/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-01-29 / end

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  9. # [00:18] <jgraham_> Apologies in advance btw
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  12. # [00:35] <annevk> Hixie, loading Acid3 results in something weird
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  14. # [00:41] <annevk> crap, about: is not interoperable
  15. # [00:42] <SadEagle> what about 'about:blank'?
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  17. # [00:46] <annevk> hmm, seems to be some other problem
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  56. # [11:51] <heycam> Hixie, there seems to be an error in my submitted acid3 test (#69). the last string literal in the function-serialised SVG fragment should have an 'A' at the end (i.e., it should be '\uD800\uDC85A' instead of '\uD800\uDC85'), since the rest of the test assumes that there is an A character after the astral character.
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  62. # [12:50] <virtuelv> http://www.katemonkey.co.uk/article/48/x-ua-lemur-compatible
  63. # [13:08] <hdh> all of the Internets, lol
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  67. # [13:57] <Dashiva> virtuelv: Does Opera plan to support lemurs in the next version?
  68. # [13:57] <Dashiva> It could boost the user base quite a lot!
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  70. # [14:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: the W3C boilerplate for HTML5 uses <acronym> instead of <abbr>...
  71. # [14:15] <annevk> that's what the W3C boilerplate is like
  72. # [14:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: there are also two instances of "&lt/pre><", which wouldn't be OK in HTML5.
  73. # [14:17] <hsivonen> annevk: well, it seems that either the boilerplate needs to change or the spec needs to change. otherwise, the ingredients of a permathread are here.
  74. # [14:17] <annevk> cool
  75. # [14:17] <annevk> validator.nu can now validate the spec
  76. # [14:17] <annevk> pretty fast too
  77. # [14:18] <hsivonen> And I didn't even deploy Saxon, yet.
  78. # [14:18] <hsivonen> weird
  79. # [14:18] <annevk> maybe Hixie should hook it up to his publishing process
  80. # [14:18] <annevk> Saxon?
  81. # [14:18] <hsivonen> annevk: a faster XSLT back end
  82. # [14:20] <nickshanks> hat is it using at the moment?
  83. # [14:20] <nickshanks> +W
  84. # [14:20] <hsivonen> nickshanks: Xalan
  85. # [14:20] <nickshanks> i played around with XSLT engines a while ago, and found many bugs
  86. # [14:21] <hsivonen> nickshanks: what's your assesment of Xalan vs. Saxon?
  87. # [14:21] <nickshanks> Xalan wasn't one of them
  88. # [14:21] <hsivonen> nickshanks: was Saxon 9?
  89. # [14:23] <nickshanks> it was whatever was included with http://www.entropy.ch/software/macosx/#testxslt
  90. # [14:23] <hsivonen> nickshanks: that includes Xalan
  91. # [14:24] <nickshanks> hmm, so it does
  92. # [14:24] <nickshanks> okay
  93. # [14:24] <nickshanks> then it was unmemorable :)
  94. # [14:24] <nickshanks> Saxon was better, but libxslt was the best for my purposes
  95. # [14:24] <nickshanks> e.g. saxon introduced whitespace where it shouldn't have
  96. # [14:24] <hsivonen> I'm just about ready to push Saxon 9 out to Validator.nu
  97. # [14:25] <hsivonen> but now Xalan runs fast enough. when I decided to switch it was insanely slow
  98. # [14:25] <nickshanks> in XHTML, <q>Hello</q> should not become <q>\n\t\tHello\n\n</q>
  99. # [14:25] <hsivonen> really unbearably insanely slow
  100. # [14:25] <hsivonen> now I'm puzzled
  101. # [14:26] <nickshanks> one of them did that, libxslt didn't
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  105. # [14:56] <annevk> hsivonen, maybe your webhost pushed out an update?
  106. # [14:58] <hsivonen> annevk: changed load on host running the virtual machine would be an explanation
  107. # [14:58] <hsivonen> annevk: on the VM, I control the software
  108. # [14:59] <annevk> are you still planning on taking out schematron?
  109. # [14:59] <hsivonen> not from the entire service, no
  110. # [14:59] <hsivonen> but from the HTML5 presets, yes
  111. # [15:00] <hsivonen> unfortunately, user-provided Schematron is a DoS attack vector
  112. # [15:00] <hsivonen> but it would be a shame to disable it because of that
  113. # [15:01] <hsivonen> I guess trusting the host for benchmarking is a bad idea
  114. # [15:01] <hsivonen> I'm going to run some more tests on my development machine
  115. # [15:02] <hsivonen> but my dev machine runs a different JIT back end on a different CPU arch...
  116. # [15:07] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if the W3C WD and the WHATWG draft from earlier this month have notably different document trees
  117. # [15:07] <hsivonen> I'm able to reproduce the insane slowness with my old copy of the spec
  118. # [15:10] <hsivonen> ok. Xalan is sometimes insanely slow
  119. # [15:10] <hsivonen> but Saxon isn't
  120. # [15:10] <hsivonen> so switching to Saxon was the right call
  121. # [15:10] <hsivonen> I just need to polish things a bit before I deploy
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  126. # [16:20] * hsivonen likes the new Firefox 3 Mac look
  127. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - might be useful to get feedback to Xalan project
  128. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> let them know it is proving to be not usable for your application
  129. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> maybe they can give you some tips on profiling you could do
  130. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> but I think it would be good for them to hear from you at least
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  132. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> though seems like probably there's nothing they can/will do
  133. # [16:23] * hdh prefers the huge Back button design
  134. # [16:27] <Lachy> hsivonen, has a Firefox 3 build for mac been released with the new look yet?
  135. # [16:29] <Lachy> or are there final mockups available somewhere? Last I saw, there were just some outlines of the planned look
  136. # [16:29] <hsivonen> Lachy: nightlies
  137. # [16:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: my trial balloon about getting feedback to Xalan has gone nowhere
  138. # [16:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: specifically: http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/XALANJ-2419
  139. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - disappointing but not surprised to hear it
  140. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> I guess they just don't care
  141. # [16:30] <hdh> http://tomayko.com/weblog/2008/01/28/firefox3-mac-theme-lands
  142. # [16:30] * Lachy downloads the latest trunk
  143. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> thank god there's saxon at least
  144. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> or thank Michael Kay
  145. # [16:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm also mighty disappointed that Saxon doesn't do column numbers, but I'm just biting the bullet and patching it (not nearly as simple as it first looked)
  146. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> I swear I thought there was some extension for Saxon for column numbers
  147. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> maybe worth asking Norm Walsh
  148. # [16:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: line numbers only
  149. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> damn
  150. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> that sucks
  151. # [16:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I asked on xml-dev and Michael Kay replied already
  152. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> oh, OK
  153. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> no glimmer of hope there?
  154. # [16:32] <Lachy> ooh, it really does look nice :-)
  155. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> is FF3 UI diferrent from Minefield?
  156. # [16:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it seems to be a design decision
  157. # [16:33] <hsivonen> I have a counter-use case, though
  158. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> unfortunate design decision, that
  159. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> counter-use case?
  160. # [16:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: a use case that works as a counter-example for the rationale for the design decision
  161. # [16:35] <hsivonen> anyway, my patch now works
  162. # [16:35] <hsivonen> gotta update the build system still
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  165. # [17:02] <virtuelv> X-No-Thanks: http://www.b-list.org/weblog/2008/jan/28/ie8/
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  182. # [18:11] <csarven> Authors: Foo, Bar, Baz --- how would you mark this up in HTML4 and in HTML5?
  183. # [18:12] <Philip`> <p>Authors: Foo, Bar, Baz</p>
  184. # [18:15] <csarven> Philip` in which?
  185. # [18:16] <csarven> there are other possibilities in HMTL4; <hX><ul> or <dl> ..
  186. # [18:18] <csarven> re: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#the-dl "The dl element introduces an unordered association list consisting of zero or more name-value groups (a description list)" is rather vague imo. that suggests that one can mark a list of news stories with its headline and a summary of it with <dl> -- not that there is an issue with that but its just uncommon. most would approach that with a heading and paragraph for instance
  187. # [18:19] <csarven> in an <ul> or <ol> <li>s
  188. # [18:20] <Camaban> probably not appropriate to sue a list for that
  189. # [18:23] <hdh> the W3C specs use <dl>
  190. # [18:23] <Philip`> csarven: In both
  191. # [18:24] <Philip`> (and I'd probably use <p><b>Authors:</b> Foo, Bar, Baz</p> if I wanted it to stand out more)
  192. # [18:25] <csarven> hdh are you referring to an example in HTML4 at W3C?
  193. # [18:25] <Philip`> (because I wouldn't think of a good reason to do anything more complex than that)
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  195. # [18:26] <hdh> XML 1.0
  196. # [18:26] <hdh> the spec document, in its header
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  198. # [18:27] <csarven> Philip` see the first example in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#the-dl
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  204. # [19:15] <Dashiva> Hixie: Available?
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  219. # [20:15] <Hixie> heycam: fixed
  220. # [20:18] <Dashiva> Hixie: In the reflecting content attributes section, most of the cases have a "if attribute is absent, return default value, or <type-appropriate null value> if none" clause. But the "DOMString that doesn't fall into any of the above" says nothing about this.
  221. # [20:19] <Dashiva> Do you recall off-hand if that's intended?
  222. # [20:28] <Hixie> no idea
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  226. # [20:55] * MacDomeSleep is now known as MacDome
  227. # [20:56] <zcorpan_> Hixie: acid3 now reveals a parsing bug in opera that prevents the test from running at all. could you test that in one of the js tests instead using doc.write() or so? (namely < /script> closing the script)
  228. # [20:56] <Hixie> that comment will disappear in due course
  229. # [20:56] <Hixie> i'm editing as we speak
  230. # [20:56] <zcorpan_> ok. food for something to test otherwise :)
  231. # [20:57] <Hixie> that bug is already tested elsewhere actually
  232. # [20:57] <zcorpan_> ah ok
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  239. # [21:32] <Hixie> is there some thing wrong with acid3.acidtests.org/empty.xml ?
  240. # [21:32] <Hixie> as in, is my test invalid somehow?
  241. # [21:33] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-219-94.dsl.pipex.com)
  242. # [21:33] <Hixie> i don't understand why absolutely no browsers pass test 71
  243. # [21:34] * jwalden looks
  244. # [21:35] <SadEagle> konqueror 4.0.1 does :-)
  245. # [21:35] <Hixie> ok good
  246. # [21:35] <Hixie> glad at least someone does
  247. # [21:36] <SadEagle> might be a bug :-)
  248. # [21:36] * Quits: starjive (n=beos@81-233-18-73-no30.tbcn.telia.com) (Connection timed out)
  249. # [21:39] <jwalden> Firefox replaces it with 0xFFFD -- that's the replacement code point, right?
  250. # [21:39] <gsnedders> jwalden: yea
  251. # [21:39] * jwalden has no idea what the spec says about doing that
  252. # [21:45] * Joins: DIrtyF (n=DirtyF@gar31-2-82-224-211-195.fbx.proxad.net)
  253. # [21:47] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  254. # [21:50] * jwalden shoots the person who decided to use the word "entity" to mean two different things in the XML spec
  255. # [21:52] * SadEagle hands jwalden more bullets
  256. # [21:52] <jwalden> heh, you reading too?
  257. # [21:54] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  258. # [21:54] <SadEagle> no, just bad memories :-)
  259. # [21:55] <jwalden> It is a fatal error if an XML entity is determined (via default, encoding declaration, or higher-level protocol) to be in a certain encoding but contains byte sequences that are not legal in that encoding. Specifically, it is a fatal error if an entity encoded in UTF-8 contains any irregular code unit sequences, as defined in Unicode 3.1 [Unicode3].
  260. # [21:55] <jwalden> I call bug
  261. # [21:56] <jwalden> that's weird that only konqueror would pass that
  262. # [21:56] <SadEagle> may be because we're the only ones using QXML?
  263. # [21:57] <SadEagle> and I am not at all sure it passes for the right reason.
  264. # [21:57] <SadEagle> the test isn't exactly standalone
  265. # [21:58] <SadEagle> jwalden: heh, it fails when I open empty.xml
  266. # [21:58] <SadEagle> jwalden: I think it does the replacement char thing as well
  267. # [21:58] <jwalden> haha
  268. # [21:59] <SadEagle> jwalden: I bet the XML parser doesn't even -see- that character
  269. # [21:59] <jwalden> quite possibly not
  270. # [22:00] * jwalden guesses in Moz the stream converter is being initialized with the replacement char for errors and not 0
  271. # [22:00] <SadEagle> OTOH, is the replacement character legal there?
  272. # [22:00] <jwalden> think so
  273. # [22:00] <jwalden> why wouldn't it be?
  274. # [22:01] <SadEagle> well, KWrite passes that test :p
  275. # [22:01] <SadEagle> FFFD is legal, yep.
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  278. # [22:03] <Hixie> other than getComputedStyle() and img.height/width, is there any standards-compliant way to detect whether a style rule had an effect? i don't mind which style rule
  279. # [22:06] <Dashiva> I suppose that rules out all the width/height properties
  280. # [22:07] <Hixie> like offsetWidth? yeah.
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  283. # [22:15] <Dashiva> Only thing that comes to mind is server hits for resources (e.g. background-image) but that's probably the inverse of what you want to test
  284. # [22:17] <SadEagle> an implementation could reasonably load them even if a rule isn't applied, no?
  285. # [22:17] <jwalden> or not reload if already cached
  286. # [22:17] <jwalden> which might matter for a public-facing test
  287. # [22:18] <Dashiva> Caching could be defeated, but always loading would be a problem, yes
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  295. # [22:44] <Hixie> ok
  296. # [22:44] <Hixie> acid3 is basically done
  297. # [22:44] <Hixie> i have room for two more tests if anyone comes up with something good to test
  298. # [22:44] <Hixie> but other than that, it's done
  299. # [22:45] <Hixie> if anyone wanted to review the test, now's the time :-)
  300. # [22:45] <nickshanks> hixie: are you maintaining http://acid3.acidtests.org/
  301. # [22:45] <Hixie> yes
  302. # [22:45] <SadEagle> I could whine about the nodeiterator tests some more :-)
  303. # [22:45] <Hixie> are they broken?
  304. # [22:45] <Hixie> i thought i fixed them
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  307. # [22:48] <SadEagle> re-checking.. Last I looked, IMHO they relied on unspecified behavior
  308. # [22:53] <SadEagle> e.g. I don't believe that the state of the iterator is specified anywhere if the filter throws an exception
  309. # [22:54] <hsivonen> why does loading this page make Safari quit: http://my.opera.com/MacDev_ed/blog/2008/01/22/core-web
  310. # [22:54] <gsnedders> hsivonen: works fine in Saf3/Leopard
  311. # [22:55] <hsivonen> gsnedders: not for me in either Safari 3 or nightly on PPC Leopard
  312. # [22:55] <hsivonen> In NNW, I see the alternative content for SVG
  313. # [22:55] <hsivonen> works in Minefield
  314. # [22:56] <Hixie> SadEagle: what behaviour do you think the test requires that the spec doesn't?
  315. # [22:56] <Hixie> SadEagle: i thought i'd walked very carefully around the spec's holes
  316. # [22:57] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.111.191) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  317. # [22:57] <SadEagle> well, I'll start with this quote: "However, the exact timing of these filter calls may vary from one DOM implementation to another."
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  320. # [22:59] <Hixie> does your implementation have different timing than expected by the test?
  321. # [22:59] <SadEagle> sort of --- with respect to how it updates the reference node.
  322. # [23:00] <Hixie> in which test?
  323. # [23:00] <SadEagle> 1 & 2
  324. # [23:00] * SadEagle thinks some more
  325. # [23:00] <Hixie> 1 doesn't mutate the dom
  326. # [23:01] <nickshanks> Hixie: can you post percentages for the latest released versions of top browsers as of the release date of Acid3? i.e. "When first released, here's how some browsers score: ..."
  327. # [23:01] <SadEagle> yeah, but it throws an exception.
  328. # [23:01] <Hixie> and as far as i can tell, the mutations in 2 are such that it doesn't matter whether you do the filter calls "when a traversal operation is performed" or "when a NodeIterator's reference node is removed from the subtree being iterated over and it must select a new one", which are the only two allowed options.
  329. # [23:01] <Hixie> so?
  330. # [23:01] <Hixie> behaviour in the face of exceptions seems well-defined
  331. # [23:02] <SadEagle> does it? it only says to propagate them
  332. # [23:02] <SadEagle> I may be missing something, of course
  333. # [23:03] <Hixie> well what behaviour are you saying is compliant that would cause the test to fail?
  334. # [23:04] <SadEagle> updating the reference node position before calling the filter
  335. # [23:04] <SadEagle> that's in #1, that is
  336. # [23:05] * Hixie looks
  337. # [23:05] <Hixie> where?
  338. # [23:06] <SadEagle> / 2 in there would be enough
  339. # [23:06] <SadEagle> the line commented with //2, that is
  340. # [23:07] <Hixie> i don't understand how an implementation could ever _not_ get documentElement there
  341. # [23:07] <Hixie> the filter never gave you an answer for the first one, so how can you assume an answer?
  342. # [23:08] <SadEagle> I don't. You would move to the next position regardless of the answer.
  343. # [23:08] <SadEagle> The answer merely determines whether to return the node to the app.
  344. # [23:08] <SadEagle> I am pretty sure at least xerces behaves the same, I guess I should check.
  345. # [23:10] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.111.191)
  346. # [23:11] <Hixie> i can't see anything in the spec that justifies having the reference node be something that hasn't been returned except for two cases: one, before any node has been returned, and then it must be the root node, and two, after a mutation.
  347. # [23:12] <SadEagle> ok, that's a somewhat reasonable reading, though I am not sure that's what's intended.
  348. # [23:13] * Quits: kig (n=kig@dsl-lprbrasgw1-fe92fa00-192.dhcp.inet.fi) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  349. # [23:13] * SadEagle double-checks stuff on test 2..
  350. # [23:14] * Joins: kig (n=kig@dsl-lprbrasgw1-fe92fa00-192.dhcp.inet.fi)
  351. # [23:16] <SadEagle> that one is indeed my bug.
  352. # [23:16] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.111.191)
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  354. # [23:17] <Hixie> certainly i don't disagree that traversal/range is a badly written spec full of vagueries and holes
  355. # [23:18] <SadEagle> anyway, my tendency would be to read it as "if your filter isn't purely functional, good luck. You'll need it"
  356. # [23:18] <Hixie> oh i agree
  357. # [23:19] <Hixie> but i don't think that's a really good thing for a web spec to be saying, really :-)
  358. # [23:19] <SadEagle> And unfortunately, when it comes to vagueries, IMHO DOM2 HTML has it beat
  359. # [23:19] <Hixie> if it was server-side only, that'd be one thing
  360. # [23:19] <Hixie> yes
  361. # [23:19] <Hixie> the difference is
  362. # [23:19] <Hixie> dom2html is being replaced by dom5 html
  363. # [23:19] <Hixie> whereas nobody is working on dom traversal/range
  364. # [23:20] <MacDome> hsivonen: http://my.opera.com/MacDev_ed/blog/2008/01/22/core-web does not quit for me in TOT. however any time you see a crash, a bug at http://bugs.webkit.org/ is most appreciated
  365. # [23:20] <SadEagle> I don't know if too many people use it. Does IE support any of it? I know gecko doesn't support NodeFilter, and Opera's 9.2's impl seems buggy.
  366. # [23:22] <hsivonen> MacDome: that's the weird part. it's auto-quit. the crash reporter doesn't catch it
  367. # [23:23] <SadEagle> hsivonen: might be stack overflow
  368. # [23:24] * Quits: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-2a0ebfda46ce0515) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  369. # [23:24] <SadEagle> Hixie: hmm, my impl guarantees that all the nodes it returns are in the physical list, but I don't think that's required..
  370. # [23:25] <Hixie> SadEagle: lack of good implementations is what is blocking adoption, i'd wager.
  371. # [23:25] <Hixie> SadEagle: lack of a good spec might be blocking implementations
  372. # [23:25] <SadEagle> Hixie: well, actually let me ask you a question: what should happen if the node that just got tested is moved within the view?
  373. # [23:25] <SadEagle> s/view/physical list/
  374. # [23:25] <Hixie> mvoed when?
  375. # [23:25] <Hixie> in the filter, after teh filter?
  376. # [23:25] <SadEagle> inside the NodeFilter.
  377. # [23:26] <SadEagle> outside it's well-spec'd
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  382. # [23:29] <hsivonen> MacDome: filed http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17073 though not much useful info to report
  383. # [23:30] <Hixie> SadEagle: you mean, if the filter moves the node that's being tested?
  384. # [23:30] <SadEagle> yes.
  385. # [23:30] * Joins: grimboy (n=grimboy@78-105-162-250.zone3.bethere.co.uk)
  386. # [23:30] * jgraham_ had a vague notion that people disliked SVG fonts
  387. # [23:31] <hsivonen> jgraham_: oh yes indeed
  388. # [23:31] <Hixie> SadEagle: if the node is _moved_, i have no iea
  389. # [23:31] <nickshanks> i don't get SVG fonts
  390. # [23:31] <nickshanks> how re they better than truetype?
  391. # [23:31] <hsivonen> jgraham_: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5253 would be a much more useful approach
  392. # [23:31] <Hixie> the svg fonts tests can be removed, all it takes is for someone to send me a better test
  393. # [23:32] <Hixie> they were requested by opera
  394. # [23:32] <SadEagle> Hixie: let's make it simpler... what if it's just deleted, from inside the filter, of course
  395. # [23:32] <SadEagle> nickshanks: might be patent issues?
  396. # [23:32] <hsivonen> jgraham_: and as far as visual presentation goes, compatible with deployed SVG renderers
  397. # [23:32] <Hixie> and i checked, and at least safari and mozilla either implement, or plan to implement, svg fonts
  398. # [23:32] <Hixie> so...
  399. # [23:32] <Hixie> SadEagle: well
  400. # [23:32] * jgraham_ knows very little about SVG fonts
  401. # [23:33] <jgraham_> I just thought they were unimplemented and disliked, so I was surprised to see them in ACID 3 :)
  402. # [23:34] <hsivonen> SVG fonts in Acid3? well that sure is a surprise
  403. # [23:34] <SadEagle> hmm, this one I am pretty sure is just a test typo: expect(13, i.previousNode(), t4);
  404. # [23:34] * hsivonen didn't actually inspect the SVG tests
  405. # [23:34] <SadEagle> since the connects suggest it should be t3
  406. # [23:34] <hsivonen> I got distracted with reporting a WebKit bug
  407. # [23:34] <Hixie> SadEagle: the spec says "For instance, if a NodeFilter removes a node from a document, it can still accept the node, which means that the node may be returned by the NodeIterator or TreeWalker even though it is no longer in the subtree being traversed."
  408. # [23:35] <SadEagle> Hixie: yeah, but what happens to the reference node, in particular if it skipped over some nodes?
  409. # [23:37] <Hixie> SadEagle: the reference node doesn't change, according to the spec, since the node was removed while the reference node was something else
  410. # [23:37] <Hixie> SadEagle: so i guess the last test of test 2 is wrong
  411. # [23:38] <SadEagle> could you please re-check expectation 13 of test 2 first? :-)
  412. # [23:38] <SadEagle> hmm, for extra fun, the iterator can be reentered.
  413. # [23:39] <Hixie> oops, yeah, that should be t3
  414. # [23:39] <Hixie> yeah, i was just thinking about that
  415. # [23:39] <Hixie> the spec doesn't even mention that
  416. # [23:39] <SadEagle> anyway, implementation-wise, this sort of scenario is a pain, since you either have to watch multiple nodes per iterator, or re-check membership (which is where the move case comes from)
  417. # [23:41] <Hixie> i agree that it is a pain
  418. # [23:41] <Hixie> we need someone to step up and take this spec and rewrite it to be decent and proper
  419. # [23:41] <Hixie> andunambiguous
  420. # [23:41] <Hixie> i'll happily change acid3 to match whatever spec is made
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  422. # [23:43] <SadEagle> the Java/standalone impls are probably something to check..
  423. # [23:44] <Hixie> not really, since those don't need interop
  424. # [23:44] <Hixie> i would expect the dom specs to cut loose the non-web implementations
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  427. # [23:49] <SadEagle> I think if I was writing the spec, my tendency would be to say that if the list is modified from within a filter, an exception is thrown, and the iterator is reset to the beginning of the physical list
  428. # [23:51] <Hixie> that's also non-trivial, you'd have to actually pay attention to the whole tree
  429. # [23:51] <SadEagle> though you get the funny case of the filter throwing an exception -and- modifiying.
  430. # [23:51] <Hixie> personally i'd just say that you change the reference node before calling the filter, and that, like with treewalker, you keep following the reference node
  431. # [23:51] <SadEagle> Not really. You kind of have too, since the reference node may be nested within a tree that is removed.
  432. # [23:52] <SadEagle> heh, which is how I implemented it :-)
  433. # [23:52] <Hixie> you wouldn't have to track that either, with my version
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  435. # [23:52] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.140)
  436. # [23:52] <Hixie> and you could use nodeiterator outside of a document, too
  437. # [23:56] <SadEagle> don't see why that's not possible now.
  438. # [23:57] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  439. # [23:58] <Hixie> SadEagle: i mean, outside of the root
  440. # [23:59] * Joins: DIrtyF (n=DirtyF@gar31-2-82-224-211-195.fbx.proxad.net)
  441. # [23:59] <SadEagle> oh, I see, so you wouldn't move the reference node for deletions while the filter is running?
  442. # [23:59] * jgraham_ wonders exactly what Charles wants the HTML 5 spec to say about <video>
  443. # Session Close: Wed Jan 30 00:00:00 2008

The end :)