/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Feb 23 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  16. # [00:52] <Hixie> csarven-: it says in the spec, right at the top of each element definition
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  33. # [01:35] <annevk> I don't get rsayre
  34. # [01:35] <annevk> "Disagree. If they are valuable, they will get done by someone."
  35. # [01:36] <annevk> DOM Level 0 and all is very useful, yet nobody did anything with it for years
  36. # [01:36] <annevk> where is evidence that valuable stuff does get documented?
  37. # [01:36] <SadEagle> well, who would document it, and why?
  38. # [01:40] <jgraham> I think there is plenty of evidence of valuable stuff that is not getting done e.g. the XUL-like box model in CSS which, AFAIK, has a stagnant spec
  39. # [01:41] <SadEagle> Spec writing is hard.. And DOM0 also requires reverse-engineering
  40. # [01:41] <annevk> I agree, so I wonder why he states that valuable stuff will get specified somehow where there's plenty of evidence to the contrary
  41. # [01:43] * jgraham wonders if it's worthwhile to reply
  42. # [01:45] <SadEagle> plus, there is a big difference between spec existing and it being sufficiently precise to help creation of interoperable implementations.
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  58. # [03:21] <sayrer> annevk, just saying that the really valuable stuff will get done
  59. # [03:21] <sayrer> annevk, lots of standards organizations think they are doing valuable work
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  61. # [03:22] <sayrer> the WHATWG should not pretend it is immune to this hazard
  62. # [03:25] <sayrer> I should rephrase. I meant lots of standards organizations think everything they do is valuable.
  63. # [03:26] <sayrer> I certainly think some WHATWG work is valuable and high quality
  64. # [03:26] <sayrer> and I am not against all new features. just the ones that are big and distracting, or superfluous
  65. # [03:27] <sayrer> it doesn't seem like the WHATWG has a good way to propose cutting things, which is worrying
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  74. # [04:27] <Hixie> sayrer is gone, but for what it's worth, the way to get rid of things is twofold
  75. # [04:27] <Hixie> one way is to just ask for it to be removed. We've dropped quite a lot of stuff that way.
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  77. # [04:27] <Hixie> Another way is that when the spec reaches near-zero major feedback, i do a run through and cut stuff out. we did this with wf2, for instance, and cut a bunch of crap out.
  78. # [04:28] <Hixie> and another way, of course, is if no browsers implement it, it drops pretty much automatically..
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  80. # [04:29] <Hixie> it should be noted that i recently proposed getting rid of <event-source>, and people screamed (with good arguments to back up their screams)
  81. # [04:29] <Hixie> i am also planning on dropping the <dfn> cross-ref crap
  82. # [04:29] <Hixie> no-one has screamed about that :-)
  83. # [04:29] <Hixie> teh data templates and repetition blocks stuff is going to go out too
  84. # [04:30] <Hixie> (those three areas are marked up in the spec as being considered for removal)
  85. # [04:39] <csarven> Hixie Is <dfn> even necessary?
  86. # [04:40] <Hixie> the element, or the cross-ref feature of it?
  87. # [04:41] <csarven> The element. If the cross-ref exists I can see some use for it (even though it is a little redundant).
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  89. # [04:42] <Hixie> the element is used correctly by many people. the spec itself uses it a lot.
  90. # [04:43] <csarven> Don't most of those cases contain <abbr> within?
  91. # [04:45] <Hixie> no
  92. # [04:45] <Hixie> i don't know that <abbr> is used at all in the spec, in fact
  93. # [04:47] <csarven> Okay, I see how the spec makes a pretty good use of it.
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  95. # [06:02] <Hixie> heh, he closed comments on his blog
  96. # [06:02] <Hixie> http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2008/02/21/thoughts-on-whatwg/#comment-7671
  97. # [06:26] <csarven> Hixie I agree with your "Progress on the Web is a higher priority than spec size idealism."
  98. # [06:29] <csarven> Is there supposed to be a due date and max size for the spec? Heh. Better do it properly and cover what needs to be covered for today instead of releasing a recommendation every few years or something.
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  107. # [08:29] <sayrer> Hixie, the issue is closed, right?
  108. # [08:29] <sayrer> I mean, you sounded like you closed it
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  114. # [09:51] <Hixie> like i said in #mozilla, i wasn't trying to close the issue, i was just saying i don't know what you want us to do
  115. # [09:51] <Hixie> or #developers, or wherever it was
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  117. # [09:53] <Hixie> i'd encourage you to send e-mail to the whatwg list with concrete things i can do to fix the issues you're seeing
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  121. # [10:07] * Hixie notices that on the list of things sayrer wanted removed includes a number of DOM Level 0 things, despite the fact that he later said he wanted us to focus only on DOM Level 0
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  124. # [10:22] <jruderman__> what does "DOM Level 0" mean to you?
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  140. # [12:56] <annevk> plenty of spam on the forums again
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  170. # [18:11] <zcorpan> annevk: spam removed, please let me know if i missed something
  171. # [18:12] <annevk> looks fine
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  182. # [21:10] <Hixie> jruderman__: well, things like window.alert(), for one... and setTimeout...
  183. # [21:11] <annevk> window in general...
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  186. # [21:13] <Hixie> yeah but rsayrer specifically said he wanted to drop window.alert() and window.setTimeout() despite them being on his list of things to keep
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  204. # [22:30] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.54.100.getinternet.no)
  205. # [22:31] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  206. # [22:31] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  207. # [22:34] * Joins: grimeboy (n=grimboy@78-105-162-250.zone3.bethere.co.uk)
  208. # [22:49] * Quits: grimboy (n=grimboy@78-105-162-250.zone3.bethere.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  209. # [23:10] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@adsl-63-200-129-22.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  210. # [23:48] * gsnedders wonders why on earth Prince is inserting a pagebreak where page-break-after: avoid; and doing so wouldn't stop any other page-break from being satisfied
  211. # [23:50] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@81-233-18-73-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  212. # Session Close: Sun Feb 24 00:00:01 2008

The end :)