/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Feb 05 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:16] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
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  5. # [00:19] * Philip` 's parser now can handle comments and <span>
  6. # [00:19] <Philip`> (but not </span> yet)
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  13. # [01:37] <annevk> Hixie, you around?
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  15. # [01:58] <jwalden> weep: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=301408&action=diff
  16. # [01:59] <annevk> thanks for not changing the API completely :)
  17. # [01:59] <annevk> move from document to window was already slightly annoying, though justified
  18. # [02:00] <jwalden> I have difficulty believing we'd have changed the API
  19. # [02:00] <jwalden> I'm not sure what would have been done, to be honest
  20. # [02:01] <jwalden> manually adding the method at runtime is gross
  21. # [02:01] <annevk> brendan suggested changing the name
  22. # [02:01] <jwalden> I think there'd have been enough pushback for that not to happen
  23. # [02:03] <jwalden> we need to get away from this ABI compat thing, pronto
  24. # [02:03] <gavin> annevk: he suggested changing the method name in our code, and exposing it to content using JS API trickery
  25. # [02:03] <gavin> he wasn't suggesting we change the API...
  26. # [02:03] <annevk> my bad, i inferred that from other comments
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  28. # [02:07] <annevk> gavin, then again, are you sure?
  29. # [02:07] <annevk> oh well, doesn't matter
  30. # [02:08] <gavin> yes, I'm sure
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  32. # [02:08] <gavin> he was talking about implementation details to avoid the bustage
  33. # [02:09] <annevk> why did he cc hixie then and why did jonas reply the way he did?
  34. # [02:10] <gavin> I think sicking misunderstood
  35. # [02:10] <gavin> and I think he CCed Hixie just to point out the conflict
  36. # [02:11] <gavin> (and perhaps they had discussed Windows macros before or something)
  37. # [02:16] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  38. # [02:16] <jwalden> in all honesty, I kinda think it's not a bad idea to avoid name conflicts
  39. # [02:16] <jwalden> witness cssFloat for example
  40. # [02:17] <jwalden> although I'm worried doing so for a Windows API would set a bad precedent
  41. # [02:17] <jwalden> and I don't think it matters now anyway
  42. # [02:18] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net)
  43. # [02:18] * jwalden wishes push_macro and pop_macro functionality were built into the standards
  44. # [02:19] <jwalden> since people do that sort of thing so much anyway
  45. # [02:19] <annevk> cssFloat, className
  46. # [02:19] <annevk> there are some others
  47. # [02:21] <Dashiva> Speaking of cssFloat, is that being standardized?
  48. # [02:21] <annevk> i think it's part of DOM2Style
  49. # [02:22] <Hixie> Philip`: re creating an element for a token and re the login box, please send mail, i'm ooo for a few days
  50. # [02:22] <Dashiva> I was thinking more if IE had made any hints about adding support
  51. # [02:23] <annevk> Chris Wilson edited that spec, ask him ;)
  52. # [02:23] <annevk> Hixie, he did
  53. # [02:24] <annevk> Hixie, though if you could outline your position on the slash business with access control before you're ooo that'd be nice
  54. # [02:24] <annevk> s/though//
  55. # [02:24] <Hixie> i'll be back wednesday
  56. # [02:24] <Hixie> (i'm already ooo, just checking in from the hotel)
  57. # [02:24] <Hixie> what's the issue?
  58. # [02:24] <annevk> i'd like to know why add a slash at the end
  59. # [02:24] <annevk> and then remove it later on when doing the actual request
  60. # [02:25] <annevk> (prepending a slash instead of resolving against the current URI is also slightly unclear)
  61. # [02:25] <Hixie> oh that's just to make sure that you don't treat /foo.txt as being able to set the rules for /foo.txt.other/file
  62. # [02:26] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@eM60-254-227-133.pool.emnet.ne.jp)
  63. # [02:26] <jwalden> Dashiva: it's in acid3 :-)
  64. # [02:27] <Dashiva> Ooh, that's probably as good a guarantee as it gets
  65. # [02:27] <jwalden> which is about as much magical pixie dust as can be applied to the problem, externally
  66. # [02:27] <annevk> Hixie, thanks
  67. # [02:28] <annevk> Hixie, I guess I'll draft something up and we'll see what needs changing
  68. # [02:29] <Hixie> cool
  69. # [02:29] <annevk> hopefully done by Wednesday :)
  70. # [02:29] <Hixie> fwiw i got several people send me private feedback about that proposal saying it solved their only concerns with the spec
  71. # [02:29] * bradeeoh is now known as bradee-oh
  72. # [02:29] <Hixie> people from google, that is
  73. # [02:30] <annevk> at least one of them said so on the list
  74. # [02:30] <Hixie> who i'd guess will be amongst the first people to do any large-scale work with this :-)
  75. # [02:30] <Hixie> yeah, indeed
  76. # [02:30] <annevk> good good
  77. # [02:30] <annevk> time for bed now :)
  78. # [02:30] <othermaciej> is this the access-control spec?
  79. # [02:30] <annevk> ttyl
  80. # [02:31] <annevk> othermaciej, yeah, though I'm leaving now; questions -> e-mail
  81. # [02:31] <othermaciej> I don't have any other questions
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  84. # [02:46] <jwalden> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387706#c61> clarifies brendan's thoughts, fwiw (wasn't suggesting a rename)
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  212. # [09:49] <hsivonen> http://crisp.tweakblogs.net/blog/455/the-road-to-html5-conformance-of-html4-documents.html
  213. # [09:51] <zcorpan_> the first fragment would be conforming with the old rules since ul is struct-inline... but then no-one would understand the old rules anyway
  214. # [09:54] * zcorpan_ notes that the article refers to error numbers
  215. # [09:57] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-29-19.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  216. # [09:57] <zcorpan_> if we were to allow unescaped ampersands, then we'd still want to catch stuff like &1234; and &and;
  217. # [09:58] <Hixie_> &this and that; ?
  218. # [09:58] <zcorpan_> i'm not sure we want to allow unescaped ampersands at all
  219. # [09:58] <Hixie_> it's clear that people don't care about the requirement when it comes to href="" attributes
  220. # [09:58] <Hixie_> where commas are rare and ampersands frequent
  221. # [09:58] <Hixie_> er, semicolons
  222. # [09:59] <Hixie_> and so long as no semicolon occurs between the & and the =, which is author-controlled, i don't see that there could be a problem, really
  223. # [10:00] <zcorpan_> right, but it's easy to make mistakes if you don't escape ampersands, since &copy=... is replaced with ©
  224. # [10:01] <Hixie_> not in attributes, is it?
  225. # [10:01] <zcorpan_> it is
  226. # [10:01] <zcorpan_> but perhaps we should add = to the [a-zA-Z0-9] check
  227. # [10:02] <zcorpan_> and then allow unescaped ampersands but only in attributes
  228. # [10:03] <Hixie_> i thought we'd established that in attributes, you always needed a semicolon
  229. # [10:03] <Hixie_> maybe i remember wrong
  230. # [10:03] <zcorpan_> only if the next character is a-zA-Z0-9
  231. # [10:06] <zcorpan_> ha! http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3693559#post3693559 is the first i've seen that <p><table> parsing would actually break
  232. # [10:06] <hsivonen> Hixie_: when replying to Jim Correia, I noticed that the obsolete-happiness of HTML5 undermines the argument that everyone should trust we don't need versioning for validation going to HTML5 + 1.
  233. # [10:06] <Hixie_> why?
  234. # [10:07] <Hixie_> zcorpan_: ah
  235. # [10:07] <Hixie_> zcorpan_: well
  236. # [10:07] <Hixie_> zcorpan_: then i don't know what to do
  237. # [10:07] <Hixie_> zcorpan_: i agree it would be nice if everyone added semicolons... but they don't
  238. # [10:07] <zcorpan_> Hixie_: indeed
  239. # [10:07] <hsivonen> Hixie_: the non-versioning story goes that when HTML6 is out, people just start using HTML6 conformance checking
  240. # [10:08] <Hixie_> zcorpan_: so i'm not sure whether we're helping anyone by being pedantic about it
  241. # [10:08] <Hixie_> hsivonen: right
  242. # [10:08] <hsivonen> Hixie_: but for that to happen, HTML6 mustn't disrupt their authoring practices
  243. # [10:08] <Hixie_> hsivonen: or must do so in a way that only improves the web, right
  244. # [10:08] <hsivonen> Hixie_: why should they believe that when HTML5 does disrupt things by obsoleting Transitional stuff?
  245. # [10:09] <Hixie_> hsivonen: obsoleting stuff today that was marked for obsoletion 10 years ago should not come as a surprise to anyone.
  246. # [10:09] <zcorpan_> Hixie_: consider this. you're a cms dev and write a cms that doesn't escape ampersands in attributes
  247. # [10:09] <zcorpan_> Hixie_: you test it and it works fine and you ship
  248. # [10:09] <Hixie_> hsivonen: if people are still stuck in the mid-90s, they need to be informed.
  249. # [10:09] <zcorpan_> Hixie_: one day a user complains that his link doesn't work
  250. # [10:09] <zcorpan_> Hixie_: because it contained &copy=
  251. # [10:09] <hsivonen> Hixie_: in practice, the real world lives in Transitional--not Strict
  252. # [10:09] <hsivonen> Hixie_: the Transition never came
  253. # [10:10] <Hixie_> hsivonen: it's coming now.
  254. # [10:10] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  255. # [10:10] <hsivonen> Hixie_: the issue is that people disagree on what "only improves the Web"
  256. # [10:11] <zcorpan_> Hixie_: s/test/validate and test/
  257. # [10:11] <hsivonen> I'd rather see authors spend their time on improving the Web instead of firefighting border='0' copy-paste snippets
  258. # [10:12] <othermaciej> document conformance is hard because there's less at stake
  259. # [10:12] <Hixie_> hsivonen: sure. but that's different from <font>, bgcolor=, align=, etc.
  260. # [10:12] <othermaciej> because people can publish nonconforming documents and there isn't really a problem
  261. # [10:12] <othermaciej> so there's always the temptation to be paternalistic
  262. # [10:12] <hsivonen> Hixie_: I think obsoleting align on th and td doesn't improve the Web
  263. # [10:13] <Hixie_> i think making markup minimal and moving to all css improves the web dramatically
  264. # [10:13] <hsivonen> Hixie_: fwiw, I wouldn't take Transitional wholesale. I want to get rid of <basefont> and <isindex>, for example.
  265. # [10:13] <Hixie_> both in terms of performance and reuse.
  266. # [10:14] <Hixie_> hsivonen: i think that allowing media-specific markup is giving a very wrong message at a time where author are slowly learning the right way.
  267. # [10:14] <hsivonen> Hixie_: if we cared about performance enough to use it as an excuse to ban border='0', we should ban comments for consistency
  268. # [10:15] <hsivonen> and liberal use of whitespace
  269. # [10:15] <Hixie_> hsivonen: i would be more inclined to go back up the slippery slope and remove /> and xmlns="" than i would be to add align="".
  270. # [10:16] <hsivonen> Hixie_: alignment of table cells is conceptually often dependent on the kind of content but Selectors cannot do AI-based matching on the nature of element content
  271. # [10:16] <hsivonen> Hixie_: so letting the author set alignment is the simplest solution
  272. # [10:17] <hsivonen> Hixie_: I don't see what good it would do if authors had to use class='number' instead of align='right'
  273. # [10:17] <zcorpan_> perhaps allow only align=right on <td> and make it mean "number"
  274. # [10:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: what if you want to right-align ths that are column heads for numbers?
  275. # [10:18] <Hixie_> hsivonen: just put the class on the table and then use css to set the align on the relevant cells
  276. # [10:18] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok, <th> too, meaning that this is a header for a column of only numbers
  277. # [10:19] <hsivonen> Hixie_: what kind of GUI do you envision for writing those selectors?
  278. # [10:19] <Hixie_> hsivonen: emacs
  279. # [10:19] * Joins: Camaban (n=adrianle@host81-133-161-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  280. # [10:19] <hsivonen> Hixie_: would my mother who uses dreamweaver be better off if she had to tweak CSS to content instead of using a pre-designed style sheet?
  281. # [10:20] <hsivonen> Hixie_: I think the pro-CSS principle goes wrong if the authors has to tweak CSS to particular content and a pre-designed style sheet won't work
  282. # [10:21] <hsivonen> Hixie_: stuff that changes on a case-by-case basis like image dimensions and cell alignment should be settable in HTML
  283. # [10:22] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  284. # [10:22] <hsivonen> Hixie_: with HTML 4.01 Transitional for contextual stuff, I haven't had to add stuff to the style sheet my mother uses in years
  285. # [10:22] <Hixie_> i disagree. i think it's quite reasonable for a wysiwyg editor to work out what rules are necessary to get the desired effect, and i think the incremental rendering argument for img height/width is ok, but the per-image argument is moot
  286. # [10:23] <othermaciej> hsivonen: for tables (proper data tables at least) the main thing missing is column styling, which in theory should be offered but in practice has been too thorny to implement
  287. # [10:24] <othermaciej> (it's rare for alignment to be something tweaked per-cell, but it applies more often to a whole row than a whole column)
  288. # [10:24] <hsivonen> othermaciej: true
  289. # [10:24] <othermaciej> er, I meant that the other way around
  290. # [10:24] <hsivonen> othermaciej: but the point is moot until CSS delivers column styling and top browsers implement it
  291. # [10:25] <hsivonen> othermaciej: until then, authors need to deal with the current per-cell aligment
  292. # [10:26] <Hixie_> well, html5 won't be done for years, maybe someone can get something done in css by then
  293. # [10:26] <hsivonen> Hixie_: have you used Word with autostyles enabled? the user experience becomes horrible, when the editor tries to guess styling rules and adds a level of indirection by guessing
  294. # [10:27] <Hixie_> (i've long proposed [#col=3] and similar)
  295. # [10:27] <Hixie_> hsivonen: that's not what i'm suggesting
  296. # [10:27] <othermaciej> it's too bad tables are row-major instead of column-major, in retrospect the other way would be better for styling
  297. # [10:28] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  298. # [10:28] <hsivonen> Hixie_: adding an ID and an # selector doesn't really solve something that authors need solved. I think HTML5 should just let go of the strict non-presentationalism principle
  299. # [10:29] <hsivonen> Hixie_: or what are you suggesting when you say the editor should work out the rules?
  300. # [10:29] <Hixie_> hsivonen: if the user sets all the cells of one column to one type of alignment, it's trivial to come up with a single rule for that with no classes and no IDs, or maybe one class if there are multiple tables.
  301. # [10:30] <hsivonen> Hixie_: is it trivial to round-trip such a rule without editor-specific annotations and have the rule reasonbly editable in GUI?
  302. # [10:31] <zcorpan_> <table><style>...</style><tr>... ?
  303. # [10:31] <hsivonen> Hixie_: CSS isn't threatened if we allow so pragmatic presentationalism in HTML. The extremism isn't pragmatic.
  304. # [10:31] <Hixie_> nothing is trivial when it comes to wysiwyg editing
  305. # [10:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: great for legacy parsing...
  306. # [10:32] <Hixie_> i don't think css is threatened even by xhtml transitional
  307. # [10:32] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: indeed
  308. # [10:32] <Hixie_> that's not the concern
  309. # [10:32] <hsivonen> Hixie_: what's the concern?
  310. # [10:32] <Hixie_> < Hixie_> i think making markup minimal and moving to all css improves the web dramatically < Hixie_> both in terms of performance and reuse.
  311. # [10:33] <hsivonen> Hixie_: performance is a red herring if you allow comments at the same time
  312. # [10:33] <Hixie_> why?
  313. # [10:33] <Hixie_> comments are near zero-cost
  314. # [10:33] <hsivonen> Hixie_: and reuse is something that authors need to grow to want instead of some from above forcing it
  315. # [10:33] <Hixie_> not author reuse
  316. # [10:33] <Hixie_> user reuse
  317. # [10:33] <hsivonen> Hixie_: are you referring other than bandwidth performance?
  318. # [10:34] <Hixie_> "mashup", as some people call it
  319. # [10:34] <Hixie_> i mean performance throughout the stack
  320. # [10:34] <hsivonen> Hixie_: wouldn't align on table cells make alignment that is coupled with the nature of content travel better?
  321. # [10:34] <Hixie_> from rendering, to scripting, to editing, to comprehension and maintenance
  322. # [10:35] <hsivonen> Hixie_: do you have quatitative data showing that align on cell performs worse that elaborate selectors?
  323. # [10:35] <hsivonen> than
  324. # [10:36] <Hixie_> nope
  325. # [10:36] <Hixie_> (at least, no hard data at hand.)
  326. # [10:36] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  327. # [10:36] <othermaciej> from my experience, it's pretty unlikely that it would perform better on the client side
  328. # [10:36] <othermaciej> presentational attributes are much easier to handle than elaborate selectors
  329. # [10:37] <hsivonen> othermaciej: that's what my intuition tells me
  330. # [10:37] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
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  332. # [10:37] <othermaciej> that's not to say this is a reason in itself to encourage presentational attributes
  333. # [10:38] <hsivonen> Hixie_: as for maintenance, since aligment is coupled with cell content, contextual attributes make more maintenance sense than elaborate (and brittle!) selectors stored at a distance
  334. # [10:38] <othermaciej> on the other hand align on table cells seems to be very much a special case
  335. # [10:38] <othermaciej> mainly due to lack of usable column styling
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  338. # [10:38] <Hixie_> hsivonen: i think you are assuming a world where <td align> is used just for saying "this is a number", and i think in practice that this is far from what it is used for.
  339. # [10:39] <franksalim> you're just talking about the align attribute, not inline styling of table cells, right?
  340. # [10:39] <othermaciej> so one wouldn't want to go down the slippery slope to <p align> or other stuff like that
  341. # [10:39] <hsivonen> franksalim: I'm talking about align='right'
  342. # [10:39] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I don't want align on p or div
  343. # [10:39] <franksalim> hsivonen: i don't understand the necessity of preserving that
  344. # [10:39] <zcorpan_> Hixie_: same goes with <table> being used for data tables...
  345. # [10:40] <Hixie_> othermaciej: we're already going down that slope. hence my comment earlier that arguments like this are more likely to see me go back _up_ the slope and remove /> and xmlns="", than they are to see me go further down the slope with adding img border=0, td align="", etc.
  346. # [10:40] <othermaciej> /> and xmlns="" aren't really in the same category
  347. # [10:41] <othermaciej> those are pointless talismans that make chameleon markup theoretically possible for the joy of those who care about such things
  348. # [10:41] <othermaciej> not presentational markup
  349. # [10:41] <Lachy> border=0 certainly isn't needed. That can be handled by a fairly simple selector: a img, img[usemap] { border:0 }
  350. # [10:41] <Hixie_> nor are img border=0 and td align=right compared to, say, style="" or <font>.
  351. # [10:41] <othermaciej> <td align> is more analogous to <b> and <i>
  352. # [10:41] <Hixie_> there are a number of categories
  353. # [10:41] <zcorpan_> Lachy: img { border:0 }
  354. # [10:42] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: indeed
  355. # [10:42] * Joins: heyadayo (n=mcarter@pool-72-87-174-132.plspca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  356. # [10:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: the point of allowing border='0' is to save people the trouble of getting rid of it again, and again, and again
  357. # [10:42] <othermaciej> though I don't think the case is as strong for <td align> as for <b>
  358. # [10:42] <Lachy> for cell alignment, I generally use class names on each table cell that needs special styling, and then style them all at once using a class selector
  359. # [10:43] <Hixie_> hsivonen: i want people to get rid of it.
  360. # [10:43] <hsivonen> Lachy: how is that more noble than <span class='italic'> to avoid <i>?
  361. # [10:43] <Lachy> hsivonen, it's more work to put border=0 on each img, than it is to put a single rule in a reusable stylesheet
  362. # [10:43] <Hixie_> othermaciej: for <b>, i can see how we can define it in a completely non-presentational manner quite legitimately.
  363. # [10:43] <Hixie_> same with <i>
  364. # [10:44] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'm not suggesting that people write border='0'. I'm suggesting that we don't ask people to delete it when a tool or a cute badge template put it in the markup
  365. # [10:44] <Hixie_> so how do we catch new authors writing it?
  366. # [10:44] <othermaciej> so is this because Gecko puts borders around images in links by default?
  367. # [10:45] <Hixie_> that's the problem transitional never solved
  368. # [10:45] <hsivonen> othermaciej: Mosaic, Netscape, Gecko, ...
  369. # [10:46] <Lachy> hsivonen, I'd rather discourage tools and pre-written templates to omit it
  370. # [10:46] <hsivonen> Hixie_: Cathing them isn't that important. it is a relatively benign cargo cult.
  371. # [10:46] <hsivonen> Lachy: good luck
  372. # [10:46] <hsivonen> Catching even
  373. # [10:46] <hsivonen> actually, it isn't quite a cargo cult, since it actually works
  374. # [10:47] <hsivonen> border='0' actually makes planes land
  375. # [10:47] <othermaciej> Gecko should just get rid of the default border
  376. # [10:47] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I agree
  377. # [10:47] <hsivonen> othermaciej: but that doesn't fix the legacy templates, habits and tools
  378. # [10:47] * Hixie_ is now known as Hixie
  379. # [10:48] <Hixie> hold on brb
  380. # [10:48] * Quits: Hixie (i=ianh@trivini.no) ("Reconnecting")
  381. # [10:48] * Joins: Hixie (i=ianh@trivini.no)
  382. # [10:48] <othermaciej> (I wonder if there's a bug?)
  383. # [10:49] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I couldn't find one yesterday
  384. # [10:49] <othermaciej> hsivonen: yes, 5-10 years after they ship a version of Firefox that does that people might stop including the border='0'
  385. # [10:49] <Lachy> othermaciej, does webkit use a border?
  386. # [10:49] <hsivonen> othermaciej: right, so during that time, is it good use of human time to keep hunting instances of border='0'?
  387. # [10:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think catching it is important, because it's one of many things (like align=right, and />, and xmlns="") that litters the web and for which the web would be a better place without
  388. # [10:49] <othermaciej> Lachy: no
  389. # [10:50] <Lachy> ok. So it's just IE and FF
  390. # [10:50] <othermaciej> IE does it too?
  391. # [10:50] <othermaciej> (IE/Mac doesn't)
  392. # [10:50] <Lachy> IE/win does
  393. # [10:51] <hsivonen> :-(
  394. # [10:51] <othermaciej> I wonder if anyone has ever filed a bug about lack of this behavior in WebKit
  395. # [10:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think the cost of improving the Web on this particular point is unfavorable compared to the expected improvement
  396. # [10:52] <Lachy> I wonder if IE could drop it for IE8 in all modes?
  397. # [10:52] <hsivonen> Lachy: if they don't for the IE 5.5 mode, copy-pasteable snippets will continue to have border='0' or, worse, style='border:0'
  398. # [10:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think that the cost of having an unclear message (you can have border, but only if it is 0, and only on img, not on table, and you can have align=right on td but not on col and not on p...)
  399. # [10:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: is way higher
  400. # [10:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm not convinced that authors think of image border and table border or p and td align as the same things
  401. # [10:56] <Hixie> i'm not convinced of the opposite :-)
  402. # [10:56] <Hixie> sadly, you control the validator, and i control the spec, so we're at somewhat of an impass :-P
  403. # [10:56] <hsivonen> does any client really appreciate the theoretical difference of content-language and lang=''? http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-http-and-lang
  404. # [10:58] <Lachy> hsivonen, I think the more important question is does any client do anything useful with either?
  405. # [10:58] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-2c3c5482860d65d4)
  406. # [10:58] <hsivonen> Lachy: pre-Pango Gecko at least did something useful with lang
  407. # [10:58] <hsivonen> Lachy: albeit, theorists didn't like what it did
  408. # [10:58] <hsivonen> (font selection)
  409. # [10:59] <othermaciej> Lachy: seems pretty clear Microsoft wouldn't drop the border for IE5.5 mode or IE7 mode
  410. # [10:59] <hsivonen> obviously, http-equive='content-language' doesn't help with conneg, so the conneg meaning does not matter
  411. # [11:03] <annevk> they all affect :lang()
  412. # [11:04] <annevk> ooh, mediawiki at the W3C: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Main_Page
  413. # [11:06] <hsivonen> and so PHP tools replace Python tools...
  414. # [11:06] <hsivonen> worse is better, I guess
  415. # [11:09] <roc> we still use lang/xml:lang as part of the font selection process
  416. # [11:10] <othermaciej> if anyone is still curious...
  417. # [11:10] <othermaciej> we do have a bug filed for lacking a border on broken images, but no such bug as far as I can tell for link images
  418. # [11:11] <Hixie> "With browser vendors tripping all over themselves to implement draft modules from the CSS3, HTML5 and XHTML2 specifications, the first wave of web standards is drawing to a close."
  419. # [11:11] <Hixie> browser vendors doing _what_?
  420. # [11:11] <Hixie> http://blogs.pathf.com/agileajax/2008/02/web-standards-w.html
  421. # [11:11] <roc> two out of three ain't bad
  422. # [11:16] * Joins: vant (n=vant@p2098-ipbf4207marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  423. # [11:32] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  424. # [11:35] <takkaria> also makes reference to WC3
  425. # [11:36] * hsivonen smiles at the paragraph starting with "That's not how fanatics see it, however."
  426. # [11:55] <annevk> zcorpan_, http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=143 is spam
  427. # [12:11] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  428. # [12:40] <zcorpan_> annevk: thanks
  429. # [12:45] <Philip`> Hmm, </br clear=left> is like <br clear=left> in Opera, but like <br> in IE (and is ignored in FF/Safari)
  430. # [12:48] <zcorpan_> Philip`: also in 9.5?
  431. # [12:49] <zcorpan_> (try quirks mode for fx/saf)
  432. # [12:51] <Philip`> Ah - FF2-quirks does it like <br>, Safari-quirks still ignores it
  433. # [12:51] <Philip`> and O9.5 does it like <br>
  434. # [12:51] <annevk> and HTML5 does that too?
  435. # [12:52] <zcorpan_> annevk: yeah
  436. # [12:52] <annevk> good good
  437. # [12:52] <Philip`> "An end tag whose tag name is "br" Parse error. Act as if a start tag token with the tag name "br" had been seen. Ignore the end tag token."
  438. # [12:52] <Philip`> I guess it's implicit that the generated token has no attributes
  439. # [12:52] <zcorpan_> that's how i read it anyway
  440. # [12:53] <zcorpan_> since the attributes are attached to the token that is ignored
  441. # [12:53] <Philip`> A start tag token corresponding to <br foo=bar> satisfies the explicit condition of being a start tag token with the tag name "br"
  442. # [12:55] <zcorpan_> the spec has lots of "act as if a start tag token with...", but it could be clarified that such tokens have no attributes
  443. # [12:55] <Philip`> Might just be a waste of time, though
  444. # [12:55] <hsivonen> looks like the Opera 9.5 approach to MathML can't deal with http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/001594.html
  445. # [12:55] <annevk> if it's not said explicitly that it has attributes it should've none
  446. # [12:55] <annevk> that's how specs work
  447. # [12:55] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.94.154) (Remote closed the connection)
  448. # [12:56] <Philip`> annevk: Is it specified anywhere that that's how specs work?
  449. # [12:56] <hsivonen> do both v.nu and html5lib do the right thing already with the current spec wording?
  450. # [12:56] <annevk> Philip`, I'm not sure how explicit it is that doing something that the specification does not explicitly forbid is non-conforming
  451. # [12:57] <annevk> Philip`, but it's pretty much agreed upon that inserting random attributes during full moon is wrong
  452. # [12:57] <hsivonen> Philip`: speccing how specs work reminds me of "entity-escaped HTML in RSS <title>
  453. # [12:57] <annevk> hsivonen, I think html5lib does </br> correctly
  454. # [12:58] <annevk> not sure how many tests we have for that though
  455. # [12:58] <Philip`> hsivonen: Both do
  456. # [12:58] <hsivonen> ok
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  459. # [13:16] <annevk> hmm, IETF got media types messed up: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986
  460. # [13:17] <hsivonen> server config is hard
  461. # [13:18] <annevk> I don't disagree
  462. # [13:18] <franksalim> lets go shopping
  463. # [13:20] <franksalim> sorry i was a little bit slow there. call and response joke, right?
  464. # [13:22] <annevk> i guess i'm slow too, because I don't get it :)
  465. # [13:23] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbie#Controversies
  466. # [13:24] <hsivonen> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/07/06/tough
  467. # [13:26] <annevk> hehe
  468. # [13:26] <annevk> I found markp's post funny the first time I read it, I didn't know they actually made talking Barbies
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  470. # [13:27] <gsnedders> hsivonen: peh. it's not hard in RSS! you just check whether it has anything that looks like an end tag (without attributes) or an entity and if it has either, treat it as HTML :P
  471. # [13:29] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-15-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  472. # [13:29] <gsnedders> annevk: do browsers return the last header if you request Content-Type (or something else relevant to the protocol) and there are multiple headers of the type? What if there are occurrences of the header in the trailer of a chunked response?
  473. # [13:29] * annevk tries to make access control more friendly to lots of non-GET methods to lots of different URIs on the same domain
  474. # [13:30] <annevk> gsnedders, no clue
  475. # [13:30] <gsnedders> heh.
  476. # [13:30] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-7e39f32c166886a5)
  477. # [13:31] <annevk> the method check result cache will now become slightly more complicated
  478. # [13:31] <annevk> is there anything in non-writing that has two mutually exclusive primary keys?
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  480. # [13:32] <annevk> plus one primary key that is consistent throughout...
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  484. # [14:16] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/
  485. # [14:16] <zcorpan_> hmm, i'm not in acks
  486. # [14:17] <annevk> was that the plan?
  487. # [14:17] <annevk> :)
  488. # [14:17] <annevk> it still has 'xmlns:aria="http://www.w3.org/2005/07/aaa"'...
  489. # [14:18] <annevk> and lots of RDF and OWL crap
  490. # [14:18] <zcorpan_> indeed
  491. # [14:18] <annevk> "java script snippet :"
  492. # [14:18] <zcorpan_> there are lots of known issues
  493. # [14:19] <zcorpan_> but it's getting there
  494. # [14:20] <annevk> I see
  495. # [14:20] <annevk> your draft was so much better
  496. # [14:21] <zcorpan_> implementing my spec makes you conform to the other, i think :)
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  498. # [14:23] <annevk> still seems highly suboptimal
  499. # [14:23] <hsivonen> does the RDF in appendix 7.1.1 embody the data contained in the tables earlier in the document?
  500. # [14:24] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: no idea
  501. # [14:25] <zcorpan_> annevk: feel free to send feedback
  502. # [14:26] <hsivonen> the RDF schema is surprisingly short
  503. # [14:26] <annevk> zcorpan_, k...
  504. # [14:26] * annevk makes access control even more complicated first
  505. # [14:27] <annevk> with access control QA teams can rejoice as they'll be guaranteed with work for the coming decade
  506. # [14:27] <hsivonen> is the RDF schema under the Document License or the Software License?
  507. # [14:28] <zcorpan_> annevk: so *that's* why you're working on access control ;)
  508. # [14:28] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: the document conformance criteria are wrong at this point
  509. # [14:29] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: that was pointed out but not fixed before publication
  510. # [14:29] <zcorpan_> (dunno about the license though)
  511. # [14:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ok. I'm looking for reasonably machine-readable copyright-wise unencumbered data about what the roles are, what states and properties apply to which roles and the datatypes of the states/properties
  512. # [14:30] <hsivonen> Document License being encumbered but Software License or MIT license being unencumbered
  513. # [14:32] <hsivonen> though the RDF schema is so small after all, that perhaps typing a RELAX NG schema is simpler than writing a converter
  514. # [14:33] <annevk> zcorpan_, ssh
  515. # [14:34] <annevk> the access control spec will three-level deep <dl>
  516. # [14:34] <annevk> will feature
  517. # [14:34] <zcorpan_> annevk: sounds like a table?
  518. # [14:35] <zcorpan_> or nested state machines?
  519. # [14:38] <annevk> nested state machines
  520. # [14:39] <annevk> i hope it looks reasonable when styled
  521. # [14:39] * Philip` thinks there should be a machine-readable way of describing state machines like that, which can get converted into human-readable spec text
  522. # [14:40] <annevk> some people prefer models rather than this, but I'm unsure how to write them down accurately
  523. # [14:40] <Philip`> (I'd particularly like that since it'd save me the work of converting the human-readable text into a machine-readable form...)
  524. # [14:40] <annevk> my state machines don't exactly map to code straigh away
  525. # [14:41] <annevk> at least not the code we write nowadays
  526. # [14:41] * Philip` now supports comments, non-special start tags and non-special end tags in his OCaml HTML5 parser
  527. # [14:42] <Philip`> which is not particularly impressive yet :-(
  528. # [14:43] <annevk> ah, you started with doing the treebuilding phase?
  529. # [14:44] <Philip`> I started with the tokeniser, and finished that months ago :-)
  530. # [14:53] <annevk> <ol> -> <ol> -> <dl> -> <dl> -> <dl> ...
  531. # [14:54] <hsivonen> gsnedders: do you cover multiple HTTP status lines? Wikipedia seems to send the status line twice
  532. # [14:55] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: isn't that just interpreted as an unknown/broken header?
  533. # [14:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: dunno
  534. # [14:56] <hsivonen> hmm. perhaps the debug features of Common HttpClient are broken--not Wikipedia
  535. # [14:56] <hsivonen> I can't reproduce the problem with telnet
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  537. # [15:08] <hsivonen> too easy to make a system unresponsive by simply sending too much data to a browser :-(
  538. # [15:08] <hsivonen> I guess I have to limit the number of error messages V.nu reports
  539. # [15:09] <Philip`> Add a "show more errors" button which dynamically loads the next n error messages using XHR
  540. # [15:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: too complicated. I think I'll just cap the # of errors at a couple of thousand
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  542. # [15:17] <zcorpan_> yeah, you'd have to validate again after fixing a bunch anyway
  543. # [15:18] <zcorpan_> 1000 tests are more than enough to fix in one go
  544. # [15:18] <zcorpan_> s/tests/errors/
  545. # [15:19] <annevk> I ponder if I'd even bother with more than a 100
  546. # [15:20] <zcorpan_> it's likely simpler to rewrite from scratch
  547. # [15:21] <Dashiva> And you will no longer have the benefit of being able to "fix" hundreds of errors just with alt="" and />
  548. # [15:23] <Philip`> http://validator.nu/?doc=http://philip.html5.org/misc/quadratic.html
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  550. # [15:28] <Dashiva> Error: The s element is obsolete. | At line 3, column 228 | p>x<p>x<p>x
  551. # [15:28] <Dashiva> Seems like the offset is off, somewhat
  552. # [15:29] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I think there's an implied <s> start there
  553. # [15:30] <zcorpan_> yep, it's reconstructing active formatting elements
  554. # [15:30] <zcorpan_> or whatever the algorithm is called
  555. # [15:32] <zcorpan_> http://parsetree.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fphilip.html5.org%2Fmisc%2Fquadratic.html&submit=Print+Tree
  556. # [15:33] <Dashiva> Shouldn't the error be about implied elements instead, then?
  557. # [15:33] <zcorpan_> i guess the validation layer doesn't know which elements were implied
  558. # [15:34] <hsivonen> Dashiva: there are many "Error: Unclosed elements."
  559. # [15:34] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Then maybe there shouldn't be an error at all for the implied ones
  560. # [15:35] <Dashiva> It seems odd to error on <s>, error on unclosed, and then later create an additional error about an implied duplicate, after all both issues have been reported
  561. # [15:35] <hsivonen> Dashiva: like zcorpan_ said, the validation layer doesn't know which elements were implied. besides, the DOM conformance requirements don't discriminate between implied and explicit
  562. # [15:35] <zcorpan_> or it could perhaps figure it out by comparing the error with the sax event that carries location information (or how it's implemented)
  563. # [15:35] <Philip`> Safari seems to limit things by not cloning a node more than once
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  565. # [15:36] <hsivonen> It's more likely that this issue isn't worth tweaking on the validation layer, because nodes getting cloned to this extent is rare in real content
  566. # [15:37] <hsivonen> which is why Safari can get away with its limit
  567. # [15:37] <zcorpan_> Philip`: that might be a good perf win
  568. # [15:38] <Philip`> It looks like a DOS vulnerability in the validator, since an attacker can do O(n) work to make the validator do O(n^2)
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  570. # [15:40] <hsivonen> Philip`: yes. I'd prefer fixing this in the spec, though, instead of me putting arbitrary limits in the parser on my own
  571. # [15:41] <zcorpan_> and the validator isn't the only target
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  573. # [15:42] <hsivonen> I think the biggest DoS attack vectors against the validator right now are user-provided regular expressions is schemas and user-provided XPath in schemas
  574. # [15:43] <hsivonen> s/is/in/
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  588. # [16:56] <gsnedders> hsivonen: yeah, it'd just be a invalid header
  589. # [16:56] * gsnedders did worse than he expected in the computing exam: only 68/80
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  595. # [17:16] <zcorpan_> annevk: spam on your blog
  596. # [17:18] <annevk> :(
  597. # [17:18] <annevk> then again, "without" protection whatsoever it goes surprisingly well
  598. # [17:19] <hsivonen> annevk: is well-formedness the only protection?
  599. # [17:22] <annevk> forced preview and a static nonce too
  600. # [17:24] <annevk> i suppose that if someone really tries to target me i'm screwed
  601. # [17:24] <annevk> i'm not too worried though
  602. # [17:27] <zcorpan_> perhaps the forums need forced preview
  603. # [17:27] <zcorpan_> but i think most of not all spam on the forums are manually entered anyway
  604. # [17:27] <zcorpan_> s/of/if/
  605. # [17:28] <zcorpan_> or there's a way to register that doesn't involve the register form
  606. # [17:28] <krijnh> annevk: gezien dat ppk het over de IE8 switch gaat hebben vrijdag?
  607. # [17:29] <annevk> ja...
  608. # [17:29] <annevk> en ook dat het vol is!
  609. # [17:29] <krijnh> Juh :) 60 aanmeldingen
  610. # [17:29] <annevk> ik wilde het nog op m'n blog zetten om meer mensen uit te nodigen :)
  611. # [17:29] <annevk> ben ik nu dus te laat mee
  612. # [17:30] <krijnh> Sjah, kantine van Info is niet echt heel groot
  613. # [17:30] <krijnh> Lon komt ook btw
  614. # [17:30] <annevk> leuk
  615. # [17:30] <annevk> geen probleem trouwens, 60 is meer dan genoeg
  616. # [17:30] <annevk> moet ik wel m'n best doen :p
  617. # [17:30] <zcorpan_> hebben jullie en link of so?
  618. # [17:30] <krijnh> ;)
  619. # [17:31] <annevk> zcorpan_, http://fronteers.nl/blog/2008/02/bijeenkomst-8-februari-is-vol
  620. # [17:31] <zcorpan_> s/en/een/
  621. # [17:31] <krijnh> Hehe
  622. # [17:31] <annevk> zcorpan_, en, "of zo"
  623. # [17:31] <zcorpan_> annevk: bedankt :)
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  625. # [17:31] <krijnh> Wordt bijna tijd om de fixed positioning van dat rechtermenu weg te halen :\
  626. # [17:32] <annevk> misschien moet ik ook even wat vragen voorbereiden voor ppk :evil:
  627. # [17:32] <krijnh> Graag! :)
  628. # [17:35] <krijnh> Maar ik denk wel dat jij de enige browserbouwer bent daaro :)
  629. # [17:35] <krijnh> Dus hou een beetje rekening met het publiek
  630. # [17:35] <krijnh> Ow, btw, 50 aanmeldingen
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  633. # [17:47] <krijnh> annevk: zet je je presentatie ook online op je site? Of op de site van Fronteers?
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  642. # [18:37] <anne_mibbit> krijnh, my site, www-archive, fronteers, several places, dunno really
  643. # [18:37] <anne_mibbit> krijnh, it's not done yet though :)
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  697. # [23:33] <aseem> hi all, I had a question about entity-ized charachters like & $ etc and the way the serializer processes the
  698. # [23:34] <aseem> it seems that other than &amp; all others - for e.g. &curren; &yen; &cent; etc get transformed to the unicode representations
  699. # [23:34] <aseem> I was wondering if there was any way to not make it do that
  700. # [23:35] <aseem> code to read and process html is :http://groups.google.com/group/html5lib-discuss/browse_thread/thread/c2209e63aae5585c
  701. # [23:35] <aseem> sorry not unicode representations I mean character representations
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  705. # Session Close: Wed Feb 06 00:00:00 2008

The end :)