/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-01-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 31 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:34] <kig> canvas text, draw elements on canvas
  13. # [00:34] <kig> or not, heck do i know
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  15. # [00:36] <kig> point being that browsers already do all the weird text stuff, so there's no reason to re-invent the wheel
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  17. # [00:37] <Philip`> kig: Drawing arbitrary HTML elements onto the canvas, so you can e.g. draw a <p> with some CSSed text in it?
  18. # [00:37] <kig> yes
  19. # [00:37] <Hixie> that becomes complicated with things like iframes and plugins
  20. # [00:38] <Hixie> not to mention determining exactly what is rendered
  21. # [00:38] <Philip`> How would it know how wide an area to wrap text and render into?
  22. # [00:38] <kig> use the box model for the rendered element
  23. # [00:39] <Philip`> since presumably you'd be drawing an HTML fragment that's not part of the document, since you don't want your canvas text elements to be displayed in the page too
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  25. # [00:40] <SadEagle> might as well just position the elements over the canvas then :-)
  26. # [00:41] <kig> if you could change their composite op, use them as clip and draw on top of them, sure
  27. # [00:42] <kig> but i don't know. just string + font metrics would suffice for rewrite-the-world stuff
  28. # [00:43] <Philip`> You'd want to be able to transform the elements too
  29. # [00:43] <SadEagle> using as clip already requires stuff outside normal CSSed text, since you have to convert things to path.
  30. # [00:43] <kig> "justification? tex.js! text along path? arc-length reparametrized path interpolation is easy!"
  31. # [00:44] <Philip`> and for 3D canvas you'd want to do perspective transforms, which really doesn't seem like something that CSS should support itself
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  33. # [00:44] <zcorpan_> http://www.google.com/search?q=http%3A%2F%2Fminghong.f2g.net%2F
  34. # [00:45] <zcorpan_> i wonder if google supports prefixed xhtml
  35. # [00:46] <kig> i'd assume that transform matrices are orthogonal to text.
  36. # [00:47] <zcorpan_> i don't follow
  37. # [00:47] <kig> 02:41 < Philip`> and for 3D canvas you'd want to do perspective transforms, which really doesn't seem like something that CSS should support itself
  38. # [00:48] <zcorpan_> ah. i thought it was a reply to me...
  39. # [00:48] <kig> need sleep -> zzz
  40. # [00:48] * zcorpan_ too
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  57. # [02:16] <Hixie> Philip`: yt?
  58. # [02:18] <Philip`> Hixie: Yes
  59. # [02:18] <Philip`> (though somewhat tired and not able to think perfectly coherently)
  60. # [02:18] <Hixie> i'm going through canvas feedback
  61. # [02:18] <Hixie> and got to your comment about 0x0 patterns
  62. # [02:19] <Hixie> and i realised that the spec doesn't say how to handle broken images as patterns either
  63. # [02:19] <Hixie> so i'm just gonna make both do the same thing
  64. # [02:19] <Hixie> i'm debating raise an exception, and return a pattern that is indistinguishable from a 1x1 transparent black pixel
  65. # [02:19] <Philip`> Broken images should have .complete = false and so it'll throw an exception if you try using them
  66. # [02:20] <Hixie> oh oops, it is defined. i missed that second paragraph. duh.
  67. # [02:20] <Hixie> well then i'll just make 0x0 canvases do that
  68. # [02:20] <Hixie> but we have other feedback to the effect that we should make fewer things raise exceptions
  69. # [02:20] <Philip`> Sounds reasonable
  70. # [02:20] <Hixie> so what "that" is might change
  71. # [02:22] <Hixie> safari seems to treat createPattern() with a non-complete image as an infinite black pattern (same as 'black')
  72. # [02:22] <Philip`> Is it not just ignoring the attempt to set fillStyle?
  73. # [02:23] <Philip`> I though it returned undefined from createPattern, or something like that
  74. # [02:23] <Hixie> ah yes
  75. # [02:23] <Hixie> indeed
  76. # [02:23] <Philip`> s//t/
  77. # [02:23] <Hixie> it does that with a 0x0 canvas too
  78. # [02:23] <Hixie> k
  79. # [02:29] <Hixie> well the mozilla guys are against not raising exceptions for exceptional errorneous inputs
  80. # [02:29] <Hixie> so
  81. # [02:30] <Philip`> I thought the specific complaints about exceptions were things like negative-sized rectangles, where the spec currently throws exceptions but it's sensible to define non-erroneous behaviour
  82. # [02:30] <Hixie> yeah
  83. # [02:30] <Hixie> that will certainly be changed
  84. # [02:30] <Philip`> (as opposed to cases which are clearly errors and can't do anything sensible)
  85. # [02:30] <Hixie> right
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  131. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> wondering if anybody's see this:
  132. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> http://timepedia.blogspot.com/2008/01/chronoscope-demo-in-flash-whatwg-canvas.html
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  140. # [10:21] <krijnh> annevk: zet je presentatie van 8 feb ook online?
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  157. # [13:51] <zcorpan_> 0004 / 345 Bad value “en-GB-hixie” for attribute “lang” from namespace “http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace” on element “html” from namespace “http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml”: Bad language tag: Bad variant subtag.
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  159. # [13:56] <zcorpan_> Bad value “image” for attribute “type” on element “input” from namespace “http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml”. seems like a confusing message
  160. # [13:57] <Dashiva> annevk, zcorpan_, Lachy: Add me to your default acid3 cc list, would you? :)
  161. # [13:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: or that a bug in v.nu?
  162. # [13:58] <hsivonen> is type='image' still in?
  163. # [13:58] <zcorpan_> it complains about either value='' or type='' when both are set, depending on which came first
  164. # [13:59] <hsivonen> fail-fast behavior :-)
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  166. # [14:03] <hsivonen> hmm. perhaps I need to do some trick that reorders attributes before the RELAX NG stage
  167. # [14:04] <zcorpan_> i can't find where it says that image inputs can't have value
  168. # [14:05] <Lachy> Dashiva, what acid3 cc list?
  169. # [14:05] <Lachy> do you mean when we mail Hixie about bugs in the tests or something?
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  172. # [14:07] <zcorpan_> ah, it doesn't apply according to the attribute summary in wf2, so i guess the prose bans it somewhere
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  174. # [14:23] <hsivonen> hmm. someone has typoed and used a ns URI: http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespaces
  175. # [14:23] <hsivonen> that one would be hard to spot if V.nu allowed unknown namespaces to pass silently
  176. # [14:24] <zcorpan_> that might have been me :)
  177. # [14:24] <zcorpan_> if it was via the textarea interface
  178. # [14:25] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: it probably was. I don't log errors from POSTs, but it looks like I've accidentally logged unknown NS URIs from POSTed stuff
  179. # [14:26] <zcorpan_> (which wasn't a typo but experimenting)
  180. # [14:28] <Philip`> http://www.ninebynine.org/Software/HaskellUtils/HXmlToolbox-4.00/hdom/Namespace.hs - other people have made that typo
  181. # [14:29] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: it would be hard to spot only if the prefix was typoed, too
  182. # [14:30] <zcorpan_> since xmlns:xml="foo" is namespace-malformed
  183. # [14:33] <zcorpan_> hmm http://www.google.com/search?q=www.w3.org-1998-XML-namespace
  184. # [14:36] <hsivonen> POSTed unknown namespaces are no longer logged.
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  186. # [14:59] * Philip` sees that http://gnuplot.sourceforge.net/demo_svg/ uses <embed src=....svg>, and it doesn't work in Opera 9.2 (but does in 9.5 and FF2)
  187. # [15:05] <hsivonen> Philip`: with plug-in or without?
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  189. # [15:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: No plugins
  190. # [15:06] <hsivonen> ok.
  191. # [15:07] * hsivonen finds Verified Download Plug-in and Digital Rights Management Plugin on his plugi-in list
  192. # [15:12] <Philip`> Hmm, apparently I have plugins for QuickTime, RealPlayer, DivX and Windows Media
  193. # [15:12] <Philip`> seemingly due to mplayer pretending to be all of those
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  232. # [19:26] <Hixie> if anyone wants to try to reply to this rant: http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/programming-and-development/?p=599
  233. # [19:26] <Hixie> ..then please be my guest
  234. # [19:26] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  235. # [19:26] <Hixie> i can't work out what to say, he doesn't make any specific criticisms
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  238. # [19:32] * SadEagle chuckles at the "impossible to print" part
  239. # [19:33] <gavin> he seems to think that the "issues that [proprietary] technologies try to solve" are "become difficult for the disabled, hard for search engines to parse, and impossible to print"?
  240. # [19:33] <gavin> that argument makes no sense
  241. # [19:37] <Dashiva> Well, impossible to print is probably DRM :)
  242. # [19:38] <SadEagle> gavin: it makes a bit more sense later. I guess it's an issue of what he views html as for --- as a pure document display/markup language.
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  245. # [19:40] <Dashiva> But HTML fails at that too, compared to ps and pdf
  246. # [19:40] * Parts: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.234)
  247. # [19:42] <Dashiva> He clarifies in a comment that he didn't want HTML4 changed at all (but he likes video and audio.
  248. # [19:43] <SadEagle> Well, I'd personally much prefer a less ambitious HTML5, but that doesn't make HTML5 -bad-. People have different goals.
  249. # [19:46] <Dashiva> And the web is moving away from static documents, pretending a spec can change that isn't very effective
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  253. # [19:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: dude that is the most awesome data ever. well, for this week anyway.
  254. # [19:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: please do send more data on this at some point :-)
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  262. # [20:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks. I think I'll send some of my conclusions to the list as well. and yes, I intend to rerun the numbers later
  263. # [20:27] <Hixie> cool
  264. # [20:28] <Hixie> that e-mail alone has done more to convince me that we need to add Content-Type as a pragma to <meta> than any arguments up to this point
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  266. # [20:28] <Hixie> not that i didn't agree with it before, but data is convincing.
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  274. # [21:10] * jgraham_ reads the techrepulic article and thinks for King Canute
  275. # [21:11] <Dashiva> I notice one new reply suggests doing away with scripting entirely
  276. # [21:13] <mpt> I'm sure the XHTML2 WG would welcome new contributors
  277. # [21:14] <jgraham_> "In other words, no XHTML 2, just an XML representation of HTML 5. Bleh."
  278. # [21:15] <jgraham_> He can't join the XHTML2 WG because he doesn't believe it exists :)
  279. # [21:17] <hsivonen> that page has more than one body start tag...
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  288. # [21:41] <jruderman_> Hixie: i noticed that google search often returns sites with invalid certs. do you know whether the spider "knows" which sites have invalid certs, or just ignores certs entirely?
  289. # [21:42] <jruderman_> Hixie: i'm curious because some people at mozilla wanted data on how many public-facing sites have invalid certs
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  291. # [21:42] <Hixie> no idea
  292. # [21:44] <jruderman_> "HTML 5 takes this smart direction, locks it in a warehouse full of gasoline and ball bearings, and throws a match inside." sounds like a perfectly specific criticism. why are you resorting to arson?
  293. # [21:44] <Hixie> have you any idea how hard it is to destroy tag soup?
  294. # [21:44] <Hixie> heavy fire is the only option
  295. # [21:45] <Hixie> not sure where he got the ball bearings from though
  296. # [21:46] <Hixie> why would we want to use ball bearings to burn something
  297. # [21:46] <Hixie> that seems weird
  298. # [21:46] <jruderman_> hmm, maybe that was his criticism. why *are* you using ball bearings when gasoline alone would do?
  299. # [21:47] <Hixie> we're not!
  300. # [21:47] <Hixie> doing so would be silly
  301. # [21:47] <Dashiva> Maybe the ball bearings are needed to keep the soup inside
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  303. # [21:52] <Hixie> the tag soup is pretty viscous
  304. # [21:52] <Hixie> i don't think ball bearings would help
  305. # [21:54] * jwalden thinks it's just the mainstream-ization of IEDs
  306. # [21:54] <Hixie> IEDs?
  307. # [21:55] <gsnedders> I thought the gasoline was just there to lubricate the ball bearings…
  308. # [21:55] <jwalden> improv explosive devices, popularized by an insurgency in a certain Middle-Eastern state?
  309. # [21:55] <Hixie> why throw a match then?
  310. # [21:55] <gsnedders> Hixie: I dunno, some other person firelighting for fun>
  311. # [21:55] <gsnedders> *?
  312. # [21:56] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-219-94.dsl.pipex.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  313. # [21:57] <Hixie> fair enough
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  316. # [21:57] <Hixie> still a very confusing review
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  325. # [22:07] <zcorpan_> speaking of confusing, can someone make sense of this? http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=138
  326. # [22:11] * kingryan is getting an "internal server error"
  327. # [22:12] <zcorpan_> hmm, me too. worked when i posted the link
  328. # [22:12] <zcorpan_> now it works again
  329. # [22:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: btw, I reran the numbers. I haven't written my commentary for the numbers, yet, though
  330. # [22:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: the new numbers are in the same location
  331. # [22:15] <hsivonen> now with 400 distinct URIs
  332. # [22:15] <Hixie> uri?
  333. # [22:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/analysis.txt
  334. # [22:17] <zcorpan_> only 2 had duplicate ID
  335. # [22:17] <Hixie> zcorpan_: i got a 500 error trying to reply to that
  336. # [22:17] <Hixie> wonder why
  337. # [22:17] <Hixie> oh wait
  338. # [22:18] <Hixie> my entire site is giving issues
  339. # [22:18] * Hixie gets on it
  340. # [22:18] <Hixie> uh oh
  341. # [22:18] <Hixie> i'm guessing acid3 hit some site
  342. # [22:18] <zcorpan_> css3.info
  343. # [22:18] <Hixie> some... bigger site
  344. # [22:19] <zcorpan_> css3.info claims the test is completed now
  345. # [22:20] * eseidel thinks it's slightly scary that Hixie moved it to the main url :)
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  347. # [22:21] <Hixie> is there a unix tool like uniq that will count how many instances of a line there were?
  348. # [22:21] <Hixie> oh nevermind
  349. # [22:22] <Hixie> uniq will do it
  350. # [22:22] <Hixie> -c
  351. # [22:22] <Hixie> http://www.cdr.cz/a/23477 seems to be the source of most hits
  352. # [22:22] <Hixie> hahahahahaha
  353. # [22:22] <Hixie> netscape 4 just crashes on acid3
  354. # [22:23] <Hixie> good times
  355. # [22:23] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@m260f36d0.tmodns.net)
  356. # [22:24] <Hixie> http://www.genbeta.com/2008/01/31-acid3-test-nuevos-navegadores-nuevas-pruebas also drove a lot of traffic
  357. # [22:24] <Hixie> and http://zaistniejwsieci.pl/2008/01/30/acid3-gotowy-przetestuj-swoja-przegladarke/
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  359. # [22:24] <Hixie> all three drove hundreds more than css3.info
  360. # [22:24] <gsnedders> Eastern Europe, interesting.
  361. # [22:26] <eseidel> I guess adding Analytics to the test itself would kinda defeat the purpose :)
  362. # [22:26] <Hixie> :-)
  363. # [22:28] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  364. # [22:29] <gsnedders> eseidel: just use really complex ECMAScript for it! :P
  365. # [22:29] <gsnedders> then claim nobody visits it, because nothing ever registers as visiting it.
  366. # [22:30] <Philip`> IE 5.0 just has a script error and says "Scripting must be enabled to use this test."
  367. # [22:31] <Philip`> IE 5.5 gets "6 100"
  368. # [22:31] <SadEagle> konq 3.5.8 crashes :(
  369. # [22:31] <Philip`> Oh, it went up to "14 100"
  370. # [22:31] <Hixie> zcreplied
  371. # [22:31] <Hixie> er
  372. # [22:31] <Hixie> zcorpan left.
  373. # [22:31] <Hixie> oh well.
  374. # [22:33] <gsnedders> oh, and on a totally unrelated note, any suggestions for learning C++?
  375. # [22:33] <Hixie> fix some webkit bugs? :-)
  376. # [22:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: that's hard when you know no C++ :)
  377. # [22:33] <Hixie> probably a good way to learn :-)
  378. # [22:33] <Hixie> (i'm serious)
  379. # [22:34] <gsnedders> need some to start with, really, though.
  380. # [22:34] <SadEagle> gsnedders: what do you know now?
  381. # [22:34] <gsnedders> SadEagle: PHP, Python, and a little Obj-C
  382. # [22:34] <gsnedders> (but when I say little I mean really little)
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  385. # [22:35] <gsnedders> SadEagle: oh, and I know BASIC from school
  386. # [22:35] <othermaciej> gsnedders: in all seriousness, it's a pretty good way to learn, if you already know some programming
  387. # [22:35] * gsnedders spits at the ground at the very mention of BASIC
  388. # [22:36] <Philip`> Why do you want to learn C++?
  389. # [22:36] <othermaciej> gsnedders: though doing a few tutorial excercises in a language with explicit pointers might help preparation
  390. # [22:36] <gsnedders> Philip`: ironically for this discussion, WebKit
  391. # [22:36] * jgraham_ predicted that answer
  392. # [22:37] <SadEagle> gsnedders: good. That's the value of learning BASIC: it teaches you what a bad/primitive programming language looks like, so you can appreciate the important language features it lacks :-)
  393. # [22:37] * SadEagle kidnaps gsnedders
  394. # [22:37] <Philip`> gsnedders: You could learn by writing patches for Mozilla
  395. # [22:37] <Hixie> i'd definitely start on webkit rather than mozilla
  396. # [22:37] <othermaciej> gsnedders: pointers and memory management are the most likely things to trip up someone who's only programmed in higher-level languages
  397. # [22:38] <gsnedders> SadEagle: "jeff!!! was NOT here either, what have u done with him?! i hope u havent jeff-napped him or something, because beleive me, hes mine, FOR EVER!" (to quote a girl from school)
  398. # [22:38] <Hixie> unless what you're trying to learn is appreciation for sane code
  399. # [22:38] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@m900f36d0.tmodns.net)
  400. # [22:38] <gsnedders> (but she can't spell my name, and she calls me geoff, so ergh)
  401. # [22:39] <gsnedders> othermaciej: pointers I probably do more or less know enough about, it's the memory management where I'll need the most practise
  402. # [22:39] <Dashiva> Crazy++
  403. # [22:39] <gsnedders> Hixie: I've got that from code I wrote now around three years ago that I still maintain, having never totally rewritten it :)
  404. # [22:39] <Dashiva> Memory management is simple, it's just an eternal process of not slipping up
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  406. # [22:40] <Hixie> zcorpan_: replied to that forum post
  407. # [22:40] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: if i got the numbers right, about 27% used the html5 doctype in your sample
  408. # [22:40] <gsnedders> in C++, does anything free memory automagically? Leaving a function and local variables in that?
  409. # [22:40] <Philip`> Memory management is just pointers, and remembering what they're pointing at
  410. # [22:40] <zcorpan_> Hixie: thanks
  411. # [22:41] <gsnedders> othermaciej: as long as you can stop anyone from killing me for my useless bad buggy patches, I'll try sometime :)
  412. # [22:43] <othermaciej> gsnedders: there's stack memory and heap memory
  413. # [22:43] <Philip`> gsnedders: Whenever memory is allocated with "new", it has to be freed with "delete", and that's about the only rule; everything else is automatic
  414. # [22:43] <othermaciej> gsnedders: stack memory is freed when you call the function, but not heap memory
  415. # [22:43] <othermaciej> however, many C++ programs use a pattern where heap memory is pointed to by a stack object with a destructor that frees it automatically
  416. # [22:44] <gsnedders> I'm sure I'm more confused now than I was a minute ago.
  417. # [22:44] <Dashiva> Philip`: Unless you malloc :)
  418. # [22:45] <othermaciej> gsnedders: that's because it's confusing (tragically)
  419. # [22:45] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ah, make that 29%...
  420. # [22:45] <Dashiva> They didn't invent gc because doing it manually was fun
  421. # [22:45] <Philip`> Dashiva: or calloc or realloc or strdup or I can't remember what else, but I was trying to avoid details :-p
  422. # [22:45] <gsnedders> how useful do you think it'd be to get back in practice with the little Obj-C I once knew before trying to take on C++>
  423. # [22:45] <gsnedders> s/>/?/
  424. # [22:46] <Philip`> Just replace all occurrences of T* with std::tr1::shared_ptr<T*> and you'll be fine
  425. # [22:46] * gsnedders squints
  426. # [22:46] <Dashiva> I still have nightmares about stl core code
  427. # [22:47] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@m260f36d0.tmodns.net) (Success)
  428. # [22:48] <Philip`> It might be useful to do something with plain C (write chtml5lib!) if you want to learn how manual memory management works so you can understand what C++ is doing
  429. # [22:49] <gsnedders> Philip`: learning C how? :P
  430. # [22:49] <Philip`> By writing code :-)
  431. # [22:49] <gsnedders> while (need_to_learn) learn_another_language();
  432. # [22:49] <othermaciej> Philip`: now you're just trying to confuse him further
  433. # [22:49] <Philip`> #define need_to_learn 1
  434. # [22:50] <SadEagle> Philip`: unfortunately, the first thing C programmers learning to write C++ need to do is to forget C.
  435. # [22:50] <othermaciej> gsnedders: Obj-C and C++ are not that deeply conceptually different
  436. # [22:50] <othermaciej> (though ObjC developers will tell you otherwise)
  437. # [22:51] <gsnedders> what's Safari itself written in, BTW?
  438. # [22:51] <Philip`> You could try OCaml instead
  439. # [22:51] <Philip`> That's got a C in its name
  440. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Philip`: LOL
  441. # [22:51] <gsnedders> really _useful_ for C++. :P
  442. # [22:51] <jgraham_> Incidentally if you do decide to contribute to chtml5lib , it might bubble further up my priority queue
  443. # [22:52] * gsnedders ought to have a to-do list on backing-store and not just in memory
  444. # [22:52] * Philip` has a to-do set rather than a to-do list
  445. # [22:52] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Well they start all the comp-sci's here on ML (which I think OCaml is based on) so it must be good for learning something
  446. # [22:53] <gsnedders> jgraham_: here == Cam, right?
  447. # [22:53] <jgraham_> Indeed
  448. # [22:53] <jgraham_> Philip` could tell you more :)
  449. # [22:53] * gsnedders wonders if jgraham_ and Philip` will be around in mid-May, or if they'll have run away
  450. # [22:54] * jgraham_ will be around mot of May, but probably not the 27-30th
  451. # [22:54] <jgraham_> s/mot/most/
  452. # [22:54] <Philip`> The first term has ML, but the second has Java and most of the rest of the course is also Java :-(
  453. # [22:54] * gsnedders will be in Cambridge around the 14th, most likely
  454. # [22:54] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@m9b0f36d0.tmodns.net)
  455. # [22:55] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Any reason
  456. # [22:55] <jgraham_> ?
  457. # [22:55] <SadEagle> ML is quite tighly connected with formal types.
  458. # [22:55] * Philip` will probably be here nearly constantly for the next few years
  459. # [22:55] <gsnedders> jgraham_, Philip`: see you (mad) people :)
  460. # [22:56] <jgraham_> Philip`: All the people I know who did NatSci+25%CompSci 1A and then switched to NatSci still complain about the ML 7 years later :)
  461. # [22:57] * aroben|away is now known as aroben
  462. # [22:57] <jgraham_> ("All the people" being 2, so not a great sample)
  463. # [22:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yeah 29%
  464. # [23:00] <gsnedders> jgraham_, Philip`: But yeah, if either of you are around, I'm more than willing to meet up with either (or both) of you sometime while I'm there
  465. # [23:00] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Sure
  466. # [23:01] * gsnedders doesn't know for certain when he'll be there
  467. # [23:01] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@65.80-202-82.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  468. # [23:01] <jgraham_> Is it me or is the HTMLWG pretty much inactive at the moment?
  469. # [23:02] <gsnedders> I'm going down for a memorial service for my grandmother, at an undecided time, who lived in Cambridge for c. 50 years until a few weeks before she died
  470. # [23:02] <gsnedders> jgraham_: yeah
  471. # [23:03] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@m900f36d0.tmodns.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  472. # [23:04] <hsivonen> jgraham_: let's see how much reaction my suggestion to make border='0' and friends conforming gets
  473. # [23:04] * gsnedders runs off
  474. # [23:04] * gsnedders waves
  475. # [23:06] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@65.80-202-82.nextgentel.com)
  476. # [23:06] <Hixie> jgraham_: lots of activity on the -comments list (relatively speakiing)
  477. # [23:06] <jgraham_> hsivonen: Well I didn't get a single response, positive or negative about table headers, which I found a little surprising. I don't expect that meant tacit agreement from all parties though :)
  478. # [23:06] <Hixie> but i wouldn't complain about the group being inactive...
  479. # [23:10] <jgraham_> Hixie: The only concern I have is that all the detailed discussions that people will expect to happen before CR aren't happening and so the spec will get stuck later in a done but unpublished state (though maybe that doesn't matter if vendors don't care)
  480. # [23:12] <Hixie> the longer the bikeshedding is delayed, the better, since once the spec is implemented, it's set in stone.
  481. # [23:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't consider the header association algorithm bikeshedding
  482. # [23:13] <Hixie> sure, i was just talking about "the detailed discussions that people will expect to happen before CR" that aren't happening
  483. # [23:13] <Hixie> i assumed that meant bikeshedding :-)
  484. # [23:13] <hsivonen> ok
  485. # [23:13] <hsivonen> heh
  486. # [23:13] <Hixie> i'm not seeing any discussions that i want to have happen that aren't happening
  487. # [23:14] <Hixie> but then i'm still dealing with the discussions from 2 years ago
  488. # [23:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's your inital reaction to making border='0', language='JavaScript', etc. conforming?
  489. # [23:15] <Hixie> border=0 i'm against
  490. # [23:15] <Hixie> actually i guess i'm against both
  491. # [23:15] <Hixie> though language='JavaScript' is the default so it'd be harmless, i think
  492. # [23:15] <Hixie> what's the advantage, other than hiding those errors from users?
  493. # [23:15] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@65.80-202-82.nextgentel.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  494. # [23:15] <Hixie> er, authors
  495. # [23:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: border='0' is a cowpath if there ever was one
  496. # [23:16] <Hixie> border=0 is not the default
  497. # [23:16] <zcorpan_> it should be... :)
  498. # [23:16] <Hixie> that's a different matter
  499. # [23:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: hiding them leaves attention to stuff that matters
  500. # [23:16] <zcorpan_> it is in opera and safari
  501. # [23:16] <jgraham_> zcorpan_: Wrong tense :)
  502. # [23:16] <Hixie> hsivonen: if i was an author, i would want to know about spurious attributes like those
  503. # [23:16] <SadEagle> zcorpan_: it sort of used to be in konq, and people whined :-)
  504. # [23:17] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@m9b0f36d0.tmodns.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  505. # [23:17] <zcorpan_> SadEagle: really?
  506. # [23:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: depends a lot on whether updating existing site or syndicading content or whether creating a new bandwidth-optimized site
  507. # [23:17] <SadEagle> zcorpan_: well, not as much about border 0, but about a solid border and not a cheesy 3D effect, IIRC
  508. # [23:18] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@65.80-202-82.nextgentel.com)
  509. # [23:18] <Philip`> SadEagle: Indeed - subsets of ML are used here for teaching about types, and about functional programming and semantics and things, so I suppose it actually comes up nearly as much as Java (though far less in terms of time spent programming in the languages)
  510. # [23:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: i wouldn't object to a validator making a value judgement and moving all that kind of errors to a "site cleanup issues" section of the results
  511. # [23:18] <jgraham_> hsivonen: Also there is a marketing reason not to make too many presentation attributes conforming, because you loose but-in from the type of people who speak at web conferences and those people can have substantial effects on people's markup usage
  512. # [23:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: but i don't think we should make them allowed
  513. # [23:18] <Hixie> s/loose but-in/lose buy-in/ :-)
  514. # [23:18] <Philip`> gsnedders: Sounds like a plausible plan :-)
  515. # [23:18] <jgraham_> :-p
  516. # [23:18] <Hixie> though the loose butting-in of those people...
  517. # [23:18] <hsivonen> jgraham_: that's why only '0' or '100%' should be conforming
  518. # [23:19] <hsivonen> jgraham_: it doesn't allow full CSSless design
  519. # [23:19] <Hixie> i think that'd be too confusing a message
  520. # [23:19] <Hixie> "you can do this but only for these values"
  521. # [23:19] <Hixie> better to just have a clear message
  522. # [23:19] <Hixie> "no presentation stuff in html, use css"
  523. # [23:19] <jgraham_> hsivonen: HTML5 has too many weird quirks already
  524. # [23:19] <Hixie> yeah, really
  525. # [23:19] <zcorpan_> look what happened with <font>
  526. # [23:20] <zcorpan_> i think border='0' is in the same bucket
  527. # [23:20] <zcorpan_> to be honest
  528. # [23:21] <Hixie> what happened with <font>?
  529. # [23:21] <zcorpan_> people thought html5 was the worst idea ever because it allowed <font>
  530. # [23:22] <Hixie> people thought html5 was the worst idea ever because it didn't allow style="", too
  531. # [23:22] <Hixie> so i don't know
  532. # [23:22] <Hixie> but yes
  533. # [23:23] <Hixie> i agree with your conclusion
  534. # [23:23] <zcorpan_> lack of style='' didn't get the same attention as precense of font
  535. # [23:23] <SadEagle> did the lack of style thing change?
  536. # [23:23] <jgraham_> SadEagle: Not yet :)
  537. # [23:23] <Hixie> no, nor did the presence of <font>
  538. # [23:23] <Hixie> still not really sure how to deal with them
  539. # [23:23] <SadEagle> It seems some people replace style="" by a unique classname and such in the wild.
  540. # [23:23] <zcorpan_> in fact i haven't seen anyone complain about lack of style='' outside the wg
  541. # [23:23] <jgraham_> (validator.nu doesn't have an error or style="")
  542. # [23:24] <jgraham_> s/or/on/
  543. # [23:24] <Hixie> i'm still considering having a "low quality" version of html5 conformance, which you can use in rapid prototyping
  544. # [23:24] <SadEagle> (which produces some honking ugly stylesheets)
  545. # [23:24] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@on-irc.csarven.ca) (Remote closed the connection)
  546. # [23:24] <hsivonen> jgraham_: It's too obvious that style='' needs to be allowed, so I never bothered taking it out
  547. # [23:25] <jgraham_> Hixie: I on't see a good reason to disallow style="" really. Simply disallowing style isn't going to magically make all pages work in a media independent way
  548. # [23:25] * Quits: SadEagle (n=maksim@cpe-69-202-89-106.twcny.res.rr.com) ("bbl")
  549. # [23:25] <zcorpan_> s/precense/presence/
  550. # [23:25] <Hixie> jgraham_: nor is disallowing layout tables, but i still think we should do that
  551. # [23:26] <Hixie> style="" and .style have many use cases, but none actually apply to final-form web sites
  552. # [23:26] <Hixie> they all apply to prototyping, demos, media-specific code, etc
  553. # [23:26] <zcorpan_> .style is needed for animation stuff
  554. # [23:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: what about dbaron's point #2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jan/0598.html ?
  555. # [23:27] <Philip`> Modern web applications are all about early releases and constant updates and perpetual betas, so things are always in prototyping and never reach a final-form state
  556. # [23:28] <zcorpan_> i've also used style='' for things that are on final-form web sites but for things that are there on a temporary basis because i don't want to mess with the external style sheet and its caching...
  557. # [23:28] <jgraham_> I thought some of the use cases put forward in the WG were convincing in the sense that there wasn't an obvious, equally painless method of achieving the effect without @style (though there might be a non-obvious or hard way of doing it)
  558. # [23:28] <hsivonen> I'd be interested to see Sam's take on border='0' considering how often it appears on planet intertwingly
  559. # [23:29] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@m5b0f36d0.tmodns.net)
  560. # [23:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: btw, content-type is in
  561. # [23:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: great.
  562. # [23:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: with mandatory text/html as the type?
  563. # [23:29] <Hixie> zcorpan_: no, you can use override style. but eventually, we should use safari's animation stuff, too.
  564. # [23:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: yes
  565. # [23:29] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#meta0
  566. # [23:30] <zcorpan_> Hixie: override style?
  567. # [23:30] <Hixie> cssom stuff
  568. # [23:30] <Dashiva> But if .style is allowed and @style is not, you're left with something you can't serialize
  569. # [23:30] <Hixie> might not be implemented, though
  570. # [23:30] <Hixie> Dashiva: we already have that with <input>
  571. # [23:30] <Hixie> amongst other things
  572. # [23:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: "must have a value consisting either of the literal string "text/html;", followed by a single U+0020 SPACE character, followed by the literal string "charset=", followed by the character encoding name of the character encoding declaration." I can't parse "either"
  573. # [23:33] <Hixie> uh
  574. # [23:33] <Hixie> why is that word there
  575. # [23:33] <Hixie> ignore that word
  576. # [23:33] <Hixie> oh, copy/paste edit error
  577. # [23:34] <hsivonen> ok :-)
  578. # [23:34] <Philip`> Is content="text/html" not allowed?
  579. # [23:34] <Hixie> no
  580. # [23:34] <Hixie> not allowed
  581. # [23:35] <zcorpan_> can't that be abbreviated to "must have a value consisting of the literal string "text/html; charset=" followed by..." ?
  582. # [23:36] <Hixie> it could, except that it might word-wrap at the space
  583. # [23:36] <Hixie> and if i use a NBSP instead of a space, then people will get confused...
  584. # [23:36] <Hixie> and all kinds of problems like that
  585. # [23:36] <hsivonen> <nobr>!
  586. # [23:36] <zcorpan_> <nobr> ;)
  587. # [23:36] <zcorpan_> bah you beat me to it
  588. # [23:36] <Dashiva> white-space: nowrap;
  589. # [23:42] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i don't think the way html5 defines http-equiv reflects how browsers have to implement it
  590. # [23:42] <Hixie> hsivonen:
  591. # [23:42] <Hixie> 0020 / 400Bad value “_top” for attribute “target” on element “a” from namespace “http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml”: Bad browsing context name: Browsing context name started with the underscore and used a reserved keyword “top”.
  592. # [23:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: ^ that seems like a bogus error (_top is allowed)
  593. # [23:42] <Hixie> zcorpan_: oh?
  594. # [23:43] <zcorpan_> Hixie: e.g., i think we have to support things like cache-control as meta, and refresh as a http header
  595. # [23:43] <Hixie> as defined, nothing stops you from handling refresh as an http header
  596. # [23:43] <Hixie> and if needed, we could add cache-control
  597. # [23:44] <zcorpan_> ok
  598. # [23:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm pretty sure it wasn't allowe two hours ago
  599. # [23:44] <zcorpan_> i don't have data at hand but i'm pretty sure we'd get lots of bug reports if we dropped support for most http-equiv values
  600. # [23:44] <Hixie> hsivonen: i haven't changed that section of the spec this year :-)
  601. # [23:44] <hsivonen> whoa!
  602. # [23:45] <Hixie> zcorpan_: it would be helpful to know which are supported and which should be in the spec
  603. # [23:46] <Hixie> zcorpan_: there are certainly many that we _don't_ want to support, and quite possible some that we really do that aren't on the list
  604. # [23:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: fix compiling. thanks
  605. # [23:46] <zcorpan_> Hixie: true
  606. # [23:47] <Hixie> "0018 / 400Entity reference was not terminated by a semicolon." is an error I'd be interested in mitigating
  607. # [23:47] <Hixie> not sure how easily we can do so
  608. # [23:47] <Hixie> "0094 / 400Text after “&” did not match an entity name." too
  609. # [23:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: actually, I don't feel a need to eliminate the former. I want to eleminate the latter.
  610. # [23:48] <hsivonen> but even more, I want to make border='0' conforming
  611. # [23:48] <Hixie> why?
  612. # [23:48] <hsivonen> it is harmless except for bandwidth cost
  613. # [23:48] <Hixie> it's as harmless as <center>, no?
  614. # [23:49] <hsivonen> and editing it out of every single image embedding snippet offered on the Web is a waste of time
  615. # [23:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: <center> is a bit different
  616. # [23:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: <center> doesn't fix an awful browser default and it isn't as common
  617. # [23:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: OTOH, <center> makes centering easy while CSS doesn't
  618. # [23:50] * zcorpan_ still thinks the browser default should be fixed ;)
  619. # [23:51] <Hixie> zcorpan_: rendering section. send feedback. :-)
  620. # [23:51] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@65.80-202-82.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  621. # [23:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I think the browser default should be fixed for the sake of coming generations of Web authors
  622. # [23:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: and border='0' should be allowed to stop bothering the current generation
  623. # [23:52] <zcorpan_> makes sense, but i'm afraid that allowing border='0' is going to backfire because the current generation doesn't want html5 to allow "presentational markup"
  624. # [23:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: why would you rather the spec allow it as opposed to having the validator move that kind of error to a separate "harmless issues that you might want to fix to save bandwidth" area?
  625. # [23:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: the part of the current generation making top sites seems to be in habit of using it
  626. # [23:54] <Philip`> <meta name="content-type" content="..."> seems reasonably common - do browsers support that?
  627. # [23:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd rather have validator warnings about wasteful but otherwise harmless stuff
  628. # [23:55] <Hixie> hsivonen: well, i guess i could be convinced that this is similar to the style="" attribute, and could be convinced that it would be something to put into a "low quality" conformance level
  629. # [23:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm not a fan of conformance levels, so I'd prefer to bargain with errors
  630. # [23:56] <hsivonen> doh
  631. # [23:56] <hsivonen> warnigns
  632. # [23:56] <hsivonen> typo++
  633. # [23:57] <Hixie> i don't think the spec should allow useless stuff
  634. # [23:57] <Hixie> harmless though it may be
  635. # [23:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: we are already down that slippery slope with /> and xmlns
  636. # [23:57] <hsivonen> (allowing those is good, imo)
  637. # [23:58] <Hixie> i'm against the whole xmlns="" nonsense and /> nonsense that we have now, but at least that has some semi-sane value (in terms of making it harder to argue that a document is xml and not html when sent as text/html)
  638. # [23:58] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i thought you were against /> at first?
  639. # [23:58] <Hixie> wow, you have 4 instances of "Attribute “abbr” not allowed on element “th”"
  640. # [23:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: could be. I'm not any longer
  641. # [23:58] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok
  642. # [23:59] <Hixie> hsivonen: "Attribute "accept-charset" not allowed on element "form" at this point." seems bogus, isn't accept-charset allowed on <form>?
  643. # [23:59] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/meta-content-type.txt
  644. # [23:59] <Philip`> Hmm, content="text/html" isn't that common
  645. # [00:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: oops. schema bug. thanks
  646. # Session Close: Fri Feb 01 00:00:00 2008

The end :)