/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-19 / end

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  98. # [07:38] <Hixie> man, people have go to start realising that when an implementor says he's not doing something, arguing with him is a bad idea
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  103. # [08:02] <aroben> Hixie: do you know of any doctype parsing tests?
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  107. # [09:03] <Lachy> Hixie, which issue are you referring to, and who's arguing with them?
  108. # [09:04] <annevk> appformats list
  109. # [09:04] <annevk> or maybe webapi
  110. # [09:07] <Lachy> haven't read appformats in a while, not too sure what's going on there
  111. # [09:09] <annevk> wow, another ala on version targeting
  112. # [09:09] <Lachy> I uploaded my disposistion of comments last night http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api/disposition-of-comments
  113. # [09:09] <krijnh> Yeah :/
  114. # [09:11] <annevk> oh well, ala hasn't been interesting for a long time now
  115. # [09:11] <hsivonen> aroben: I'm known to have http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ but not test cases for parsing broken doctypes
  116. # [09:11] <aroben> hsivonen: ah, thanks
  117. # [09:12] <annevk> I think html5lib might have some
  118. # [09:12] <Lachy> hmm. I still never wrote anything about the version thingy this time round. maybe I should, if this ALA article says nothing but misinformation about it (again)
  119. # [09:13] <aroben> annevk: will look
  120. # [09:13] <annevk> aroben, http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/testdata/tokenizer/test3.test
  121. # [09:13] <annevk> http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/testdata/tokenizer/test2.test
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  123. # [09:14] <annevk> http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/testdata/tokenizer/test4.test
  124. # [09:14] <annevk> http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/testdata/tokenizer/test1.test
  125. # [09:14] <annevk> unfortunately not grouped
  126. # [09:14] <aroben> annevk: still very helpful
  127. # [09:18] <hsivonen> annevk: are the html5lib tests up to date with the recent change regarding '>'?
  128. # [09:18] <annevk> no :(
  129. # [09:23] <annevk> at least, not as far as I know
  130. # [09:25] <annevk> actually, yes, the tests are up to date thanks to Philip` it seems
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  133. # [09:36] <krijnh> annevk: no new stuff in the new ALA
  134. # [09:37] <annevk> boring
  135. # [09:38] <annevk> can someone tell me the result of http://tc.labs.opera.com/css/namespaces/ 002 and 003 in Safari?
  136. # [09:39] <aroben> annevk: in a recent nightly both of them have a green background
  137. # [09:40] <annevk> thanks
  138. # [09:40] <krijnh> In 3.0.4 as well
  139. # [09:40] <annevk> does Safari pass 001?
  140. # [09:40] <krijnh> Yes
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  142. # [10:00] <Lachy> I don't really understand Boris' last comment: "but it wouldn't address the issue of what implementations are allowed to actually do to stop misbehaving NSResolvers"
  143. # [10:01] <annevk> yeah, what's a misbehaving nsresolver?
  144. # [10:01] <annevk> i mean, you could of course do all kinds of quirky things in script, but that's not restricted to NSResolver
  145. # [10:01] <Lachy> how does resolving all namespaces prior to traversing the DOM, thus letting the NSResolver do anything it likes beforehand, get in the way of actually finding matches afterwards?
  146. # [10:02] * Lachy will respond
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  148. # [10:08] <krijnh> "Invited Expert will participate in the W3C Group in a decent way."
  149. # [10:12] <krijnh> A year by already
  150. # [10:16] <annevk> oh
  151. # [10:16] * annevk thought the HTML WG started in March
  152. # [10:17] <krijnh> A year minus 1 month then :)
  153. # [10:17] <krijnh> Have to reinvite myself as an expert..
  154. # [10:19] <annevk> i wonder how many people won't do that
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  156. # [10:21] <krijnh> I think you get bugged with a mail each week, until you say yes or no
  157. # [10:22] <krijnh> Pretty irritating, so saying "yes, I'm still teh expert you need!11" does the trick :)
  158. # [10:23] <hsivonen> krijnh: do (public) Invited Experts have to renew their participation annually or what is this about?
  159. # [10:23] <krijnh> Yeah, I guess so
  160. # [10:23] <krijnh> And there's a new EULA or something
  161. # [10:24] <hsivonen> krijnh: what's the diff in the "EULA"?
  162. # [10:24] <krijnh> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2007/06-invited-expert.html
  163. # [10:24] <krijnh> No idea, I'm not an invited expert on EULAs :p
  164. # [10:25] <krijnh> Prolly just a clarification for the 2002 version
  165. # [10:25] <krijnh> With new elements and a new API
  166. # [10:26] <krijnh> Can't they just create a new group for this? Invited Wannabe Experts or something..
  167. # [10:26] <hsivonen> hmm. I don't like it that the W3C wants to use copyright to prevent spec branching
  168. # [10:28] <annevk> me neither
  169. # [10:28] <annevk> or for test suite branching for that matter
  170. # [10:28] <annevk> it's silly
  171. # [10:28] <hsivonen> the freedom to fork a Free Software project is an important deterrent against the main project going crazy
  172. # [10:28] <hsivonen> should be likewise for specs
  173. # [10:29] <Lachy> I'm glad that's the case for the WHATWG's HTML5 spec
  174. # [10:29] <annevk> maybe they realize they're going crazy in some twisted way
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  178. # [10:51] <Lachy> Hixie, how do you suggest resolving the hostile-NSResovler issue, if Anne's suggestion is no good?
  179. # [10:57] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'm not Hixie, but it seems to me that the way to deal with NSResolver side effects in an interoperable way is to spec when exactly NSResolver is called into
  180. # [10:58] <annevk> no, we don't want to go there
  181. # [10:59] <annevk> that would not allow optimizations
  182. # [10:59] <hsivonen> hmm. how about requiring the script to push a mapping hash table to the browser ahead of time so that no NSResolver is needed?
  183. # [10:59] <annevk> *[foo|x]:not([foo|x]) for instance
  184. # [11:00] <hsivonen> annevk: you could put the optimization into the spec itself
  185. # [11:00] <Lachy> that's difficult
  186. # [11:00] <Lachy> what if someone finds an even better optimisation later, and the spec would then prevent them from implementing it
  187. # [11:01] <annevk> it would constrain implementations and makes it harder to introduce new selectors
  188. # [11:01] <hsivonen> is there a reason why prefix resolution needs to be dynamic instead of a static mapping that is given the the browser at the time of the API call?
  189. # [11:02] <Lachy> hsivonen, I think it was because the resolver was based upon the design of the XPathNSResolver
  190. # [11:03] <hsivonen> annevk: would implementation be constrained too much if implementation were required to
  191. # [11:03] <hsivonen> 1) parse the selector
  192. # [11:03] <Lachy> crap. meeting time :-(
  193. # [11:03] <hsivonen> 2) resolve each prefix from left to right exactly once
  194. # [11:03] <hsivonen> 3) run the selector
  195. # [11:03] <hsivonen> ?
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  197. # [11:04] <annevk> for the case I gave above you don't need to resolve the prefix in theory
  198. # [11:04] <hsivonen> annevk: ah right. but are such pathological edge cases worth optimizing
  199. # [11:05] <hsivonen> annevk: they don't serve a useful purpose for authors
  200. # [11:05] <annevk> people say yes
  201. # [11:05] <annevk> i'm not sure
  202. # [11:05] <annevk> (people being bjoern and hixie, so maybe...)
  203. # [11:05] <Philip`> :somenewfeature(foo|x) /* CSS4 browsers need to resolve this prefix, but CSS3 browsers can't know they're meant to */
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  205. # [11:05] <annevk> that would not parse Philip`
  206. # [11:06] <annevk> and throw a SYNTAX_ERR
  207. # [11:06] <Philip`> Ah
  208. # [11:10] <hsivonen> as far as I can tell, this problem is mostly the same problem that was pointed out when Dave Raggett's XForms Transitional was discussed.
  209. # [11:11] <hsivonen> and really the way to make sure that the side effects are the same in all browsers is to clamp down what the calls to the code with the potential side effects are
  210. # [11:11] <annevk> no
  211. # [11:12] <hsivonen> no?
  212. # [11:12] <annevk> the issues is not about all browsers doing the same
  213. # [11:12] <annevk> it doesn't have to be fully deterministic
  214. # [11:12] <hsivonen> oh. what is it then?
  215. # [11:12] <annevk> the issue is more what to do in the case that the authors makes a NSResolver that halts the browser in some way
  216. # [11:13] <hsivonen> how has that issue been solved for treewalker node filters?
  217. # [11:13] <annevk> i don't think it has been
  218. # [11:14] <Dashiva> Well, how would halting the browser in a NSResolver be any different from halting the browser otherwise?
  219. # [11:14] <hsivonen> Gecko running scripts in the UI thread is an issue
  220. # [11:14] <Lachy> for the case of a hanging NSResolver, I assumed that would be dealt with the same way all hanging scripts in the browser, by eventually timing out and halting execution completely
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  222. # [11:15] <hsivonen> bad scripts would be less harmful if each browsing context ran its layout and scripts on a private thread
  223. # [11:16] <annevk> you don't need threading for that
  224. # [11:17] * Philip` wonders what happens if you use "yield" in an NSResolver
  225. # [11:17] <hsivonen> annevk: without threading you need code to reach a timeout checkpoint often enough
  226. # [11:17] <Lachy> what does yield do?
  227. # [11:18] <Philip`> Oh, actually, I suppose it wouldn't do anything very interesting at all
  228. # [11:18] <Dashiva> It returns, but preserves internal state for the next call
  229. # [11:18] <Philip`> Lachy: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/New_in_JavaScript_1.7#Generators_and_iterators
  230. # [11:21] <Philip`> I was thinking of something that preserves more than one stack frame, but that doesn't exist in JS so that's okay
  231. # [11:21] <annevk> hsivonen, code gets icky, yeah
  232. # [11:25] <Philip`> Even if you run code in separate threads, you need a way to cleanly terminate a thread when the user's bored with it sitting at 100% CPU, which makes code a bit icky too
  233. # [11:26] <Philip`> Except actually that's maybe only a tiny bit and you wouldn't even notice it
  234. # [11:32] <hsivonen> Philip`: well, yeah, you'd need a mechanism that makes sure that the killed thread isn't holding any monitors/semaphores/etc. that would be left in an inconsistent state
  235. # [11:32] <annevk> grmbl, my "we can't" argument is a real argument why we can't do </br> magic, but the overall reason is of course that it's silly and would be quite difficult, performance hit, etc.
  236. # [11:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: which isn't exactly trivial unless there are only a couple well-defined places where locking can happen
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  238. # [11:34] <hsivonen> (BTW, this is the reason I haven't implemented Hixie's suggestion to limit the time a validation transaction is allowed to take instead of limiting the number of bytes Validator.nu is willing to ingest)
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  242. # [11:54] <Lachy> Hmm. Jonas' suggestion to mention the hanging nsresolver case in the security section is a good idea... Oh, wait. It already is!
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  252. # [13:25] <hsivonen> fwiw, in case anyone cares about arguing against a new HTTP verb for the ping feature: AJP 1.3 seems to assume a closed list of HTTP verbs, so minting a new one would have a non-trivial cost
  253. # [13:27] <Lachy> what's AJP?
  254. # [13:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: it's a protocol that Apache speaks with Java servlet containers
  255. # [13:29] <Lachy> ok, so it's something that would potentially be used on a server for dealing with pings.
  256. # [13:30] <Lachy> however, if you consider that adding a new HTTP verb can't be that much effort, and that any system to be set up for handling pings in the future could easily upgrade. It doesn't require all servers to be upgraded.
  257. # [13:30] <Lachy> the bigger problem with ping is getting client support
  258. # [13:31] <hsivonen> Lachy: unless I'm misreading the source of an AJP 1.3 implementation, it seems to me that AJP 1.3 communicates the HTTP verb as a single byte whose meaning has to be agreed to by both ends of the AJP pipe
  259. # [13:31] <Lachy> oh, in that case, it might be a little more difficult
  260. # [13:32] <Philip`> It just needs a single centralised service which understands the PING requests, and then every web developer can make use of that service to collect data and to retrieve summaries and reports
  261. # [13:32] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'm not saying it is good design. I'm just saying that there's a common deployment setup with which going beyond the WebDAV set of verbs is going to be expensive
  262. # [13:32] <Philip`> It's pointless for people to run the ping-processing software on their own servers
  263. # [13:35] <Lachy> Philip`, I don't think it's entirely pointless, but having a single centralised service might work for some system
  264. # [13:36] <Lachy> e.g. google analytics, which currently uses JS to notify the google server of certain events, could make use of ping in that way
  265. # [13:38] <hsivonen> http://tomcat.apache.org/connectors-doc/ajp/ajpv13a.html#method
  266. # [13:39] <annevk> given that webdav is still expanding i assume they'll eventually reconsider their api
  267. # [13:39] <hsivonen> note that is says "Later version of ajp13, when used with mod_jk2, will transport additional methods, even if they are not in this list." but mod_jk2 is dead and mod_jk is what people are supposed to be using again
  268. # [13:41] <hsivonen> annevk: perhaps. I'm just pointing out that considering the requirements Hixie had for the access-control implementability, a new HTTP verb is on a new level of difficulty
  269. # [13:42] <hsivonen> fwiw, the mechanism for encoding headers in AJP13 (I guess it's really 13 and not 1.3) is extensible
  270. # [13:42] <hsivonen> I think the failure to use the same mechanism for the verb is a design bug, but software has shipped
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  274. # [14:26] * Lfe_ is now known as Lfe
  275. # [14:33] <annevk> when do we get the ALA article about version targeting being all wrong?
  276. # [14:33] <annevk> or is it supposed to be one-sided?
  277. # [14:38] <itpastorn> How would you go about changing jeffrey Z's mind?
  278. # [14:39] <Philip`> annevk: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/theyshootbrowsers sounds non-positive about it
  279. # [14:40] <annevk> itpastorn, i'd put him on the QA team of non-IE browser for a year or two
  280. # [14:40] <annevk> Philip`, I was going by the summary on zeldman.com
  281. # [14:40] <Philip`> itpastorn: Hypnosis
  282. # [14:40] <Philip`> (since that requires less effort than thinking of logical arguments)
  283. # [14:45] <itpastorn> OK, so maybe we will get JZ and Eric Meyer to change their minds. Now, how would we get the MSIE team onboard? I seriously can't think of any way to change their minds.
  284. # [14:46] <itpastorn> As I see it now it is an issue of damage control
  285. # [14:46] <Philip`> Change their minds before releasing IE8?
  286. # [14:47] <Philip`> (Perhaps it's more possible to make their IE8 experience cause them to reconsider for IE9)
  287. # [14:47] <Philip`> ((like how IE7 made them reconsider IE8))
  288. # [14:48] <itpastorn> Yes, the ball-and-chain effect of supporting multiple rendering modes will sooner or later take its toll
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  291. # [15:35] <hsivonen> annevk: presumable setting a header ahead of GET could be specified to trigger pre-flight?
  292. # [15:35] <hsivonen> s/ble/bly/
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  296. # [15:47] <annevk> hsivonen, that's quite a neat idea
  297. # [16:00] <annevk> hsivonen, I put it on the list
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  299. # [16:25] <zcorpan> annevk: do you know if there are any test cases for cssom .styleSheets in combination with @import?
  300. # [16:26] <annevk> i thought .styleSheets was not supposed to be populated with that
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  302. # [16:29] <annevk> zcorpan, I don't really understand what you're asking for
  303. # [16:31] <zcorpan> sorry, i meant .styleSheet (on CSSImportRule)
  304. # [16:32] <annevk> no, feel free to add to http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/cssom/
  305. # [16:32] <zcorpan> ok
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  308. # [16:36] <zcorpan> no directory structure?
  309. # [16:36] <annevk> feel free to do that for your tests
  310. # [16:37] <annevk> i was making tests to see how I should spec stuff and needed a place to dump them
  311. # [16:43] <zcorpan> ok
  312. # [16:43] <annevk> i'm not sure if it was the right approach
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  320. # [17:19] <zcorpan> annevk: is .ownerNode null for imported style sheets?
  321. # [17:33] <annevk> yes
  322. # [17:39] <zcorpan> thanks
  323. # [17:39] <zcorpan> (that was not super clear to me reading the spec)
  324. # [17:42] <annevk> suggestions welcome
  325. # [17:42] <annevk> i'm not really sure how to phrase the conformance stuff for all that yet
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  327. # [17:53] <zcorpan> can it be null in other cases?
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  329. # [18:04] <annevk> HTTP Link:
  330. # [18:04] <annevk> <meta http-equiv=link> if we're keeping that
  331. # [18:05] <annevk> sorry
  332. # [18:05] <annevk> in the <meta> case it would not be null, duh
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  334. # [18:06] <Philip`> It wouldn't be especially equiv to HTTP if it differed in that way
  335. # [18:07] <annevk> it's just a name
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  348. # [19:44] <Hixie> i tried getting an account and it failed
  349. # [19:44] <Hixie> if anyone has a wordpress.com account
  350. # [19:44] <Hixie> it would be cool to ask this guy what it is he would actually like:
  351. # [19:44] <Hixie> http://mrpointy.wordpress.com/2008/02/19/ding-dong-the-frame-is-dead/
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  355. # [19:55] <gsnedders> wow. I can actually remember my user/pass combo. on just the second attempt
  356. # [19:56] <gsnedders> Hixie: + normal invitation to participate? :P
  357. # [19:59] <gsnedders> comment in moderation queue
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  359. # [20:05] * gavin__ is now known as gavin
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  363. # [20:08] <Hixie> gsnedders: sure
  364. # [20:09] <gsnedders> dbaron: is there anything anywhere online about your table/desk based implementation of HTML?
  365. # [20:09] <gsnedders> I couldn't find anything googling for it
  366. # [20:09] <dbaron> no
  367. # [20:09] <dbaron> not that I know of, anyway
  368. # [20:10] <gsnedders> well, there are logs of here, but that isn't an overly convincing place to cite :)
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  376. # [20:56] <gsnedders> Hixie: is there anything in acid3 that assures a tree DOM is being used, and not something like IE's?
  377. # [20:58] <Hixie> no, because html4 doesn't define how you handle the parse errors that get you a non-tree DOM
  378. # [21:01] <gsnedders> ergh.
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  390. # [21:39] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  391. # [21:41] * gsnedders looks through the X-UA-Compatible comments and sighs
  392. # [21:41] <gsnedders> "I code all my sites to be xhtml strict and I expect a browser to render them that way" — yes, because "xhtml strict" specifies rendering
  393. # [21:56] <Hixie> such comments indicate an incomplete understanding of the web, but their sentiment is well placed and i agree with it
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  396. # [22:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: btw, did you see my results from validating the Happy Cog portfolio?
  397. # [22:03] <Hixie> yeah, briefly. it ended up in one of my folders.
  398. # [22:03] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.180)
  399. # [22:04] <hsivonen> ok
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  422. # [23:38] <Hixie> Philip`: do you have any useful information on the cite="" attribute of q and blockquote elements?
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  425. # [23:45] <Philip`> Hixie: Only that it's quite rare
  426. # [23:45] <Philip`> In 16K pages, I found it only on http://www.kentuckyinjurylawblog.com
  427. # [23:46] <Philip`> and on another 8K (at http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/attr/cite ) I didn't find it at all
  428. # [23:47] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/tag/q - hmm, nobody uses <q> anyway
  429. # [23:47] <Hixie> so on your 16k pages, that's 100% of uses used it correctly! :-)
  430. # [23:47] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/tag/blockquote - blockquote much more popular, but very rarely any attributes
  431. # [23:49] <Dashiva> Smells like indentation :)
  432. # [23:49] <Hixie> yeah
  433. # [23:51] <annevk> what's that like, the smell of presentational markup?
  434. # [23:52] <annevk> rather good looking, but crappy food
  435. # [23:53] <roc> I've never used blockquote with attributes, but always for quotations. Is that so wrong?
  436. # [23:53] <Hixie> no, that's fine
  437. # [23:55] * svl has cite attributes automatically created in quoted replies on a message board system he wrote.
  438. # [23:58] * jgraham wonders if <a rel="cite"> would generally be better than @cite
  439. # Session Close: Wed Feb 20 00:00:00 2008

The end :)