/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Feb 02 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:12] <webben> Dashiva: Yes. The solution to monopolisation is a bigger monopoly. ;)
  9. # [00:15] <webben> krijnh: ironically a later date than can be expressed with TIME DATETIME=
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  17. # [00:42] <Hixie> i wonder how to require that UAs support infinity on canvas.
  18. # [00:43] <Philip`> Any Turing-complete computer should be able to handle infinitely large canvases just fine
  19. # [00:44] <annevk> by allowing them to clamp?
  20. # [00:45] * Joins: Star (i=beos@81-233-18-73-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  21. # [00:45] <Philip`> annevk: What would ctx.rotate(Infinity) be clamped to?
  22. # [00:47] <Hixie> what should happen with that?
  23. # [00:48] <annevk> 2π
  24. # [00:48] <Hixie> so no effect then?
  25. # [00:48] <Hixie> i guess i could say that
  26. # [00:48] <annevk> actually, i'll leave this up to whatever Philip` says
  27. # [00:49] <Philip`> I don't have any good ideas
  28. # [00:49] <Hixie> well i've made rotate(Infinity) be ignored, and all others be honoured
  29. # [00:49] <Hixie> not sure what to do with NaN
  30. # [00:49] <annevk> makes sense to ignore that too, no?
  31. # [00:50] <annevk> if we don't want to throw anymore
  32. # [00:50] <Philip`> rotate("45 anticlockwise")
  33. # [00:50] <Philip`> Maybe it'd help debugging if that threw an exception since it's NaN
  34. # [00:50] <Hixie> annevk: there's a mathematically correct solution for infinite coordinates and transformations (other than infinite rotations)
  35. # [00:51] <Philip`> but that seems a pretty unlikely situation
  36. # [00:51] <Hixie> Philip`: i'm more thinking about maths that ends up doing 0/0 or some such
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  38. # [00:52] <jgraham_> NaNslipping into calculations silently has never helped me, so I'f favour an exception, but I don't think that's always right
  39. # [00:52] <Philip`> Only for some infinite coordinates - e.g. moveTo(-Infinity,-Infinity);lineTo(Infinity,Infinity);lineTo(-Infinity,Infinity);fill() has no mathematically correct solution
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  41. # [00:53] <Hixie> wouldn't it be a single diagonal line?
  42. # [00:53] <Hixie> tl to br
  43. # [00:53] <Hixie> ?
  44. # [00:54] <Philip`> What angle would the line be?
  45. # [00:55] <Philip`> and why wouldn't it be a different angle?
  46. # [00:56] <Hixie> pi/4, because otherwise the infinities would be different infinities? :-)
  47. # [00:56] <Hixie> (and crossin 0,0)
  48. # [00:57] <Ketsuban> Infinity could be defined as the screen edges. =P
  49. # [00:57] <Hixie> i could also just say that all infinities and NaNs cause rendering to stop for whatever the inf or NaN value touches
  50. # [00:57] <Hixie> basically, tell me what to do and i'll do it :-)
  51. # [00:58] <Ketsuban> So if the canvas covers the whole screen a line from (inf,inf) to (-inf,-inf) would be the top left corner to the bottom right corner. If the canvas is smaller then it captures that line bounded by the edges of the canvas.
  52. # [00:58] <Philip`> If you rotated that pi/4 line by a bit, it'd be a different line but it'd still be going from -inf to +inf on each axis, and unfortunately the IEEE people weren't considerate enough to allow lossless encoding of values like 2*Infinity :-(
  53. # [00:58] <Hixie> Philip`: sure, i was mostly being flippant
  54. # [00:59] <Philip`> Causing rendering to stop sounds about as fatal as throwing an exception, but without providing a nice message in the error log to help people debug it
  55. # [00:59] * Joins: aseem (n=chatzill@nat04.sfo1.metaweb.com)
  56. # [01:00] <Hixie> Philip`: ok, so what should i require?
  57. # [01:00] * kingryan_ is now known as kingryan
  58. # [01:04] <aseem> Hi. I am trying to write some tests for some modification I made to the sanitizer to allow stripping of risky elements
  59. # [01:04] <Philip`> I suppose I can't see anything particularly wrong with just ignoring any function calls (or assignments etc) with +/- Infinity or NaN, and I guess it'd be reasonably easy to implement since it's just a test at the top of each function
  60. # [01:04] <aseem> I was looking at the tests1.dat file in the testdata folder and am unsure as to what the rexml field represents
  61. # [01:06] <annevk> sounds like something for ruby
  62. # [01:07] <jgraham_> aseem: which file exactly?
  63. # [01:07] <annevk> http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/testdata/sanitizer/tests1.dat
  64. # [01:07] <annevk> i suspect it's about Ruby's XML parser
  65. # [01:08] <Hixie> Philip`: how's this?:
  66. # [01:08] <Hixie> <p>Unless otherwise stated, any method call with a numeric argument
  67. # [01:08] <Hixie> whose value is an infinite or NaN value must be ignored. Similarly,
  68. # [01:08] <Hixie> any numeric property setter called with a value that is infinite or
  69. # [01:08] <Hixie> a NaN value must be ignored.</p>
  70. # [01:08] <Philip`> Is that applying just to canvas, or the whole of HTML5?
  71. # [01:09] <Hixie> canvas
  72. # [01:09] <Hixie> 2D context specifically
  73. # [01:10] <Philip`> I don't see anything objectionable there
  74. # [01:10] <Hixie> k
  75. # [01:10] <jgraham_> aseem: It is something ruby specific so, given Sam wrote those tests and he has offered to port your code to ruby I wouldn't worry too much about it :)
  76. # [01:11] <Philip`> (create{Linear,Radial}Gradient and isPointInPath and getImageData seem to be the places that would need some otherwise statements)
  77. # [01:11] <Hixie> =oh?
  78. # [01:12] <Hixie> why?
  79. # [01:12] <Philip`> Because they have to return something of the correct type
  80. # [01:12] <Hixie> oh right
  81. # [01:12] <Philip`> so they'd have to return null or false or whatever
  82. # [01:12] <Philip`> s/or whatever//
  83. # [01:13] <annevk> i can't find the toDataURL() + drawImage(data: ) issue in the issue tracker
  84. # [01:15] <Philip`> annevk: That was resolved ages ago since the spec said it was permitted
  85. # [01:15] <Philip`> (but maybe things have changed since then)
  86. # [01:16] <annevk> it did?
  87. # [01:17] <Philip`> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-May/011308.html
  88. # [01:18] <annevk> i see, that's not what browsers do
  89. # [01:19] <Philip`> Browsers are bad and wrong :-)
  90. # [01:19] <annevk> and doesn't cover <img src=evil.com> that redirects to a data: URI
  91. # [01:19] <annevk> as far as I can tell
  92. # [01:19] <annevk> the origin section is pretty vague about what "image" means in this case too
  93. # [01:20] <Hixie> that presumably wouldn't be evil.com
  94. # [01:20] <Hixie> it would be victim.com
  95. # [01:21] <aseem> jgraham: so I guess I will leave them empty. thanks
  96. # [01:22] <annevk> Hixie, i guess so, yeah
  97. # [01:22] <jgraham_> aseem: Are you copying the whole file?
  98. # [01:22] <Hixie> brb
  99. # [01:22] <aseem> jgraham: yes that was my intent, and then I was planning to remove anything that did not need to be there
  100. # [01:24] <jgraham_> Hmm. You might want to think about adding the stripped behavior as an extra field in the current file. That way we're less likely o get tests for the two parts out of sync
  101. # [01:26] <aseem> I did think abou that. The reason I thought about forking the data file and the test too is because there are in line tests in the test_sanitizer.py. I could of course modify the addtest method to also accept a stripped output param, but was hesitant to change that
  102. # [01:27] <aseem> mainly because the change would require quite a few more things to be added to SanitizeTest class
  103. # [01:28] <aseem> that is something I might need to do even if I added the extra field in the data file also
  104. # [01:32] <Hixie> right, checked in the changes
  105. # [01:32] <Hixie> for infinities
  106. # [01:32] <Hixie> this changes how transformations handle inf, btw
  107. # [01:32] <jgraham_> aseem: I suggest you make sanitize_html take a kwarg strip=False
  108. # [01:33] <jgraham_> Then modify buildTestSuite to add the tests from the same data file but your new field being read for the expected value
  109. # [01:33] <jgraham_> Then modify all the inline tests to also have a strip=True version
  110. # [01:34] <jgraham_> (of course you need to actually implement strip=True in sanitize_html)
  111. # [01:34] <jgraham_> Does that make sense?
  112. # [01:34] <aseem> sure... that was the original plan, I just balked at the amount of change that would require :)
  113. # [01:35] <aseem> and chose to take the lazier route
  114. # [01:36] <aseem> also I think there might be a problem with the toxml method for tokens.
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  116. # [01:36] <jgraham_> ?
  117. # [01:36] <aseem> ie the original _base.Node.toxml accepts and encoding= param which none of the base class implementations do which may cause it to barf
  118. # [01:36] <Hixie> so for createLinearyGradient i support we just sayt that the two points are subjected to the CTM and that's that
  119. # [01:36] <Hixie> but for createRadialGradient...
  120. # [01:37] <aseem> sorry I meant derived class implementations
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  122. # [01:37] <aseem> We ran into that recently and I had to go back to the example that I had originally posted on the mailing list because there I can pass in an encoding parameter
  123. # [01:37] * Hixie cheats his way out and moves on
  124. # [01:41] <aseem> oops! I misspoke, its the Document.toxml() that has the encoding parameter, which is not available for others Node derived classes
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  127. # [01:43] <jgraham_> That makes more sense :)
  128. # [01:43] <jgraham_> I'm not quite sure we want to be using .toxml() at all at this point; the proper serializer seems like a better option
  129. # [01:44] <aseem> In any case I will try out the original approach (the one you outlined) and get it to work, before tackling the encoding related issue
  130. # [01:44] <aseem> which is what is in the example that I posted in the mailing list :)
  131. # [01:45] * jgraham_ wonders if people are using toxml
  132. # [01:46] <aseem> the using html5lib wiki page provides the serializer oriented example, however the code in the test suite looks quite compact and attractive :)
  133. # [01:48] <aseem> one good thing about the toxml approach is that the element attribute ordering is not messed up in the output. I have not been able to figure out how to do that with the serializer (yet).
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  141. # [02:24] <Hixie> how can Referer: possibly be relative
  142. # [02:24] <Hixie> i don't understand wha that would mean
  143. # [02:24] <Hixie> oh we can just make it "#PING"
  144. # [02:25] <Hixie> since that's non-conforming today
  145. # [02:33] <Hixie> bbl
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  174. # [07:44] <takkaria> Prince really is pretty fantastic
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  180. # [10:03] * gsnedders is reminded by that to report a bug with his print styles in WebKit :P
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  184. # [12:02] <annevk> Hixie, data:,ping
  185. # [12:06] * gsnedders treats the above as application/octet+stream as it has no defined MIME type
  186. # [12:08] <annevk> that'd be a bug
  187. # [12:08] * gsnedders needs http://bugs.gsnedders.com/
  188. # [12:10] <hsivonen> Lachy: there are articles pending review in the blog queue
  189. # [12:11] <gsnedders> hmm, if I declare a public entity, does it exist in a system entity?
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  192. # [12:47] <jgraham_> hsivonen: I think all three of those articles are spam (I only deleted the English one)
  193. # [12:47] <hsivonen> jgraham_: ok
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  195. # [12:59] <Lachy> the other two are spam as well. I was just about to delete the english one too
  196. # [13:03] <annevk> should we transition the WHATWG blog to HTML 5?
  197. # [13:09] <Lachy> we could do that.
  198. # [13:10] <Lachy> we had done that once before
  199. # [13:12] <Lachy> actually, it could be good to develop an HTML5 WordPress template
  200. # [13:18] <annevk> yep
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  208. # [15:24] <gsnedders> annevk: if you allow DOCTYPEs in XML5, can you _please_ allow parsed entities to have them
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  211. # [16:08] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0021.html
  212. # [16:08] <annevk> hmm
  213. # [16:11] <Philip`> The HTML-to-plain-text email conversion there is really broken
  214. # [16:12] <annevk> oh, that's how i see it too
  215. # [16:14] <Philip`> The plain-text <HYPERLINK "http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/tables/td.html"TD nowrap> is meant to be <TD nowrap> where the "TD" is a link
  216. # [16:16] <Philip`> (I don't know what validator it is that links to htmlhelp.com...)
  217. # [16:17] <annevk> http://htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/ ?
  218. # [16:17] <Philip`> Oh, could be
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  244. # [21:19] <Hixie> people really should stop appealing to webarch to defend their arguments
  245. # [21:20] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.37.140.85)
  246. # [21:20] <Hixie> it's a little like referring to a religious text
  247. # [21:20] <Hixie> it only works when the other person is converted
  248. # [21:22] <Dashiva> So Hixie, did zcorpan mention the issue with acid3 test 48?
  249. # [21:25] <Hixie> i don't think so
  250. # [21:26] <Hixie> what's the problem?
  251. # [21:26] * Philip` tries not to wonder what happens when you use arcTo to draw an infinitely long line while the CTM has a scale factor of zero
  252. # [21:26] <Dashiva> If the iframe onload to remove the class fails, the test will pass automatically
  253. # [21:26] <Hixie> Philip`: how can you draw an infinitely long line?
  254. # [21:27] <Philip`> Hixie: By using arcTo so that it draws a line to (x_{inf}, y_{inf})
  255. # [21:27] <Hixie> Philip`: calls to arcTo() with Infinity as an argument would get ignored per the latest tet
  256. # [21:27] <Hixie> Dashiva: hm
  257. # [21:28] <Philip`> Hixie: arcTo with finite arguments is explicitly defined to draw an infinite line in certain cases
  258. # [21:28] <Hixie> Philip`: oh
  259. # [21:28] <Philip`> Anyway, I'd be happiest to ignore it and have it implicitly undefined behaviour because it's not really going to matter for real-world interoperability
  260. # [21:29] <Hixie> Philip`: ignore the infinite cases or ignore the CTM 0 case?
  261. # [21:30] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  262. # [21:30] <Philip`> Hixie: The cases with both infinite lines and CTM 0
  263. # [21:31] <Philip`> (Each by itself is alright and is useful to define)
  264. # [21:31] <Hixie> ah
  265. # [21:31] <Hixie> send mail :-)
  266. # [21:31] <Hixie> Dashiva: any suggestions?
  267. # [21:33] <Dashiva> Well, the error I'm seeing is gEBI failing, which could be solved by using a closure instead.
  268. # [21:34] <Dashiva> I thought there was a test for gEBI updating, but I can't seem to find it.
  269. # [21:35] <Philip`> Hixie: By "ignore it", I mean "not send mail", because sending mail would be the opposite of ignoring the problem, and the mail would just suggest doing nothing at all and ignoring the problem since it's a worthless edge case :-)
  270. # [21:44] <Hixie> Dashiva: ok, it'll make test 80 fail if it doesn't work now
  271. # [21:44] <Hixie> Philip`: oh, i just meant we should make the spec say to draw nothing in that case
  272. # [21:45] <Hixie> Dashiva: what browser was this for?
  273. # [21:45] <Dashiva> Opera
  274. # [21:46] <Dashiva> It does pass the actual thing test 48 is for, funny enough
  275. # [21:46] <Hixie> yep, opera now says "linktest didn't fire onload"
  276. # [21:47] <Dashiva> Well, what happens is that onload does fire, but the onload handler errors because it can't find the linktest element
  277. # [21:47] <Philip`> Hixie: I think that would be unpleasantly complex (hence not worthwhile) to define, since it depends on the direction of the infinite line and whether the CTM is zero in that direction (e.g. scale(0,1) would cause problems for infinite horizontal lines, but would be perfectly sensible for infinite vertical lines)
  278. # [21:48] <Philip`> But I've failed at ignoring the problem since I've started discussing here, so I'll just send mail instead :-)
  279. # [21:48] <Dashiva> Maybe it could set a variable in the onload, then attempt to remove the class attr
  280. # [21:48] <Dashiva> That way you could see if onload never fired, or just failed to succeed
  281. # [21:52] <Hixie> Dashiva: i'll leave that to the people debugging the test
  282. # [21:52] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.37.140.85)
  283. # [21:52] <annevk> Hixie, where is webarch used?
  284. # [21:54] <Hixie> in the religious acts of the ivory tower's inhabitants, i presume
  285. # [21:57] <Hixie> i'd like to thank you all, especially hsivonen and Philip`, for moving the focus of the discussion on public-html to studying actual data
  286. # [21:57] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.37.140.85)
  287. # [21:57] <Hixie> it is so refreshing to see "expert opinions" be replaced by actual data
  288. # [21:59] <Philip`> (Aha! I don't actually need to send mail about the infinite arcTo thing, since a zero scale will make points coincident in the only case that would have been a problem, and so it's no longer an issue, so please feel free to ignore me)
  289. # [22:01] <Hixie> works for me!
  290. # [22:01] <Hixie> what does chris mean when he says:
  291. # [22:01] <Hixie> The rounding arc should be chosen
  292. # [22:01] <Hixie> so that it is not contained in the convex hull of the stroke path segments
  293. # [22:01] <Hixie> terminated at the points where the arc begins.
  294. # [22:02] <Philip`> About the "it used to say "another" point": it did say that, but I think it's acceptable to think of a point P and 'another' point Q regardless of whether P=Q, so it's better to be explicit :-)
  295. # [22:03] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.37.140.85)
  296. # [22:04] <Philip`> Hixie: I'm not exactly sure about the "stroke path segments terminated at the points where the arc begins", but the idea sounds correct
  297. # [22:05] <Philip`> If you start with just the end edges of the stroke that are perpendicular to their lines, then the convex hull will be the smallest triangle or quadrilateral that surrounds those edges
  298. # [22:06] <Philip`> and then the arc will be not inside that convex hull
  299. # [22:06] <Philip`> Oh, but actually that's not right
  300. # [22:07] <Philip`> since both possible arcs would be outside that shape
  301. # [22:09] * Philip` tries to reply to that email
  302. # [22:16] <Philip`> Oh, actually, I think it is right, as long as you include a non-zero part of the stroke when calculating the convex hull (which is always possible since lines never have zero length)
  303. # [22:16] * Philip` throws away his ASCII art pictures of circles :-(
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  305. # [22:49] <Hixie> i have no idea what that e-mail means
  306. # [22:49] <Hixie> i don't know how to change the spec to address that e-mail
  307. # [22:53] <hsivonen> hmm. I'm not getting mail from W3C lists.
  308. # [22:54] <hsivonen> are others getting W3C list mail normally?
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  312. # [22:56] <Hixie> hsivonen: yes
  313. # [22:56] <jgraham_> hsivonen: I'm getting public-html ok
  314. # [22:56] <hsivonen> ok. thanks
  315. # [22:56] <Hixie> hsivonen: including from you :-)
  316. # [22:57] <Hixie> btw, for the spaces-in-URIs thing... do we really want to define URI5?
  317. # [22:57] <Hixie> or IRI5 i guess
  318. # [22:57] <Hixie> we could fix other problems at the same time, like the encoding issue
  319. # [22:57] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'd just do what XML does for system identifiers
  320. # [22:58] <hsivonen> I don't know, but I think it is worth spending a thought or two on
  321. # [22:58] <gsnedders> (non-fatal error handling in XML!)
  322. # [22:58] <Hixie> what's that?
  323. # [22:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: well we're talking about making this a non-error
  324. # [22:58] <gsnedders> ah
  325. # [22:58] <gsnedders> I'd keep it as an error
  326. # [22:58] <hsivonen> gsnedders: the IRI lib I'm using can even be configured to check for XML system ID conformance separately from IRI conformance!
  327. # [22:58] * jgraham_ wonders if the "All software expands until it can read mail" thing will apply to html5, so eventually we'll end up doing IMAP5
  328. # [22:59] <Dashiva> jgraham: We already have sockets, what more do we need? :)
  329. # [22:59] <hsivonen> gsnedders: Is the XML thing really error handling or just a processing step?
  330. # [22:59] <gsnedders> woah.
  331. # [22:59] <gsnedders> I misremembered what XML said.
  332. # [23:00] <gsnedders> "System identifiers (and other XML strings meant to be used as URI references) may contain characters that, according to [IETF RFC 3986], must be escaped before a URI can be used to retrieve the referenced resource. The characters to be escaped are the control characters #x0 to #x1F and #x7F (most of which cannot appear in XML), space #x20, the delimiters '<' #x3C, '>' #x3E and '"' #x22, the unwise characters '{' #x7B,
  333. # [23:00] <gsnedders> That means that XML System IDs can contain spaces!
  334. # [23:01] <gsnedders> hsivonen: just a processing step, looking it up
  335. # [23:02] <gsnedders> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#dt-sysid
  336. # [23:04] <hsivonen> fwiw, Validator.nu converts the IRIs entered in the UI to URIs with the lib in the IRI mode but converts XML system ids to URIs in the XML system ID mode.
  337. # [23:06] <hsivonen> craziness. the lib supports 6 different conformance modes for URI-like strings:
  338. # [23:06] <hsivonen> URI
  339. # [23:06] <hsivonen> IRI
  340. # [23:06] <hsivonen> RDF
  341. # [23:06] <hsivonen> XML Schema
  342. # [23:06] <hsivonen> XML system ID
  343. # [23:06] <hsivonen> XLink
  344. # [23:07] <gsnedders> Standards Suck.
  345. # [23:07] <gsnedders> Standards Suck 5 anyone?
  346. # [23:25] <Philip`> Hixie: Kristof's email? For his first paragraph, I'm guessing he was not disagreeing with what I said, so there's nothing to do. For the second paragraph, you could change the spec's definition of 'round' to require the drawn arc to be the one satisfying the condition he suggested
  347. # [23:26] <Philip`> (though I currently think the condition he suggested is not correct)
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  349. # [23:30] <hsivonen> what validator back end is http://inursite.com/ running?
  350. # [23:35] <jgraham_> hsivonen: It appears to be using the w3c validator
  351. # [23:35] <Philip`> hsivonen: On the results page its "live validation" links to validator.w3.org
  352. # [23:35] * Quits: Ketsuban (n=ketsuban@cpc2-oxfd8-0-0-cust335.oxfd.cable.ntl.com) ("Perhaps on the rare occasion pursuing the right course demands an act of piracy, piracy itself can be the right course?")
  353. # [23:36] <Philip`> (and it gives exactly the same validation messages as validator.w3.org)
  354. # [23:36] <hsivonen> jgraham_, Philip`: thanks
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  356. # [23:42] * Quits: Ketsuban (n=ketsuban@cpc2-oxfd8-0-0-cust335.oxfd.cable.ntl.com) ("Perhaps on the rare occasion pursuing the right course demands an act of piracy, piracy itself can be the right course?")
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  360. # Session Close: Sun Feb 03 00:00:00 2008

The end :)