/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-07 / end

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  6. # [00:48] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  7. # [00:48] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  9. # [00:56] * Philip` starts passing a few tests
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  18. # [01:35] <Hixie> Philip`: the text of the spec was written very much stream of consciousness. if we had the data, you could probably see a pattern as to when i use "... and ...", and "..., then ...", etc, based on who last talked to me, who I last replied to in e-mail, when I woke up, what i ate for lunch, or something :-)
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  20. # [01:36] * jgraham_ imagines the spec rewritten in the style of Ulysses
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  22. # [01:36] <jgraham_> Although that should perhaps be styles
  23. # [01:36] <jgraham_> "styles", even
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  26. # [02:03] * Philip` wonders why lots of tests are failing, and then realises it's the head/body-implication thing where the spec disagrees with the tests
  27. # [02:11] <Philip`> Does someone happen to know how this ought to work?
  28. # [02:11] <Hixie> i really should fix that
  29. # [02:11] <Hixie> gah, so many things to fix
  30. # [02:11] <Dashiva> Speaking of implications. Whitespace nodes are sometimes processed as if the parser was in a different mode (e.g. in head noscript counts as in head"
  31. # [02:11] <Dashiva> Does this also normalize them if there's an existing one before or after already?
  32. # [02:11] <Philip`> (By "lots of tests", I mean 4 out of the 9 before I get a not-yet-implemented exception)
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  34. # [02:11] <Dashiva> It says appending several characters means making them a single node, but it doesn't have specific mention of what happens when an append crosses phases
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  36. # [02:28] <Philip`> Yay, now I pass 9 out of 9 tests before dying
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  86. # [10:24] <zcorpan_> oooh
  87. # [10:24] <zcorpan_> xml 1.0 5th edition
  88. # [10:24] <zcorpan_> first step towards xml5?
  89. # [10:28] <zcorpan_> "XML 1.0 documents SHOULD NOT specify a version number other than '1.0'."
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  91. # [10:29] <zcorpan_> seems they have made the version pseudo-attribute meaningless
  92. # [10:29] <zcorpan_> which is good
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  95. # [10:40] <zcorpan_> wonder if they can be convinced to say that "XML 1.0 documents SHOULD NOT contain a DOCTYPE declaration."
  96. # [10:40] <zcorpan_> (or must not)
  97. # [10:41] <annevk> Philip`, when you hit EOF and you haven't created <head> yet, do that, etc., up until <body>
  98. # [10:53] <Philip`> I've done something like
  99. # [10:53] <Philip`> BeforeHead: (EndOfFile, [ActAsIfStartTag "head"; ReprocessCurrentToken])
  100. # [10:53] <Philip`> InHead: (EndOfFile, [ActAsIfEndTag "head"; ReprocessCurrentToken])
  101. # [10:53] <Philip`> AfterHead: (EndOfFile, [ActAsIfStartTag "body"; ReprocessCurrentToken])
  102. # [10:53] <Philip`> Every other mode: same for EndOfFile as what the spec says
  103. # [10:53] <Philip`> which hopefully covers the necessary cases
  104. # [10:55] <annevk> i think html5lib has something like that
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  107. # [12:05] <jgraham_mibbit> zcorpan_: What's the status of aria in HTML 5? Are we just planning to import all the aria properties as aria-*
  108. # [12:08] <zcorpan_> jgraham: think so
  109. # [12:08] <zcorpan_> the aria spec now requires only aria-*
  110. # [12:10] <jgraham_mibbit> That's the Member only WD, right?
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  112. # [12:33] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: yeah, I think it's a good first step, though
  113. # [12:33] * gsnedders realises how awesome school is: he is in secondary 5!
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  117. # [12:50] <zcorpan_> jgraham_: no, a fpwd was published the other day
  118. # [12:50] <zcorpan_> jgraham_mibbit: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/
  119. # [12:59] <jgraham_mibbit> zcorpan_: Thanks
  120. # [13:00] * jgraham_mibbit wonders how aria properties are supposed to interact with html-native properties (e.g. <td aria-labelledby="foo" headers="baz">
  121. # [13:00] <jgraham_mibbit> )
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  123. # [13:02] <zcorpan_> jgraham: i wonder that too
  124. # [13:03] <zcorpan_> i'm planning to go through each and every aria role and question its existance in the first place and furthermore how it interacts with native features in host languages
  125. # [13:04] <jgraham_mibbit> zcorpan_: That sounds very worthwhile.
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  128. # [13:07] <jgraham_mibbit> (and something that I would be interested in working on)
  129. # [13:07] <zcorpan_> feel free :)
  130. # [13:09] <zcorpan_> i think that the host language should be able to say whether a role applies or not
  131. # [13:09] <zcorpan_> e.g. role=heading might make sense in svg but not in html
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  133. # [13:12] <annevk2> why oh why did I reply to Dmitry Turin
  134. # [13:13] <hsivonen> do we have some kind of support for SVG diagrams in the mediawiki instance on wiki.whatwg.org?
  135. # [13:13] <zcorpan_> annevk2: your ignore flag isn't working properly
  136. # [13:20] <annevk2> :)
  137. # [13:20] <annevk2> this was my last reply
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  144. # [14:35] <zcorpan_> hmm there's no spec for window.scrollTo and friends
  145. # [14:35] <annevk2> if you can propose definitions I'm willing to put them where they belong
  146. # [14:35] <annevk2> (cssom-view)
  147. # [14:35] * annevk2 is now known as annevk
  148. # [14:36] <zcorpan_> i have to figure out which should throw when
  149. # [14:36] <zcorpan_> s/when/and when/
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  151. # [14:38] <annevk> is there a non-multipage shortcut for the WHATWG draft of HTML5?
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  154. # [14:43] <zcorpan_> don't think so
  155. # [14:45] <Philip`> http://whatwg.org/html5/../ unfortunately doesn't work
  156. # [14:48] <annevk> http://html5.org/spec
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  158. # [14:59] * Philip` keeps getting mixed up between Ocaml's "!=" and "<>" operators
  159. # [14:59] <Philip`> which is annoying because it makes my code fail in ways that take me ages to discover :-(
  160. # [15:00] <Philip`> (!= and == do physical equality, = and <> do structural equality, so "x" = "x" and "x" != "x")
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  167. # [15:28] * Philip` notes that e.g. the "reconstruct the active formatting elements" algorithm does not map trivially into a functional language
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  176. # [16:04] <Philip`> "1. Let node be the element immediately prior to node in the stack of open elements. 2. If node is not in the list of active formatting elements, then remove node from the stack of open elements and then go back to step 1."
  177. # [16:05] <Philip`> If node is removed from the stack of open elements, then there is no longer any element immediately prior to it in the stack of open elements
  178. # [16:05] <Philip`> or am I misunderstanding something?
  179. # [16:06] <Dashiva> node seems overloaded
  180. # [16:06] <annevk> the stack of open elements always has the root node
  181. # [16:07] <annevk> which can't be popped iirc
  182. # [16:07] * annevk forgot the details
  183. # [16:08] <Philip`> But 'node' can be not the root node, and once it's removed from the stack then you can't find an element prior to 'node' in the stack
  184. # [16:08] <annevk> ?
  185. # [16:08] <Philip`> Like, what comes before node 'x' in the list [a; b; c; d]?
  186. # [16:09] <Philip`> Once 'x' has been removed from the list, that doesn't make sense any more
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  188. # [16:10] <annevk> good point, which algorithm is this?
  189. # [16:11] <Philip`> Adoption agency
  190. # [16:11] <Philip`> though I don't know of many real adoption agencies that clone children
  191. # [16:12] <annevk> I think "node" and "node" in the first sentence are distinct
  192. # [16:15] <annevk> so that one of those "node" thingies is still around when you delete the other
  193. # [16:16] * Philip` wishes the terms 'lower' and 'prior' and 'after' and 'furthest' and 'last' and 'end' and 'start' and 'bottom' weren't all mixed up for similar concepts
  194. # [16:17] <annevk> node = self.tree.openElements[
  195. # [16:17] <annevk> self.tree.openElements.index(node)-1]
  196. # [16:17] <annevk> while node not in self.tree.activeFormattingElements:
  197. # [16:17] <annevk> tmpNode = node
  198. # [16:17] <annevk> node = self.tree.openElements[self.tree.openElements.index(node)-1]
  199. # [16:17] <annevk> self.tree.openElements.remove(tmpNode)
  200. # [16:18] <annevk> with better indentation is the html5lib impl of those two steps
  201. # [16:18] <Philip`> That's setting node to the element prior to node, before removing node
  202. # [16:18] <Philip`> which is the opposite order to what the spec says
  203. # [16:21] <annevk> i guess the spec needs to be clarified then
  204. # [16:21] * Philip` will probably email something once he's worked out what's meant to be going on in the algorithm
  205. # [16:24] <annevk> bugs :(
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  215. # [17:57] <annevk> gsnedders, someone else pointed out the changes I needed to make for ABNF fancyness
  216. # [17:58] <gsnedders> annevk: ah, so I need not do anything?
  217. # [18:00] <annevk> right, though you may review
  218. # [18:00] <annevk> and maybe answer a question
  219. # [18:00] <annevk> does ABNF do #rule ?
  220. # [18:00] <gsnedders> # being a number? yes
  221. # [18:00] <annevk> HTTP #rule
  222. # [18:01] <gsnedders> meaning what?
  223. # [18:01] * gsnedders is slightly confused now
  224. # [18:04] <annevk> a comma-seperated list
  225. # [18:07] * Philip` sees that the 'has an element in scope' algorithm deceptively is used in two quite different ways, one checking for a specific element and one checking for any element with a name in a given set
  226. # [18:07] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
  227. # [18:15] * Philip` wonders if anyone knows of a bug where Firefox on Linux shifts a random set of characters up or down by one codepoint
  228. # [18:15] * gavin doesn't
  229. # [18:15] <gavin> sounds nasty!
  230. # [18:15] <Philip`> like changing all spaces into "!"s, or changing the world "element" into "dldmdnt"
  231. # [18:16] <Philip`> s/world/word/
  232. # [18:16] <gsnedders> annevk: what's the original that you're trying to go from?
  233. # [18:16] <Philip`> I just saw it happen to someone, but he fixed it by restarting the browser
  234. # [18:18] <annevk> gsnedders, http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/#access-control0
  235. # [18:18] <gsnedders> annevk: that doesn't make sense in the original if it should be comma-seperated, off the top of my head
  236. # [18:20] <gsnedders> annevk: rule *("," *LWS rules) — I think that would do
  237. # [18:20] <annevk> the idea is to :allow <*>, deny <*>, allow <*>
  238. # [18:20] <gsnedders> s/rules/rule/
  239. # [18:20] <annevk> do you need *LWS ?
  240. # [18:20] * annevk thought LWS was already multiple
  241. # [18:21] <gsnedders> I have no idea. In RFC2616?
  242. # [18:21] <gsnedders> IIRC no
  243. # [18:21] <gsnedders> RFC2616 seems to use *LWS a lot
  244. # [18:22] <gsnedders> LWS = [CRLF] 1*( SP | HT )
  245. # [18:22] <gsnedders> and it's implicit *LWS that's allowed in HTTP
  246. # [18:23] <gsnedders> RFC2616's BNF seems to have implicit commas, but ABNF doesn't
  247. # [18:23] <gsnedders> annevk: rule *(*LWS "," *LWS rule)
  248. # [18:24] <gsnedders> *LWS rule *(*LWS "," *LWS rule)
  249. # [18:24] <gsnedders> that's the equivalent
  250. # [18:24] <annevk> holy crap
  251. # [18:24] <gsnedders> RFC2616's BNF is made to make HTTP easy to spec in BNF
  252. # [18:25] <gsnedders> in most cases you don't want implicit comma separated lists
  253. # [18:25] <annevk> maybe I should use RFC2616 BNF
  254. # [18:25] <gsnedders> 2616bis may move to ABNF too, so maybe we get that there :)
  255. # [18:25] <annevk> as it's about HTTP after all
  256. # [18:26] <annevk> and i don't want it to be vastly different from HTTP
  257. # [18:26] <annevk> oh well, got to run
  258. # [18:26] <gsnedders> me too
  259. # [18:26] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
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  262. # [18:47] * Philip` gives in and writes an imperative function
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  265. # [18:57] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
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  271. # [19:13] * Philip` gets half of the adoption agency algorithm to type-check
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  273. # [19:36] <Philip`> So, I hope steps 6-8 are equivalent to: Remove all items from open-stack between furthest-block and formatting-element that are not in active-list. Set bookmark to be after the first element in that open-stack range that is also in active-list. Fold all the elements in that range into a tree, with some cloning, then fold that into common-ancestor.
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  287. # [21:19] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66)
  288. # [21:19] <annevk> http://norman.walsh.name/2008/02/07/xml105e
  289. # [21:22] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  290. # [21:22] <hsivonen> I suppose I should find time to write a comment to the effect of too little too late and causes uncertainty and interop problems to the very people it is supposed to help
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  298. # [22:11] <Lachy> XML1 5th ed. sounds ok. Although I haven't read the spec, I assume new documents written that contain previously forbidden characters will fail well formedness checks in older parsers.
  299. # [22:11] <Lachy> I don't see that as a major problem, but there will be a significant transitional period
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  311. # [23:07] <gsnedders> Lachy: your assumption is correct
  312. # [23:07] <gsnedders> Lachy: I doubt it'll take wrong, basically change 1.1 mode into 1.x mode
  313. # [23:15] <jgraham_> gsnedders: The relevant timescale is not the time to implement but the time for existing deployments to be updated
  314. # [23:15] <jgraham_> (asumming you meant s/wrong/long/)
  315. # [23:19] <Philip`> It'll be fun for people who try to be careful and do well-formedness checks before passing user-provided data into some backend system
  316. # [23:36] <gsnedders> jgraham_: yeah, I did
  317. # [23:36] <gsnedders> I'm too tired to typ
  318. # [23:36] <gsnedders> *type
  319. # [23:38] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@user-1087kf0.cable.mindspring.com)
  320. # [23:40] <sayrer> I have a way to work around the XHR issues that Microsoft has
  321. # [23:40] <sayrer> new XMLHttpRequest('<meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=8" />')
  322. # [23:40] <sayrer> that will trigger their compatibility mode
  323. # [23:41] <Philip`> Uh, how is that meant to work?
  324. # [23:42] <sayrer> perfectly!
  325. # [23:43] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  326. # [23:43] <Philip`> By what mechanism is that meant to work perfectly?
  327. # [23:43] <sayrer> AJAX
  328. # [23:44] <Philip`> *confused* :-(
  329. # [23:45] <Philip`> I still think Microsoft should run a database of all web pages to say what IE-compatibility mode they should be rendered with
  330. # [23:46] <Philip`> They've already got the right infrastructure from the phishing filter
  331. # [23:48] <jgraham_> Philip`: Given much of the problem is with intranet pages...
  332. # Session Close: Fri Feb 08 00:00:00 2008

The end :)