/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 01 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <zcorpan_> Philip`: hmm. opera thinks that's application/octet-stream
  4. # [00:01] <zcorpan_> content sniffing++
  5. # [00:01] <gsnedders> Saf3 too
  6. # [00:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: fix in build
  7. # [00:01] <Hixie> Philip`: i've made the space in the content-type stuff optional, given that data
  8. # [00:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: given Philip`'s data, the space should probably be optional
  9. # [00:02] <Hixie> hah
  10. # [00:02] <Hixie> way ahead of you
  11. # [00:02] <Hixie> :-P
  12. # [00:02] <hsivonen> thanks
  13. # [00:02] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Opera 9.2 says "Type text/plain" after popping up the file-download box
  14. # [00:02] <Hixie> I assume that "Attribute "alt" not allowed on element "input" at this point." was because the type="" attribute wasn't "image"
  15. # [00:03] <Philip`> so at least it's not lying about the type, but it is handling it wrong
  16. # [00:03] <Philip`> (for some definition of "wrong")
  17. # [00:03] <zcorpan_> Philip`: i pressed open, then it showed it as normal text/plain but the info sidebar says it's a/o-s
  18. # [00:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah
  19. # [00:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: another reason i'm against border=0 being allowed is that i don't want to have anything deprecated. if we're trying to phase something out, it shouldn't be allowed. that's why i was against adding the meta http-equiv=content/type thing, but eventually i just realised we shouldn't bother trying to get rid of it, and that's why i added it -- i don't treat it as something we're phasing out.
  20. # [00:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: i really do want to phase <img border=0> out
  21. # [00:05] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@m5b0f36d0.tmodns.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  22. # [00:05] <Hixie> same with <script language>
  23. # [00:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think we don't need to deprecate stuff that we don't particularly encourage authors to use
  24. # [00:05] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@m5b0f36d0.tmodns.net)
  25. # [00:05] <Hixie> deprecate = not particularly encourage
  26. # [00:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: we can just allow those, put in warnings and let them fade without deprecation
  27. # [00:06] <hsivonen> deprecate = source of endless debates
  28. # [00:06] <Hixie> if we want them to fade, then we shouldn't allow them, imho
  29. # [00:06] <Hixie> i think growing pains type stuff belongs in the validator as a ui distinction, not in the spec
  30. # [00:07] <hsivonen> I can let them fade, but I don't particularly want them to
  31. # [00:07] <Hixie> i do :-)
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  33. # [00:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: I already have the Lax Content-Type box for RFC 3023...
  34. # [00:08] <Philip`> jruderman: It's easy to find ~1000 https sites from dmoz.org, to look for invalid certificates, but I don't if that's enough to be informative
  35. # [00:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think needing a checkbox for turning a spec off is a sign of the spec needed adjustment
  36. # [00:10] <hsivonen> s/needed/needing/
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  38. # [00:10] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm not suggesting a checkbox
  39. # [00:10] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm suggesting that the report separate those errors out and list them after the other errors, as things that are errors but likely harmless.
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  41. # [00:11] <Hixie> "Bad value "2008-01-18T14:33:01-0800" for attribute "datetime" on element "time"" is an interesting error, maybe we should relax that syntax, if that is found to be common. more study required.
  42. # [00:11] <Philip`> Hmm, Opera displays http://philip.html5.org/data/meta-content-type.txt as utf-8 but Firefox displays it as iso-8859-1
  43. # [00:12] <gsnedders> Hixie: IMO we should allow all possible ISO8601 forms of calendar date + time
  44. # [00:12] <gsnedders> (but not other date forms like week dates and ordinal dates)
  45. # [00:12] <Hixie> that's a whole lot of syntax
  46. # [00:12] <Hixie> there's little chance of that happening
  47. # [00:13] * Philip` adds an HTTP charset
  48. # [00:13] <Philip`> ...and now Opera seems to display it as text properly, rather than sniffing it as undisplayable
  49. # [00:13] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.116.201.213)
  50. # [00:14] <gsnedders> Hixie: I don't think we need to change that much, though
  51. # [00:15] <gsnedders> or rather, if we require it to be a full date/time format
  52. # [00:15] <Hixie> not sure what you mean
  53. # [00:16] <gsnedders> we actually require everything up to seconds to be present
  54. # [00:17] <Hixie> i think ISO8601 allows more than you realise
  55. # [00:17] <gsnedders> like what?
  56. # [00:17] <Hixie> W23-2004
  57. # [00:17] <Hixie> and all kinds of other stuff
  58. # [00:17] <Hixie> it's a crazy spec that defines all kinds of random stuff
  59. # [00:18] <gsnedders> Hixie: "calendar date" as I said above excludes week dates like that
  60. # [00:18] <gsnedders> Hixie: "calendar dates expressed in terms of calendar year, calendar month and calendar day of the month
  61. # [00:18] <gsnedders> (to quote ISO8601:2004)
  62. # [00:19] <Hixie> you have access to the spec?
  63. # [00:20] <gsnedders> yes, I had to implement it once. Not fun.
  64. # [00:20] <Hixie> ah
  65. # [00:20] <gsnedders> Horrible spec, actually.
  66. # [00:20] * Hixie doesn't recall ever actually seeing it, only having second hand reports of it
  67. # [00:21] <gsnedders> First and second editions apparently allow even more than the forth edition apparently
  68. # [00:22] <hsivonen> the used to be final committee drafts on the Web
  69. # [00:22] <hsivonen> s/the/there/
  70. # [00:23] <Hixie> i should get google to just buy me a copy
  71. # [00:23] <gsnedders> <http://feedparser.org/docs/date-parsing.html> lists some forms that aren't valid under ISO8601:2004 and only under earlier editions
  72. # [00:23] <gsnedders> s/and only/but are/
  73. # [00:24] <gsnedders> the -yy ones are all invalid ISO8601:204
  74. # [00:24] <gsnedders> *2004
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  76. # [00:26] <Philip`> It'll be interesting to see how date/time formats develop once humans start regularly moving relativistically
  77. # [00:28] <jgraham_> s/once/if/ :)
  78. # [00:29] * Hixie has now read every error in henri's datafile
  79. # [00:30] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@m5b0f36d0.tmodns.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  80. # [00:31] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/meta-http-equiv.txt - "Содержимое-Тип"?
  81. # [00:31] * Philip` guesses that's Russian for Content-Type
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  83. # [00:32] <Philip`> http://tnt.udm.ru/ - ah, it is
  84. # [00:33] <Hixie> yay for curl | sort -n
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  87. # [00:36] <Philip`> Oh, good idea
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  89. # [00:36] * Philip` updates the files so they're sorted by default
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  98. # [01:46] <zcorpan_> http-equiv=page-enter is a hack to make ie not flash when navigating between pages
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  100. # [01:51] <Dashiva> Good times
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  107. # [02:20] <zcorpan_> http://eric.van-der-vlist.com/blog/2008/01/31/html-5-turns-documents-into-applications/
  108. # [02:20] * zcorpan_ is confused
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  110. # [02:24] <marcosc_> "While many people agree that web applications should be designed as documents, HTML 5 appears to propose to move from documents to applications. This seems to me to be a major step… backward!" :)
  111. # [02:24] <Hixie> gotta love the members of the xml crowd who are now desperately trying to back track away from xml requiring fatal handling of errors
  112. # [02:25] <Hixie> (the spec is pretty damn clear about it, it's not easy to argue out of it)
  113. # [02:26] <marcosc_> "no, by fatal we meant kill a kitten, not stop processing the document" :P
  114. # [02:27] <Hixie> so i don't really understand what that article is saying, other than apologising for xml, except maybe that html5 should not define interop as much as it does
  115. # [02:27] <Hixie> in which case my response to that feedback would have to be "Thanks but no thanks".
  116. # [02:27] <Ketsuban> But Hixie, I like having my weblog break every time some jackass posts a comment and forgets to close his <p> tag. :D
  117. # [02:30] <Philip`> marcosc_: That's not quite sufficient error handling - you'd have to add an OUT_OF_KITTENS_ERR exception to cope with all contingencies
  118. # [02:30] <marcosc_> hehe
  119. # [02:31] <Philip`> Ketsuban: You don't want weblog commenters to add <script>s to your page, so you've got to pass comments through an HTML parser anyway, and then you can whitelist and reserialise with correctly closed tags
  120. # [02:32] <Ketsuban> True.
  121. # [02:32] <Ketsuban> The headache only comes when your comment parser starts spitting out invalid code. =P
  122. # [02:33] <Philip`> Nobody cares about invalid code as long as it's well-formed
  123. # [02:33] <Philip`> and well-formedness is less impossible to get right
  124. # [02:33] <Philip`> (though evidence suggests nobody gets it right anyway)
  125. # [02:34] <Philip`> (but they just need better tools that output proper XML for them, and then it'll all be fine)
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  127. # [02:43] <marcosc_> "The HTML Working Group doesn’t expect that HTML 5 becomes a recommendation before Q3 20010 and before that date everything can happen." We have 18,000 years to build the spec!
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  129. # [02:48] <Philip`> If two interoperable implementations of a spec have been released, but they have been lost for thousands of years and are known only in legends, does that still let you go to REC?
  130. # [02:48] <Hixie> no, you need to be able to demonstrate interoperability
  131. # [02:49] <Philip`> You could have a copy of the test report that was printed out by an earlier civilisation
  132. # [02:49] <Hixie> no, _you_ need to be able to demonstrate interoperability
  133. # [02:49] <Hixie> (as in the working group)
  134. # [02:49] <Hixie> a test report is not such a demonstration
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  138. # [03:28] <Dashiva> So we need to contiuously demonstrate interoperability to maintain REC status? Like, daily?
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  141. # [03:49] <Hixie> Dashiva: nah, once you're in REC you're done
  142. # [03:50] <Dashiva> What about if you publish an update, like HTML 4.01?
  143. # [03:50] <Hixie> depends if it changes something normative or not
  144. # [03:52] <Dashiva> But would you need to demonstrate interop for the entire spec, or just the delta?
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  146. # [03:54] <Hixie> the spec
  147. # [04:01] * Philip` wonders how many successful SIGCOMM submissions have been missing entire sections and pages on the day before the deadline
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  154. # [04:48] <Hixie> blimey, firefox is way too eager to put <script> elements in the <head>
  155. # [04:49] <jruderman> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=402537 ?
  156. # [04:50] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.94.39)
  157. # [04:50] <Hixie> yeah. it's in acid3 even.
  158. # [04:51] <jruderman> hah, nice
  159. # [04:51] <SadEagle> ah. That might explain some difficulties I had w/my testcase in ff
  160. # [04:51] <Hixie> basically they will put <script>s in the <head> unless they've seen some non-whitespace text
  161. # [04:51] <Hixie> and they'll execute the script before the other elements are added to the tree
  162. # [04:52] <Hixie> it's crazy stuff
  163. # [04:52] <Hixie> gecko so needs to have its parser ripped out and replaced by an html5 parser
  164. # [04:53] <SadEagle> I think I got in habbit of having all my testcases run scripts from onload and not inline since getElementById("foo") would mysteriously not work.
  165. # [04:54] <SadEagle> Of course, I should shut up, since khtml's parser doesn't do so hot on acid3
  166. # [04:54] <Hixie> hehe
  167. # [04:55] <Hixie> is it very different from webkit's?
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  170. # [04:55] <SadEagle> not sure, same codebase, but details matter here. It does some pretty egreggious things. In particular, it finds the iframes tasty.
  171. # [04:55] <Hixie> k
  172. # [04:55] <Hixie> i know webkit had to change stuff in the parser as part of their acid3 fixes
  173. # [04:56] <SadEagle> With that fixed, it somehow eats the 'fail' child of the iframe, which is absolutely mysterious, seeing how the internal DTD allows it (unlike iframe-under-map)
  174. # [04:56] <SadEagle> hmm, may be I should debug that now.
  175. # [04:56] <Hixie> yeah, webkit does that too
  176. # [04:57] <Hixie> i recommend writing an html5 parser implementation from scratch, and using it in webkit and khtml :-)
  177. # [04:57] <SadEagle> I suspect both would behave pretty similarly with the DTD relaxed sufficiently.
  178. # [04:58] <SadEagle> And, to be honest, the parser is -mostly- fine. The tokenizer, OTOH, is a crime against humanity
  179. # [04:58] <Hixie> well the tokeniser part of html5 is even easier to implement than the parser
  180. # [04:59] <Hixie> and is relatively separate
  181. # [04:59] <SadEagle> do you expect it to have a chance at the stuff in the wild?
  182. # [05:00] <Hixie> yes
  183. # [05:00] <Hixie> it's what i use to run over google's index, and it's what html5lib implements, and what henri uses in his validator
  184. # [05:00] <Hixie> amongst other things
  185. # [05:01] <Hixie> there are open issues (see http://whatwg.org/issues and search for "tokeniser")
  186. # [05:01] <marcosc_> the acid3 reference rendering does not look as it should on my ipod? hixie, is that correct?
  187. # [05:01] <Hixie> but they are relatively minor
  188. # [05:01] <Hixie> marcosc_: checking...
  189. # [05:01] <SadEagle> I guess the most important thing is quick recovery. though messing up a </script> boundary could be trouble..
  190. # [05:02] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/parser/tokeniser.html lets you play with a non-document.write-supporting version of the HTML5 tokeniser
  191. # [05:02] <Hixie> wow, my ipod only gets 27/100. not the worst rendering i've seen, though.
  192. # [05:02] <Hixie> oh no
  193. # [05:02] <Hixie> 40/100
  194. # [05:02] <Hixie> it's just slow around the two perf tests
  195. # [05:02] <jruderman> ipod touch with webkit?
  196. # [05:03] <Hixie> jruderman: yes
  197. # [05:03] <marcosc_> yeah, not too bad :)
  198. # [05:03] <Hixie> marcosc_: looks fine to me, except the text goes out of the box
  199. # [05:03] <SadEagle> Philip`: may be I should be a good boy and pull up some of those nasty testcases :-)
  200. # [05:03] <jruderman> maybe you should make it indicate when it's doing the perf test
  201. # [05:03] <jruderman> (or pull the perf test from acid3)
  202. # [05:03] <marcosc_> hixie, I was wondering if the text going out was ok. So that's ok then.
  203. # [05:03] <Hixie> marcosc_: but that's caused by the wacky font zooming "feature"
  204. # [05:03] <Hixie> marcosc_: well, it's not "ok" per se
  205. # [05:04] <Hixie> marcosc_: but it's intentional on their part
  206. # [05:04] <Hixie> it looks like it's basically a minimum font size
  207. # [05:04] <marcosc_> Hixie, thanks for the clarification.
  208. # [05:05] <Hixie> (they couldn't claim to pass like this, but they don't claim to pass acid2, either)
  209. # [05:06] <jruderman> do you consider having a minimum font size by default to be a spec violation?
  210. # [05:10] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/font-size/a.html suggests it's not actually as simple as it being a minimum font size thing
  211. # [05:11] <Hixie> jruderman: not really, but there are certain cases (like the way gecko lets the min font size pref override even the font size of elements with no text) that i think are wrong
  212. # [05:11] <Hixie> not sure how strongly the spec backs me up
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  214. # [05:21] <SadEagle> Hixie: heh, I am pretty sure the text-under-iframe-eater is in the tokenizer. uh-oh.
  215. # [05:22] <Hixie> marcosc_: this is really weird behaviour. i don't understand why the text takes so much room on the ipod
  216. # [05:23] <marcosc_> Hixie, that's what I thought... which prompted me to ask ;) I thought maybe there was something wrong in the css or something.
  217. # [05:23] <Hixie> that text is definitely bigger than 16px
  218. # [05:23] <Hixie> but i don't understand why
  219. # [05:25] <marcosc_> unfortunately, I can't do any testing atm because I don't have wireless here
  220. # [05:29] <SadEagle> (grmbl. it explicitly discards stuff within an iframe... Wonder why, it should hide content just fine)
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  222. # [05:36] <SadEagle> yikes. going to the html5 spec with tokenizer on full debug is not fun
  223. # [05:39] <Hixie> hah
  224. # [05:39] <SadEagle> BTW, FF2.0 seems to parse everything inside <iframe> literaly. Well, at least the elements, anyway
  225. # [05:40] <Hixie> anyone here have a graphics package up who could throw me a data: URL to a 1x1 PNG of #000080 ?
  226. # [05:40] <Hixie> SadEagle: yeah, see the spec for what should happen
  227. # [05:40] <Hixie> html5 spec, that is
  228. # [05:41] <SadEagle> I see. That actually specs that.
  229. # [05:41] <SadEagle> I have a webbrowser, one sec.
  230. # [05:45] <Hixie> nevermind
  231. # [05:45] <Hixie> got one
  232. # [05:45] <Hixie> yay for convert(1)
  233. # [05:46] <Hixie> convert -size 1x1 xc:transparent -fill '#008' -draw 'rectangle 0,0 1,1' blue.png
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  235. # [05:47] <SadEagle> I did this: http://pastebin.ca/887193 -- before trying to get too cute
  236. # [05:47] <Hixie> hah
  237. # [05:47] <Hixie> yeah, i guess that would be another way!
  238. # [05:47] <Hixie> shoulda thought of that
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  240. # [05:49] <SadEagle> well, test 4 fails on expectation 43 now. progress :-)
  241. # [05:49] <Hixie> looks like the iphone's "minimum font size" isn't a fixed size
  242. # [05:50] <Hixie> it's just a dampening, as the font size gets smaller, it bumps it up a bit
  243. # [05:52] <Hixie> and it only does it if the text is multiline
  244. # [05:54] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/css/fonts/size/007.html is a minimised test case for the iPod acid3 reference image bug
  245. # [05:56] <SadEagle> uhm, hixie, in test 4, is the 2nd half supposed ot be all backwards-going?
  246. # [05:56] <Hixie> did i screw up?
  247. # [05:56] <SadEagle> 'cause you got a couple of nextNode calls in there
  248. # [05:56] <Hixie> fixed
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  250. # [05:56] <SadEagle> thanks
  251. # [05:57] <SadEagle> yey, 63!
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  253. # [06:02] <SadEagle> Hixie: where is the stuff for test 70 loaded?
  254. # [06:02] <Hixie> around test 65
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  256. # [06:03] <SadEagle> I see. a whee bit of cascade there.
  257. # [06:03] <Hixie> yeah. i tried to do it earlier to give browsers a chance to get it done in the 50ms i give them
  258. # [06:03] <Hixie> instead of requiring it to happen in 10ms
  259. # [06:04] <Hixie> (the resources for the test are all given cache ages of about a year, so everything should be cached if you're running the test the second time to get timings)
  260. # [06:04] <Hixie> (the final part of the test is getting the speed up, hence the timer at the end of the debug log. :-D )
  261. # [06:04] <Hixie> (acid3 has to be the most fucked up benchmark ever, but there ya go)
  262. # [06:05] <SadEagle> hmm, looks like fraime-onload being bad.
  263. # [06:06] <SadEagle> I see you've never seen the 24fun "JavaScript" benchmark :-)
  264. # [06:07] <Hixie> it's worse? because that would surprise me :-)
  265. # [06:07] <Hixie> http://www.city-data.com/city/Hardy-Iowa.html uses <canvas> for its intended purpose. sweet.
  266. # [06:08] <SadEagle> Hixie: it's first benchmark tries to measure how fast an empty'ish for loop counter runs. It 'helpfully' displays its progress on the statusbar once every 100 iterations or so. You can guess what it's -really- measuring, right? :-)
  267. # [06:08] <Hixie> (nice, firefox's "view image" feature on a canvas shows you the data: URI)
  268. # [06:08] <Hixie> SadEagle: hahaha
  269. # [06:09] <Hixie> nice
  270. # [06:16] <SadEagle> ugh, cnn.com is using flash for content stuff.
  271. # [06:19] <SadEagle> anyway, good night
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  284. # [10:25] <hsivonen> Surely Eric van der Vlist knows that fatal errors in XML were meant as "halt and catch fire"
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  294. # [11:01] <hsivonen> http://www.jezuk.co.uk/arabica/log?id=3591 looks like we need to beat the drum about the existence of the HTML5 parsing algorithm more
  295. # [11:12] <hsivonen> the Frech Wikipedia says: "Il semblerai qu'en 2008 le XHTML 2.0 soit abandonné au profit du HTML 5"
  296. # [11:12] <hsivonen> French even
  297. # [11:14] <Camaban> well, it does seem that way....
  298. # [11:15] <hsivonen> Camaban: yes. my point is that the French wikitruthiness is more pro-HTML5 than the English wikitruthiness
  299. # [11:16] <Camaban> ah
  300. # [11:17] <Philip`> Are there any people who were working on XHTML2 and then abandoned it once HTML5 started? Or had they all decided to stay away years ago, when there was no sign of the W3C ever doing HTML5?
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  304. # [13:45] <hsivonen> any suggestions for a UI name for the datatype that the content attribute takes when meta is in the content-type state?
  305. # [13:53] <hsivonen> "legacy character encoding declaration"?
  306. # [13:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: surely the meta charset should be ASCII-case-insensitive
  307. # [14:15] <hsivonen> why on earth are ' ` { and } allowed in MIME charset names?
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  310. # [14:43] <thomas______> hey folk, anybody here who has some experience using crossfade effects using a canvas
  311. # [14:44] <thomas______> because i currently wrote a mootools effect for that but its not the fastest one
  312. # [14:51] <Dashiva> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2397
  313. # [14:51] <Dashiva> Is it just me, or are they sending plain text as text/html?
  314. # [14:51] <Philip`> Dashiva: It's not just you
  315. # [14:52] <hsivonen> how the mighty have fallen
  316. # [14:52] <Philip`> For compatibility with web content, browsers will have to start sniffing plain text that is served as text/html
  317. # [14:52] <Dashiva> It's kinda bad when even the ietf gets it wrong :)
  318. # [14:55] <Philip`> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf-announce/current/msg04511.html - sounds like this is an expected time for problems
  319. # [15:16] <Dashiva> annevk: around?
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  323. # [15:31] <hsivonen> what's the right way to do case-insensitive attribute value matching in XPath? do I need to use translate?
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  326. # [16:09] <Lachy> Hixie, is acid3 finished now? I noticed that /003/NOT_READY_PLEASE_DO_NOT_USE.html is redirecting to /003/ now
  327. # [16:09] <hsivonen> hmm. I should probably make v.nu check the contents of well-known but obsolete container elements
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  332. # [16:48] <gsnedders> Lachy: it's under review, per what he said yesterday
  333. # [16:51] <Lachy> gsnedders, ok. I wasn't paying attention yesterday
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  338. # [17:08] * hsivonen notes that neither MIT nor W3C are acronyms in the dictionary sense of the word even if marked up as <acronym> in the spec boilerplate
  339. # [17:08] * Joins: grimboy (n=grimboy@78-105-162-250.zone3.bethere.co.uk)
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  341. # [17:10] * gsnedders doesn't even ask the eternal question of, "what is an acronym anyway?"
  342. # [17:10] * Joins: phsiao (n=shawn@nat/ibm/x-f48548b34fa8179a)
  343. # [17:11] * jgraham_ choses not to read any mail mentioning <acronym> vs <abbr> (I think this is the only topic I skip entirely)
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  345. # [17:17] <didymos> hsivonen, MIT isn't? How come?
  346. # [17:19] <hsivonen> didymos: it is pronounced em eye tee -- not mit
  347. # [17:19] <didymos> hsivonen, my Webster's lists radar and FBI as acronyms -- MIT seems to fall under the latter
  348. # [17:19] <gsnedders> hsivonen: oh, you've forgetting the issue that dictionaries don't agree on what an acronym is.
  349. # [17:20] <gsnedders> hsivonen: in some dictionaries MIT is, in others it isn't
  350. # [17:20] <hsivonen> didymos: Webster's is then closer to the actual usage than some other dictionaries
  351. # [17:20] * gsnedders has OED compact. edition downstairs (i.e., the full OED in 3pt type)
  352. # [17:20] <didymos> hsivonen, But I see your point on W3C not being an acronym
  353. # [17:21] <gsnedders> apparently the second edition OED changed the type to being even smaller so it was just one volume.
  354. # [17:21] <webben> no
  355. # [17:21] <webben> still 2 volume
  356. # [17:22] <webben> (there might have been special editions of 2nd edn. in one vol though)
  357. # [17:22] <hsivonen> does the New Oxford American Dictionary have anything to do with the real OED?
  358. # [17:23] <webben> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Oxford_American_Dictionary
  359. # [17:23] <webben> seems like a helpful guide to it
  360. # [17:23] <webben> (yes, something to do with it, seems the answer)
  361. # [17:23] <gsnedders> it was written from scratch, though
  362. # [17:23] * webben wonders whether they reflect the Websters vs Oxford difference in acronym.
  363. # [17:24] <hsivonen> webben: thanks
  364. # [17:24] <webben> it's worth noting that OED does include American usages and spellings
  365. # [17:24] <webben> I'd imagine these things are based in sharing corpus to some degree
  366. # [17:25] <gsnedders> yeah, even if the text it different
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  375. # [19:15] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  376. # [19:15] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  380. # [19:41] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  381. # [19:41] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
  382. # [19:59] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  383. # [20:12] * Hixie commented on http://eric.van-der-vlist.com/blog/2008/01/31/html-5-turns-documents-into-applications/ after al
  384. # [20:12] <Hixie> l
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  388. # [20:46] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  389. # [20:46] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
  390. # [20:47] <annevk> Hixie, http-equiv="Content-Language" does affect :lang() in some implementations
  391. # [20:47] <annevk> Hixie, we could of course revisit that as only testcases rely on it
  392. # [20:48] <annevk> maybe that would be better as its slightly less code and less weird cases to test and implement
  393. # [20:54] <annevk> Also, the new security policy is not good enough
  394. # [20:54] <annevk> Roundtripping of data: URIs is made impossible :(
  395. # [20:58] <krijnh> "The HTML Working Group doesnt expect that HTML 5 becomes a recommendation before Q3 20010 and before that date everything can happen."
  396. # [21:01] <gsnedders> Philip`: yeah, I haven't done any revision for the prelims which just finished
  397. # [21:02] <gsnedders> krijnh: yeah, I noticed that. Issues of storing years as a single digit.
  398. # [21:06] <jgraham_> For what definition of the word "everything" does "everything" have a chance of happening in the next 18002 years?
  399. # [21:06] <krijnh> I think I'll have a beard by then
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  405. # [22:03] * gsnedders notes RFC4287 (The Atom Syndication Format) despite saying what elements are doesn't require (or even suggest) that the elements must be used and interpreted as meaning what it says they are
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  407. # [22:23] <Philip`> Hmm, ten hours of reading and writing LaTeX makes my eyes hurt :-(
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  412. # [22:42] <Philip`> Also, LaTeX's interpretation of /[A-Z]\. / as being a middle initial in a name and therefore deserving of less whitespace than a sentence ending was clearly not designed by someone thinking of the modern computing world of acronyms :-(
  413. # [22:43] <Philip`> ...or abbreviations or initialisms or whatever they are today
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  417. # [23:15] <annevk> Microsoft bid on Y? wow
  418. # [23:15] <Dashiva> I liked Ballmer's comment
  419. # [23:15] <Dashiva> >> "Today, the market is increasingly dominated by one player who is consolidating its dominance through acquisition," Ballmer wrote in the letter.
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  427. # Session Close: Sat Feb 02 00:00:00 2008

The end :)