/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-02-25 / end

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  41. # [09:23] <hsivonen> http://www.webstandards.org/2008/02/24/wasp-round-table-ie8s-default-version-targeting-behavior/
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  45. # [09:35] <roc> when is MS going to explain exactly what the mode switch does? Sounds like it affects the DOM APIs but I haven't seen anything explicitly saying that
  46. # [09:41] <hsivonen> I don't like the way ALA and WaSP are the main PR channels for communicating about this.
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  49. # [10:05] <roc> yeah
  50. # [10:05] <roc> they're obviously being told things under NDA
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  58. # [10:44] <Dashiva> roc: Non-disagreement agreement? :P
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  60. # [10:46] <annevk> man, where are all the tough questions in those transcripts
  61. # [10:46] <annevk> yay, we all agree, lets have beer
  62. # [10:50] <jruderman> Dashiva++
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  75. # [12:07] <hsivonen> microformats have arrived. RDFa Syntax introduces itself by contrasting itself with microformats: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-rdfa-syntax-20080221/
  76. # [12:11] <annevk> makes sense i guess, lots of people heard of microformats
  77. # [12:13] <hsivonen> reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect
  78. # [12:15] <hsivonen> of course, RDFa is fatally flawed because it doesn't work with HTML
  79. # [12:16] <annevk> it sort of does with simple dom traversal
  80. # [12:16] <Philip`> Bananas don't work with HTML either, but they still seem pretty popular, just in different problem domains :-)
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  82. # [12:16] <annevk> it's just qnames in attribute values and magic xmlns attributes after all
  83. # [12:17] <hsivonen> annevk: true
  84. # [12:17] <hsivonen> still, it's sad that Creative Commons is advancing this complexity when they should endeavor to make things simple
  85. # [12:19] <hsivonen> I still don't know if http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/02/09/Mashups-Smashups#c1202810109 was meant as a joke or as a serious question
  86. # [12:20] <annevk> prolly serious...
  87. # [12:20] <annevk> given the second sentence
  88. # [12:22] <hsivonen> btw, when Lessig uses CC-licensed photos off the Web in his presentations, he doesn't include the license URI...
  89. # [12:24] <hsivonen> hmm. it's 2008 and XHTML+RDFa document conformance deals with DTDs
  90. # [12:24] <hsivonen> sad
  91. # [12:28] <mpt> That appears to be an example of the "Appeal to the current year" logical fallacy :-)
  92. # [12:29] <hsivonen> mpt: true.
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  95. # [12:31] <annevk> it's still sad
  96. # [12:31] <annevk> :p
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  104. # [13:23] <Philip`> http://www.glendathegood.com/wasp/transcript.html - "The version vector plan right now, have the version vector [for conditional comments] and the UA string reflect the real version of IE8 and see what compatibility that turn out to be." - hmm, that would break things with "lte IE7" like http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0189.html
  105. # [13:24] <annevk> in effect they still require pages to update sniffing, etc.
  106. # [13:25] <Philip`> Only pages which currently do sniffing, which is a subset of the pages that depend on IE6/7 bugs/features
  107. # [13:26] <Camaban> there's a suggestion there to make strict doctypes trigger 'ie8 mode' isn't there?
  108. # [13:26] <Camaban> (near the end)
  109. # [13:27] <Philip`> There was, but they didn't have any data about how common that was in practice
  110. # [13:28] <Camaban> yeah, a suggestion to look into more, rather than a "lets do it" suggestion
  111. # [13:28] <Philip`> (http://philip.html5.org/data/doctypes-lc.txt has data)
  112. # [13:29] <annevk> it's not clear how large the data set is and how many sites did not have a doctype
  113. # [13:30] <Philip`> annevk: It has a non-hyper link to a version with more detail
  114. # [13:30] <Philip`> It doesn't say how many don't have a doctype, since I didn't measure that, but I'll say it's 50% based on other data from the same source
  115. # [13:31] <Camaban> so a few hundred strict, standards mode triggering doctypes, compared to 6000 or so transitional, standards and quirks
  116. # [13:31] <Camaban> at a quick glance
  117. # [13:51] <Philip`> Would <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"> be valid? (I don't see anybody using it without the SYSTEM URI)
  118. # [13:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: no
  119. # [13:56] <hsivonen> XML requires a system id
  120. # [13:56] <Philip`> Okay, thanks
  121. # [14:24] <zcorpan_> Philip`: do those doctypes get the same mode using the html5 algorithm? or rather, do you know (or can easily find out) which don't?
  122. # [14:25] <zcorpan_> just glancing i see html 4.0 transitional with SI
  123. # [14:26] <zcorpan_> <!doctype html public "-//"aol hometown//html 3.0 transitional//en">
  124. # [14:26] <Philip`> zcorpan_: They won't all be the same, but I haven't tried to work out which ones will differ
  125. # [14:27] <zcorpan_> <!doctype htm public "-//w3c//dtd htm 4.0 transitional//en">
  126. # [14:27] <zcorpan_> 1 - <!doctype html public "-//"aol hometown//html 3.0 transitional//de">
  127. # [14:27] <zcorpan_> 1 - <!doctype html public "-//"aol hometown//html 3.0 transitional//fr">
  128. # [14:27] <Philip`> <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd xhtml 1.0 strict//en" "http://www.w3.org/tr/xhtml2/dtd/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
  129. # [14:28] <zcorpan_> that one would get standards mode per html5 too, right?
  130. # [14:29] <zcorpan_> i wonder if the "2" was a typo or deliberate
  131. # [14:30] <Philip`> I believe that'd be HTML5 standards
  132. # [14:30] <zcorpan_> <!doctype html public "-//ietf//dtd html strict level 2//en">
  133. # [14:30] <Philip`> Perhaps the most significant difference is that IE treats ill-formed doctypes as standards, whereas HTML5 treats them as quirks
  134. # [14:30] <Philip`> (like in that AOL Hometown case)
  135. # [14:32] <Philip`> or maybe the most significant difference is that IE treats many typoed doctypes as quirks (if they still contain a blacklisted substring), whereas HTML5 treats them as standards
  136. # [14:35] <zcorpan_> yes, i think changing the last two characters to the locale of the page is not that uncommon
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  138. # [14:56] * Philip` tries doing a comparison against HTML5
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  155. # [17:11] <Philip`> Hmm, looks like someone deleted cnn.com from dmoz.org
  156. # [17:12] <Philip`> There used to be 223658 of it, but now there's only 3156
  157. # [17:13] <Philip`> There's 4552771 URIs spread over 2982776 domains, and the top domain is www.geocities.com with 80118
  158. # [17:22] <Philip`> (Top 1% of domains have 24% of URIs; top 10% have 36%)
  159. # [17:25] <Philip`> (I do like how I can do "sort -R four-point-five-million-line-text-file" and not need to even begin to worry about how much RAM it's using)
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  181. # [19:19] <annevk> peoples: http://www.w3.org/TR/cssom-view/ & http://www.w3.org/TR/XMLHttpRequest2/
  182. # [19:22] <aroben> annevk: neat
  183. # [19:24] <aroben> annevk: how many specs are you editing now?
  184. # [19:26] <annevk> apart from informal HTML drafts 5 I think (plus Selectors API which Lachlan is editing now)
  185. # [19:26] <Dashiva> He's probably aiming for 5 > 2 :)
  186. # [19:26] <annevk> heh
  187. # [19:26] <annevk> the CSSOM stuff isn't getting enough attention though as it requires a lot of research I haven't found time for
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  194. # [20:26] <Hixie> annevk: pity someone edited the spec for you
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  196. # [20:37] <Hixie> holy crap
  197. # [20:37] <Hixie> RDFa has gotten BIGGER since i last looked
  198. # [20:37] <Hixie> talk about serious second-system effect
  199. # [20:37] <Hixie> jesus
  200. # [20:41] <takkaria> I thought rdfa was meant to be small and compact
  201. # [20:42] <Hixie> i still don't understand how RDFa is supposed to interact with, e.g., <title>
  202. # [20:43] <Hixie> if an RDFa bit says the document title is X, and <title> says the document title is Y, then... what?
  203. # [20:43] * SadEagle keeps Hixie away from ES4 :-)
  204. # [20:44] <Hixie> ES4 has one gigantic problem right now
  205. # [20:44] <Hixie> and it's not clear to me anyone on the ES4 group is striving to fix it
  206. # [20:44] <Hixie> but since the RI is the only spec, it's not clear to me how to proceed
  207. # [20:44] <SadEagle> do you mean the lack of spec, or the hyper second-system syndrome?
  208. # [20:44] <Hixie> neither
  209. # [20:45] <Hixie> ES4 scripts have to explicitly opt-in to being processed as ES4 instead of ES3, but the opt-in can only be out-of-band (e.g. in <script type=""> attributes) which doesn't work for a whole series of use cases
  210. # [20:46] <Hixie> e.g. it doesn't work as a way to upgrade existing deployed <script> blocks doing third-party includes, it doesn't work for HTML event handler attributes, it doesn't work when you don't know what type your script will be, etc
  211. # [20:46] <Hixie> it also means you need separate scripts for ES4 and ES3
  212. # [20:47] <Hixie> this is unlike, e.g., HTML and CSS, both of which have backwards-compatible mechanisms
  213. # [20:48] <SadEagle> the language has a lot of complexity to be backwards compatible when ES3 is handled as ES4, though.
  214. # [20:48] <SadEagle> Partly for migration, of course
  215. # [20:49] <SadEagle> One can do this sort of thing in-band, though, but it'll be ugly.
  216. # [20:50] <Hixie> ugly is better than fatally flawed :-)
  217. # [20:51] <SadEagle> things like cross-interpreter calls would be a total mess, though.
  218. # [20:51] <hsivonen> is there a reason for not going all the way so that a browser could run all ES3 scripts as ES4 scripts?
  219. # [20:51] <Hixie> so have one interpreter
  220. # [20:51] <Philip`> When JavaScript reserved all the Java keywords, was that intended for future extensibility, or was it just for compatibility between Java and JS (so you wouldn't accidentally make variables you couldn't talk about in the other language) or something else?
  221. # [20:52] <Hixie> Philip`: everyone ignored that requirement, so it's moot, sadly
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  224. # [20:52] * hsivonen notes that v.nu doesn't ignore the reserved word list
  225. # [20:53] <SadEagle> it's actually not entirely ignored, but semi-weird
  226. # [20:53] <hsivonen> (in callback name checking)
  227. # [20:55] <Philip`> On the subject of JS, what syntax feature allows <a onclick="javascript: alert('hello')"> (and equivalently <a onclick="vbscript: alert('hello')"> etc)?
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  229. # [20:59] <annevk> Hixie, if you mean the HTML5 reference, it's still part of XMLHttpRequest Level 2... guess Bert removed it from the CSSOM View Module or something
  230. # [20:59] <Hixie> man, i'd be pissed if someone did that to my spec
  231. # [21:00] <Hixie> Philip`: goto labels, no?
  232. # [21:00] <annevk> I don't feel too strongly about references at this point
  233. # [21:00] <SadEagle> heh, good point Hixie
  234. # [21:01] <Hixie> annevk: for me it's not about references, it's about someone changing something i'd have explicitly done
  235. # [21:01] <Hixie> but anyway
  236. # [21:02] <Philip`> Hixie: JS doesn't have goto
  237. # [21:02] <Hixie> oh
  238. # [21:02] <Philip`> so goto labels don't seem an entirely sensible thing to have
  239. # [21:02] <Hixie> well
  240. # [21:02] <Hixie> i seem to recall there was some sort of label thing
  241. # [21:02] <Philip`> Then again, it does have the goto reserved word despite not having goto
  242. # [21:03] <Philip`> so it's not an entirely sensible language
  243. # [21:03] <annevk> Hixie, true
  244. # [21:04] <SadEagle> Philip`: they're not goto labels, they're breka/continue labels.
  245. # [21:06] <Philip`> SadEagle: Oh, I didn't know JS had that
  246. # [21:06] <Philip`> (but some testing indicates that it does)
  247. # [21:07] <SadEagle> you can actually break a non-loop, too.
  248. # [21:07] <SadEagle> (with a labeled break, that is)
  249. # [21:08] <Philip`> By "non-loop", do you mean something like "javascript: { break javascript; }"?
  250. # [21:08] <SadEagle> yep.
  251. # [21:09] * Philip` wonders why he had never noticed this feature
  252. # [21:09] <Philip`> (I knew Java did that, but not JS)
  253. # [21:11] <hsivonen> does java have non-loop break labels?
  254. # [21:13] <hsivonen> whoa! it indeed does.
  255. # [21:13] <Philip`> hsivonen: Eclipse doesn't give squiggly lines when I try that, so I guess so
  256. # [21:13] <hsivonen> I learned something new
  257. # [21:13] <hsivonen> thanks
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  283. # [23:35] <jruderman> the phone meeting about cross-site xmlhttprequest in firefox is starting soon
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  286. # [23:49] <annevk> Hixie, the <title> argument is bogus
  287. # [23:49] <annevk> Hixie, the spec should not be moving <title> around
  288. # [23:49] <Hixie> hm?
  289. # [23:49] <Hixie> even if it shouldn't, <title> is always gonna be PCDATA
  290. # [23:49] <Hixie> or CDATA
  291. # [23:49] <annevk> true
  292. # [23:49] <Hixie> or whatever its parse mode is called
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  294. # [23:52] <annevk> also, what's the case where Opera does better than void?
  295. # [23:53] <annevk> i'm also curious what the use case is for a form control in a header/title
  296. # [23:53] <Hixie> templates
  297. # [23:55] <annevk> hmm, i don't quite get templates either :)
  298. # [23:56] <Hixie> opera seems to do better at least in the case where a <fieldset> is involved
  299. # [23:56] <Hixie> and re your second case, imagine
  300. # [23:57] <annevk> oh, with fieldset... hmm, but that's not the common case as you indicate
  301. # [23:57] <Hixie> <figure> <textarea name="poem"> </textarea> <legend> <input name="author">, <input type=number name="year"> </legend> </figure>
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  303. # [23:57] <annevk> not that it matters much either way
  304. # [23:57] <Hixie> yeah
  305. # [23:57] <Hixie> i didn't mean to say opera was fine :-)
  306. # [23:58] <Lachy> Hixie, you wrote in the figure email: "<label> unfortunately would preclude putting more than one form control in a legend, which would be a weird restriction." - did you mean "control in a *figure*"?
  307. # [23:59] <Hixie> i meant in the legend of the figure
  308. # [23:59] <Hixie> as per my example above
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  310. # Session Close: Tue Feb 26 00:00:00 2008

The end :)