/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 15 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:05] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
  4. # [00:17] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-211-105.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
  5. # [00:17] <Dashiva> annevk: Where?
  6. # [00:19] <annevk> freenode, nm though, you're on w3.org too :)
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  9. # [00:47] <Hixie> Philip`: the reason one is a list and one is as stack (despite neither being either) is exactly because it makes them easier to distinguish
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  16. # [01:12] <Hixie> since the htmlwg is having a meeting, let's have one too.
  17. # [01:12] <Hixie> anyone have any outstanding action items?
  18. # [01:12] <Hixie> oh look, we've never assigned any.
  19. # [01:12] <Hixie> ok, meeting over.
  20. # [01:12] <billmason> Please come run my company's next monthly meeting.
  21. # [01:13] <Hixie> my solution to meetings is very simple
  22. # [01:13] <Hixie> i refuse to attend any meeting that recurrs
  23. # [01:13] <Hixie> i welcome anyone to book me to any meeting they like, but if it recurrs, i won't go.
  24. # [01:14] * Joins: bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest)
  25. # [01:14] <Hixie> (i also generally refuse action items that i can't do during the meeting)
  26. # [01:14] <billmason> I think I'll put that on a t-shirt. "i refuse to attend any meeting that recurrs"
  27. # [01:15] <takkaria> Hixie: a novel approach, but you have to grant a bit of beaurocracy
  28. # [01:15] <Hixie> why?
  29. # [01:15] <Hixie> we've managed the whatwg pretty well without any
  30. # [01:15] <jruderman> billmason: fix the typo first (recurrs -> recurs)
  31. # [01:15] <Hixie> i was wondering about that
  32. # [01:16] <jruderman> i have 2-3 recurring meetings every week, each about an hour
  33. # [01:16] <Hixie> i'm so sorry
  34. # [01:16] <takkaria> Hixie: just because the w3 is actually a beaurocracy, and to be a valid one, it needs recurring meetings and action item trackers and all that
  35. # [01:16] <jruderman> hehe
  36. # [01:17] <Hixie> takkaria: so you're saying i have to allow the w3 to be a valid bureaucracy?
  37. # [01:17] <Hixie> i'd rather not :-)
  38. # [01:17] <takkaria> I'm not even saying you should go to the meetings
  39. # [01:18] <takkaria> I'm just saying that getting html5 the w3c patent review and all that outweighs the silly meetings
  40. # [01:19] <Hixie> i agree that the patent policy is a useful thing
  41. # [01:19] <Hixie> the jury's still out on whether the cost of working through the w3c outweighs the benefit of the patent policy
  42. # [01:20] <Lachy> I have annoying daily project meetings at work, lasting up to half an hour. I hate it
  43. # [01:20] <Hixie> DAILY?!
  44. # [01:20] <Lachy> yes
  45. # [01:20] <Hixie> jeez
  46. # [01:21] <billmason> I used to be on a project like that. It was one of the reasons I got off of it....
  47. # [01:22] <bewest> I'm attempting to use html5lib to process a vml document. vml doesn't support css very well, so if I want to use a common stylesheet to apply styles to both svg and vml documents representing the same thing, I'll need to parse the stylesheet, find all the elements seeming to match any rules, and then translate the properties of applying rules into a dom transformation that will apply the desired styles
  48. # [01:23] <Hixie> i have three recuring meetings total, one every two weeks which is pretty much the only time i meet my team mates and find out wtf they're doing, one every week which is the campus-wide beer-and-news-and-questions-for-the-management fest, and one semi-annual (or quarterly? i forget) team week, of which i only attend half.
  49. # [01:23] <Hixie> bewest: so you want a css parser?
  50. # [01:24] * SadEagle is now known as AwayEagle
  51. # [01:24] <bewest> yes, among other things
  52. # [01:24] <bewest> I think the cssutils python package is probably usable
  53. # [01:24] <bewest> I think I need to use the etree builder with html5lib
  54. # [01:25] <bewest> when I tried this, etree complains about the doctype before the treebuilder has finished instanciating
  55. # [01:25] <takkaria> Hixie: what kind of team are you on? are you all web standards-related people or is it just a "misc" team?
  56. # [01:25] <bewest> (before parsing begins)
  57. # [01:26] <Hixie> takkaria: i'm in the open source program office. same team that does google summer of code, googlecode.com, etc
  58. # [01:26] <takkaria> ah, I see
  59. # [01:26] <Hixie> we're kind of an "odds and ends" team
  60. # [01:26] <Hixie> but mostly open-source related
  61. # [01:27] <bewest> can anyone suggest alternative strategies I should try to acheive consistent styling across vml and svg?
  62. # [01:28] <bewest> does html5lib expect certain versions of etree?
  63. # [01:31] <bewest> http://dpaste.com/35244/ is the traceback of http://dpaste.com/35245/
  64. # [01:33] <bewest> my understanding is that I should be able to get etree to turn a css selector into an xpath
  65. # [01:34] <bewest> hmmm maybe I should check the treebuilder's source for compatibility hints
  66. # [01:38] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  67. # [01:39] <bewest> Hixie: can you tell your teammates that the svn browser on googlecode breaks the back button?
  68. # [01:39] <Hixie> it does?L
  69. # [01:40] <Hixie> aaah
  70. # [01:40] <Hixie> they changed the interface
  71. # [01:40] <Hixie> wtf
  72. # [01:41] <bewest> indeed
  73. # [01:41] <Hixie> wow yeah, that's annoying
  74. # [01:42] <bewest> very
  75. # [01:42] <bewest> makes the interface much less efficient
  76. # [01:42] <Hixie> seems you can still get to the old interface
  77. # [01:43] * bewest doesn't see how
  78. # [01:43] <Hixie> go to a file
  79. # [01:43] <Hixie> choose "raw view"
  80. # [01:43] <Hixie> and then navigate from that uri
  81. # [01:43] <bewest> aha
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  83. # [01:45] <Hixie> apparently it's a known bug
  84. # [01:45] <bewest> if it ain't broke... ;-)
  85. # [01:46] <Hixie> well, the old ui didn't show revisions
  86. # [01:46] <bewest> oh
  87. # [01:46] <Hixie> which apparently was a huge issue
  88. # [01:46] <bewest> yeah, it's nice to have revisions
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  92. # [02:54] <Hixie> ps. i hate utf-16
  93. # [02:55] * Hixie grumbles at anne for making the utf-16 disease creep into svg
  94. # [03:06] <Lachy> Hixie, what's exactly is the UTF-16 disease?
  95. # [03:11] <roc> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/01/string_theory.html
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  110. # [06:22] * Hixie ponders how to make pushState() work when you cross them when the document isn't active
  111. # [06:22] <Hixie> consider something like this:
  112. # [06:25] <Hixie> new browsing context, navigate to A. navigate to B. pushState B1, pushState B2. navigate to C.
  113. # [06:25] <Hixie> now go back twice, activating B1 and B2 so that the current entry is B1
  114. # [06:26] <Hixie> now go back twice again, which puts you on A.
  115. # [06:26] <Hixie> now jump to the end, which puts you on C.
  116. # [06:26] <Hixie> now go back one.
  117. # [06:27] <Hixie> we need both B1 and B2 to fire, but...
  118. # [06:29] <Hixie> hmm, pushState() as defined doesn't work right at all
  119. # [06:29] <Hixie> well bummer.
  120. # [06:42] <Hixie> hmmmmmmmm
  121. # [06:42] <Hixie> so it seems we need an event to fire when you switch to an entry that isn't a state entry
  122. # [06:42] <Hixie> then everything is fine
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  138. # [10:13] <annevk> Hixie, hmm, I wasn't the one who added that test, I'm just fixing SVG to be consistent :p
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  147. # [10:54] <jgraham> hsivonen: You might be interested in http://blog.mozilla.com/dmandelin/2008/02/14/wtf-16/
  148. # [10:56] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks. Yeah, UTF-16 is overall a mistake. For some environments (like Java) it is a mistake not worth fixing, though.
  149. # [10:57] <jruderman> why? because Java is dead?
  150. # [10:57] <hsivonen> jruderman: no, because having an undisturbed Java-wide consistent UTF is too useful
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  153. # [11:00] <hsivonen> I think roc is right about iterators
  154. # [11:00] <hsivonen> in general, it is a mistake to let app code index into the string backing buffer
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  162. # [11:53] <Lachy_> annevk, yt?
  163. # [11:54] <Lachy_> annevk, to address Boris' comment about supporting the same set of selectors in both CSS and Selectors API, should I make that a SHOULD or MUST requirement?
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  166. # [12:02] <hsivonen> hmm. Firefox 2 makes the whole GUI on Mac OS X 10.5.2 unusable
  167. # [12:02] <hsivonen> for me at least. repeatedly
  168. # [12:02] <hsivonen> no such problem with minefield
  169. # [12:02] <gsnedders> working fine here
  170. # [12:03] <gsnedders> (but admittedly, I don't use Fx much)
  171. # [12:03] <hsivonen> I guess it is time to migrate my main profile to Firefox 3
  172. # [12:04] <Lachy_> annevk, I have added this to the spec. "If the user agent also supports some level of CSS, the implementation must support the same set of set of selectors that are supported by the CSS implementation."
  173. # [12:04] <Lachy_> I'll check it into cvs later
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  183. # [13:08] <annevk> Lachy, looks good
  184. # [13:23] <hsivonen> annevk: is the xml-dev thread about slimming XML on your XML5 radar?
  185. # [13:24] <annevk> no
  186. # [13:24] <annevk> sounds good though
  187. # [13:28] <annevk> I got the SVG WG to use 16-bit units btw...
  188. # [13:28] <hsivonen> nice
  189. # [13:29] <hsivonen> http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200802/msg00149.html
  190. # [14:08] <annevk> have I got it right that postMessage() can be implemented as in the spec and that whatever extension will come will be on top of that?
  191. # [14:09] <annevk> or is postMessage() going to be revised soonish, once again?
  192. # [14:13] <zcorpan> current spec: void postMessage(in DOMString message, in DOMString origin);
  193. # [14:13] <zcorpan> Hixie's proposal: void postMessage(in DOMString message, in EndPoint endPoint, in DOMString origin);
  194. # [14:14] <annevk> true, but is that done through overloading or should only the latter be supported?
  195. # [14:15] <annevk> i guess my real question is what Firefox 3 will ship so we can align with them
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  198. # [14:44] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2008Feb/thread.html#msg26
  199. # [14:44] <annevk> public-xml-core-wg realizing how the Web functions
  200. # [14:46] <Philip`> Hmm, I get an infinite loop on <table><tr><table> (whereas html5lib and validator.nu don't), and I can't tell that I'm wrong
  201. # [14:48] <annevk> that's <table><tr></table>, no?
  202. # [14:49] <zcorpan> <table><tr></table><table> i think
  203. # [14:49] <annevk> yeah
  204. # [14:50] <Philip`> The <table> gets reprocessed in "in table" mode, which creates a </table> that gets processed in that mode, which generates implied end tags, and the current node is a <tr> so it generates a </tr>, which gets ignored because it's "in table"
  205. # [14:50] <Philip`> (and then it generates implied end tags for eternity)
  206. # [14:50] <zcorpan> Act as if an end tag token with the tag name "table" had been seen, then, if that token wasn't ignored, reprocess the current token.
  207. # [14:50] <zcorpan> Note: The fake end tag token here can only be ignored in the fragment case.
  208. # [14:51] <Philip`> It never gets as far as that "if"
  209. # [14:51] <Philip`> because the act-as-if-</table> never terminates
  210. # [14:52] <annevk> Philip`, only <table> should be treated as-if
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  212. # [14:52] <annevk> not the other new tokens
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  214. # [14:53] <Philip`> Hmm, that seems quite non-obvious
  215. # [14:55] <Philip`> I've interpreted it as being "old = mode; mode = InTable; process(<table>); if (mode wasn't changed while processing) mode = old"
  216. # [15:02] <annevk> we do mode = newmode; process(...); mode = currentmode
  217. # [15:02] <annevk> iirc
  218. # [15:04] <Philip`> Wouldn't that mean the </table> which gets generated and processed inside the process(...) would be done in 'newmode' ("in table") too?
  219. # [15:05] <Philip`> Seems to just do self.parser.phases["inTable"].processStartTag(name, attributes)
  220. # [15:06] <annevk> yeah, sorry
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  222. # [15:08] <hsivonen> Philip`: IIRC, at least in v.nu parser old mode is only needed for moving from the endgame back to in body or in frameset
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  227. # [15:28] <gsnedders> ergh. the spec-gen is so badly documented.
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  231. # [16:12] <annevk> Lachy, why does the latest CVS version not use the Editor's draft template?
  232. # [16:12] <annevk> can I quickly fix that, as well as the date?
  233. # [16:12] <annevk> or are you editing?
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  235. # [16:28] <Lachy> I've made some edits that still need to be checked in
  236. # [16:29] <annevk> oh, ok
  237. # [16:29] <Lachy> crap, it should be using the editor's draft template.
  238. # [16:29] <annevk> can you do that?
  239. # [16:30] <Lachy> Yes, it will get fixed with the next check in
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  241. # [16:31] <annevk> i meant checking in
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  243. # [16:33] <annevk> Hmm, Android SDK includes Ogg Vorbis
  244. # [16:33] <annevk> i did not know
  245. # [16:34] <Lachy> all fixed
  246. # [16:35] <Philip`> Hmph, html5lib cheats with reprocessing and fostering
  247. # [16:35] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@77.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  248. # [16:35] <Philip`> like if you say <table><a><a> then the implied </a> doesn't go through the "in table" mode
  249. # [16:35] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@77.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  250. # [16:35] * Lachy needs to learn how to use W3C CVS from my Mac, instead of having to do it from my home PC all the time
  251. # [16:36] <annevk> you can only say cheats if we fail a test :)
  252. # [16:36] <hsivonen> Philip`: surely the top of the stack is no longer IN_TABLE at that point?
  253. # [16:36] <Philip`> You fail a test that does <table><a><a> and expects a certain number of parse errors :-)
  254. # [16:36] <annevk> Lachy, the date is still broken
  255. # [16:36] <hsivonen> or do I misremember stuff?
  256. # [16:36] <annevk> Lachy, you should omit the date parameter
  257. # [16:37] <hsivonen> it has been a while since I have thought about the tree builder
  258. # [16:37] <annevk> Philip`, it's ok to supress parse errors i believe :)
  259. # [16:37] <Philip`> hsivonen: Ah, yes, the </a> shouldn't get fostered, but it should still go through "in table" and generate a parse error
  260. # [16:38] * Philip` can't find an instance in html5lib where it would cause a different parse tree
  261. # [16:39] <Lachy> oops, I still had the date set in my .bat file. Fixed
  262. # [16:41] <annevk> Lachy, did you see the e-mail about dumping StaticNodeList?
  263. # [16:41] <Lachy> the one from you in response to me?
  264. # [16:41] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  265. # [16:42] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Feb/0080.html ?
  266. # [16:42] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  267. # [16:42] <annevk> yeah
  268. # [16:42] <Lachy> I will do it
  269. # [16:42] <hsivonen> jgraham__: the commonality thread you replied to reminds me of http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/magazine/20wwln-freak-t.html?_r=4&ref=magazine&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
  270. # [16:43] <hsivonen> though sending that link to the list would probably be seen as a flame
  271. # [16:44] <Lachy> it's a rather complicated change, since I need to change/remove all occurrences of StaticNodeList, define the NodeList to be returned as not live and make sure no errors are introduced in the process
  272. # [16:45] <annevk> true
  273. # [16:45] <Lachy> I'll give it a go
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  275. # [16:53] <Lachy> annevk, any suggested text for how to define the node list as static?
  276. # [16:55] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  277. # [16:56] <annevk> return the list of elements as a static object implementing the NodeList interface
  278. # [16:56] <annevk> something in that direction
  279. # [16:57] <annevk> or maybe "static NodeList object"
  280. # [17:02] * Philip` ends up changing his 'fostering' flag to be an integer, so he can handle nested fostering without cheating
  281. # [17:03] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tools/parser/?%3Ctable%3E%3Ctr%3E%3Ctable%3E - now with slightly fewer infinite loops, hooray
  282. # [17:06] <Lachy> annevk, "The NodeList object returned by the querySelectorAll() methods must not be live. Subsequent changes to the structure of the underlying document must not be reflected in the NodeList object. The object must instead contain a list of matching Element nodes that were in the document at the time the list was created."
  283. # [17:08] <annevk> s/must not be live/must be static/
  284. # [17:09] <annevk> or s/must not be live/must be static (not live)/
  285. # [17:09] <annevk> the other statements can be phrased as statements of facts instead of conformance criteria
  286. # [17:11] <Lachy> "must be static (not live)" works, where _live_ is a link to the defintion of live lists in DOM3
  287. # [17:11] <annevk> i think it's universally understood what it means, but you could do that
  288. # [17:12] <Lachy> yeah, I just wanted to make it absolutely clear
  289. # [17:14] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/mid/op.t2kr1qnf64w2qv@annevk-t60.oslo.opera.com - internal server error?
  290. # [17:14] <annevk> wfm
  291. # [17:14] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Nov/0000.html
  292. # [17:15] <Philip`> Oh, it worked on the third attempt
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  296. # [17:30] <annevk> oops... why did I confuse vorbis with theora...
  297. # [17:30] <Lachy> annevk, changes have been committed
  298. # [17:30] <Lachy> let me know if I buggered anything up
  299. # [17:31] * Lachy goes to friday beer
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  319. # [20:05] * gsnedders wonders how the spec-gen deals with broken stuff
  320. # [20:05] * csarven- is now known as csarven
  321. # [20:07] <Hixie> annevk: postMessage() is reasonable stable as currently in the spec
  322. # [20:07] <Hixie> the EndPoint extensions are backwards compatible
  323. # [20:11] <gsnedders> anyone know how to get all elements directly containing "foo" using XPath, and not any parent of a text node containing the string?
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  348. # [23:53] * jgraham considers posting hsivonen's NYT link to public-html
  349. # [23:54] <Hixie> hahaha
  350. # [23:54] * Hixie notices that the 404 page on acid3.acidtests.org is coming out as the favicon in certain browsers
  351. # [23:54] <Hixie> unexpected bug!
  352. # [23:55] <Hixie> jgraham: what does the article say?
  353. # [23:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: the article presents three cases where laws that are supposed to protect those who are worse off make their situation even worse my creating bad incentives for others
  354. # [23:59] <Hixie> a'h
  355. # [23:59] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@216.239.45.19)
  356. # [23:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: that Americans with Disabilities Act gives an incentive to doctors not to take deaf patient
  357. # Session Close: Sat Feb 16 00:00:00 2008

The end :)