/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Feb 18 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:07] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@202.0.36.64) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  4. # [00:09] * Hixie checks in the new <mark> element
  5. # [00:09] <webben> is that m with a longer name?
  6. # [00:10] <Hixie> yes
  7. # [00:10] <Hixie> the list of people bcc'ed on this e-mail is basically the list of people who contribute to the spec on a regular basis
  8. # [00:10] <Hixie> it's quite a long list
  9. # [00:10] <Hixie> like, 20+ names
  10. # [00:11] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  11. # [00:11] <Hixie> woot, that cleared out 74 e-mails in one go
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  13. # [00:11] <Lachy> woah, that's one long email!
  14. # [00:12] <Lachy> anything worth reading in it?
  15. # [00:12] <Hixie> it's basically summarised at the top
  16. # [00:12] <Hixie> i didn't add much commentary
  17. # [00:13] * Hixie optimistically deletes the "input-for-whatwg-semantics-phrasing-m" folder
  18. # [00:14] * weinig|food is now known as weinig
  19. # [00:25] <Hixie> so the next topic is <Cite>
  20. # [00:25] <Hixie> should it be only for citations, or for any title of work?
  21. # [00:25] <annevk> you could add an example that uses the irc logs which are hilited in exactly the suggested way
  22. # [00:25] <annevk> Hixie, only titles of work?
  23. # [00:26] <Hixie> is that a vote or a question? :-)
  24. # [00:27] <Lachy> people use it for titles of work in practice. I see no reason to restrict that
  25. # [00:27] <annevk> Hixie, it's what hsivonen and DanC want I think
  26. # [00:27] <Hixie> (and yeah, irc might be a good thing to add)
  27. # [00:28] <Hixie> brb, intermission shift
  28. # [00:28] <annevk> I've used it for citations, but only because I wanted to comply to HTML4...
  29. # [00:28] * Dashiva is shocked
  30. # [00:29] * Lachy giggles at yet another Stargate reference in the spec :-)
  31. # [00:30] <Dashiva> Will the conspiracy of light manage to sneak itself in there?
  32. # [00:30] <Lachy> Hixie, s/just under 39 minutes/just over 38 minutes/
  33. # [00:32] <Lachy> the only ones to last longer than a few seconds past 38 minutes had powerful energy sources keeping them open
  34. # [00:34] <Lachy> Hixie, s/and a large gravity well/or a large gravity well/
  35. # [00:44] * csarven reads Hixie's email
  36. # [00:47] <csarven> "The semantic in question isn't the kind of thing I would imagine would fit the microformat ethos." -- which is correct
  37. # [00:48] <tantek> which semantic?
  38. # [00:49] <csarven> <mark> (which was <m>)
  39. # [00:51] <csarven> tantek http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#the-mark
  40. # [00:52] <tantek> hmm.. last time i tried viewing the html5 spec it locked up firefox. not sure i want to click that link ;)
  41. # [00:59] * jgraham wonders what the use case of marking titles is
  42. # [01:02] <Lachy> tantek, here's the multipage version http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-phrase.html#the-mark
  43. # [01:04] <Lachy> but even the single page version shouldn't lock up firefox. I look at it all the time without any problems. It generally loads in about 5-10 seconds for me
  44. # [01:06] <jgraham> At one point I was having an issue with the spec and a ff extension, but I don't recall which one
  45. # [01:09] <Hixie> Lachy: a few seconds above 38 is a few seconds under 39 :-P
  46. # [01:09] <Hixie> and i think the conditions include A and B is correct
  47. # [01:10] <jgraham> To clarify, by "marking titles" above, I meant marking them up using <cite> rather than anything to do with <mark>
  48. # [01:11] <Hixie> jgraham: "my favourite book series is <cite>The Night Dawn's Trilogy</cite>."
  49. # [01:12] <webben> the HTML specs have been consistent in making cite mean citation not just title e.g. "The CITE element is used to indicate the title of a book or other citation" (HTML 2.0). "CITE used for citations or references to other sources" (HTML 3.2).
  50. # [01:12] <jgraham> Hixie: So, apart from the italics for visual presentation, why should I care that it's a book title rather than something else?
  51. # [01:12] <webben> it's also worth noting that not all titles are italicized
  52. # [01:13] <Hixie> jgraham: "So, apart from the italics for visual presentation, why should I care that it's emphasis rather than importance?"
  53. # [01:13] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@77.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  54. # [01:13] <webben> and if one were to restrict cite to titles that happen to be italicized in a particular citation style, it's hard to see any advantage of cite over i
  55. # [01:13] <jgraham> (Do non-visual UAs do something different for <cite> compared to e.g. <i>)?
  56. # [01:13] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@77.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  57. # [01:13] <webben> I'm not sure what they do.
  58. # [01:14] <tantek> csarven, agreed, the semantic of <mark> is better suited to HTML than a microformat. it sounds like a special purpose <em> element IMHO.
  59. # [01:15] <webben> Probably the most interesting consuming agent to look at would be Zotero, see if they do anything with it.
  60. # [01:15] <webben> (or would like to do anything with it)
  61. # [01:15] <jgraham> Hixie: in the case of something generic like emphasis v importance, I can imagine that there will be a presentational distinction in all media
  62. # [01:15] <jgraham> and many uses
  63. # [01:16] <tantek> jgraham, if a UA knows semantically that something is the name of a book or other such reference, it may be possible for it to look it up in various citation references, or points of viewing/previewing/purchase.
  64. # [01:16] <Hixie> jgraham: i guess the real question is whether we should define "citation" as only something to which more than a passing reference is made, or whether any reference to another work is enough to be considered a citation
  65. # [01:16] <jgraham> tantek: Is that realistic, given how non-unique titles of works are?
  66. # [01:16] <webben> Hixie: Agreed that a big problem with CITE is clarifying what citation is. e.g. not quotation
  67. # [01:17] <csarven> tantek I agree. It appears to me more of an element that is used for visual or interaction then a semantic representation of some content. I can understand the real-world use cases but that tends to get into a gray area IMO
  68. # [01:17] <Lachy> Hixie, the series always said 38 minutes, and most close closer to 38 minutes than to 39 minutes. (There was only one that lasted 38:34 in Chain Reaction, but that extra time was because the planet became a ball of plasma)
  69. # [01:17] <tantek> jgraham, seems to work well enough in practice, humans communicate names of movies, songs, books all the time and are able to get value out of such communication.
  70. # [01:17] <Hixie> jgraham: i would imagine it is realistic in the context of a specific site with some specific JS to do e.g. referrals to amazon
  71. # [01:17] <webben> Note that in academic circles, you cite people as sources not just works.
  72. # [01:18] <Hixie> Lachy: agreed
  73. # [01:18] <Lachy> Hixie, it needs to say "or" instead of "and" because the it only requires one or the other, not both
  74. # [01:18] <jgraham> tantek: It's not clear to me that all things that work well in two-way human-human conversation translate to good UI for browsers
  75. # [01:18] <Hixie> Lachy: (38 is a number in stargate used in much the same way as 47 in startrek)
  76. # [01:19] <Hixie> Lachy: the list includes A and B, i don't say "it can happen if A and B"
  77. # [01:19] <tantek> jgraham, we don't need "all things", just 80/20. no need to boil the ocean.
  78. # [01:19] * Lachy covers his ears and starts yelling "NOT LISTENING!" :-)
  79. # [01:19] <jgraham> To me a citation is specifically a work that is drawn on by the current work and should be referenced for background
  80. # [01:20] <tantek> Hixie, is that also true for wormholes between supergates?
  81. # [01:20] * Lachy chooses to believe the 38 minute limit can be explained by quantum mechanics
  82. # [01:20] <Lachy> :-)
  83. # [01:20] <jgraham> tantek: Still, I don't recally any of the systems for "helpfully" adding referral links to webpages based on keywords ever hitting anything like an 80/20 point for me
  84. # [01:20] <Hixie> bbl
  85. # [01:22] <tantek> jgraham, true, invisible meta keywords FAIL. visible tags FTW. also human-based folksonomy currently wins over "helpful" AI autotagging.
  86. # [01:23] * jgraham -> sleep
  87. # [01:23] <csarven> NLP is trying to solve a much greater problem which probably won't really be solved anytime 'soon'
  88. # [01:25] <csarven> (At least in digital computing)
  89. # [01:25] <tantek> csarven, true. just let the singularity solve the NLP problem.
  90. # [01:26] <Hixie> (sorry, had a shift)
  91. # [01:27] <Hixie> tantek: no iea
  92. # [01:27] <Hixie> Lachy: long story short, it's just an example. :-P
  93. # [01:28] <Hixie> anyway. we clearly must keep <cite>, and since we're keeping it, how to define it is key
  94. # [01:28] <webben> systems referring users to for-pay systems are probably a bit less useful (and of course, a bit more profitable) than something referring users to e.g. a university library resource resolver
  95. # [01:28] <Hixie> i'm not going off for a few hours. got another shfit and then i'm off to the other side of the stage and then to dinner.
  96. # [01:28] <Hixie> bbl.
  97. # [01:28] <Hixie> i'll read any insights you have upon my return :-)
  98. # [01:29] <Philip`> "I also have some <mark>kitten</mark>s" - that makes me wonder whether "<mark>kittens</mark>" would be acceptable (from a cleverer search engine that detects words with the same basic meaning, rather than doing substring matches, and it might get <mark>young cat</mark> too)
  99. # [01:31] <Philip`> (I believe it is perfectly acceptable, but the example makes me wonder anyway, so maybe the example could say <mark>kittens</mark> to be clear that it's not meant to be strict about anything)
  100. # [01:31] <webben> it's intriguing folks aren't sure CITE is 100% semantically appropriate for citations in zotero's output: http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/2169/
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  102. # [01:32] <webben> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Citation also interesting
  103. # [01:33] <Philip`> "<pre><code>int x = 1<mark></mark></code></pre> Error: expected semicolon; got EOF" - I guess that wouldn't work, which seems a problem if you want to use this for highlighting sections of code
  104. # [01:36] <Philip`> Is it safe to copy xkcd text without being affected by Creative Commons?
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  161. # [11:07] <annevk> jwalden, the security section already deals with cross-origin stuff
  162. # [11:07] <annevk> jwalden, also for setting fillStyle and strokeStyle
  163. # [11:09] <jwalden> sure; it doesn't, however, say that drawImage with a different-origin image should not throw
  164. # [11:10] <Philip`> Is it not possible to access the .complete of a different-origin image?
  165. # [11:11] <annevk> jwalden, it does
  166. # [11:12] <jwalden> where?
  167. # [11:12] <annevk> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-the-canvas.html#security1
  168. # [11:13] <jwalden> that just says origin-clean is set to false, not that it doesn't throw
  169. # [11:13] <annevk> oh right, sorry
  170. # [11:13] <annevk> why should drawing fail?
  171. # [11:13] <annevk> there's no risk there
  172. # [11:15] <jwalden> it can draw or not draw depending on whether the resource is a valid image, it just seems reasonable to say you shouldn't be able to differentiate the two for a different-origin image
  173. # [11:15] <jwalden> .complete doesn't say anything about origins
  174. # [11:15] <jwalden> which might make the concern moot, now that you mention it
  175. # [11:15] <annevk> onerror fails for non same-origin images too
  176. # [11:15] <annevk> euh, fires
  177. # [11:15] <annevk> s/fails/fires/
  178. # [11:17] <jwalden> hrm
  179. # [11:17] <jwalden> so basically, worrying about this is probably not worthwhile, I guess
  180. # [11:18] <annevk> yeah
  181. # [11:19] <annevk> certainly <canvas> wouldn't be the place to fix the issue
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  203. # [15:33] <annevk> for 'setAttribute(a, v1); v2 = getAttribute(a)' v1 != v2 when a is style in Gecko (for some values of v1)
  204. # [15:34] <annevk> oops
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  208. # [15:44] <hendry> anyone going to www2008.org in Beijing? i need some motivation
  209. # [15:45] <annevk> my manager prolly
  210. # [15:46] <annevk> aka chaals
  211. # [15:46] <Lachy> annevk, do you know if comments like this one, which don't require any action, need to be recorded in the disposition of comments? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Jan/0021.html
  212. # [15:47] <annevk> explicit endorsement is never bad, i'd add it
  213. # [15:49] <Lachy> done
  214. # [15:56] <Lachy> I wonder how I can deal with this comment http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Feb/0104.html
  215. # [15:57] <Lachy> I don't know what the spec should say about the issue
  216. # [15:57] <Lachy> of NSResolver mutating the DOM
  217. # [15:59] <Lachy> I wonder if I could say that, due to the possibility of the NSResolver mutating the DOM, that all prefixes must be resolved before looking for matching elements
  218. # [16:00] <Lachy> that way, if NSResolver did modify the dom, then all modifications would have occurred before the UA began looking
  219. # [16:03] <annevk> "
  220. # [16:03] <annevk> Now maybe you're actually requiring that the number of calls to the NSResolver
  221. # [16:03] <annevk> for any given selector and initial DOM tree is bounded in the face of all
  222. # [16:03] <annevk> possible mutations by the NSResolver and that hence the DOM will at some point
  223. # [16:03] <annevk> stabilize and it will be possible to return the things the spec requires be
  224. # [16:03] <annevk> returned. But if that's a constraint you want to place on implementations, you
  225. # [16:03] <annevk> should probably spell it out clearly."
  226. # [16:03] <annevk> is what I think the spec already says
  227. # [16:03] <annevk> but we could add a paragraph that spells it out clearly
  228. # [16:03] <hendry> annevk: met charges at MWC2008 in Barcelona, aka HELL
  229. # [16:03] <annevk> Lachy, indeed
  230. # [16:10] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  231. # [16:11] <Philip`> Lachy: s/exersise/exercise/ in the note about case-mapping
  232. # [16:12] <Lachy> fixed
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  235. # [16:29] <Lachy> annevk, how does this sound:
  236. # [16:29] <Lachy> Elements returned by these methods must include only matching Element nodes, which were present in the document after all namespaces that the implemented needed to resolve, have been resolved.
  237. # [16:29] <Lachy> Note: This is to ensure that any DOM modifications performed by a misbehaving namespace resolver have occurred prior to matching any elements.
  238. # [16:29] <Lachy> s/implemented/implementation/
  239. # [16:31] <Philip`> The first sentence doesn't sound right - if someone queried for "a b" then the resolver moved the 'b' outside the 'a' (but kept it present in the document elsewhere), it's not clear that it shouldn't be matched
  240. # [16:32] <hendry> s/charges/chaals/ woops
  241. # [16:34] <Lachy> Philip`, then it would no longer be a matching element node
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  243. # [16:36] <Lachy> I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer. Elements are only determined to match at the they are evaluated with the selector
  244. # [16:36] <Philip`> It was a matching element node (before the resolving), so it is one of the matching nodes which is still present in the document
  245. # [16:36] <Lachy> but the implementation wouldn't know that it was matching until it started looking for it
  246. # [16:36] <Philip`> *still present in the document after the resolving
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  249. # [16:40] <Lachy> hmm. I just realised my current defintions of element.querySelector require the matching elements to be within the document, but that wouldn't be the case if the element itself wasn't in the document
  250. # [16:41] <Lachy> oh, no they don't
  251. # [16:41] <Lachy> I misread it
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  253. # [16:42] <Philip`> "'Matching Element nodes' are the Element nodes that match after all NSResolver calls have been made" or something like that?
  254. # [16:43] <Philip`> Incidentally, "The implementation must process the selectors according to the grammar of Selectors ([Selectors], section 10)." should have small-caps "must"
  255. # [16:43] <Philip`> (as should "the implementation must act as if the nsresolver argument was set to null")
  256. # [16:54] <Lachy> fixed
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  258. # [16:55] <annevk> Lachy, I'm away for a while, just check in what you think is appropriate, i'll try to scream whenever it's not :p
  259. # [16:58] <Lachy> Elements returned by these methods must include only Element nodes that are present within the document or the element’s subtree that match the group of selectors after all namespaces that need to be resolved by the implementation, have been resolved.
  260. # [16:59] <Lachy> Philip`, how's that now?
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  262. # [16:59] <Lachy> s/subtree that/subtree and/
  263. # [17:00] <Lachy> this is the corrected version:
  264. # [17:00] <Lachy> Elements returned by these methods must only include Element nodes that are present within the document or the element’s subtree, and match the group of selectors after all namespaces that need to be resolved by the implementation, have been resolved.
  265. # [17:03] <jgraham_mibbit> Lachy: I think your commas are in the wrong places
  266. # [17:04] <jgraham_mibbit> Actually I just think that the last comma is wrong
  267. # [17:04] <jgraham_mibbit> (i.e. you should delete it)
  268. # [17:05] <Lachy> ok
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  270. # [17:12] <Lachy> hmm. I need to think about this some more. I'm not sure if it completely addresses Boris' comment
  271. # [17:15] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  272. # [17:15] <Philip`> Lachy: Sounds reasonable to me now
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  274. # [17:27] <zcorpan> should the presence of a ::selection rule set supress the default styles for selections?
  275. # [17:28] <zcorpan> s/rule/ruleset/
  276. # [17:29] <othermaciej> zcorpan: I think it's browser-specific how they combine
  277. # [17:33] * zcorpan thinks it should be defined
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  279. # [17:42] <othermaciej> zcorpan: the expected model would be different if the default selection style is something that can be itself achieved through style rule vs. if it is a totally custom rendering of some kind
  280. # [17:43] <Philip`> ::selected { display: none } /* Anti-Copy-And-Paste Script, copyright 2008 www.coolscripts.com */
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  282. # [17:44] <zcorpan> currently both opera and firefox supress default styles in the presence of ::selection (or ::-moz-selection)
  283. # [17:44] <zcorpan> Philip`: display doesn't apply
  284. # [17:44] <Philip`> Oh
  285. # [17:44] <zcorpan> Philip`: or it's not required to apply
  286. # [17:44] <othermaciej> the selection pseudo-element allows a limited set of style properties
  287. # [17:45] <othermaciej> in Safari, I think the background drawing still happens unless you explicitly suppress it
  288. # [17:45] <Philip`> ::selected { color: expression(alert("Anti-Copy-And-Paste!")) }
  289. # [17:46] <zcorpan> supressing the default styles is different from how css usually works, so not what i had expected
  290. # [17:48] <zcorpan> oh wait, opera doesn't supress unless there's a color or background property, it seems
  291. # [17:51] <othermaciej> Safari models it as a magical background-color property basically, although there isn't an explicit rule for it in html4.css
  292. # [17:52] <hsivonen> othermaciej: does Apple disclose the mechanism of Safari content blocking when parental controls are enabled?
  293. # [17:53] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I'm not sure
  294. # [17:53] <hsivonen> othermaciej: ok
  295. # [17:53] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I believe the parent can set up a whitelist via bookmarks, but I don't know if there is more to it
  296. # [17:55] <hsivonen> othermaciej: there seems to be a middle setting where magic is supposed to happen in addition to parent-controlled white and blacklists
  297. # [17:55] <hsivonen> othermaciej: unlike IE, Safari doesn't say what the magic is
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  317. # [19:55] <zcorpan> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=151
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  322. # [20:14] <Lachy> I don't think introducing even more entities is a good idea
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  324. # [20:20] * Joins: h3h (n=h3h@74.211.138.130)
  325. # [20:25] <h3h> so I'm trying to come up with the most reasonable/portable way to represent this data as HTML: http://h3h.net/images/data-representation-01.png
  326. # [20:26] <h3h> I think a DL matches somewhat, so this would be good: http://pastie.caboo.se/153841
  327. # [20:26] <h3h> but I can't think of a way to style that reliably
  328. # [20:27] <jwalden> if you care about portability, I think you lose; I'm not sure how you'd work with that other than with ~ or + selectors
  329. # [20:27] <h3h> right. even then, separating the dt/dd+ blocks from one another is near impossible
  330. # [20:27] <h3h> so I guess each data block has to be its own table or dl
  331. # [20:28] <h3h> supremely disappointing
  332. # [20:29] <jwalden> <div><h3>Members</h3><div>stuff [<br /> more stuff]</div></div> or something
  333. # [20:29] <h3h> yeah, but then I have the same sibling grouping problem
  334. # [20:30] <Lachy> h3h, looks like a job for nested tables :-)
  335. # [20:30] <h3h> tables really don't work because they assume a specific row/column layout
  336. # [20:30] <jwalden> .outer > .inner { } .outer > .header { } ?
  337. # [20:30] <h3h> in this case I just have header:data groupings
  338. # [20:30] <h3h> which could be displayed vertically, horizontally, or otherwise
  339. # [20:31] <Lachy> then dl/dt/dd might be appropriate, though may be difficult to achieve the intended style
  340. # [20:31] <h3h> so it would have to be more like <div class="stats"><div class="stat"><h3>Header</h3><p>data</p></div> <div class="stat"><h3>Header 2</h3><p>data 2</p></div> ...</div>
  341. # [20:31] <h3h> which is disgusting, frankly
  342. # [20:32] <h3h> yeah, I think I'm going to have to go with a new DL for each one
  343. # [20:32] <jwalden> it's web development :-)
  344. # [20:32] <h3h> less terrible than the alternatives
  345. # [20:33] <h3h> it's like I want the semantics of a "table row" (which can contain a header and one or more data elements) without the notion of an actual row
  346. # [20:34] <h3h> the simplest table markup would be perfect if I could style it vertically
  347. # [20:35] <h3h> table-layout: transposed; or something :)
  348. # [20:38] <h3h> actually, I might be able to pull that off...
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  352. # [20:48] <h3h> hah: http://paste.css-standards.org/32610/view
  353. # [20:48] <h3h> though it displays upside down in Safari
  354. # [20:49] * Joins: csarven (n=nevrasc@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  355. # [20:50] <h3h> and sideways in IE
  356. # [20:50] <h3h> Firefox and Opera get the prize for simplest reverse engineering of default styles
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  360. # [21:04] <SadEagle> h3h: try making it strict
  361. # [21:04] <h3h> hm good point
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  363. # [21:05] <h3h> ah nice shooting. works fine with strict
  364. # [21:06] <h3h> in Safari
  365. # [21:06] <h3h> IE still sucks of course
  366. # [21:06] <Dashiva> Would you have it any other way?
  367. # [21:06] <h3h> :(
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  375. # [21:31] <Hixie> othermaciej lives!
  376. # [21:31] <othermaciej> hello Hixie
  377. # [21:31] <othermaciej> I've been on vacation the past week
  378. # [21:31] <othermaciej> back now
  379. # [21:31] <Hixie> so i heard
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  382. # [21:32] <Hixie> you might be interested in http://hixie.ch/specs/dom/messages/0.9 and http://hixie.ch/specs/dom/workers/0.9
  383. # [21:32] <Hixie> once you've dealt with your e-mail
  384. # [21:32] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.98.100)
  385. # [21:32] <jruderman> Hixie: are you serious about "The eyes go orange if you view the test zoomed in or zoomed out: This is a bug."?
  386. # [21:32] <jruderman> see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=418235#c6
  387. # [21:33] <jruderman> expecting that transparency offset thing to work when zoomed seems a bit much
  388. # [21:37] <roc> so Hixie's saying that image scaling algorithms that use any kind of interpolation are not allowed?
  389. # [21:39] <Hixie> it's certainly suboptimal
  390. # [21:40] <Hixie> one could imagine a perfect UA that rendered all the graphics at 1:1, then scaled the composited graphic down
  391. # [21:40] <Hixie> and then overlapped the text on top of that
  392. # [21:40] <Hixie> i'm not saying that's necessarily even remotely easy or likely to ever be implemented
  393. # [21:41] <roc> actually that is feasible, it's full-screen antialiasing
  394. # [21:41] <roc> but it
  395. # [21:41] <roc> 's expensive
  396. # [21:41] <Hixie> i'm sure
  397. # [21:42] <Hixie> but it's hard to argue that it's not what is intended by the author :-)
  398. # [21:42] <jruderman> hopefully this issue doesn't come up much in real-world web pages :)
  399. # [21:42] <Hixie> probably comes up more than you'd like, and less than makes it worth it :-)
  400. # [21:43] <roc> well, in this case we might wilfully ignore the author's intent since interpolation produces good results for real Web pages
  401. # [21:43] <roc> as in, I haven't seen a real bug filed related to this
  402. # [21:44] <Hixie> well we haven't shipped zoom yet :-)
  403. # [21:45] <roc> true, and IIRC only Mac builds use interpolation
  404. # [21:45] <roc> but still, there are something like 300K active beta3 users
  405. # [21:47] <Hixie> rue
  406. # [21:47] <Hixie> true
  407. # [21:49] <Hixie> like i said, i doubt that it's worth fixing
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  409. # [21:49] <Hixie> bbl
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  430. # [23:02] <hsivonen> hmm. now internationalization and accessibility & ethics are at odds: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Feb/0030.html
  431. # [23:04] <annevk> i've given up reading through his replies
  432. # [23:06] * annevk wonders how fast his note about <object> will cause a stirr
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  434. # [23:07] * Dashiva wonders if annevk did it on purpose
  435. # [23:07] <annevk> well, I did want to point out that his point of view has caused issues in the past, but I didn't want to say too much
  436. # [23:08] <annevk> I think it's rather well put, but probably only if you agree with my line of thought
  437. # [23:11] <hsivonen> annevk: well, gotta love a situation where one way leads to getting accused of breaking accessibility and the other would lead to accusations of breaking internationalization
  438. # [23:13] <annevk> It's hard for me to see what his real issue is. That some browsers are still broken?
  439. # [23:14] <hsivonen> annevk: so I gather from his feedback
  440. # [23:14] <annevk> ok, so I did read the important parts
  441. # [23:14] <hsivonen> of course, it is well-known that there are older versions of IE still out there that don't support IDN
  442. # [23:14] <hsivonen> but IE7 supports IDN, right?
  443. # [23:14] <annevk> guess first sentence/last sentence, first paragraph/last paragraph, might be applicable to e-mail too
  444. # [23:14] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah
  445. # [23:15] <annevk> they also experimented with IDN for e-mail I believe
  446. # [23:15] <jgraham> annevk: I think you're probably right about aria-* and <object>, at least from the pov of author confusion. I can't imagine any spec that forces us to deal with <label for="a">foo</label> <span id="b">bar</span> <input id="a" aria-labelledby="b"> is going to be easy for authors to understand
  447. # [23:16] <annevk> "well, if the OBJECT model failed, it was due to lousy implementation decisions"
  448. # [23:16] <Dashiva> Ouch: "Some weeks ago you quoted an ISO standard I haven't heard of before for your definition of "valid". If that ISO standard has "congruent de facto guidance" in its definition trash it or maybe put it where you have DIS 29500."
  449. # [23:16] <hsivonen> jgraham: I happen to have a use case for having an input labeled by a <select> :-)
  450. # [23:16] <annevk> score
  451. # [23:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: and <label> doesn't work due to the association by containment legacy misfeature
  452. # [23:17] <annevk> it's questionable whether you should use <select> there though or three separate forms
  453. # [23:18] <annevk> i guess both approaches are ok somehow
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  455. # [23:19] <jgraham> hsivonen: I don't think all the features are bad, just that making it all easy to understand will be tough
  456. # [23:20] <annevk> pretty clear that HD DVD is dead now
  457. # [23:20] <annevk> glad I didn't buy this Xbox add-on
  458. # [23:23] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.98.100)
  459. # [23:42] * Quits: csarven (n=nevrasc@on-irc.csarven.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  460. # [23:50] <aroben> hsivonen: do I remember hearing that you have some doctype parsing tests?
  461. # Session Close: Tue Feb 19 00:00:00 2008

The end :)