/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-01-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jan 28 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <jgraham_> hsivonen: So I was thinking about the whole table @headers thing again and I wondered if it should be made conforming but the spec should say that authors SHOULD NOT use @headers unless no other mechanism could express the correct relationships
  4. # [00:01] <jgraham_> However I thought you might not like the machine-checkable-but-hard-o-implement criteria
  5. # [00:01] <jgraham_> s/-o /-to-/
  6. # [00:02] <gsnedders> jgraham: someone might see one way of marking something up, but another person might not
  7. # [00:02] <webben> Given the complexity of some of the proposed header/cell association mechanisms, I should think that imposes a substantial cognitive load on authors.
  8. # [00:02] <jgraham_> The theory is that the only people who care about @headers also care about accessibility and so are more likely than average to actualy follow the spec on this point
  9. # [00:02] <gsnedders> that pushes it a bit too far
  10. # [00:02] <webben> But I can see you could machine-check it.
  11. # [00:02] * csarven- is now known as csarven
  12. # [00:03] <webben> OTOH it's unclear what the advantage of burdening authors with the burden of checking it would be.
  13. # [00:04] <webben> saving bytes?
  14. # [00:04] <jgraham_> gsnedders: I don't think that's actually likely to be a problem in practice
  15. # [00:05] <jgraham_> webben: The problem is that people get @headers wrong so often that it can actually be harmful to respect it
  16. # [00:05] <jgraham_> OTOH there are a few legitimate cases where no other mechanism so far proposed can work
  17. # [00:06] <webben> The problem there is incorrect heading information, not how the information is expressed.
  18. # [00:07] <webben> If people get headers wrong, and you run a tool which checks to see if the headers info is superflous, then the tool's result will be wrong too.
  19. # [00:07] <jgraham_> The problem is @headers makes it so easy to get the information wrong that _in practice_ it can be worse than doing nothing
  20. # [00:07] <webben> So the only sort of tool that helps is one that shows you the associations and asks if they're right.
  21. # [00:08] <jgraham_> (typical mistakes include mistyping the attribute name, mistyping the idrefs, putting an idref to an element not in the table)
  22. # [00:08] <webben> all three sound like situations where a UA should act as if the attribute isn't there
  23. # [00:09] <webben> and therefore the fact that the attribute is wrong shouldn't make it worse than if it wasn't there
  24. # [00:10] <jgraham_> webben: it does make it worse than using e.g. scope attributes to express the same information though
  25. # [00:11] <jgraham_> and in some cases - e.g. if the author just gets one idref wrong, it houldn't ignore the whole value, presumably
  26. # [00:11] <webben> well, the only reason not to use scope is because either a) you're generating with a tool that generates table markup and just uses header/id (removing the human error element) or b) consuming agents don't support scope.
  27. # [00:11] <webben> artificially limiting authors to scope doesn't help in either situation
  28. # [00:11] <jgraham_> webben: Let's ignore the limitations of UAs for the moment
  29. # [00:12] <jgraham_> (arguably that would be a good reason to violate a SHOULD NOT, but not enough to violate the implicit MUST NOT of removing the attribute from the spec)
  30. # [00:13] <jgraham_> s/that/UA limitations/
  31. # [00:13] <webben> I think making good practice (making websites that actually work) dependent on violating SHOULD NOTs is counter-intuitive.
  32. # [00:14] <webben> (although I can see your point given the technical definition of SHOULD NOT)
  33. # [00:15] <jgraham_> The solution to that problem is to make the UA vendors implement non-@headers algorithms in their product.
  34. # [00:15] <webben> Yeah, and the solution to IE not supporting XHTML is to "make" MS implement XHTML.
  35. # [00:15] <jgraham_> Which they really ought to do anyway since so few sites use @headers
  36. # [00:15] <webben> few sites use scope either
  37. # [00:16] <jgraham_> Hey I didn't say it would be easy :)
  38. # [00:16] <webben> I don't think the solution to making websites that actually work is to foist problems onto client software vendors and end-users.
  39. # [00:16] <jgraham_> re:scope indeed, which is why I'm trying to make it needed in as few cases as possible
  40. # [00:18] <othermaciej> webben: actually, putting a burden on client software vendors is probably better than putting it on web developers, if getting it right is possible either way and if it matters to the end user
  41. # [00:18] <othermaciej> because there's a lot fewer user agents than web sites
  42. # [00:18] <othermaciej> so that's fewer places to get it wrong
  43. # [00:18] <jgraham_> The history of the web suggests that trying to adjust the behavior of the inhomogeneous mass of authors is ineffective way to solve problems
  44. # [00:19] <webben> I wouldn't say the history of web developers desiring UAs to implement specs is a particularly happy history either.
  45. # [00:19] <othermaciej> do you mean that we developers don't desire that, or that UAs don't implement the specs that web developers want?
  46. # [00:19] <webben> besides we're not talking here about giving authors licence, but about restricting them with a SHOULD NOT.
  47. # [00:19] <jgraham_> I would rather try and change a handful of UAs than a large number of authors
  48. # [00:20] <webben> (or appearing to restrict them, and thus confusing the issue)
  49. # [00:20] <webben> meh, changing web output is cheap compared to changing expensive software installs
  50. # [00:21] <othermaciej> per unit, yes
  51. # [00:21] <othermaciej> but web output is much much larger in total
  52. # [00:21] <webben> (witness how we bend over backwards to serve IE6 ... and upgrading from IE6 is nearly free)
  53. # [00:21] <jgraham_> webben: Restricting people is often good overall
  54. # [00:21] <webben> (where upgrading means moving to IE7 or any other decent browser)
  55. # [00:21] <jgraham_> e.g. the more limited UI in Firefox made it a success over the Mozilla suite
  56. # [00:22] <othermaciej> IE seems to be the only browser that doesn't get upgrade traction
  57. # [00:22] <jgraham_> (often web output is backed by expensive software installs)
  58. # [00:22] <othermaciej> (not sure why - bug lockin? people who never upgrade?)
  59. # [00:23] <webben> I'm not sure how far you can push an analogy between user interfaces (which are designed to present functionality to the user) and markup languages (that are designed, basically, to trigger functionality in client software0
  60. # [00:23] <othermaciej> languages are a user interface for developers
  61. # [00:23] <jgraham_> they both involve human interaction at some stage in the process
  62. # [00:23] <webben> yes, but UIs are intrinsically much freer
  63. # [00:24] <webben> because the functionality on the backend can be guaranteed by the same developers
  64. # [00:24] <webben> (if the language was being designed from scratch, this would be a void argument of course)
  65. # [00:25] <jgraham_> An obvious example of a restriction in a language for increased usability is python+whitespace
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  67. # [00:25] <jgraham_> (irrespective of whether you think that is a design success, that's why it works the way it does)
  68. # [00:25] <webben> heh, well that's as controversial as restricting HTML5 to XHTML-esque markup styles.
  69. # [00:26] <webben> I'm not saying restrictions in languages are bad; I'm just saying that the need to make this language actually deliver imposes constraints on what restrictions are realistic.
  70. # [00:26] <othermaciej> Python in general tries to avoid having More Than One Way To Do It
  71. # [00:27] <jgraham_> Although a more accurate statement would be "more than one unnecessarily redundant way to do it"
  72. # [00:28] <webben> (It's also notable that since web consuming software is tolerant, the basic reaction to restrictions in this language is to ignore them. People pay attention to white space in Python cos not doing so breaks their programs.)
  73. # [00:30] <jgraham_> webben: To get back to the point, we have a feature with a small set of use cases but which is known in practice to cause significant problems for authors (and hence end users). We can either a) ban it entirely b) discourage it except when absolutely necessary or c) ignore the problems. I think b) makes the most sense
  74. # [00:32] <webben> it's necessary wherever scope would be necessary
  75. # [00:32] <webben> assuming one wants it to work
  76. # [00:32] <webben> (it's theoretically necessary only in a smaller set of cases I agree.)
  77. # [00:33] <webben> I suppose what you could have would be a WCAG1-style discouragement, "Once user agents support, don't use unless bla bla bla"
  78. # [00:34] <webben> but even then one's basically second-guessing what level of backwards-compatibility developers want to provide.
  79. # [00:36] <webben> Maybe one would be best served by actually explaining the problems and letting devs make up their own minds.
  80. # [00:38] <jgraham_> I don' think the spec is the right place to put UA compatibly information, but it could certainly go in the authoring guide
  81. # [00:38] <webben> Oh, I didn't mean say UA X supports this, UA X does not. More just explaining the general problem that some UAs do, and some UAs don't.
  82. # [00:39] <webben> (but all UAs should)
  83. # [00:44] <jgraham_> I still think the authoring guide would be better
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  123. # [05:57] <Hixie> i guess the fact that e.g. the http group are jumping up and down and talking about html5, should be taken as a good sign
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  133. # [06:34] <Hixie> wtf is UTF-4
  134. # [06:34] <takkaria> hah
  135. # [06:34] <takkaria> an academic exercise in the least efficient Unicode encoding
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  137. # [06:35] <Hixie> is there a page about it somewhere?
  138. # [06:35] <Hixie> good lord, people actually want to register about:blank
  139. # [06:35] <Hixie> what a waste of time that would be
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  141. # [06:36] * Hixie fears the day that tools like "curl" support about:blank
  142. # [06:36] <Hixie> about: should _so_ just be left up to the browsers...
  143. # [06:37] <takkaria> I can only find one mention of utf-4 on the web and that looks like the same typo in libxml
  144. # [06:40] <Hixie> yeah i couldn't find anything either
  145. # [06:40] <Hixie> wouldn't have asked here if i could :-)
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  149. # [06:52] <takkaria> Hixie: where did you find mention of utf-4?
  150. # [06:57] <Dashiva> takkaria: I suspect even utf-4 would be more efficient than utf-32 on boring english text
  151. # [06:57] * takkaria chuckles
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  153. # [06:58] <takkaria> it's quite true, that
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  168. # [09:06] <hsivonen> Hmm. Nokia buys Trolltech. I didn't see that one coming.
  169. # [09:09] <maikmerten> d'oh
  170. # [09:10] <maikmerten> well, I guess it makes some sense
  171. # [09:11] <maikmerten> albeit I was under the impression that e.g. Maemo was Gtk based?
  172. # [09:12] <maikmerten> notice how Nokia apparently is *not* partner of Google's Android
  173. # [09:13] <maikmerten> so I can only guess they're trying to grab whatever mobility mindshare is available for money to develop their own platform
  174. # [09:17] <hsivonen> for years Nokia leadership has talked about "level playing field" as a nice way of saying "we won't use Qt". I guess this levels the playing field to Nokia's taste...
  175. # [09:19] <hsivonen> so far Nokia has liked LGPL but not the GPL
  176. # [09:20] <hsivonen> It'll be interesting to see if the Trolltech business model stays
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  181. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - wow
  182. # [09:33] <virtuelv> they're set to pay around USD 155M
  183. # [09:33] <virtuelv> http://www.newsweb.no/newsweb/index.jsp?messageId=201563&;lang=
  184. # [09:33] <maikmerten> is Gtk really causing them that much damage? ;-)
  185. # [09:35] <hsivonen> the press release talk about accelerating strategy and improving the competitiveness of S60 and *S40*
  186. # [09:36] <hsivonen> Qtopia runs without X
  187. # [09:36] <hsivonen> but Maemo requires X and all
  188. # [09:36] <maikmerten> yeah, Maemo has a rather deep software stack
  189. # [09:36] <maikmerten> which of course is what makes so a tempting hacking device
  190. # [09:37] <maikmerten> but for real phones something "thinner" may just make more sense
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  194. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - "Nokia will have a live webcast today at 11.15am Helsinki time (+1 CET), which can be followed from the Nokia website at http://www.nokia.com/press. You may also post your questions while listening to the webcast."
  195. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> that's in 10 minutes, right?
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  197. # [10:09] <takkaria> MikeSmith: now only 8
  198. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> damn, seems it requires Windows Media Player support
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  200. # [10:13] <takkaria> I can pick up audio using VLC
  201. # [10:14] <Philip`> Tried mplayer?
  202. # [10:15] <takkaria> no luck there either
  203. # [10:17] <maikmerten> I find it somewhat amusing that Nokia isn't streaming some kind MPEG
  204. # [10:18] <Philip`> I thought they would use Theora
  205. # [10:19] <maikmerten> haha, yeah, that would put a big smile onto my face
  206. # [10:19] <takkaria> apparently this is actually just an audiocast
  207. # [10:19] <maikmerten> but given the position paper Nokia issued to the video workshop... nope, won't happen for now
  208. # [10:19] <maikmerten> bah, then I wonder why they're using Windows Media at all
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  210. # [10:20] <maikmerten> (one could argue that WMV + WMA would be reaching more people than every other video/audio solution)
  211. # [10:20] <maikmerten> (for audio this clearly isn't as... clear)
  212. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> (Nokia webcast starting now)
  213. # [10:22] <takkaria> maikmerten: how about mp3 streaming? :)
  214. # [10:23] <maikmerten> yeah, that would have been the obvious solution
  215. # [10:23] <maikmerten> but obviously I won't recommend any patented format, bias ahoi!
  216. # [10:24] <takkaria> not patented for too much longer
  217. # [10:24] <maikmerten> (that is: any patented format without non-free patent licensing)
  218. # [10:24] <takkaria> MikeSmith: tell us if any interesting comes up, please
  219. # [10:24] <maikmerten> yeah, I think MP3 may expire like in 2011
  220. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> takkaria - so far, it's mostly just the same information from the press release
  221. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> talking now is VP of devices for Nokia, Kai Öistämö
  222. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> I think he borrowed these slides from the marketing dept.
  223. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> "...enable Web 2.0 on the mobile"
  224. # [10:30] * virtuelv_ is now known as virtuelv
  225. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> mentions PC as a platform, along with mobile, as part of their "software strategy"
  226. # [10:31] <hdh> phonon in 4.4 on gnu/linux links with xine or gstreamer, and get theora for free
  227. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> "key driver is *not* to develop a Linux-based mobile device"
  228. # [10:34] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  229. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> "Qt is the only set of libraries available on all desktop platforms and mobile devices"
  230. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> "all major software platforms in the world"
  231. # [10:37] * Joins: Camaban (n=adrianle@host81-133-161-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  232. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> "will greatly improve the competiveness of Series 40 and Series 60"
  233. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> "continue to work closely with OSS community, especially KDE"
  234. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> now taking questions
  235. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> Mark [somebody] talking
  236. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> Eirik Chambe-Eng on also
  237. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> and Lee Williams from Nokia R&D
  238. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> "will continue to work on S30, S40, S60, as well as Maemo"
  239. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> will development of X11 of Qt continue? Eirik: Definitely, of course
  240. # [10:42] <takkaria> hmm, interesting
  241. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> how does Qt tie in with existing platforms like Maemo? when do we get to develop Qt apps for Nokia devices?
  242. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> Lee: Not prepared to talk about that now... stay tuned
  243. # [10:43] * Joins: emonkey (n=emonkey@ubuntu/member/emonkey)
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  247. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> Does this help to decrease porting costs for mobile gaming segment?
  248. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> Kai: That is a valid question... whole idea of this is that is reducing development costs for [third-party] application developers.
  249. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> .. but not willing to talk about specifics now
  250. # [10:45] * Joins: randomize (n=robbers@lin37.thphys.uni-heidelberg.de)
  251. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> Q: Will support of Windows PC continue? Kai: Yes, important
  252. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> Q: When is official public offer?
  253. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> will complete in 2nd quarter of this year?
  254. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> Q: Will any trolls be fired?
  255. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> Kai: one of the key reasons for this really is the talent... makes me laugh.. at the moment we have not plans to reduce a workforce we are just now acquiring.. of course not
  256. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> Eirik: Everyone at Trolltech is gung-ho about this
  257. # [10:49] * Joins: Chani (n=chani@twinsen.warpedgames.com)
  258. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> ... realization of Qt everywhere
  259. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> Kai's closing comments: Helping us and third-party developers more efficiently develop [across platforms]
  260. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> [end of webcast]
  261. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> hmm, not too much meat there
  262. # [10:50] <Chani> aw, I missed it?
  263. # [10:51] <hdh> thanks MikeSmith
  264. # [10:51] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247) ("Leaving")
  265. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> Chani - didn't miss so much.. most of what they said was in their press release already
  266. # [10:52] <blauzahl> MikeSmith: nice work!
  267. # [10:52] <takkaria> MikeSmith: ta
  268. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> log is here too:
  269. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080128
  270. # [10:53] <blauzahl> :)
  271. # [10:53] * Parts: blauzahl (i=zahl@m209-8.dsl.rawbw.com) ("You make my tired heart sing...")
  272. # [10:53] <Chani> cool
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  285. # [11:37] <hdh> audio recording in http://www.libqxt.org/stuff/ but in some weird IVR format
  286. # [11:49] <Philip`> Not Vorbis? :-(
  287. # [11:51] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-a4cf48187bfda820)
  288. # [11:55] <hdh> the recorder (zbenjamin in #qt) doesn't know how to convert it, and uses real player
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  291. # [12:21] <annevk> if registering about is what it takes...
  292. # [12:21] <annevk> re: Hixie earlier
  293. # [12:23] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-a4cf48187bfda820) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  294. # [12:24] <annevk> though curl about:blank would be a bit weird
  295. # [12:24] <annevk> much like curl data:... or curl javascript:...
  296. # [12:25] <Lachy> or curl mailto: But I wouldn't expect curl to support non-network-retrievable URIs.
  297. # [12:26] <Lachy> although curl data:... could be useful if you just want to quickly convert a data URI into a file.
  298. # [12:27] <annevk> also, content relies on about:blank, clients support it as URI, makes sense if it was registered leaving the "blank" space to HTML5 and the rest to client software
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  313. # [13:24] * Philip` doesn't like the cssutils parser since it seems to be quadratically slow
  314. # [13:25] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  315. # [13:30] <annevk> hsivonen, on about.validator.nu "identd" -> "identity"?
  316. # [13:31] <annevk> hsivonen, also, your copyright only extends until 2007?
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  319. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> new mobile browser announced today
  320. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> http://www.skyfire.com/product/
  321. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> link to a video there
  322. # [13:54] <Philip`> http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:DfrjbPJEZIsJ:www.dvclabs.com/mozilla.html - sounds like they're building it on Mozilla
  323. # [13:55] <Camaban> er, how many mobile phones have a stylus?
  324. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> heh
  325. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> Camaban - yeah, I had same thought
  326. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> It also doesn't seem to have any sort of adaptive/intelligent zoom
  327. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> i.e., on zoom, it doesn't wrap text to the width of the screen
  328. # [13:56] <Camaban> hmmm, and playing youtube videos?
  329. # [13:57] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: then it wouldn't be exactly as on your PC ;)
  330. # [13:58] <zcorpan> i wonder if it supports xhtml
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  332. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - yeah, I guess they're taking the "exactly as on your PC" part literally
  333. # [14:01] <Camaban> "For the first time, you can watch any video, listen to any music,"
  334. # [14:01] * Camaban is dubious
  335. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> Philip` - that seems to suggest it's based on Minimo (now end-of-lifed)
  336. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> or I guess they may have done something themselves with Mozilla embedded
  337. # [14:05] <Camaban> "The Skyfire private beta will initially support Windows Mobile phones in the U.S. In the coming months, we will introduce a version for Symbian phones."
  338. # [14:05] <Camaban> not exactly supporting all mobile phones....
  339. # [14:06] * Camaban pats Opera Mini on the head
  340. # [14:07] <Philip`> Opera Mini doesn't work on my phone :-(
  341. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> Philip` - which model is your phone?
  342. # [14:07] <Philip`> (or at least I couldn't get it to actually connect to the internet, which made it a bit useless)
  343. # [14:07] <Camaban> heh, I knew if I mentioned someone would point out an exception :P
  344. # [14:08] <Philip`> It's apparently a T630
  345. # [14:08] <Camaban> still, much broader support than "Windows Mobile" phones...
  346. # [14:09] <Philip`> Hmm, Opera Mini 3 claims it should work there, so maybe I just need to set up the internet access properly
  347. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> Philip` - there's a help page at the Opera site for resolving connection problems
  348. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> http://www.operamini.com/help/connect/
  349. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> this page has some info too: http://wapreview.com/blog/?p=466
  350. # [14:14] <Philip`> I think I just don't care enough about mobile web access to bother with anything like that :-)
  351. # [14:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks for relaying the Nokia/Trolltech info
  352. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> yup
  353. # [14:19] * Philip` avoids most needs for mobile devices by simply not moving
  354. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> Philip` - I guess I'd see a lot less need for mobile devices if I didn't have to move around so much. 90-minute one-way commute to office by bus+(crowded)train+walk kind of makes it seem more useful
  355. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> plus not having a car
  356. # [14:27] * Camaban finds it useful for the pub and wikipedia access :)
  357. # [14:28] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks, but neither identd nor 2007 is a typo
  358. # [14:28] <hsivonen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ident
  359. # [14:36] <annevk> oh, ok
  360. # [14:36] <annevk> why don't you retain copyright?
  361. # [14:39] <hendry> annevk: i have question regarding http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control/#access-item
  362. # [14:40] <annevk> please use http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/ instead
  363. # [14:40] <annevk> but go ahead anyway :)
  364. # [14:40] <hendry> ok, i didn't read "The following access items would make the user agent deny access to the resource:" :)
  365. # [14:40] <annevk> ok
  366. # [14:41] <hendry> so myspace.com/annevk type access items won't be allowed
  367. # [14:41] <annevk> that's actually slightly clearer in the revised version based on similar feedback :)
  368. # [14:41] <annevk> correct, it doesn't help
  369. # [14:41] <hendry> annevk: ok, i'm fine with that :)
  370. # [14:42] <annevk> myspace.com/evil could inject an <iframe> that loads /annevk and then execute some script that causes the load from /annevk ...
  371. # [14:42] <annevk> so making it origin based like the rest of the Web is better
  372. # [14:42] <hendry> agreed
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  383. # [15:56] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/specs/xml-stylesheet5 now features BNF
  384. # [15:56] * zcorpan hopes it is correct
  385. # [15:59] * gsnedders prefers ABNF
  386. # [16:00] <zcorpan> i just tried to mimic the xml-stylesheet 1.0 and xml 1.0 specs :)
  387. # [16:00] <gsnedders> ah, that isn't actual BNF (BNF has no reptition form for one)
  388. # [16:00] <gsnedders> and it's not EBNF's reptition form
  389. # [16:01] <gsnedders> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-notation
  390. # [16:01] <hsivonen> I submitted a presentation proposal to XTech after all
  391. # [16:02] <zcorpan> oh. EBNF is not what i want
  392. # [16:02] <zcorpan> i don't want [^...] to be Char
  393. # [16:03] <zcorpan> or i guess i can use my own Char and say Char - ( ... | ... )
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  401. # [16:46] <annevk> gsnedders, ah, you know ABNF?
  402. # [16:46] <gsnedders> annevk: ya
  403. # [16:46] <annevk> do you have spare time?
  404. # [16:47] <gsnedders> annevk: well, you're the one who advised me to spend more time on revising, but seeming I'm not doing so, sure :)
  405. # [16:47] <annevk> I need the productions in section 4 of http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/ converted to ABNF preferably
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  407. # [16:47] <annevk> this should be pretty trivial as the amount of productions is small
  408. # [16:47] <gsnedders> there's not that much there, so sure
  409. # [16:48] <annevk> feel free to e-mail public-appformats@w3.org, me, or paste it in here :)
  410. # [16:48] <annevk> as a "bonus" your name will appear at the bottom of the spec
  411. # [16:50] <gsnedders> oh wows!
  412. # [16:50] <gsnedders> I must do it now!
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  419. # [17:50] <Philip`> putImageData isn't going to work when we move to hexagonal pixels
  420. # [17:52] <Dashiva> What about two-layer displays?
  421. # [17:56] <kig> <script type="text/c">
  422. # [17:59] <kig> putImageData with lazy infinite lists would be a bit funny
  423. # [18:00] <annevk> from Gecko's public bug database it seems that removing almost standards mode would make quite a few people happy
  424. # [18:00] <annevk> (removing it by introducing the same quirk in standards mode)
  425. # [18:00] <hsivonen> annevk: URL?
  426. # [18:01] <annevk> see recent duplicates on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22274
  427. # [18:01] * Joins: blooberry (n=brian@c-76-126-109-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  428. # [18:01] <hsivonen> ah. bug 22274
  429. # [18:08] <annevk> with SVG inside table cells for instance
  430. # [18:08] <annevk> maybe i should just raise it on www-style and see where it goes
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  435. # [18:31] <webben> Wouldn't that just result in lots of bug reports of people with standards mode pages that are broken.
  436. # [18:33] <Dashiva> How would it ever be a feature, though?
  437. # [18:34] <annevk> webben, I don't think it will have averse effects
  438. # [18:35] <hsivonen> webben: do pages depend on the standards mode behavior on this point?
  439. # [18:35] <webben> why wouldn't they?
  440. # [18:35] <hsivonen> webben: IE7 has different behavior
  441. # [18:35] <webben> if pages depend on the non-standards mode behaviour, then wouldn't the inverse be true too
  442. # [18:36] <Dashiva> No, only if there is an inverse use case
  443. # [18:36] <webben> IE7 having different behavior might just result in hacks/conditional comments
  444. # [18:36] <Dashiva> Take our friend the global RegExp object for literals in es3, a prime example :)
  445. # [18:37] <annevk> is the inverse even noticable?
  446. # [18:38] <annevk> webben, for this case that seems highly unlikely
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  450. # [18:53] <zcorpan_> "First, XHTML doesn't
  451. # [18:53] <zcorpan_> really envision the idea of adding attributes to a document after it is
  452. # [18:53] <zcorpan_> loaded (after DOMready or the LOAD event fires). " -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0030.html
  453. # [18:55] * jruderman_ is now known as jruderman
  454. # [19:05] <annevk> earth >< public-xhtml2
  455. # [19:05] <gsnedders> soil!
  456. # [19:06] <Philip`> Makes sense for something that is document markup, rather than interactive applications shoved into what used to be document markup
  457. # [19:06] <SadEagle> DOM Core >< public-xhtml2
  458. # [19:06] <SadEagle> Philip`: then what are the events for?
  459. # [19:06] <annevk> Philip`, it somehow seems to conflict with XForms Actions
  460. # [19:06] <Philip`> Um... Maybe they're for backward compatibility
  461. # [19:06] <annevk> but perhaps that's less expressive than I thought
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  463. # [19:07] <zcorpan_> Philip`: but role is about interactive applications, at least when combined with aria
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  466. # [19:10] <annevk> i'd just reply that such a response doesn't work
  467. # [19:22] <alp> kig: i linked to CAKE in my blog post about canvas GL acceleration, http://www.atoker.com/blog/2008/01/28/accelerating-webkit-with-openvg/
  468. # [19:24] <kig> alp: nice!
  469. # [19:31] <kig> cairo openvg backend sounds awesome too
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  473. # [19:37] * zcorpan_ replied
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  479. # [20:07] <hsivonen> oh noes. they have an RFC 4646bis in the works already
  480. # [20:07] <hsivonen> http://www1.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-11.txt
  481. # [20:07] <hsivonen> can someone summarize what the changes are?
  482. # [20:10] <gsnedders> hsivonen: um, isn;t section 8 a summary?
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  485. # [20:15] <hsivonen> gsnedders: thanks.
  486. # [20:18] <hsivonen> my first reading suggests that I don't need to change my implementation
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  496. # [21:01] <Hixie> zcorpan, annevk: the tests suggestions you e-mailed me unfortunately aren't JS tests, so they are hard to add to acid3
  497. # [21:03] <annevk> <iframe> that reports back just like you have those other notification tests?
  498. # [21:04] <Hixie> i don't want to add more content to the <body>
  499. # [21:05] <Hixie> every time i add more content to <body>, i break half a dozen tests in subtle ways that i don't detect for a week or more
  500. # [21:05] <Hixie> this is why the svg tests are proving to be a bitch
  501. # [21:05] <Hixie> since people don't want to use data:...
  502. # [21:05] <Hixie> which i still think is dumb but i understand is hard and not in a spec...
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  506. # [21:17] <hsivonen> Michaeljohn Clement++ on -comments
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  508. # [21:19] <annevk> Hixie, better spec it then for Acid5
  509. # [21:19] <Hixie> yeah
  510. # [21:20] <annevk> i think you can test WRONG_DOCUMENT_ERR btw
  511. # [21:21] <annevk> since Firefox fixed it
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  513. # [21:21] <annevk> although it would only expose bugs in Opera + WebKit + maybe IE
  514. # [21:21] <SadEagle> annevk: wow? Firefox actually does that now?
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  516. # [21:22] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=47903 suggests that
  517. # [21:23] * SadEagle ponders closing the wishlist for the auto-adopt quirk, then :-)
  518. # [21:25] <Hixie> annevk: ?
  519. # [21:25] <Hixie> oh you mean check that you must cal import?
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  521. # [21:25] <Hixie> i'd rather change the spec
  522. # [21:25] <annevk> yeah
  523. # [21:26] <annevk> hmm, DOM specs
  524. # [21:28] <annevk> that works for me
  525. # [21:28] <annevk> you can add CSS parsing tests
  526. # [21:28] <annevk> such as "@media all { x } element { background:lime }"
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  528. # [21:31] <Hixie> i have a bunch of @media tests already
  529. # [21:31] <Hixie> i really just want to focus on dom and js
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  537. # [21:51] <Hixie> ok i need just a few more tests
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  555. # [22:41] <aseem> hi all
  556. # [22:41] <aseem> I had a ques about html sanitization using html5lib
  557. # [22:44] <aseem> anybody??
  558. # [22:45] <hober> What's your question?
  559. # [22:45] <aseem> I wanted to be able to strip out tags instead of simply escaping them...
  560. # [22:45] <aseem> I could use a treewalker to do that too, but was wondering if I could use the build in sanitizer to so
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  562. # [22:48] <aseem> I could also modify the code to do what I want, but that would be a tad bit unmaintainable in the long run
  563. # [22:53] <annevk> TAG discussing <meta> madness
  564. # [22:53] <annevk> could be interesting
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  567. # [22:56] <jgraham_> aseem: This is a pretty common feature request (well two people have asked), so a patch to do it would be welcome
  568. # [22:57] <aseem> ok... I will give it a go and if it works fine, submit a patch..
  569. # [22:57] <aseem> thx
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  571. # [23:03] <Hixie> i need to come up with one more thing to test
  572. # [23:04] <Hixie> i have room for up to three more things if anyone comes up with anything
  573. # [23:21] * jgraham_ dons his table headers hard-hat
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  585. # Session Close: Tue Jan 29 00:00:00 2008

The end :)