has been actively involved in keeping up to date on the standards provided by The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). "
  349. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> they sell services for making your site "W3C compliant"
  350. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> "Professional W3C compliance for your site on time and budget."
  351. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> "actively inolved in keeping up to date on standards" is any interesting turn of phrse
  352. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> phrase
  353. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> If you can't be troubled to getting actively involved in actual work on standards, at least you can get actively involved in keeping up to date on them.
  354. # [10:47] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  355. # [10:51] <hendry> tbh, i find it a little hard to stay on top of stuff
  356. # [10:55] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  357. # [11:02] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  358. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> hendry - hard to do that and also get other work done, I guess
  359. # [11:12] <hendry> MikeSmith: yes, i'm busy with webvm. you'll be at 3GSM btw?
  360. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> nope. would be nice to be in Barcelona at that time instead of hanging out at home, but can't justify taking time out to go there
  361. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> I was there for the whole event last year
  362. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> at the W3C boot
  363. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> booth
  364. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> and walking around
  365. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> talking to everybody
  366. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> Opera and Trolltech had been booth areas right next to each other
  367. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> overall, it was pretty exhausting
  368. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> lots of mobile-porn companies there, though
  369. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> so that was a plus
  370. # [11:16] <hendry> MikeSmith: i'm not sure about going myself
  371. # [11:16] <hendry> i think i might be too exhausted by then ;)
  372. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> W3C MWI folks will be there
  373. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> W3C team plus many folks from W3C member orgs that will be exhibiting there
  374. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> I do have to say there's all kinds of really cool products/technologies to see there
  375. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> always some big announcements of course
  376. # [11:25] * Quits: peepo (n=Jay@host217-42-95-198.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) ("later")
  377. # [11:25] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  378. # [11:26] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  379. # [11:28] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  380. # [11:28] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  381. # [11:31] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-ac3b8c26608bce94)
  382. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> anybody submit proposals for XTech 2008?
  383. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen ?
  384. # [11:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I didn't
  385. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> me neither
  386. # [11:38] <hsivonen> hmm. in the wake of the IE8 meta thing, perhaps I should blog about bug 42525, the Almost Standards Mode and lessons learned
  387. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - that would be very good I think
  388. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> karl pointed out Eric Meyer's latest entry related to this, but I haven't read it yet
  389. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> skimmed through it
  390. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> I think he tries to present a bit of the history in that
  391. # [11:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: my comment there is the short version of what I think
  392. # [11:41] * MikeSmith goes over to read hsivonen comment
  393. # [11:41] <om_sleep> in retrospect it would have been better than CSS
  394. # [11:41] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  395. # [11:42] <othermaciej> the world is not really a better place on account of CSS image alignment changing in standards mode
  396. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - so you already have most of your blog posting already written :)
  397. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> copy and paste your comment there
  398. # [11:43] <othermaciej> incidentally Almost Standards Mode is pretty distinguishable from IE versioning (even though I resent having the extra mode)
  399. # [11:43] <othermaciej> because it's a selective quirk
  400. # [11:43] <othermaciej> not a whole frozen engine
  401. # [11:43] <othermaciej> the web would be a different place if Mozilla's quirks mode and almost standards mode were based on frozen Netscape 4 and Netscape 5 behaviors
  402. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> re: thacker comment "When a course correction is required, do you maneuver the ship or try to move the ocean?", I think the correct answer is, Sink the ship before it leaves the harbor.
  403. # [11:45] <othermaciej> in fact that's roc's first comment
  404. # [11:45] <othermaciej> that roc is a smart guy
  405. # [11:54] <othermaciej> in fact hsivonen and roc between them (and Rijk by reference) said exactly what I think about the story
  406. # [12:17] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  407. # [12:36] * Joins: ed_work (n=ed@pat.se.opera.com)
  408. # [12:36] <ed_work> Hixie: test #70 in acid3, slightly incorrect error message: if (!kungFuDeathGrip.firstChild.getSVGDocument) fail("getSVGDocument missing on <object> element.");
  409. # [12:37] <ed_work> should be <iframe> there
  410. # [12:38] <ed_work> not sure about if you can modify content of a data URI document either...
  411. # [12:38] <ed_work> should that work?
  412. # [13:04] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
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  414. # [13:15] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-ac3b8c26608bce94)
  415. # [13:19] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
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  417. # [13:21] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
  418. # [13:23] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  419. # [13:45] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  420. # [13:56] <annevk> MikeSmith, where is that comment?
  421. # [13:57] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  422. # [14:12] <annevk> ooh, dirac is still alive
  423. # [14:14] * Quits: dbloom (n=futurama@12-217-120-80.client.mchsi.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  424. # [14:26] <Lachy> annevk, what's happening with dirac? link?
  425. # [14:27] <annevk> http://sonofid.blogspot.com/2008/01/on-road-to-dirac-standard-at-last.html
  426. # [14:28] <Lachy> nice. Maybe there's hope for a decent basline video codec in HTML5 after all :-)
  427. # [14:29] <hsivonen> standardization doesn't mean it will really be unencumbered, though
  428. # [14:30] <Lachy> if there's enough support behind it from large enough organisations, the perceived risk is lower
  429. # [14:30] <Lachy> gotta go
  430. # [14:30] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  431. # [14:30] <annevk> that blog post claims it's RF
  432. # [14:30] <annevk> but yeah
  433. # [14:32] <annevk> ok, it was about http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/
  434. # [14:36] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-ff666a872f3a788a)
  435. # [14:37] <Camaban> my feeling about that blog post from meyer is that the web is a bit different now than it was in 2002
  436. # [14:38] <hsivonen> Camaban: indeed. see also http://hsivonen.iki.fi/almost-precedent/
  437. # [14:38] <annevk> it's such a crappy comparison too
  438. # [14:38] <annevk> <canvas> works in almost standards mode
  439. # [14:38] <annevk> <canvas> would never work in IE7 mode
  440. # [14:38] <annevk> (per current proposal)
  441. # [14:39] <Camaban> in 2002 NS was dying out and IE was the only other browser with any significant market share wasn't it?
  442. # [14:39] <hsivonen> Camaban: yes
  443. # [14:41] <Camaban> little different to the landscape now with FF alreayd forcing MS to restart dev on IE, and Opera and Safari biting at their heals as well, now it's more of a case of people saying "it works in every other browser, but not IE, why?"
  444. # [14:43] * Camaban goes to read almost precident
  445. # [14:44] <Camaban> sorry, but I have to lol a bit at the domain that was going to break :)
  446. # [14:50] <hsivonen> Camaban: do you mean apple.com or the site Eric was referring to?
  447. # [14:51] <Camaban> apple.com
  448. # [14:51] <Camaban> when you talk about big sites breaking, that's pretty well up there
  449. # [14:51] <Camaban> but also slightly ironic with Apple's "easier to use" line
  450. # [14:52] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  451. # [14:53] <Camaban> hsivonen: I assume form that comment that the example you used, and the example Eric used are different cases?
  452. # [14:53] <Camaban> *from
  453. # [14:53] <hsivonen> Camaban: that's my understanding, yes.
  454. # [14:54] <Camaban> ok, wasn't terribly clear, though if you're on about 2000, and Eric's on about 2002, I guess chances are they are different
  455. # [14:56] * Parts: ed_work (n=ed@pat.se.opera.com)
  456. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> annevk - yeah the http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/ article
  457. # [14:59] <annevk> ok, posted my own thoughts and linked hsivonen
  458. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> about Diracd and the codec issue, I think the point that mikko and/or others have made about video in browsers on mobile devices is going to remain important
  459. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> that is, that the codec needs to be supported at the hardware level on those devices
  460. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> in order to provide a usable level of performance
  461. # [15:02] <annevk> solving problems takes time, sure :)
  462. # [15:03] * gsnedders needs to write his own thoughts about the issue
  463. # [15:03] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@c-69-248-233-101.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  464. # [15:04] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks for linkage
  465. # [15:08] <annevk> given how the various doctype sniffing scenarios could've turned out the current one as specced in html5 isn't so bad
  466. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> annevk - did you submit any proposals for Xtech 2008
  467. # [15:09] <annevk> have not
  468. # [15:09] <annevk> wasn't aware that it is that time again
  469. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> today's the deadline
  470. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - you should whip up something and submit it if you have time
  471. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> annevk - you too
  472. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> even if you're not sure you can go (or want to)
  473. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> if you need more time, just e-mail edd and let him know
  474. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> I'm pretty sure he'll accept stuff up through Monday anyway
  475. # [15:12] <annevk> what to talk about though
  476. # [15:12] <annevk> all my talks are like 15 minutes max
  477. # [15:12] <annevk> maybe i should talk about stuff i've been involved in and mix it into one large talk :)
  478. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> that'd work
  479. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> worth a try at least
  480. # [15:14] * gsnedders can't talk in public at all
  481. # [15:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think now it's too late in practice.
  482. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> annevk - a talk on XHR and Access Control and related issues around them would be plenty enough for a talk
  483. # [15:18] <annevk> i suppose
  484. # [15:18] <annevk> ok, where can i submit?
  485. # [15:18] <annevk> http://2008.xtech.org/public/cfp
  486. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - well, for me the main point of XTech is an opportunity to meet face to face with people and talk. If you and annevk and jgraham and others aren't planning to go, it gives me much less reason to go
  487. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> annevk - yeah, that
  488. # [15:19] * MikeSmith wonders if hendry might be going
  489. # [15:19] <annevk> crap, you need to login
  490. # [15:19] <annevk> i should get an openid server running somewhere
  491. # [15:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: right. earlier, I got a feeling that the usual suspects from the last three years weren't going.
  492. # [15:20] <MikeSmith> I've been meaning to set up my openid server on my mail/web host
  493. # [15:20] * annevk sets up an openid server first
  494. # [15:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: in addition, the stuff I've been up to lately is stuff I already talked about last year in future tense
  495. # [15:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - true, but could talk about what progress you've made
  496. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> as far as usual suspects, I guess Mozilla people probably won't be there
  497. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> folks from Opera maybe
  498. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> we really ought to try to cook up some way to get together for an annual thing in Europe that we don't have to pay to attend
  499. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> hmm, I remember there is this:
  500. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/TPOverview.html
  501. # [15:25] <annevk> i'd like a yearly thingie where Web browser people meet
  502. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> 20-25 October 2008, Mandelieu, France
  503. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> annevk - yeah, that's pretty much what I meant
  504. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> except for financial reasons (costs of travel), I think it might need to be two yearly thingies
  505. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> one in Europe, one in North America
  506. # [15:26] <hsivonen> I like having the Tech Plenary in France
  507. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> America one should be in San Francisco/Silicon Valley
  508. # [15:28] <hsivonen> San Francisto is nice, too. (the flight duration, carbon emissions and U.S. border stuff not so nice)
  509. # [15:28] <gsnedders> sodz.
  510. # [15:28] <gsnedders> TP is in my school holidays.
  511. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> hmm, the "Sofitel Cannes Mandelieu Royal Casino Hotel"
  512. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> that doesn't sound inexpensive
  513. # [15:30] <gsnedders> there are plenty of places nearby, though
  514. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> I wonder if there is an "Adequate with Decent Wireless That Doesn't Cost Extra Hotel"
  515. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> the word "Royal" is a synonym for "We will ream you" usually
  516. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> as far as hotels go
  517. # [15:32] * gsnedders looks up on website
  518. # [15:33] <gsnedders> for one person, seemingly 199EUR/night (145.94GBP/night)
  519. # [15:33] <gsnedders> and same price for two people in one room
  520. # [15:34] * gsnedders goes back to doing something more useful
  521. # [15:35] <hsivonen> if Google Maps is any indication, I don't expect other cheper hotels to be at convenient walking distance
  522. # [15:36] <gsnedders> hsivonen: 2006 page lists <http://www.w3.org/2005/12/allgroupoverview.html#Alternate>
  523. # [15:36] <gsnedders> vary from 200m away to 10/15 minutes walk
  524. # [15:36] <hsivonen> gsnedders: thanks
  525. # [15:37] <gsnedders> np
  526. # [15:37] <Philip`> "First, Dirac (or part of it) is going to be an international standard. Yay! We made a cut-down version doing intra coding only and this has only just been submitted to the SMPTE."
  527. # [15:38] <Philip`> "intra coding" sounds like it's just what Motion JPEG does, i.e. kind of rubbish for video compression
  528. # [15:39] <Philip`> (like compressing each frame independently, not making use of any inter-frame similarities over time)
  529. # [15:39] <gsnedders> hsivonen, MikeSmith: that suggests hotels half the price, FWIW
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  532. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> Philip` - I seem to remember discussions of Dirac saying the quality was pretty good
  533. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> or not?
  534. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> at least better than Theora
  535. # [15:44] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: but a profile without wavelet encoding? it's questionable.
  536. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> I wonder if Dirac is anywhere on par with codecs available to Flash developers
  537. # [15:44] * MikeSmith doesn't know what codecs Flash supports
  538. # [15:45] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: H.264 is coming in the next version of flash, so it becomes quite unlikely for a Dirac profile to be better
  539. # [15:45] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: actually, already shipping in Flash 9 Update 3
  540. # [15:46] <gsnedders> H.263, VP6, and H.264 are supported
  541. # [15:47] <Philip`> MikeSmith: That's possible, but it sounds like the thing they're submitting to ISO now is a significantly stripped-down version
  542. # [15:47] <Philip`> Oh, actually, am I just making up the ISO part?
  543. # [15:48] <Philip`> Ah, SMPTE
  544. # [15:49] * Philip` gets confused by all these fancy new organisations claiming to define standards
  545. # [15:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: I gather that SMPTE is where you go in order to get the stamp if ISO says no
  546. # [15:54] <hendry> MikeSmith: i'm preparing some right now. i didn't realise they needed an abstract
  547. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> Philip` - hmm, this whole one-codec-with-multiple-profiles thing really muddies the waters
  548. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> or whatever the call them (if not profiles)
  549. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> Dirac Light
  550. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> Dirac with More Cowbell
  551. # [16:08] <annevk> oh, an abstract
  552. # [16:08] <Philip`> I'm not sure it was ever "waters" - it's just piling more mud into the existing mud
  553. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> heh
  554. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> then calcification and then strata for future generations to dig into and explore
  555. # [16:10] <hsivonen> that's one point where Theora really shines: it's just Theora--not with profiles and levels
  556. # [16:10] <annevk> Abstract: A talk explaining how client-side cross-site requests will be done two years from now.
  557. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> yeah, profiles generally suck
  558. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> annevk - you need to pad that out with extra words
  559. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> e.g., "An exciting talk..."
  560. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> or "A glimpse into the future..."
  561. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> I find that "glimpse into the future" bit is really useful when talking about standards
  562. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> since they take so long to get done and support deployed
  563. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> "Something to look forward to..."
  564. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> when you are old and gray
  565. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> "Something you grandchildren will enjoy the use of (maybe, if we are done by then)"
  566. # [16:18] <gsnedders> how lovely. I can get by train from here to Mandelieu in just under 24 hours :P
  567. # [16:19] <gsnedders> Oh, and I can get back in a single day!111!! :P
  568. # [16:20] * gsnedders somehow doubts he'll be doing that
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  570. # [16:28] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  571. # [16:35] * Philip` notices that the putImageData proposals are sounding a lot like drawImage
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  581. # [17:21] <zcorpan> is this the right time to try to eliminate full standards mode?
  582. # [17:22] <annevk> now is as good as ever
  583. # [17:22] <Philip`> http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/01/25/new-snapshot-experimenting-with-document-all-cloaking - is that cloaking something that Firefox does already?
  584. # [17:23] <annevk> yes
  585. # [17:36] <aroben> WebKit does it as well
  586. # [17:41] * Philip` wonders if HTML5 says anything about it
  587. # [17:42] <Philip`> Oh, looks like it doesn't
  588. # [18:00] <jwalden> haha
  589. # [18:00] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)")
  590. # [18:01] <jwalden> supporting non-standard features to gain compatibility results in compatibility bustage
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  594. # [18:17] <annevk> jwalden, that's mostly why Gecko hides it too ;)
  595. # [18:17] <jwalden> yuppers
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  598. # [18:27] * ed_japan is now known as ed_
  599. # [18:27] * ed_ is now known as ed_home
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  605. # [19:06] <annevk> SVG images are nice: http://id.annevankesteren.nl/
  606. # [19:13] * Quits: Ketsuban (n=ketsuban@cpc2-oxfd8-0-0-cust335.oxfd.cable.ntl.com) ("Perhaps on the rare occasion pursuing the right course demands an act of piracy, piracy itself can be the right course?")
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  609. # [19:16] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  610. # [19:19] <annevk> hmm, but my openid doesn't really work, or maybe i don't understand how it's supposed to work
  611. # [19:20] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-087-110.nc.res.rr.com)
  612. # [19:24] <MikeSmith> rubys - hei
  613. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> 久しぶり as we say in Japan
  614. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> "hisashiburi" meaning "long time no see"
  615. # [19:26] <rubys> hi!
  616. # [19:27] <rubys> wandered in to find annevk
  617. # [19:27] <annevk> lets tests this again :)
  618. # [19:30] <Ketsuban> MikeSmith: Now I know how to greet my Japanese teacher when I go back on Monday, thanks. :P
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  621. # [19:59] <annevk> ok, added a proposal for XTech
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  630. # [21:15] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jan/0043.html
  631. # [21:15] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  632. # [21:19] <annevk> oh, better: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jan/0055.html
  633. # [21:20] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@65.80-202-82.nextgentel.com)
  634. # [21:21] <hober> Was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Nov/0000.html really the last post to public-forms-tf?
  635. # [21:22] <annevk> yes
  636. # [21:22] <annevk> that list hasn't been active at all
  637. # [21:22] <annevk> i tried getting people to participate but it hasn't worked out
  638. # [21:23] <annevk> but there's a due date in april or so
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  646. # [22:41] <virtuelv> those of you who also hang out on reddit: http://reddit.com/r/browsers
  647. # [22:54] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T7eda.t.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
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  649. # [23:01] <zcorpan_> Hixie: a test for acid3: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cinput%20value%3Dx%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.body.firstChild.value%3Dnull%3C%2Fscript%3E
  650. # [23:01] <Hixie> please e-mail me, i am swamped right now
  651. # [23:01] <Hixie> (sorry)
  652. # [23:01] <Hixie> (i do appreciate the help)
  653. # [23:02] <zcorpan_> done
  654. # [23:02] <Hixie> thanks
  655. # [23:07] <annevk> ah yeah, Firefox parsing quirks
  656. # [23:08] <zcorpan_> parsing quirk?
  657. # [23:10] <annevk> somehow <script> ends up before <body>
  658. # [23:10] <annevk> and therefore the reference fails
  659. # [23:10] <zcorpan_> not in my firefox (for that case, anyway)
  660. # [23:10] <zcorpan_> but that's not the point of the test
  661. # [23:11] <zcorpan_> that's also something to put in acid3 though
  662. # [23:11] <annevk> my Firefox 3 most definitely does that
  663. # [23:11] <annevk> head > script, body > input
  664. # [23:11] <annevk> instead of body > input, script
  665. # [23:11] <zcorpan_> Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9b3pre) Gecko/2008010211 Minefield/3.0b3pre
  666. # [23:12] <zcorpan_> i get script in head if i use <span> or so instead of <input> though
  667. # [23:12] <annevk> interesting
  668. # [23:12] <annevk> my Firefox 3 is from September or so
  669. # [23:12] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
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  671. # [23:19] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  672. # [23:20] <annevk> zcorpan_, I suppose <span></span><script> ... </script> might not fail in WebKit and that therefore it does not count :-(
  673. # [23:20] <annevk> oh well, I can submit it anyway
  674. # [23:21] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  676. # [23:27] <Hixie> ok people need to stop being so happy that the html5 doctype will trigger ie8-bugs-mode
  677. # [23:28] <Hixie> there's no advantage to it triggering that bugs mode vs ie7 bugs mode
  678. # [23:28] <Hixie> it's still a frozen bugs mode
  679. # [23:29] <zcorpan_> speaking of interactivity, i wonder if <iframe> and perhaps <object> should be classified as interactive as far as content models go
  680. # [23:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: it sounds like right now it triggers best-effort standards mode, but they reserve the right to freeze it to a bug mode in the future
  681. # [23:30] <Hixie> best-effort mode is IE8 mode
  682. # [23:31] <annevk> zcorpan_, depending on whether they have a scrollbar, perhaps
  683. # [23:32] <zcorpan_> annevk: my point was that click events don't bubble up from the iframe
  684. # [23:32] <zcorpan_> so <a href=''><iframe> is pretty bogus
  685. # [23:32] <Hixie> the "Alright, I Come Clean: I hate HTML 5" sent me a long e-mail about his actual concerns, heh
  686. # [23:33] <Hixie> one of his problems is:
  687. # [23:33] <Hixie> - It could've been better in terms of openness of the project. A lot
  688. # [23:33] <Hixie> better.
  689. # [23:33] <Hixie> how the hell can we be more open. seriously.
  690. # [23:33] <zcorpan_> but <object> might be <img>ish or <iframe>ish depening on what is embedded, which makes the conf criteria a bit harder
  691. # [23:34] <Hixie> oh, apparently he just wanted a forum... guess we'd better make forums.whatwg.org more visible
  692. # [23:34] <zcorpan_> anything i can do on that front? rename it to "html5 forum"?
  693. # [23:35] <Hixie> i dunno
  694. # [23:35] <Hixie> maybe that might work
  695. # [23:35] <othermaciej> Hixie: the difference is only for post-IE8 releases where we can't predict what Microsoft will do
  696. # [23:35] <Hixie> WHATWG HTML5 Forums, so we don't piss off the w3c
  697. # [23:35] <othermaciej> (between best-effort mode and IE8 mode)
  698. # [23:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: sure... and if people use the html5 doctype, guess what they'll do
  699. # [23:36] <othermaciej> I'm not recommending using it - I honestly don't know what I'd do if I were a web developer
  700. # [23:36] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-58aa09cf46e6ff96)
  701. # [23:36] <Hixie> i'd recommend not doing anything
  702. # [23:36] <othermaciej> what's the "I come clean" thing?
  703. # [23:36] <Hixie> http://sitegod.blogspot.com/
  704. # [23:37] <zcorpan_> as a web developer, it doesn't help you anything at this point to use ie8 mode, because you still need to support ie6 and ie7
  705. # [23:37] <zcorpan_> instead it probably means you have to work around bugs in ie8 mode as well, meaning more work
  706. # [23:38] <othermaciej> hmmm, which of us are yuppies and which are cowboys?
  707. # [23:38] <Ketsuban> <zcorpan_> instead it probably means you have to work around bugs in ie8 mode as well, meaning more work
  708. # [23:38] <Ketsuban> But working around bugs in any IE version after 5 is trivial.
  709. # [23:39] <zcorpan_> Ketsuban: what i mean is that instead of working around bugs in ie6 and ie7, if you put ie8 in ie8 mode, you *also* have to work around bugs in ie8's ie8 mode
  710. # [23:39] <virtuelv> heh. vitriolic guy
  711. # [23:40] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: you also have to make sure that your IE7 workarounds don't break IE8 in IE8 mode
  712. # [23:40] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: indeed
  713. # [23:40] <annevk> spam: http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?p=559#559
  714. # [23:42] <zcorpan_> annevk: thanks
  715. # [23:42] <zcorpan_> renamed f.w.o to WHATWG HTML5 Forums
  716. # [23:47] <virtuelv> does anyone know of a tool to generate a diff between an archive.org copy of a site and the current document?
  717. # [23:48] <Hixie> diff(1) ?
  718. # [23:48] * Joins: franksalim (n=franksal@cpe-72-130-134-143.san.res.rr.com)
  719. # [23:48] <virtuelv> the latest a list apart showed up in my feeds again, I'm wondering if anything changed within
  720. # [23:48] <Hixie> (with curl(1)?)
  721. # [23:48] <eseidel_> sounds like a fun little tool to write
  722. # [23:48] <eseidel_> could diff between archive.org versions too
  723. # [23:49] <virtuelv> not that it really helps with alistapart
  724. # [23:49] <virtuelv> " Material typically becomes available here 6 months after collection (See FAQ) "
  725. # [23:49] <virtuelv> google cache might be an alternative
  726. # [23:50] <virtuelv> (But I realise that requires massage, and permission from Google
  727. # [23:50] <virtuelv> )
  728. # [23:52] <zcorpan_> "Really, from the point of view of HTML5 it doesn't matter whose fault the headers being sent are. It might be the fault of Apache, or IE, or Netscape, or the great spaghetti monster."
  729. # [23:52] <zcorpan_> let's blame the great spaghetti monster ;)
  730. # [23:52] <Dashiva> He doesn't like being blamed, I hear
  731. # [23:52] <Hixie> is the great spaghetti monster his highness the flying spaghetti monster?
  732. # [23:53] <zcorpan_> not sure, but it's his fault we now will have to sniff text/plain; charset=UTF-8 :P
  733. # [23:53] <Dashiva> I bet if everyone used IIS, we wouldn't have this problem :P
  734. # [23:58] <annevk> Hixie, you disagree with that part of Web Arch?
  735. # Session Close: Sat Jan 26 00:00:00 2008

The end :)