/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Feb 03 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <Hixie> Philip`: what is wrong with the current text? (or did you send mail already :-) )
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  6. # [00:12] <Philip`> Hixie: About round, I did send mail (as a direct reply to you in "Canvas line styles comments"), saying "there's two possible arcs connecting those two corners (one clockwise, one anticlockwise), so it should specify which one is meant."
  7. # [00:32] <Hixie> k
  8. # [00:32] <Hixie> bbl
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  22. # [02:27] * Philip` wonders if it'd be interesting to see what strings <acronym> and <abbr> are currently used for, to see if they're just interchangable in practice, or if it's best to stay far away from the whole topic
  23. # [02:30] <Ketsuban> The main problem with asking people to distinguish between <acronym> and <abbr> is that they don't know what the difference is (that is to say, an acronym is read out as the letters, like RSPCA, whereas an abbreviation is said, like NATO).
  24. # [02:30] <Ketsuban> I myself advocate keeping <acronym> around and saying people SHOULD use <acronym> for acronyms, but MAY use <abbr> if they don't know the difference.
  25. # [02:31] <Ketsuban> This is the friendliest solution for Web developers, but for developers of e.g. screen reading software it's pretty nightmarish.
  26. # [02:32] <Philip`> The main problem is that people who say they do know the difference disagree on what the difference is :-)
  27. # [02:32] <Philip`> Wikipedia says "The word acronym was coined during the mid-20th century for abbreviations pronounced as words, such as NATO and AIDS."
  28. # [02:32] <Ketsuban> Unfortunately that's not modern usage. =P
  29. # [02:32] <Ketsuban> I was taught acronyms are read out as letters.
  30. # [02:34] <Philip`> That's what I mean about people disagreeing
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  32. # [02:35] <Dashiva> Is there anyone who disagrees that an acronym is also an abbreviation, regardless of what an acronym is defined to be?
  33. # [02:35] <Ketsuban> I don't disagree there.
  34. # [02:36] <Ketsuban> So I suppose that's the strongest argument you can give for dropping <acronym> altogether.
  35. # [02:39] <Ketsuban> But I think keeping <acronym> around but allowing unconditional use of <abbr> is marginally friendlier to the makers of screen readers etc.
  36. # [02:42] <Philip`> Screen readers are only helped if <acronym> is used mostly correctly, and if it's better to trust the markup than to guess, and it doesn't seem clear that that's the case
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  38. # [02:49] <annevk> Philip`, that be useful, yes
  39. # [02:49] <annevk> would be, even
  40. # [02:50] * Philip` should probably expand his collection of pages so there's a more useful amount of data
  41. # [02:56] <mpt> Do any existing screenreaders treat <abbr> differently from <acronym>?
  42. # [02:56] <Philip`> Do any treat them differently to <span>?
  43. # [02:57] <mpt> That's part of what I'm wondering :-)
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  45. # [03:16] <Philip`> There's http://philip.html5.org/data/abbr-acronym.txt of quite limited usefulness or quality
  46. # [03:19] <Hixie> dunno what the two most common ones are from, but they seem highly pointless
  47. # [03:19] <Hixie> ... title="CD">CD<...
  48. # [03:20] <Philip`> They're almost all http://www.imusic.dk/
  49. # [03:20] <Hixie> ah
  50. # [03:21] <Hixie> well this is prett convincing data as far as the elements being pointless goes
  51. # [03:21] <Hixie> as in, having both
  52. # [03:21] <Hixie> vs having one
  53. # [03:22] <Philip`> It looks like it wouldn't be good for a screen reader to try pronouncing <acronym>s as single words
  54. # [03:22] <Philip`> not to read out the individual letters
  55. # [03:22] <Philip`> which leaves them with zero good options
  56. # [03:23] <Philip`> s/not/nor/
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  58. # [03:32] * Philip` happens to see http://friendlybit.com/html/encyclopedia-of-html-elements/ saying "ACRONYM: No need to use this one, abbr is enough. Do we really need to differ between acronyms and abbreviations? What about initialisms and the other types of words?"
  59. # [03:33] <Hixie> screen readers are going to read it the same way they read text/plain
  60. # [03:33] <Hixie> which is to say, using their dictionary
  61. # [03:33] <Hixie> and heuristics
  62. # [03:34] <jruderman> <portmanteau>
  63. # [03:35] <jruderman> it could be a solution to the lame debate in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Portmanteau#The_ubiquity_of_portmanteau : users could configure their browsers to display <portmanteau> differently
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  65. # [03:37] <Hixie> "lame debate" is a redundant descriptor when linking to a URI with wiki/Talk: in it
  66. # [03:41] <jruderman> hehe
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  98. # [12:34] <takkaria> I'm talking on a channel full of geeks who read the comic xkcd
  99. # [12:34] <takkaria> and it's amazing just how badly they misunderstand xhtml/html/rendering/css/the lot
  100. # [12:34] <takkaria> 11:31 <+kremlin> You're suggesting that Firefox should parse XML files as if they were XHTML files, xipietotec?
  101. # [12:34] <takkaria> 11:31 <+kremlin> The file extensions are different for a reason, you know.
  102. # [12:35] <takkaria> makes me wonder what hope the rest of the world has, really
  103. # [12:35] <annevk> rest of the world uses HTML :p
  104. # [12:36] <takkaria> apparently firefox 2 doesn't support XHTML so it just renders it as HTML
  105. # [12:36] <Ketsuban> Part of me thinks Firefox should render XHTML without any default themes at all beyond setting display: for the appropriate elements and styling form elements appropriately.
  106. # [12:38] <jwalden> eurgh
  107. # [12:39] <Ketsuban> But then I have really insane ideas sometimes. =P
  108. # [12:41] <jwalden> meh, we're all mad here
  109. # [12:44] <takkaria> now someone's saying that sometimes web servers don't serve all files ending in .html as text/html because sometimes it does content-sniffing
  110. # [12:44] <takkaria> sadly, I'm muted on that channel, so I can't join in the debate anymore
  111. # [12:45] <jwalden> *web servers* doing content sniffing? sheesh
  112. # [12:46] <annevk> in theory it was the idea that web servers would do that
  113. # [12:46] <annevk> for <meta http-equiv> for instance
  114. # [12:48] <jwalden> no kidding
  115. # [12:48] <jwalden> learn something new every day!
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  118. # [13:26] <webben> takkaria: Firefox2 does support XHTML.
  119. # [13:27] <webben> It will render it as HTML only if you serve it as text/html
  120. # [13:27] <takkaria> webben: I know that, and now the person who told me that does too
  121. # [13:28] <webben> ok
  122. # [13:28] <webben> misunderstood what you meant by 'apparently'
  123. # [13:29] <webben> takkaria: there's a channel for xkcd readers?
  124. # [13:31] <takkaria> webben: kk. irc.xkcd.net
  125. # [13:32] <takkaria> or .com, I forget
  126. # [13:32] <takkaria> particularly #xkcd-signal; you get muted if you say something someone else has said before
  127. # [13:32] <takkaria> every time you do, your mute time gets doubled
  128. # [13:32] <takkaria> and every six hours it halves again
  129. # [13:32] <webben> hmm interesting
  130. # [13:32] <webben> ta
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  139. # [16:29] * Lachy attempted to go skiing today.
  140. # [16:30] <Lachy> unbelievably, the rental places didn't have skis with bindings large enough for my boots :-(
  141. # [16:33] <jgraham_> Oh so by "attempted" you actually mean "failed"
  142. # [16:34] <Lachy> yeah.
  143. # [16:34] <jgraham_> (I assumed you just meant you had been and were not very good)
  144. # [16:35] <Lachy> I do own my own crappy old straight skis that I bought second hand, but assumed I would be able to rent better skis
  145. # [16:35] <Lachy> so I didn't bother taking them
  146. # [16:35] <Lachy> I'm going to go buy some new skis tomorrow morning
  147. # [16:36] * jgraham_ has only been skiing on crappy dry slopes and even then not for many years
  148. # [16:42] <gsnedders> annevk: do browsers return the last header if you request Content-Type (or something else relevant to the protocol) and there are multiple headers of the type? What if there are occurrences of the header in the trailer of a chunked response?
  149. # [16:43] * gsnedders wishes he could go skiing more often than once every few years :(
  150. # [16:47] * Philip` wonders if 'sliding uncontrollably down a dry ski slope and sometimes not falling over' counts as skiing
  151. # [16:48] <didymos> Philip`, is there any other way? :)
  152. # [16:48] * gsnedders thinks not
  153. # [16:48] <Philip`> Not in my personal experience :-)
  154. # [16:48] * gsnedders has never fallen over a on a dry ski slope
  155. # [16:49] <gsnedders> I've never been on one either, but hey.
  156. # [16:49] * jgraham_ has quite similar experiences of skiing to Philip`
  157. # [16:49] * gsnedders can just go up to Glenshee for the day
  158. # [16:51] <hsivonen> Philip`: the newes copy of your dmoz URL that I have downloaded is from July. Do you have a newer URL set available for download?
  159. # [16:52] <hsivonen> newest even
  160. # [16:53] <Philip`> hsivonen: I don't have a newer one - I've just been using one from before 2007-07-15
  161. # [16:53] <Philip`> (and it probably has the broken &amp; bits in it)
  162. # [16:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
  163. # [16:55] <hsivonen> I have dmoz-unique-pages.txt.gz and dmoz-unique-pages-shuffle.txt.gz that are significantly different in size
  164. # [16:56] <Philip`> (If I remember correctly, it just came from http://rdf.dmoz.org/rdf/content.rdf.u8.gz and Perl regexps to extract the links, then sort and uniq)
  165. # [16:56] <Philip`> hsivonen: The uncompressed sizes should be identical
  166. # [16:56] <hsivonen> ok.
  167. # [16:56] <Philip`> but the shuffling hurts the compression a lot
  168. # [16:56] <hsivonen> how did you do the shuffling?
  169. # [16:56] <Philip`> Ideally I would have done it with 'sort -R'
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  172. # [16:58] <Philip`> except that didn't actually shuffle things at all when I first tried it, so I just wrote a line of Perl to read get an array of [rand(), $uri] and then sorted by the random field and then printed it out again, which took a couple of gigabytes of memory and is not necessarily the best method
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  175. # [16:58] <Philip`> ('sort -R' works on one computer I use, but not on another, which is weird)
  176. # [17:08] <Philip`> hsivonen: If you're doing stuff with pages, http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/Test2.java might have some salvageably useful bits though it's full of bad ideas and copied-and-pasted chunks of code
  177. # [17:11] <Philip`> (I haven't even changed the original filename which it began evolving from long ago...)
  178. # [17:15] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  179. # [17:26] <hsivonen> let's see what happens if I feed the first 10000 URLs from shuffle to Validator.nu
  180. # [17:27] * Philip` wonders how long that will take
  181. # [17:28] <Philip`> (Parallelism definitely helps here, and is relatively trivial, which is nice)
  182. # [17:28] <hsivonen> this script is so simple that it doesn't have parallelism
  183. # [17:28] <hsivonen> I just run a simple python script on my own computer that feeds URIs sequentially to the Validator.nu Web service API
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  185. # [17:29] <Philip`> How does it handle things like timeouts?
  186. # [17:29] <hsivonen> Philip`: it doesn't
  187. # [17:29] <Philip`> If it pauses for 30 seconds a few hundred times, it's going to be a bit painful
  188. # [17:29] <hsivonen> it's very likely that the setup is too simple
  189. # [17:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: Validator.nu itself has timeouts on its outgoing requests
  190. # [17:30] <Philip`> At least that's better than being too complex, so it sounds like a good place to start :-)
  191. # [17:40] <SadEagle> hmmm, lots of canvas changes
  192. # [17:41] <Philip`> and a lack of updated tests for those changes
  193. # [17:41] <SadEagle> so I am gonna be lazy for a bit :-)
  194. # [17:42] <SadEagle> thank goodness I have a centralized place to change just about all of the +/- inf and NaN handling
  195. # [17:45] <Philip`> Unfortunately I don't have a centralised place for that
  196. # [17:47] * Philip` wonders how to make http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/* redirect to http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/*
  197. # [17:49] <Philip`> Oh, with "Redirect" - that was easy
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  201. # [18:25] <hsivonen> hmm. curiously, the 10000 url script started getting 503 from Validator.nu at some point without Validator.nu crashing
  202. # [18:26] <hsivonen> I wonder if mod_jk has some kind of DoS prevention that kicked in
  203. # [18:26] <hsivonen> or Apache itself
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  208. # [19:04] <annevk> wow, that image maps are still so widely deployed
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  210. # [19:09] <hsivonen> hmm. perhaps there are even more than one application/xhtml+xml site in the Alexa globar 500
  211. # [19:09] <hsivonen> global
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  213. # [19:09] <annevk> wow
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  215. # [19:15] <Philip`> What is the " 1 www.icio.us"?
  216. # [19:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: probably a regexping error
  217. # [19:16] <Philip`> It would be nice to show the number of pages that contain each error, rather than the total count
  218. # [19:16] <Philip`> s/rather than/as well as/
  219. # [19:19] <Philip`> http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=163885&t=1202062644&page=1#comment2212326 - yay, XML
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  221. # [19:28] <blooberry> hsivonen: did you find more than one application/xhtml+xml site in the alexa global 500 then? The "perhaps" make me curious. 8-}
  222. # [19:29] <blooberry> I only found one...
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  224. # [19:34] <hsivonen> blooberry: I rechecked. there's only one.
  225. # [19:34] <webben> hsivonen: How are you requesting XHTML?
  226. # [19:34] <blooberry> iwiw.hu?
  227. # [19:34] <hsivonen> blooberry: yes
  228. # [19:36] <hsivonen> webben: Accept: application/xhtml+xml, application/xml; q=0.5, text/html; q=0.9
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  230. # [19:46] <hsivonen> Philip`: each page counted at most once per error: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/alexa500-page-collapsed-counts.txt
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  257. # [22:32] <gavin_> hsivonen: www.iwiw.hu is sending text/html as far as I can tell...
  258. # [22:32] <gavin_> did it just change or something?
  259. # [22:33] <gavin_> I've tried a few different UAs, too
  260. # [22:36] <hsivonen> gavin_: Page Info says application/xhtml+xml in Minefield nightly
  261. # [22:38] <gavin_> ah, interesting
  262. # [22:38] <Dashiva> Same in Opera
  263. # [22:39] <gavin_> that is what I get for http://iwiw.hu/pages/user/login.jsp
  264. # [22:40] <hsivonen> www.iwiw.hu redirects me to http://www.iwiw.hu/pages/user/login.jsp which is application/xhtml+xml to Minefield
  265. # [22:41] <gavin_> yeah, I see that too
  266. # [22:41] <gavin_> but if I load the login.jsp URL in IE7, it works
  267. # [22:41] <gavin_> I thought IE7 barfed on application/xhtml+xml ?
  268. # [22:41] <hsivonen> most likely it varies the Content-Type on Accept
  269. # [22:42] <gavin_> ah, right
  270. # [22:42] <webben> gavin: curl -H 'accept: application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0' -v http://www.iwiw.hu/pages/user/login.jsp returns Content-Type: application/xhtml+xml;charset=UTF-8
  271. # [22:42] <gavin_> web-sniffer doesn't let me change Accept
  272. # [22:43] <webben> as does accept: application/xhtml+xml;q=0,text/html ... fail!
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  274. # [22:43] <webben> curl -H 'accept: text/html' -v http://www.iwiw.hu/pages/user/login.jsp returns text/html
  275. # [22:44] <webben> someone tell them their content negotiation is borked ;)
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  277. # [22:58] <Philip`> hsivonen: About error counts: Thanks
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  279. # [22:59] <Philip`> Comparing to http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/index#parse-errors there's a significant difference in the number with unencoded ampersands
  280. # [22:59] <Philip`> which I'd assume is due to top-500 sites being more likely to have dynamic pages with query strings needing ampersands, so that sounds quite plausible
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  282. # [23:24] <Hixie> Lachy: if you have a chance, any way we can set up blog.whatwg.org/faq to be a redirect to the wiki faq?
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  284. # [23:30] <Lachy> oh, damn. That had been done before, but with the last upgrade, I accidentally deleted the .htaccess.
  285. # [23:30] <Lachy> I'll check if I have a backup
  286. # [23:31] <Lachy> good, I do. Uploading it now
  287. # [23:33] <Hixie> thanks
  288. # [23:33] <Hixie> i fixed the link on the front page too
  289. # [23:33] <Hixie> (someone complained it was 404)
  290. # [23:33] <Hixie> so that shouldn't be a big issue any more
  291. # [23:38] <Lachy> all fixed
  292. # [23:39] <Lachy> ah, it looks like you removed the link entirely
  293. # [23:40] <Hixie> no i mean on www.whatwg.org
  294. # [23:40] <Hixie> made it point to the wiki
  295. # [23:41] <Lachy> oh, I thought you meant the blog's front page. The link to the FAQ seems to be missing from there
  296. # [23:41] <Hixie> odd
  297. # [23:41] <Hixie> didn't touch the blog
  298. # [23:41] <Hixie> update fallout?
  299. # [23:42] <Lachy> oh, maybe I never added the links again, after I moved the faq from the blog to the wiki
  300. # Session Close: Mon Feb 04 00:00:00 2008

The end :)